Anyone who says stories don't belong as an important part of an mmo should take a moment to consider that this genre would not exist without stories. Or is everyone too damn young to remember mushes and muds, the backbone of the mmo beast?

Originally posted by Lundorff

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

At a minimalist estimate of 200 hours (based on the "hundreds" mentioned above), that's about 5 weeks for a dedicated 40/week "hardcore" (oh, how I hate that word) gamer, which is much longer than it takes to get to (for example) level 80 in WoW. As a casual 20/week gamer, that's 10 weeks.

 

Yes you are correct but 10 weeks is not long in a mmo - lets hope it's on the low end and that BW are not simply hyping / exaggarating / underestimating how much play time is available.

Even though the best estimates are 10 weeks, I have a feeling there will be a very small group of gamers who will somehow be maxed out before the end of the first week of going live.

Originally posted by m240gulf

Even though the best estimates are 10 weeks, I have a feeling there will be a very small group of gamers who will somehow be maxed out before the end of the first week of going live.

 

I know what you mean, but I doubt it will be the case just after launch. Perhaps ½ a year into the game when walkthroughs are flooding the interwebs.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by hubertgrove

Originally posted by zazz

I dont think story is the problem or what is being meant here , its being governed by a story making the game linear that is a big problem.

Agreed - and it's a story that the player cannot change. The player must proceed through it, otherwise there's no game.

How is that different than every other MMOs on the market?

There's always a progressive element in this genre; it's what defines a game as an MMORPG.

If Bioware are going to replace "grind 10000 mobs" or "do 1000 quests to kill 10 x boars" with "complete a long-winded questline" are the end-game oriented players really going to care?

They'll rush through it just as fast as they typically rush through the grinding/questing to get to max level and begin their raiding/PvP. Bioware have already said the game would have these things.

Perhaps a few will whine because it's not bottable, or can't be done semi-afk in large groups .. but I doubt many people (or the developers) will be sympathetic to their viewpoint.

And for the rest of us; the ones who enjoy the journey more than the destination .. it's a HUGE improvement over current MMO mechanics. If they also add in player housing and support for roleplaying, it'll be my dream game.

Thats the point mate its not your journey its theres be design, carefully masked by linear options, yes it will be fun but will it having last appeal i doubt it.

See people are mistaken by Story Driven, Story Arcs, Story and last which i think your mistaken by is LORE.

Regardless i think people want to fall in love with there characters and become someone in that world. not to have to keep roilling different toons and classes every few weeks cause they ran out of content.

Originally posted by eyeswideopen

Anyone who says stories don't belong as an important part of an mmo should take a moment to consider that this genre would not exist without stories. Or is everyone too damn young to remember mushes and muds, the backbone of the mmo beast?

They should go play some BioWare games to have a clue to what they are even saying.
I find it funny that they don't care about story, and are complaining about a company who MAKES story driven games.

This obviously isn't your game, you should look somewhere else instead of throwing out what you want it to be.

I played the same MUD for 12 years and yes, the story, and the fact that it was RP enforced, was what kept me for so long. For muds, the storyline is paramount. For MMO's however, story comes in at place 127 on my list of what makes a fun to play MMO.

Originally posted by zazz

I dont think story is the problem or what is being meant here , its being governed by a story making the game linear that is a big problem.

Why?

Why do you assume players are going to be governed by story (rather than the other way around)? Why do you assume it's going to be exclusively linear? Why do you assume it's going to be a "big" problem?

Originally posted by hubertgrove

Saying '...well, just no' doesn't change reality. There are hundreds of story-arcs in WoW. If you haven't seen any of them then perhaps there is something wrong with you..

Perhaps I read less comic books thank you or something; but "go kill 10 wolves, they're eating mah sheeps." doesn't constitute "a story", especially when said wolves still respawn once you've killed 10 of 'em, and you never actually see them eating the sheeps to begin with.

And whoever said "TOR is.. (and is... intended to be) SWG2"? Not me. And the idea of 'switching from a Bounty Hunter to a Smuggler..." ie by destroying your character and then starting all over again is the most bizarre definition of character mutability I have ever heard. No seriously. It's farcical.

Are you actually insane? You compared it to SWG yourself just a couple of posts ago. And what's contains more farce; the idea that to play two different heroes you must play two different people (the reroll approach) or the idea that your hero can suddenly forget every aspect of his/her training/abilities and arbitrarily relearn someone elses? Repatedly?

YOU MUST TURN DOWN YOUR FANBOI. IT'S SET TOO HIGH. THANKS.

OK BUT PLEASE STOP DRINKING THE HATORADE, IT CAUSES ANAL LEAKAGE.

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by zazz

I dont think story is the problem or what is being meant here , its being governed by a story making the game linear that is a big problem.

 

Why?

Why do you assume players are going to be governed by story (rather than the other way around)? Why do you assume it's going to be exclusively linear? Why do you assume it's going to be a "big" problem?

I dont assume being governed by a linear story in a MMO is linear and a problem its a fact, question you should be asking rather than just adding the word assume to my points is , will character progression be governed in this game by story, will my charcters lv determin content? if so then yes its not good,

Why you assume it wont? ;P  "its rhetorical,im not interested".

Originally posted by zazz

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by zazz

I dont think story is the problem or what is being meant here , its being governed by a story making the game linear that is a big problem.

 

Why?

Why do you assume players are going to be governed by story (rather than the other way around)? Why do you assume it's going to be exclusively linear? Why do you assume it's going to be a "big" problem?

I dont assume being governed by a linear story in a MMO is linear and a problem its a fact, question you should be asking rather than just adding the word assume to my points is , will character progression be governed in this game by story, will my charcters determin content? if so then yes its not good,

 

Why you assume it wont? ;P  "its rhetorical,im not interested".

The story being linear in this saga is that way for a reason, you don't just jump into the story with Luke meeting Han Solo right away and then later on going to the very beginning where Luke is first being born, the game has to start WITH Luke being born to progress the story to meet Han Solo.

It makes perfect sense the way they are doing this, Usually characters in movies start off by them selves, switching between each of the characters and then slowly progressing them all towards each other to where they are doing things in groups.

Originally posted by zazz

Thats the point mate its not your journey its theres be design, carefully masked by linear options, yes it will be fun but will it having last appeal i doubt it.

Granted, it's themepark (their story) instead of sandbox (your story), but who wants to read a book that they write themselves? I want to experience a story written by a professional story-writing dude who's employment is specifically limited to writing stories for me to enjoy.

Each individual story isn't supposed to have lasting appeal; that's why they're saying that each class has a completely different one. The only way you'd replay the same story twice would be if you rolled the same character class twice, and if you do that then you have to expect some repetition.

See people are mistaken by Story Driven, Story Arcs, Story and last which i think your mistaken by is LORE.

Lore and Story are very different things. TOR is offering an interactive story narrative; that's not Lore.

Regardless i think people want to fall in love with there characters and become someone in that world. not to have to keep roilling different toons and classes every few weeks cause they ran out of content.

No gameplay mechanic can make you "someone" in an MMO; that can only be achieved by being an active member of the community.

Originally posted by Aeraized

Originally posted by zazz

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by zazz

I dont think story is the problem or what is being meant here , its being governed by a story making the game linear that is a big problem.

 

Why?

Why do you assume players are going to be governed by story (rather than the other way around)? Why do you assume it's going to be exclusively linear? Why do you assume it's going to be a "big" problem?

I dont assume being governed by a linear story in a MMO is linear and a problem its a fact, question you should be asking rather than just adding the word assume to my points is , will character progression be governed in this game by story, will my charcters determin content? if so then yes its not good,

 

Why you assume it wont? ;P  "its rhetorical,im not interested".

The story being linear in this saga is that way for a reason, you don't just jump into the story with Luke meeting Han Solo right away and then later on going to the very beginning where Luke is first being born, the game has to start WITH Luke being born to progress the story to meet Han Solo.

It makes perfect sense the way they are doing this, Usually characters in movies start off by them selves, switching between each of the characters and then slowly progressing them all towards each other to where they are doing things in groups.

Huh ur not luke or anyoen else your ur own avatar so why u need to have the whole story played out to you lol? and luke not even in teh timeline of teh game or you using this is a example which i still dont understand, im interested but no idea what your saying.

I have no problem with story lets get this straight , its story driven i have a problem with , i dont even mind AoCfirst 20 level warm up , but when i go into a world yes i want lore yes i want the world to move forward with the timesline with me, but do i want it to depict what i can or cant do, nope.

Originally posted by hubertgrove

IT'S STILL TOO HIGH, KID. Thanks.

Ack, you called me "KID" (despite my profile clearly stating my age at 31) .. that hasn't happened in years .. I'm pretty sure that CAPS MAKE IT TRUE, but I can't quite remember what the appropriate response is to being called "KID" by someone who is probably far younger and less mature than I am.

Now I need to dig out my english-to-troll dictionary, I think it's in the attic somewhere. Back in a bit.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by zazz

Thats the point mate its not your journey its theres be design, carefully masked by linear options, yes it will be fun but will it having last appeal i doubt it.

Granted, it's themepark (their story) instead of sandbox (your story), but who wants to read a book that they write themselves? I want to experience a story written by a professional story-writing dude who's employment is specifically limited to writing stories for me to enjoy.

Each individual story isn't supposed to have lasting appeal; that's why they're saying that each class has a completely different one. The only way you'd replay the same story twice would be if you rolled the same character class twice, and if you do that then you have to expect some repetition.

Your playing the game with one class the sotry finishes so does your journey, how is that not linear? so un-linear it you roll another class and again and again , you get different stories but teh same outcome , lmao wtf what kinda MMO is that.

See people are mistaken by Story Driven, Story Arcs, Story and last which i think your mistaken by is LORE.

Lore and Story are very different things. TOR is offering an interactive story narrative; that's not Lore.

Erm yes as i said every opne of those are different.

Regardless i think people want to fall in love with there characters and become someone in that world. not to have to keep roilling different toons and classes every few weeks cause they ran out of content.

No gameplay mechanic can make you "someone" in an MMO; that can only be achieved by being an active member of the community.

Hum ? as i said everyone wants to become there own character/avatar is a game they dont want it depicted ffor them.

 

I dont understand , you just reply to agree with me?

Originally posted by zazz

Originally posted by Aeraized

Originally posted by zazz

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by zazz

I dont think story is the problem or what is being meant here , its being governed by a story making the game linear that is a big problem.

 

Why?

Why do you assume players are going to be governed by story (rather than the other way around)? Why do you assume it's going to be exclusively linear? Why do you assume it's going to be a "big" problem?

I dont assume being governed by a linear story in a MMO is linear and a problem its a fact, question you should be asking rather than just adding the word assume to my points is , will character progression be governed in this game by story, will my charcters determin content? if so then yes its not good,

 

Why you assume it wont? ;P  "its rhetorical,im not interested".

The story being linear in this saga is that way for a reason, you don't just jump into the story with Luke meeting Han Solo right away and then later on going to the very beginning where Luke is first being born, the game has to start WITH Luke being born to progress the story to meet Han Solo.

It makes perfect sense the way they are doing this, Usually characters in movies start off by them selves, switching between each of the characters and then slowly progressing them all towards each other to where they are doing things in groups.

 

Huh ur not luke or anyoen else your ur own avatar so why u need to have the whole story played out to you lol? and luke not even in teh timeline of teh game or you using this is a example which i still dont understand, im interested but no idea what your saying.

I have no problem with story lets get this straight , its story driven i have a problem with , i dont even mind AoCfirst 20 level warm up , but when i go into a world yes i want lore yes i want the world to move forward with the timesline with me, but do i want it to depict what i can or cant do, nope.

Most MMOs restrict you on what you are going to do at any given level, if you were level 10, you're not going to be raiding with the level 70's.

I don't see how Story will be any different than that, considering they are "Story Missions" they give you exp, you'll level and keep continuing up to max level.

Plus they already stated you will be done with your Careers Story long before you even hit the max level.

Originally posted by Netzoko

It blows my mind how out of touch developers are with the MMO base. With literally the biggest IP in the world, their focus is NOT what gamers have hated about mmos for years. No no, they will contiune to shovel the bullshit, but will now have STORY!

Are you kidding me? The level of absurdity is making my brain swell. People hate classes, they hate levels, they hate watered-down gameplay and grind. Does BioWare plan on address these -universal- complaints? Fuck no, to them the problem with MMOs is story? My mind is utterly blown. From forum to forum across the internet, followers are asking the same basic questions. Whats pvp like? Whats pve like? How are the classes? What is the item system like? Yet over and over, every single dev blog and release is about story. I just can't wrap my head around the unsurpassable amount of ignorance by the dev teams. You would think that seeing the failings of supposed "blockbuster" MMOs like Aoc and WAR would send a message, but no. Alas we continue to be insulted by developers who ignore the -KEY- issues people have with the genre, and instead focus on something utterly worthless.

Newsflash jackasses, your customers arn't upset with lack of story, they are upset with the cookie cutter MMO template that money grubing bandwagoners like you continue to reiterate and expect to sell.

i think story line is inportant.. for some player but they should really focuse more on gameplay content
 

Originally posted by Aeraized

I don't see how Story will be any different than that, considering they are "Story Missions" they give you exp, you'll level and keep continuing up to max level.

Plus they already stated you will be done with your Careers Story long before you even hit the max level.

I was not aware of this. Would you call this a sort of 'story grinding' after the main story is ended? This could possible extend the lifespan of the character for quite awhile.

Originally posted by zazz

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by zazz

Thats the point mate its not your journey its theres be design, carefully masked by linear options, yes it will be fun but will it having last appeal i doubt it.

Granted, it's themepark (their story) instead of sandbox (your story), but who wants to read a book that they write themselves? I want to experience a story written by a professional story-writing dude who's employment is specifically limited to writing stories for me to enjoy.

Each individual story isn't supposed to have lasting appeal; that's why they're saying that each class has a completely different one. The only way you'd replay the same story twice would be if you rolled the same character class twice, and if you do that then you have to expect some repetition.

Your playing the game with one class the sotry finishes so does your journey, how is that not linear? so un-linear it you roll another class and again and again , you get different stories but teh same outcome , lmao wtf what kinda MMO is that.

The game doesn't end when you hit max level and/or complete your story arc. There will be raids, PvP etc at the "end-game" for people who want to stay at that level and continue to progress their characters. The story-driven gameplay that TOR offers isn't a replacement for the end-game, it's a replacement for the levelling process.

See people are mistaken by Story Driven, Story Arcs, Story and last which i think your mistaken by is LORE.

Lore and Story are very different things. TOR is offering an interactive story narrative; that's not Lore.

Erm yes as i said every opne of those are different.

Regardless i think people want to fall in love with there characters and become someone in that world. not to have to keep roilling different toons and classes every few weeks cause they ran out of content.

No gameplay mechanic can make you "someone" in an MMO; that can only be achieved by being an active member of the community.

Hum ? as i said everyone wants to become there own character/avatar is a game they dont want it depicted ffor them.

Not true; most people don't want that sort of game. That's sandbox thinking, the majority of gamers prefer a linear themepark. TOR's difference is that it will allow you to make moral (and important to your progression) choices along the ride.

 I dont understand , you just reply to agree with me?

I'm not entirely sure what one of your points were; I might have agreed with you on that one but I definately disagreed with you on the other two.

I'll be giving TOR a shot, no doubt. But this story thing does worry me too.

Some of you might understand this when I say you know how it can be the first couple weeks with a new game? The staying up till ungodly hours because the game is so much bloody fun, learning the ins and outs.. work or not, you might easily be able to spend 40 hours a week playing.

And that's where this story thing comes in. Even if every class has, say, 200 hours or so of content, that's gonna end up being what? 2-3 months of playing, at best?

What can I do besides just following the story along? Unless some of the quests take a week or more to complete, I'm concerned there's never going to be enough content to keep you interested. And what happens once you've done it all? Just go try another class? Bit of raiding or pvp.. wait for the next expansion? Once my character has completed his/her final plot arc, it's going to become increasingly harder to make story progression. The Jedi free the republic (or whatever), from the nasty Sith types. Yay, much celebration! Then what? Next expansion has story arcs for saving the universe? Where do you go after that?

Stories are, in general, journies, with destinations. And there's a reasons even long-running series of stories come to an end. Eventually there isn't anything interesting to write about. No more progression left.

Also, on the note of stories; one of the reasons I fell in love with role-playing and MMOs is because I wanted to change the ending of the story. Personally, that's what I think MMOs should be about: choice. Choose your own adventure. If I want to go over here, cool. If I want to ignore the plot and go look at some clowns over there, sweet. I go do that. Lately, too many MMORPGs have been theme-parks. I can't go over there and poke the clowns because the ride has a safety bar that I can't remove. So I have to go where it leads me.

I'm not saying that TOR will like that analogy at all, but I am concerned there simply won't be enough choice (even multiple choice tends to take you to the same destination, to a degree). I'm also a little concerned that everyone will be the same. That I will either have to get on the same train ride as the rest of the smugglers, or stand at the platform with nothing to do, and only a vending machine for company.

At the end of the day though, these are just concerns for now. None of us here know enough to say one way or the other. So far, I like the look of TOR and will give it a shot, regardless.

Originally posted by korvass

I'll be giving TOR a shot, no doubt. But this story thing does worry me too.

Some of you might understand this when I say you know how it can be the first couple weeks with a new game? The staying up till ungodly hours because the game is so much bloody fun, learning the ins and outs.. work or not, you might easily be able to spend 40 hours a week playing.

And that's where this story thing comes in. Even if every class has, say, 200 hours or so of content, that's gonna end up being what? 2-3 months of playing, at best?

What can I do besides just following the story along? Unless some of the quests take a week or more to complete, I'm concerned there's never going to be enough content to keep you interested. And what happens once you've done it all? Just go try another class? Bit of raiding or pvp.. wait for the next expansion? Once my character has completed his/her final plot arc, it's going to become increasingly harder to make story progression. The Jedi free the republic (or whatever), from the nasty Sith types. Yay, much celebration! Then what? Next expansion has story arcs for saving the universe? Where do you go after that?

Stories are, in general, journies, with destinations. And there's a reasons even long-running series of stories come to an end. Eventually there isn't anything interesting to write about. No more progression left.

Also, on the note of stories; one of the reasons I fell in love with role-playing and MMOs is because I wanted to change the ending of the story. Personally, that's what I think MMOs should be about: choice. Choose your own adventure. If I want to go over here, cool. If I want to ignore the plot and go look at some clowns over there, sweet. I go do that. Lately, too many MMORPGs have been theme-parks. I can't go over there and poke the clowns because the ride has a safety bar that I can't remove. So I have to go where it leads me.

I'm not saying that TOR will like that analogy at all, but I am concerned there simply won't be enough choice (even multiple choice tends to take you to the same destination, to a degree). I'm also a little concerned that everyone will be the same. That I will either have to get on the same train ride as the rest of the smugglers, or stand at the platform with nothing to do, and only a vending machine for company.

At the end of the day though, these are just concerns for now. None of us here know enough to say one way or the other. So far, I like the look of TOR and will give it a shot, regardless.

thats pretty much what happened to me and age of conan
i felt the story to lvl 80 was great but after it i had to little to do to stay in game.

i dont want to defend grinders like lineage2 or storyless games like darkfall but in the longrun i know few games besides wow able to keep players subscribed over a long time that are actually story based.

It’s extremely important to have the satisfaction of completing things. A BioWare story has never been a hamster wheel. We want you, even within there, long before you get to the end level to have completed whole storylines, to have put that to bed, to know what’s going on.

http://www.mmogamer.com/06/11/2009/a-new-hope-for-mmos

It's somewhere on the third page.

As a side note, BioWare did not intend to hype the game to what it is now, it's mostly all the gaming sites saying "This game looks very promising".
I've only ever heard one dev say "This game is the biggest thing BioWare has ever worked on, and I think you all will be very pleased".

If they wanted to hype the games, they would have Paul Barnett's brother doing everything PR related.
They are intentionally slowly releasing things as they can, BioWare tends to do that after they are absolutely certain they can backup their claims.
 

Originally posted by craynlon

Originally posted by korvass

I'll be giving TOR a shot, no doubt. But this story thing does worry me too.

Some of you might understand this when I say you know how it can be the first couple weeks with a new game? The staying up till ungodly hours because the game is so much bloody fun, learning the ins and outs.. work or not, you might easily be able to spend 40 hours a week playing.

And that's where this story thing comes in. Even if every class has, say, 200 hours or so of content, that's gonna end up being what? 2-3 months of playing, at best?

What can I do besides just following the story along? Unless some of the quests take a week or more to complete, I'm concerned there's never going to be enough content to keep you interested. And what happens once you've done it all? Just go try another class? Bit of raiding or pvp.. wait for the next expansion? Once my character has completed his/her final plot arc, it's going to become increasingly harder to make story progression. The Jedi free the republic (or whatever), from the nasty Sith types. Yay, much celebration! Then what? Next expansion has story arcs for saving the universe? Where do you go after that?

Stories are, in general, journies, with destinations. And there's a reasons even long-running series of stories come to an end. Eventually there isn't anything interesting to write about. No more progression left.

Also, on the note of stories; one of the reasons I fell in love with role-playing and MMOs is because I wanted to change the ending of the story. Personally, that's what I think MMOs should be about: choice. Choose your own adventure. If I want to go over here, cool. If I want to ignore the plot and go look at some clowns over there, sweet. I go do that. Lately, too many MMORPGs have been theme-parks. I can't go over there and poke the clowns because the ride has a safety bar that I can't remove. So I have to go where it leads me.

I'm not saying that TOR will like that analogy at all, but I am concerned there simply won't be enough choice (even multiple choice tends to take you to the same destination, to a degree). I'm also a little concerned that everyone will be the same. That I will either have to get on the same train ride as the rest of the smugglers, or stand at the platform with nothing to do, and only a vending machine for company.

At the end of the day though, these are just concerns for now. None of us here know enough to say one way or the other. So far, I like the look of TOR and will give it a shot, regardless.

 

thats pretty much what happened to me and age of conan
i felt the story to lvl 80 was great but after it i had to little to do to stay in game.

i dont want to defend grinders like lineage2 or storyless games like darkfall but in the longrun i know few games besides wow able to keep players subscribed over a long time that are actually story based.

There was very little story to WoW, mostly just lore and you creating your own destiny as a Hero. There was no story to Bolvar killing Onyxia, there was however, story leading up to finding out who Onyxia was. LK added alot to story however.

The game is called Star WARS for a reason, theres plenty of story to go about end game.

Let it go Ilvaldyr, you've already made him look like a fool quite a bit now, if anything he should turn up his intelligence a few notches.

Use your block button and forget about him. Works wonders :)

korvass: Yes your concerns mirror many of my own. I hope the overall story is not already set in stone e.g. Lucas wants the Sith do dominate in the period from X to Y whereafter a vacuum takes place and the Republic takes back control or something similar. I really hope that we, the players, are allowed the create the fundamental lore with this game - to write SW history based on several pre-planned but player-decided outcomes.

Ilvaldyr: don't feed the trolls