Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by Draccan

Bioware stick to story and the eq / wow script. Good for them and their sales. Judging from this and other forums, the SW name will sell a lot of boxes. But it is not great for the mmorpg industry nor for hte players!

 

 

Why not?

Because innovation will ruin things? :)

I for one am excited, and I think the story arch is a great way to draw players into the game.  It might not appeal to all people, and thats fine, no game will do that.  But the type of player that it appeals to is just the type of player I want to be playing this game with.

Story? I'd rather buy a book if I wished to read and get involved in a story.

Originally posted by Draccan

Tortage was popular because it was well polished but not because of the story. There were huge outcries (HUGE) about the linear aspects to it and that it had to be repeated for people who starts all over.

 

The only aspects of Tortage you had to participate in was the quest to enter the city, and the final quest to leave the island. In total, about 10 to 15 minutes of scripted, linear content. You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

Originally posted by maxomaxo

• Story-based products lead to very narrow gameplay since the automatically militate against open landscapes, freedom of play choice and character development
• Story-based products are games 'played-on-rails' not games 'player-directed'
• Story-based products are not conducive to replayability and variety
• Story-based products mean that long-term play is dependent on new expansion/chapters which must be regularly paid for.

Originally posted by maxomaxo

Most of all:

•  an online story-based product implies a singleplayer game with multiplayer hubs that, for the first time, must be paid for by a monthly rent rather than paid for and owned outright by the player.

Keyword: implies. You're drawing your own conclusions based purely on speculation.

Originally posted by maxomaxo

These are legitimate concerns and this is a legitimate forum in which to voice those concerns.

No, they're not. And this is a discussion forum (keyword: discussion), not a platform for airing irrational rants.

Originally posted by Vrazule

Originally posted by Neanderthal  <cut out to shorten this post> 

 

The significance is that you can shape the story by your decisions.  You can make good and bad choices and suffer the consequences for doing so.  Have you played any of the KOTOR games?  Current games only let you choose to do the quest or not.  You don't get to make choices on how you go about it and there are no consequences for doing it one way or another.

The story in traditional MMOs never changes direction because you decided to be snide with the NPC.  Unless you faction grind, quests don't take your actions into account and slide you toward the good or evil side of the scale.  Sliding to the good or evil side or faction grinding as it is in current games doesn't open up different and unique skills or take away those skills if you slide in the opposite direction.

Just like KOTRO I and II, you feel vested in your character.  It reflects your personality and it shows in game.  Any game can offer you story, but how many offer you any kind of choice within that story?  How many offer stories that change dynamically after your choices, sending you down a different path?  Of course all of these different paths are preset, but you still get to make those choices and live with them.  You can't take them back, you can't go back and grind the opposite faction to take you down that other path.  If you want to experience that other path, you have to re-roll and do things differently.

I don't understand why you guys have such a difficult time seeing the difference and just how much of an immersion factor it really is.  The best part of all is that we get to do this personal story and get leveling XP for it without having to constantly kill 10 frakking rats.  I wouldn't be surprised if you could reach max level or close just by doing your personal story and never having to grind 1000's of mobs to do so.  That alone would make this a revolutionary game, not just evolutionary.

Can I argue with a guy who has a quote from me in his sig?   Thanks, by the way.

I understand what you're saying but I still don't see that it's going to be all that different from games that have come before.  The main difference would be if you can't change your alignment (light or dark) after completing the story.  But after you complete the story I wonder if it will even matter.  If there are new chapters added to the story later I would guess that you could probably shift your character in the other direction in the new chapters.

And, ok, I'm sure that you'll be given different missions depending on the choices you make but I guess that doesn't seem like a very big deal to me.

I don't know, I guess I'm one of those people who doesn't like having someone else write my story for me.  Even if I'm given some path choices within the story that the other person wrote it still isn't my story, it's his story.

Like some other people I get a pretty strong feeling that this is going to be a lot like guild wars except with more multiple choice options along the way.  Maybe that's completely wrong.  Or maybe if it is like guild wars it'll be an improved version of that type of game.

I guess we'll see how it works out.  To answer your question, no I haven't played any of the KOTOR games.  I started one once but lost interest in it before I got very far.  A friend has it now but maybe I'll get it back from him and try it again.

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by maxomaxo

• Story-based products lead to very narrow gameplay since the automatically militate against open landscapes, freedom of play choice and character development
• Story-based products are games 'played-on-rails' not games 'player-directed'
• Story-based products are not conducive to replayability and variety
• Story-based products mean that long-term play is dependent on new expansion/chapters which must be regularly paid for.

• They don't have to. Of course they do. They don't let you leave the story.
• Again, not necessarily true.  You might as well say, 'not necessarily false'.
• See above. Lazy,
• Long-term play for pretty much *any* game is dependent on new content—sooner or later the same 'ole same 'ole gets old. As to whether or not it "must be regularly paid for" is not set in stone.  No. Many games have built in end-games that go out with launch. Are you sayin that with TOR, having bought the game and rented our play hours, we're then going to have to buy the endgame? Ugh. Even a fanboi like you can see that's inimical.

Originally posted by maxomaxo

Most of all:

•  an online story-based product implies a singleplayer game with multiplayer hubs that, for the first time, must be paid for by a monthly rent rather than paid for and owned outright by the player.

Keyword: implies. You're drawing your own conclusions based purely on speculation. So are you. The difference is, mine are drawn from logical conclusions. Yours are drawnj from a slavish worship of a game and company that cares shit about you and everything about the fifteen bucks a month you can wheedle from your mom. Come on, grow a pair.

Originally posted by maxomaxo

These are legitimate concerns and this is a legitimate forum in which to voice those concerns.

No, they're not. And this is a discussion forum (keyword: discussion), not a platform for airing irrational rants.

...Irrational ranter says what now?

 

Stop being so pompous. God knows what kind of a dull little bossyboots you are in real life but this is a free forum for the free discussion of mmo games. Many of us are concerned that a heavily story-based MMO will lead to a limited, linear game. If you can't put up with that fact or discuss it courteously and logically, then GTFO, because you're stinking up the forum.

Originally posted by maxomaxo

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by maxomaxo

• Story-based products lead to very narrow gameplay since the automatically militate against open landscapes, freedom of play choice and character development
• Story-based products are games 'played-on-rails' not games 'player-directed'
• Story-based products are not conducive to replayability and variety
• Story-based products mean that long-term play is dependent on new expansion/chapters which must be regularly paid for.

• They don't have to. Of course they do. They don't let you leave the story. They don't let you leave the story? What does that even mean?
  
• Again, not necessarily true.  You might as well say, 'not necessarily false'. That goes without saying, Einstein. The point being your inference is NOT an absolute.
  
• See above. Lazy, Lazy?
  
• Long-term play for pretty much *any* game is dependent on new content—sooner or later the same 'ole same 'ole gets old. As to whether or not it "must be regularly paid for" is not set in stone.  No. Many games have built in end-games that go out with launch. And? Are you sayin that with TOR, having bought the game and rented our play hours, we're then going to have to buy the endgame? Ugh. Even a fanboi like you can see that's inimical. Is that the best you can do? Really? A juvenile ad hominem and strawman?
  

Originally posted by maxomaxo

Most of all:

•  an online story-based product implies a singleplayer game with multiplayer hubs that, for the first time, must be paid for by a monthly rent rather than paid for and owned outright by the player.

Keyword: implies. You're drawing your own conclusions based purely on speculation. So are you. The difference is, mine are drawn from logical conclusions. Yours are drawnj from a slavish worship of a game and company that cares shit about you and everything about the fifteen bucks a month you can wheedle from your mom. Come on, grow a pair. What conclusions have I drawn or represented here?

Originally posted by maxomaxo

These are legitimate concerns and this is a legitimate forum in which to voice those concerns.

No, they're not. And this is a discussion forum (keyword: discussion), not a platform for airing irrational rants.

...Irrational ranter says what now? Another example of using this forum to voice your 'legitimate' concerns?

 

Stop being so pompous. I don't think "pompous" means what you think it means. Or was that intended as irony?  God knows what kind of a dull little bossyboots you are in real life but this is a free forum for the free discussion of mmo games. Many of us are concerned that a heavily story-based MMO will lead to a limited, linear game. If you can't put up with that fact or discuss it courteously and logically, then GTFO, because you're stinking up the forum. Courteously and logically? Again, I don't think those words mean what you think they mean either. But thanks for the laugh.

I agree with the OP. They are pushing the story element too hard and it's leaving me and probably alot of other people wondering if thats the games main feature. Kinda like WARs main feature was RvR or EVEs is massive sandbox.

You know...I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if bioware are afraid to showcase the games other features like PvP/Crafting because they aren't fully confident the community would like it as much as...the story. Obviously in a Star Wars MMO you can't go wrong with the story. But PvP and Crafting? Seems a bit too hush hush...which would be a smart move to do when you're hyping  your game.

So Bioware, spill the beans already. Or do you got something to hide?

Originally posted by spdkilla

Originally posted by fansede

 Well, heck, if I was a crafty design officer at Bioware I would easily create a server for people like the OP. Just remove all dialouge and options and plop the player down in the game world. They can run around pvp each other, then bop to various areas with mobs waiting for players to level up with and drop loot.

North American server name: SAMEASOTHER MMOS

EU Server Name: DARKFALL

Problem Solved

 

ROFLMAO ...awesome post just awesome funniest thing I have read all day.   I look forward to your next one.

LOL, that quote was great.

The possibility of finally having a great STORY driven MMO is what makes me look forward to SWTOR. Bioware's other games were all based on great stories (Mass effect, Kotor, Kotor2, Baldur's gate, etc). The story telling and gameplay design of Bioware is what makes their games great.

Originally posted by Dynamo112

I agree with the OP. They are pushing the story element too hard and it's leaving me and probably alot of other people wondering if thats the games main feature. Kinda like WARs main feature was RvR or EVEs is massive sandbox.

You know...I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if bioware are afraid to showcase the games other features like PvP/Crafting because they aren't fully confident the community would like it as much as...the story. Obviously in a Star Wars MMO you can't go wrong with the story. But PvP and Crafting? Seems a bit too hush hush...which would be a smart move to do when you're hyping  your game.

So Bioware, spill the beans already. Or do you got something to hide?

I don't know how long you've been following this title, but Bioware most certainly did not start the hype machine.

For literally years, I've seen folks begging and pleading for Bioware to make a KotOR-themed, Star Wars MMO. And at least as many rumors that they were.

For that matter, I've even heard speculation that the only reason they came clean about the development of this game (as soon as they have) was due to overwhelming public demand and persistence.

That said, conservative estimates are the game won't be ready to launch for another two to three years. Honestly, what beyond (very) broad strokes do you expect them to be able to tell us?

Originally posted by catlana

Originally posted by spdkilla

Originally posted by fansede

 Well, heck, if I was a crafty design officer at Bioware I would easily create a server for people like the OP. Just remove all dialouge and options and plop the player down in the game world. They can run around pvp each other, then bop to various areas with mobs waiting for players to level up with and drop loot.

North American server name: SAMEASOTHER MMOS

EU Server Name: DARKFALL

Problem Solved

 

ROFLMAO ...awesome post just awesome funniest thing I have read all day.   I look forward to your next one.

 

LOL, that quote was great.

 

The possibility of finally having a great STORY driven MMO is what makes me look forward to SWTOR. Bioware's other games were all based on great stories (Mass effect, Kotor, Kotor2, Baldur's gate, etc). The story telling and gameplay design of Bioware is what makes their games great.

You know...you can get the same " Interactive Movie Expierence " from 90% of console games nowadays right? Because that's all that trash is over there. Except then you wouldn't have to pay a monthly fee!

*gasp*

Originally posted by catlana

The possibility of finally having a great STORY driven MMO is what makes me look forward to SWTOR. Bioware's other games were all based on great stories (Mass effect, Kotor, Kotor2, Baldur's gate, etc). The story telling and gameplay design of Bioware is what makes their games great.

Not to nitpick, but Bioware had little to nothing to do with Knights of the Old Republic II. That was Obsidian.

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by Dynamo112

I agree with the OP. They are pushing the story element too hard and it's leaving me and probably alot of other people wondering if thats the games main feature. Kinda like WARs main feature was RvR or EVEs is massive sandbox.

You know...I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if bioware are afraid to showcase the games other features like PvP/Crafting because they aren't fully confident the community would like it as much as...the story. Obviously in a Star Wars MMO you can't go wrong with the story. But PvP and Crafting? Seems a bit too hush hush...which would be a smart move to do when you're hyping  your game.

So Bioware, spill the beans already. Or do you got something to hide?

 

I don't know how long you've been following this title, but Bioware most certainly did not start the hype machine.

For literally years, I've seen folks begging and pleading for Bioware to make a KotOR-themed, Star Wars MMO. And at least as many rumors that they were.

For that matter, I've even heard speculation that the only reason they came clean about the development of this game (as soon as they have) was due to overwhelming public demand and persistence.

That said, conservative estimates are the game won't be ready to launch for another two to three years. Honestly, what beyond (very) broad strokes do you expect them to be able to tell us?

Right..but they've given tons of interviews and released alot of information on the game and hardly a peep about any other features about the game other than story. Do you blame me or anyone else for expecting an " Online interactive movie expierence " ?

I thought this was an MMO?

Originally posted by Dynamo112

Right..but they've given tons of interviews and released alot of information on the game and hardly a peep about any other features about the game other than story. Do you blame me or anyone else for expecting an " Online interactive movie expierence " ?

I thought this was an MMO?

Which is it? They've released "alot" of information about the game... or they haven't?

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by Dynamo112

Right..but they've given tons of interviews and released alot of information on the game and hardly a peep about any other features about the game other than story. Do you blame me or anyone else for expecting an " Online interactive movie expierence " ?

I thought this was an MMO?

 

Which is it? They've released "alot" of information about the game... or they haven't?

Oohhhh so they're coming into this thing without a plan?

Reaaaaaaal smooth. Real smooth.

You know typically when developing an MMO  you have a plan as to what features will be in the game and what will be it's main selling points.

So basically what you're proposing it that Bioware is in fact just " Going with the flow ".

Originally posted by Dynamo112 

So basically what you're proposing it that Bioware is in fact just " Going with the flow ".

First, a moment of silence for the poor, grossly misunderstood and egregiously overused word, "fact".

Second of all, no (but nice strawman). What I'm proposing is that Bioware has given the broad strokes of what they intend to include within this title... and that's their prerogative. It's simply not as pedantically exhaustive for the likes of the irrepressibly impatient, such as the OP and yourself.

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by Dynamo112 

So basically what you're proposing it that Bioware is in fact just " Going with the flow ".

 

First, a moment of silence for the poor, grossly misunderstood and egregiously overused word, "fact".

Second of all, no (but nice strawman). What I'm proposing is that Bioware has given the broad strokes of what they intend to include within this title... and that's their prerogative. It's simply not as pedantically exhaustive for the likes of the irrepressibly impatient, such as the OP and yourself.

I'll remain bitter and skeptical on this one until further information is provided. They've had plenty of time and oppurtunities to touch base on other aspects of the game.

It angers me that they would hold back features of the game after the amount of hype that's circulating it. Because if any of these things are sub-par the last thing I would want to see is an enraged star wars community!

Originally posted by Dynamo112

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by Dynamo112 

So basically what you're proposing it that Bioware is in fact just " Going with the flow ".

 

First, a moment of silence for the poor, grossly misunderstood and egregiously overused word, "fact".

Second of all, no (but nice strawman). What I'm proposing is that Bioware has given the broad strokes of what they intend to include within this title... and that's their prerogative. It's simply not as pedantically exhaustive for the likes of the irrepressibly impatient, such as the OP and yourself.

 

I'll remain bitter and skeptical on this one until further information is provided. They've had plenty of time and oppurtunities to touch base on other aspects of the game.

It angers me that they would hold back features of the game after the amount of hype that's circulating it. Because if any of these things are sub-par the last thing I would want to see is an enraged star wars community!

I understand that sentiment. However, you have to look at the other side here, too. 

Imagine they release info, info that is not fully cleared. Like, they say "We want to have raids work like this." Or "We want PvP to include this". 

And then during the continued developement, they realize, that's just not gonna work out. This stuff happens. Ideas get thrown out because they turn out to be non-doable, or simply game-breaking. And then, later, they announce that this and that has been changed or scrapped. 

How do you think the community would react then? 

Originally posted by singsofdeath

Originally posted by Dynamo112

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by Dynamo112 

So basically what you're proposing it that Bioware is in fact just " Going with the flow ".

 

First, a moment of silence for the poor, grossly misunderstood and egregiously overused word, "fact".

Second of all, no (but nice strawman). What I'm proposing is that Bioware has given the broad strokes of what they intend to include within this title... and that's their prerogative. It's simply not as pedantically exhaustive for the likes of the irrepressibly impatient, such as the OP and yourself.

 

I'll remain bitter and skeptical on this one until further information is provided. They've had plenty of time and oppurtunities to touch base on other aspects of the game.

It angers me that they would hold back features of the game after the amount of hype that's circulating it. Because if any of these things are sub-par the last thing I would want to see is an enraged star wars community!

I understand that sentiment. However, you have to look at the other side here, too. 

 

Imagine they release info, info that is not fully cleared. Like, they say "We want to have raids work like this." Or "We want PvP to include this". 

 

And then during the continued developement, they realize, that's just not gonna work out. This stuff happens. Ideas get thrown out because they turn out to be non-doable, or simply game-breaking. And then, later, they announce that this and that has been changed or scrapped. 

 

How do you think the community would react then? 

They are also trying to make a MMO that's not been done in terms of what they are doing, They wouldn't want any of that to get out a good year or two before they even release for other companies to use their ideas.
(We all know who takes ideas and polishes them)

Originally posted by Draccan

Weird post. You pretty much agree with most of what I said.

I too think Tortage was the best part of AoC but also not a part I want for a full game. It was polished, that is why it was liked. But the forums were FILLED with people crying over Tortage was too linear..

So don't give me that - I followed this forum, the beta forums and the official forums - and the concensus wasn't positive... Don't twist facts here! Thanks!!

Can you see where you went wrong?

Never trust any forums to give an unbiased and balanced majority view on anything.

Of course, that doesn't prove you wrong; just that your "evidence" is anecdotal and can't be proven.. but that's ok 'cos so is mine. The point can't be proven either way, 'cos there's been no data gathered on the subect.

Rorschach mode on

hurm... so many pages.... so much arguing...

solution simple: do away with pete. enjoy story.

I was @ E3 and I must say I seen SW:TOR  and it  got my money, going to be pure awesome.

Originally posted by sinjin

I was @ E3 and I must say I seen SW:TOR  and it  got my money, going to be pure awesome.

Would you mind giving us a few more details?  What exactly were you able to see?  What was it that sold you on the game?

Originally posted by Dynamo112

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by Dynamo112 

So basically what you're proposing it that Bioware is in fact just " Going with the flow ".

 

First, a moment of silence for the poor, grossly misunderstood and egregiously overused word, "fact".

Second of all, no (but nice strawman). What I'm proposing is that Bioware has given the broad strokes of what they intend to include within this title... and that's their prerogative. It's simply not as pedantically exhaustive for the likes of the irrepressibly impatient, such as the OP and yourself.

 

I'll remain bitter and skeptical on this one until further information is provided. They've had plenty of time and oppurtunities to touch base on other aspects of the game.

It angers me that they would hold back features of the game after the amount of hype that's circulating it. Because if any of these things are sub-par the last thing I would want to see is an enraged star wars community!

Do you seriously expect any developer to tell you any aspect of their game is sub par? If it was sub par wouldn't they just fix it and let you be none the wiser? Your anger is your own issue. They're not responsible for it. The last thing they owe you is an explanation.

I'm interested in story.  KOTOR was really fun largely because of the story that you could take part in.  Having that in massively multiplayer format sounds like a lot of fun to me.

Classes, I don't mind those either.  Mind you, it's nice to have some customization options.  You know, like if you want to be a Bounty Hunter, have some different skill-sets you can develop expertise in.  This way not everyone plays a cookie-cutter character.

Mainly I just don't like when the games are busted, when the business model is a manipulative cash grab, or when the company outright lies to you about what you're paying for.  Lol, I know, such high expectations...