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SpyridonZ, I'm quoting part of a post you made in your debate over what constitutes grind. I don't want to get into the semantics arguement but some of what you said makes me wonder just exactly what you are expecting from TOR. I'm not trying to say it will be a bad game I'm just curious what you think will make it so different. I'll post my questions inside the quote.
Originally posted by SpyridonZ
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Originally posted by Netzoko
The only one out-of-touch here is you! SW: ToR is a MMORPG = Massive Multiplayer Online ROLEPLAYING Game. What roleplaying games have you played that didnt require leveling of some sort? Even in single player rpg games you still have to level something, in KOTOR it was your abilities and force powers, in MASS EFFECT its stats and special abilites, in Fable 2 its gaining XP for Spells, ranged and melee upgrades. All rpg games have some method of grinding. Even shooters have grinding xp in now, I have COD: WAW and multiplayers about grinding xp to unlock weps. The main defining part of the RP genre is the Story! Like films an RP game can surpase its bugs/bad acting if the story is compelling enough to incapturvate the audience. Example of Rp game that did this is KOTOR 2! The game was released way too soon by lucasarts, there were many flaws, some even game breaking. I can remeber the game constanly crashing on certain planets making it imposible to play, yet i was compelled to play to continue the story and find out the ending. Now if the story in KOTOR was dribble like in currently mmos (its rare that people will take the time to read the quest logs, people just want to go to the waypoint and kill and collect reward) then the game would have flopped on an epic scale. As for dev's not mentioning about pvp, perhaps they havent developed that side yet, this game isnt due to be released till dec 2010, pvp tends to be the smaller proportion to develope really compared to the games engine, quests storyline. If your looking for a game thats built around pvp try guildwars, see how it is before you get bored of it. Im sure as time progresses the dev team will release more information about pvp when they have developed the concept in concrete. How can you say this game is cookie cutting when you dont know anything about it yet? lol. Cookie cutting is one of mmos biggest problems because of its player base not the game itself. Players in WoW for example are soo consumed about how much dps there doing, thats its taken over the game play aspect. People who play WoW on the whole dont follow the storyline, i dont know anyone who has, the only people ive met in game talk about getting to level 80 fast to do nax runs, playing paladins, warlocks or death knights cuz there dps is the most imbalanced atm. But WoW is not story driven, its driven by GEAR. Thats why i left WoW, im not interested in doing nax once continously, repeating quests to make money, grinding materials to make items (proffesions are soo dull in wow, there only for profit) its just tedius and for what? so you can brag to your guidies, wow indeed, basically thats all the game is BRAGGING lol. "My dps is X amount bigger than yours" "check out my uldar epics" "my DK can PWN ALL" thats all the game comes down to. But bioware have NEVER made a game like that, have you even played KOTOR 1 and 2, MASS EFFECT, JADE EMPIRE, Never Winter nights? If you havent, you really should try them first, if you dont like em, you definately will have problems enjoying the future mmo lol.
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Originally posted by Draccan
This is really sad! If THIS is what people believe then there will be trouble when they see TOR. Bioware said clearly they believe the players shouldn't have to go look for the story, but they should be guided through it. Just look it up. The information is out there.
Paraphrase much? Learn to read. The article did say that people don't want to have to look for content, but it in no way stated that we would be guided and hand held through it. It may turn out that way or it may not, but stop putting words into the developers mouths when you have absolutely no fact to back up your assertions. Stop infering crap to support your baseless arguments. Why the hell are you here anyway? The game is obviously not for you and yet you keep spouting your vileness in every thread about this game. Go away troll and take your buddies with you. |
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Originally posted by Neanderthal
The significance is that you can shape the story by your decisions. You can make good and bad choices and suffer the consequences for doing so. Have you played any of the KOTOR games? Current games only let you choose to do the quest or not. You don't get to make choices on how you go about it and there are no consequences for doing it one way or another. The story in traditional MMOs never changes direction because you decided to be snide with the NPC. Unless you faction grind, quests don't take your actions into account and slide you toward the good or evil side of the scale. Sliding to the good or evil side or faction grinding as it is in current games doesn't open up different and unique skills or take away those skills if you slide in the opposite direction. Just like KOTRO I and II, you feel vested in your character. It reflects your personality and it shows in game. Any game can offer you story, but how many offer you any kind of choice within that story? How many offer stories that change dynamically after your choices, sending you down a different path? Of course all of these different paths are preset, but you still get to make those choices and live with them. You can't take them back, you can't go back and grind the opposite faction to take you down that other path. If you want to experience that other path, you have to re-roll and do things differently. I don't understand why you guys have such a difficult time seeing the difference and just how much of an immersion factor it really is. The best part of all is that we get to do this personal story and get leveling XP for it without having to constantly kill 10 frakking rats. I wouldn't be surprised if you could reach max level or close just by doing your personal story and never having to grind 1000's of mobs to do so. That alone would make this a revolutionary game, not just evolutionary. |
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Originally posted by Netzoko
Wow.... can you really be serious or is your attempt at sarcasm just very very bad. A great many gamers, myself included, are quite pleased with the shift to story. MMO's have been very light on story... so much so, that the only reason to read a quest's info is to figure exactly how much to kill of what and where that is. Having some sort of storyline to play through will make for a much richer gaming experience. I hope you do realize there are a large number of us that grew up on rpgs rather than quake and unreal tournament.
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Originally posted by Jenuviel
While I see your point, keep in mind that when you read a book, especially a popular one, lots of people have read it before you. I find this in no way diminishes my enjoyment of the book. |
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Valentina
 Hard Core Member
Joined: 5/28/06
They told me I'd never survive, but survive was my middle name. |
I like story. Playing: Age of Conan, Aion: Tower of Eternity.
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Originally posted by Valentina
Well, yes., who doesn't? But in MMOs it's never been really important at all, so long as the universe in which that MMO is set has a strong and consistent lore. For Bioware to proclaim 'Story' is as important as 'Combat', 'Exploration' and 'Progression' is as illogical as a great chef proclaiming that 'A Vacuum Cleaner' is as important to a great meal as 'Meat', 'Vegetables' and 'Spices'.. |
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Originally posted by Netzoko
You don't care about story maybe, but personally I think it will make an amazing gaming experience that offers a ton of replay value. Not the kind of replay value that is solely based on doing the same quest, or camping the same mobs over and over again just to enhance one stupid aspect about my gear. Current MMO's for the most part, but most of all wow, is nothing more than chasing the carrot on a stick. It's always right in front of our face, and they are masters of keeping us wanting it. I think the fact that there is a unique storyline for each class will have alot of people wanting to play many different classes just to be able to experience each one. |
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Originally posted by ktanner3
Of course they don't, because this game is STAR WARS.Therefore since their beloved holy grail was put out of its misery, every Star Wars themed MMO should try and emulate the biggest fail in the history of MMOs because well, IT WAS AWESOME and the hundreds of thousands who didn't like it and left just didn't understand its uberness. How can you not want 32 broken professions that are useless against the alpha class? How can you not want to grind hundreds of hours for that glow stick? Didn't you know? Games should be like a second job, not entertaining.. And story? We don't need no dang story. The greatest story ever told was of the hundreds of geeks who had no life and sat in front of their monitors grinding jedi just so they could pawn everyone. ;)
Calm down. You think you're describing pre-NGE SW fans but actually you're describing TOR fanbois who are already committing themselves to following Bioware's step-by-step game-on-railsa and then when they hit the levelcap retracing their steps and starting gain,,, |
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Originally posted by SpyridonZ
[Mod Edit] there are some of us who seriously doubt that TOR is going to provide a satisfying MMORPG experience by building their product around story. There are good reasons for this:
Most of all:
And that's why many of us are concerned. These are legitimate concerns and this is a legitimate forum in which to voice those concerns. |
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Originally posted by Rydeson
Nicely put - and you sum up the potential, perhaps even fatal flaw of the TOR idea: Lore is Unlimited but Story is Limiting. |
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Originally posted by maxomaxo dude, that was epic. i love you.
The original poster made valid points though in intemperate language. Your response was subliterate and abusive. I hope you are not representative of the TOR demographic otherwise we'll have just one more game fucked up by the nastiness of its players. Please do tell what valid points the OP made? One point made he is sick of hearing about the story in SW:TOR, granted. That was it, that was all, there is no more. The rest was just a mindless rant babbling about how much we dont like that Bioware is witholding information. OP suck it up deal with it move on. When Bioware deems their content ready we will hear about it. Until then we all get to think and wonder about pvp,pve,crafting and items. This game is still in alpha I believe. Wouldent get your panties in a knot yet still a long way to go. |
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The points that you listed are valid, however all the complaining about SW:TOR being a linear themepark which is storydriven with no replayability is pure conjecture at this point seeing as there are currently no examples of actual gameplay released. Once the game is released and it follows your above examples then people can bitch and moan but until that time the handful of posters in this thread who are having issues with the way the game is being developed need to relax, go grab a fat-free latte, and read a book. |
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I agree with what the OP says on a personal level however I do not agree that it represents most MMO players think they want. Good stories demand the full attention of the audience, games are an interactive media. Despite how multi-tasking we think we are, the human brain is NOT multi-tasking. It absorbs information better if it is not multi-tasking. This is why good stories demand full attention of its audience and having its audience do other tasks, removes the audience from the ascetics of the story and then they need to be re-calibrated. This is why, stories in games are always a disaster. The only way to tell a good story in a game is to remove most of the interactivity and choices behind the game. Its important to note that Quests are intretsing to people mostly becuase of the interactivity behind it. The story of the quest might create a better or worse ascetics. But no quest will ever be as good as a very good TV series or Movie. Speaking for myself, I don’t read the stories.
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singsofdeath
 Novice Member
Joined: 1/28/06
"You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity." |
Originally posted by maxomaxo As one of the people who is frequently called a fanboi for this game, let me refute your points a little, mh?
1) Where in creation did story-based gameplay lead (automatically) to a narrow and closed world? As far as we are aware, BiOWare is doing the story-elements in sort of instances (I say sort of, because the Engine they are using is streamlining those rather differently than what we are used to).
2) Storey-Based games are games on rails with many parting of ways on the tracks. At least in BioWare's case and at least as far as what we know is concerned. meaning, you have only half a point there. Yes, the game will be "directed" to a degree, as in, you will have an overarching story, but -how- that story plays out and in which direction it goes is up to you.
3) A game with a unique story to every class as well as several different paths along the storyline is very conductive to replayability. In fact, I would say it is much more conductive to replayability than a game without story. Why? Well, what's the fun in grinding through a game again, when you have nothing to do BUT grind an? Isn't a good, new story much more compelling? Kind of reading a second book in a book series with a different main character.
4) If there were only the story in the game, then yes, I would agree. Which is also why I have repeatedly siad that I hope/pray that BW do not simply slap on some half-arsed end-game content, but have decent/fun PvP, interesting Raids and social areas for players to RP. All of this has been confirmed to be in the game, the wuestion however is -how- it is in the game. Nonetheless, the story, in this case, is only one part of the game.
And lastly:
It has been said in interviews before. It will NOT be a singleplayer experience with multiplayer hubs. It will NOT be like GuildWars. That's not what they are doing.
At least that's what they are saying. Now of course, you can say the Dev's are lying. But then, as I said to other people on this board, there is no use arguing, is there? If you think everything we have been told is a lie, then why the hell bother to argue anything? There's no evidence to be had anyway then.
Why is BioWare talking so much about story? Because it is the thing that sets it apart from other MMO's. Why would they talk about PvP? Why would they talk about Raids? Why would they talk about social hubs? That's all stuff that other games have and that have been demonstrated before. Story, as done in this game, hasn't been there before. So that's what they are promoting. Makes perfect sense, don't you agree?
Now, if in the future, they continue to not say anything about PvP and other End-Game activities, that'll be different. If by the time of beta we still don't know how these things will work or to what degree they will be in, then that's different.
I hope that BW realizes that the end-game content, the part after the story has to be solid and fun as well. If they fail to realize that, then yes, that will be the point where your predictions come true. But so far, they have talked about all the things that are necessary in interviews. Just because you choose to believe the Dev#s are lying to you doesn't mean they are. |
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Themeparks are fun at the beggining but get old fast,they are another form of "carrot on a stick",except the stick breaks faster. |
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singsofdeath
Novice Member
Joined: 1/28/06
"You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity." |
Originally posted by maxomaxo
Riiiight. So developer interviews do not count. I get it. Your opinion or interpretation counts. Good. I get it.
Secondly. If you were able to read, you'd have realized I said the -story- will be introduced in instances. That is, parts of the story where instancing makes sense. If you had read recent interviews, you would know this. Obviously though, you choose to stick to your own theory of the world being completely instanced. Never mind you didn't even bother to check up on HeroEngines instancing mechanics.
Thirdly, since all you are doing is trying to twist words, I have a vague feeling this discussion is not going anywhere. |
Originally posted by Sabradin
speak for yourself I agree about story being too much but if people didn't like grinds then they'd play mmos without grinds and not mmos with tons of grinds
There's like 15 replies in this thread within the nature of "speak for yourself." Well of course I'm speaking for myself, that's the core nature of forums. Everyone here is speaking of opinion, nobody is some spokesperson. Sheesh... Anyway, who said anything about grind? Under no circumstance is story an effort to replace grind, which is entirely my point. Instead of fixing things like grind/classes/kill boar quests, the devs add on new, unnecessary things like story when they should instead be fixing the gripes people have about the genre.
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Originally posted by Netzoko
Well then don't say in the title: Nobody gives a crap... So you assumed everyone is like you and don't care about the story and of course the ones who do will stand up and prove you otherwise. So you brought it on yourself. When posting next time, write: I don't give a crap...
p.s. I do care about the story - especially when I need to make a choice and it affects the gameplay like planned in this game. |
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The biggest problem for devs is there still looking at wow as a base to make a game no one is really willing to try and make a land mark case for something new because where talking millions of dollars and none of them in the long run cares what we think its not our money making the game it becomes are issue once we spend money for it and resub monthly thats when its our issue but by then you go 2 ways quit or play it till you get eventually get bored out of your mind with it...
I dont think there really is a fix for this till someone is willing to stop looking at wow as the model i personally quit paying for mmo's because im just tired of the same thing grind your levels grind crafting or jus grinding anything in general..anyone think of making something not based on having to grind use life as a base do you see us going out and killing furry woodland creatures to get experience no...we train by doing the art and practicing it....storyline is only a small issue they need to fix the content first before you can actually make a story that works...
Look at lotr great story why isnt everyone playing that the reason content of combat no pvp worth a crap everyone has moved up a level and is trying to find that next pvp game that makes them say jeez awsome combat nice story. |
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Originally posted by Netzoko What a ridiculous thread. I wouldn't say that story is what makes an mmo good, but it certainly could help, and none of us even know how well it does or doesn't work. If everyone did have the same opinion as you, then Mortal Online would have twice as many website visits per day as www.swtor.com, and Darkfall Online would have already hit one million subs. |
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Originally posted by Netzoko
There's like 15 replies in this thread within the nature of "speak for yourself." Well of course I'm speaking for myself, that's the core nature of forums. Everyone here is speaking of opinion, nobody is some spokesperson. Sheesh... Anyway, who said anything about grind? Under no circumstance is story an effort to replace grind, which is entirely my point. Instead of fixing things like grind/classes/kill boar quests, the devs add on new, unnecessary things like story when they should instead be fixing the gripes people have about the genre.
I highlighted it for you. 'Unnecessary things like story' is presenting your opinion as fact. While you mean that YOU are not interested in story in a MMO and find it unnecessary, every time you present it either as fact or claim that everyone else agrees with you. Naturally people react to this, because they dont like it when other people put words or opinions in their mouths. Basically all this means is that you already know that you probably wont like this game because of its focus on story. If you brought it like this, people would at the most accuse you from jumping to conclusions.
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heerobya
 Novice Member
Joined: 8/21/04
"What man is a man who does not make the world better?" |
The biggest problem with the MMO genre as a whole is the community. What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this thread is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. |
Originally posted by Draccan
Why not? |
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