***Raises Hand*** Hi everyone, my name is Nobody and I give a crap about story.

I don't care for story as much as game play but for many story is a big part. There are tons people that like to role play. The fact that it is Star Wars game does make the story more impotent for the fans. You go on about how people hate classes then go on about people asking about how they are in the game? If you don't want leveling and classes why not just play Fps on console or something. I enjoy leveling up and playing different classes as long as I'm having fun. How would you fix classes and leveling? I don't see any options I would like. I care more for the general game play. Sounds like your just burnt out like most gamers these days. I will say games do feel like they are lacking and have not been getting that much better other then graphics generally. I would say it has to do with most companies just want to make a buck rather then a good game or we have hit a plateau, but I don't know to be honest. I just hope this game isn't all hype like so many have been lately.
 

Originally posted by freakky

I don't care for story as much as game play but for many story is a big part. There are tons people that like to role play. The fact that it is Star Wars game does make the story more impotent for the fans. You go on about how people hate classes then go on about people asking about how they are in the game? If you don't want leveling and classes why not just play Fps on console or something. I enjoy leveling up and playing different classes as long as I'm having fun. How would you fix classes and leveling? I don't see any options I would like. I care more for the general game play. Sounds like your just burnt out like most gamers these days. I will say games do feel like they are lacking and have not been getting that much better other then graphics generally. I would say it has to do with most companies just want to make a buck rather then a good game or we have hit a plateau, but I don't know to be honest. I just hope this game isn't all hype like so many have been lately.
 

 

+1 

No good point there are alot of people who role play but this isn't what the game is aimed at, Story makes it so everybody will be role playing whether or not they want to, just like mass effect. This is going to be a mmo break through.

Originally posted by Netzoko

It blows my mind how out of touch developers are with the MMO base. With literally the biggest IP in the world, their focus is NOT what gamers have hated about mmos for years. No no, they will contiune to shovel the bullshit, but will now have STORY!

Are you kidding me? The level of absurdity is making my brain swell. People hate classes, they hate levels, they hate watered-down gameplay and grind. Does BioWare plan on address these -universal- complaints? Fuck no, to them the problem with MMOs is story? My mind is utterly blown. From forum to forum across the internet, followers are asking the same basic questions. Whats pvp like? Whats pve like? How are the classes? What is the item system like? Yet over and over, every single dev blog and release is about story. I just can't wrap my head around the unsurpassable amount of ignorance by the dev teams. You would think that seeing the failings of supposed "blockbuster" MMOs like Aoc and WAR would send a message, but no. Alas we continue to be insulted by developers who ignore the -KEY- issues people have with the genre, and instead focus on something utterly worthless.

Newsflash jackasses, your customers arn't upset with lack of story, they are upset with the cookie cutter MMO template that money grubing bandwagoners like you continue to reiterate and expect to sell.

LOL, got to love these types of people who truly believe that whatever opinion they have on an issue the whole world shares, or should share.  Story just so happens to be one of the biggest draws of any mmo for me.  And believe it or not, I'm probably not the only one with that opinion.

Originally posted by Netzoko

It blows my mind how out of touch developers are with the MMO base. With literally the biggest IP in the world, their focus is NOT what gamers have hated about mmos for years. No no, they will contiune to shovel the bullshit, but will now have STORY!

Are you kidding me? The level of absurdity is making my brain swell. People hate classes, they hate levels, they hate watered-down gameplay and grind. Does BioWare plan on address these -universal- complaints? Fuck no, to them the problem with MMOs is story? My mind is utterly blown. From forum to forum across the internet, followers are asking the same basic questions. Whats pvp like? Whats pve like? How are the classes? What is the item system like? Yet over and over, every single dev blog and release is about story. I just can't wrap my head around the unsurpassable amount of ignorance by the dev teams. You would think that seeing the failings of supposed "blockbuster" MMOs like Aoc and WAR would send a message, but no. Alas we continue to be insulted by developers who ignore the -KEY- issues people have with the genre, and instead focus on something utterly worthless.

Newsflash jackasses, your customers arn't upset with lack of story, they are upset with the cookie cutter MMO template that money grubing bandwagoners like you continue to reiterate and expect to sell.

It amazes me how out of touch the MMO base is with innovation and improving games and trying to make them better and do something never before done.

It also amazes me how fickle the MMO base is too.

Originally posted by qombi

 First off, the original poster needs to ease off of the curse words and hate filled sentences if he wants people to read his arguments. 

Since I have gotten that out of the way, I keep seeing people talk about grind this grind that grind etc. I too enjoy a good story but these are online persistant games. How much longevity will a story driven game have if it was like some people want here with nothing you do more than once? That would be a very short lived MMORPG you pay monthly for. These games have to last for at least a little time period. World of Warcraft has absolutely no grind to it anymore. There is really nothing you have to grind for. If you feel that game is a grind what do you want? 

I seriously want to know how YOU guys would design an online persistent world without ABSOLUTELY nothing being repeated. Please inform me because I am honestly curious. Even when I played Final Fantasy as a kid for the Nintendo, my hero had to "grind" on monsters to raise his stats to be able to kill the bosses. In RPGs it is called character progression. I think they need to start making more persistent online worlds that are first person shooters because there is definitely a big market for instant gratification games that are NOT rpgs. Stop turning rpgs into action games. Please just make both.

 

Their is more than "just" story, they will still have you basic quests, yes, even kill 10 smugglers kind of quests, but in a KOTOR fashion, that feels more like, go kill 10 smugglers, save their captive, and defend said captive while getting back to mission collector.  They DO have PvP, they DO have Raids... this is an mmo in every aspect of the word, just with a more "immersed" feel to it and a unique storyline you can do on top of that.  I don't want absolutely NO grind, I just want my grind covered in layers of satin an silk.

Good post, btw, if more people would contribute possibly constructive posts there would be MUCH less drama... unfornately there exists a lurking, evil, creature in the forums by the name of hubertgrove who will, I am almost possitive, bring the much hated drama to these forum. :(

Originally posted by NecroHelium

Originally posted by qombi

 First off, the original poster needs to ease off of the curse words and hate filled sentences if he wants people to read his arguments. 

Since I have gotten that out of the way, I keep seeing people talk about grind this grind that grind etc. I too enjoy a good story but these are online persistant games. How much longevity will a story driven game have if it was like some people want here with nothing you do more than once? That would be a very short lived MMORPG you pay monthly for. These games have to last for at least a little time period. World of Warcraft has absolutely no grind to it anymore. There is really nothing you have to grind for. If you feel that game is a grind what do you want? 

I seriously want to know how YOU guys would design an online persistent world without ABSOLUTELY nothing being repeated. Please inform me because I am honestly curious. Even when I played Final Fantasy as a kid for the Nintendo, my hero had to "grind" on monsters to raise his stats to be able to kill the bosses. In RPGs it is called character progression. I think they need to start making more persistent online worlds that are first person shooters because there is definitely a big market for instant gratification games that are NOT rpgs. Stop turning rpgs into action games. Please just make both.

 

Their is more than "just" story, they will still have you basic quests, yes, even kill 10 smugglers kind of quests, but in a KOTOR fashion, that feels more like, go kill 10 smugglers, save their captive, and defend said captive while getting back to mission collector.  They DO have PvP, they DO have Raids... this is an mmo in every aspect of the word, just with a more "immersed" feel to it and a unique storyline you can do on top of that.  I don't want absolutely NO grind, I just want my grind covered in layers of satin an silk.

Good post, btw, if more people would contribute possibly constructive posts there would be MUCH less drama... unfornately there exists a lurking, evil, creature in the forums by the name of hubertgrove who will, I am almost possitive, bring the much hated drama to these forum. :(

I am definitely interested in how it plays out. I will be buying a copy. I am optimistic they will give us something great. We shall see. : )

I have a question.... Why dont all you people who think they know what everyone wants in a game group up and make your so called brilliant, everyone will love it, Not 1 single person in this whole damn world will hate it.. master piece of a game.... huh... why dont you.

Cause you seem to think you know what will make the perfect game so why not make it.... Oh right you dont know a damn thing about making a game..

Originally posted by LordRelic

I have a question.... Why dont all you people who think they know what everyone wants in a game group up and make your so called brilliant, everyone will love it, Not 1 single person in this whole damn world will hate it.. master piece of a game.... huh... why dont you.

 

Cause you seem to think you know what will make the perfect game so why not make it.... Oh right you dont know a damn thing about making a game..

Because no one would give them a dime for their idea.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Netzoko

Somehow I struck a nerve. There's a lot of angry people here :(

It's a forum, that's kinda to be expected. :P

This goes beyond this specific game. The point is simple; the genre is fading and going downhill. If you don't agree that's fine, but its safe the say the majority of posters on these forums have seen constant disappointment by the stream of cut-paste MMOs where developers refuse to fix the correct problems.

See, here's the thing .. the "majority of forum posters" doesn't represent the "majority of MMO players". People rarely post on forums when they're happy about things, so the overwhelming majority (there's that word again) of people on sites like this are actually just the (very) vocal minority. Which is why developers don't often listen to forums. And even amongst this minority, most people in this thread disagree with you.

That should tell you how few people share the opinion in your OP.

There's nothing wrong with story, but to overlook the pound after pound of tired out design techniques to instead fix something that doesn't need fixing is absurd. Dozens of car companies release cars with flat tires and shoddy transmissions. BioWare comes along, ignores those problems, and decides to market their new car with the key feature of new paint. It's ridiculous.

These companies ignore the big issues. They just need to rework their priorities.

I'm not sure where you're getting your information or on what basis you're drawing this conclusion about TOR, 'cos the developers have already said that they will have "endgame" stuff like raiding, PVP and crafting. The story element is being so well publicised mainly on the basis that it's something that no other MMO has these days.

TOR is an attempt by Bioware to bring the RP back into the MMORPG; they're still going to have the MMO and the G.

 

               THIS ^^                .......   Sorry couldn't resist. 

     Ilva your post sums up a few of my thoughts on the matter as well.

I unlocked my FS after grinding through 22 professions and quit SWG within a month thereafter as the game had nothing to do with my definition of StarWars.

Story matter and I absolutely loved the story in KOTOR - have read several fanfics based on the game. With that being said I didn't find Jade Empire nor Mass Effect to have a particular compelling story but this is SW so lets hope for the best.

My main worry with a story driven mmo is the lack of long term pve game play. I don't want to play a different class just to prolong the lifespan of the game, I want to continue improving my main for long time even if that involves standard grinding and I fear that won't be possible in TOR. Their 'hundreds hour worth of gameplay for each class' might last a dedicated pve'er a month or two.

Ahh... this game is too far way

I dont think story is the problem or what is being meant here , its being governed by a story making the game linear that is a big problem.

Originally posted by Netzoko

Greetings, Netzoko.  I thought that I should take this opportunity to help you make your post sound a little less like an upset troll rant and share a little more of your own opinion in a less hostile manner.

It blows my mind how developers make games without me, Netzoko, in mind while doing so. With possibly the biggest IP in the world, their focus is NOT what I, Netzoko have hated about mmos for years. No no, they will contiune to develop the game as they see fit, but will now have STORY!

Are you kidding me? The level of absurdity is making my brain swell. I hate classes, I hate levels, I hate watered-down gameplay and grind. Does BioWare plan on address these personal complaints that I have about the MMO genre? Heck no, to them the way to create their own MMO is to focus on story? My mind is utterly blown. From forum to forum across the internet, followers are asking the same basic questions. Whats pvp like? Whats pve like? How are the classes? What is the item system like? Yet over and over, every single dev blog and release is about story. I just can't wrap my head around the unsurpassable amount of information not being released that I, Netzoko would like to know about. You would think that seeing the failings of supposed "blockbuster" MMOs like Aoc and WAR would send a message, but maybe it has?  I don't know, I haven't played the game yet, what do you all think? Alas I [apparently] continue to be insulted by developers who ignore the -KEY- issues I have with the genre, and instead focus on something that I consider utterly worthless. So why am I following the game... hmm.. I dunno?

Newsflash Bioware, I am not upset with lack of story, I am upset with the cookie cutter MMO template that money grubing bandwagoners like you might be continuing to reiterate and expect to sell. But I'm not really sure at this point, because I don't know anything about the game besides it having story!

You're welcome.

Originally posted by Dameonk

Originally posted by Netzoko

Greetings, Netzoko.  I thought that I should take this opportunity to help you make your post sound a little less like an upset troll rant and share a little more of your own opinion in a less hostile manner.

It blows my mind how developers make games without me, Netzoko, in mind while doing so. With possibly the biggest IP in the world, their focus is NOT what I, Netzoko have hated about mmos for years. No no, they will contiune to develop the game as they see fit, but will now have STORY!

Are you kidding me? The level of absurdity is making my brain swell. I hate classes, I hate levels, I hate watered-down gameplay and grind. Does BioWare plan on address these personal complaints that I have about the MMO genre? Heck no, to them the way to create their own MMO is to focus on story? My mind is utterly blown. From forum to forum across the internet, followers are asking the same basic questions. Whats pvp like? Whats pve like? How are the classes? What is the item system like? Yet over and over, every single dev blog and release is about story. I just can't wrap my head around the unsurpassable amount of information not being released that I, Netzoko would like to know about. You would think that seeing the failings of supposed "blockbuster" MMOs like Aoc and WAR would send a message, but maybe it has?  I don't know, I haven't played the game yet, what do you all think? Alas I [apparently] continue to be insulted by developers who ignore the -KEY- issues I have with the genre, and instead focus on something that I consider utterly worthless. So why am I following the game... hmm.. I dunno?

Newsflash Bioware, I am not upset with lack of story, I am upset with the cookie cutter MMO template that money grubing bandwagoners like you might be continuing to reiterate and expect to sell. But I'm not really sure at this point, because I don't know anything about the game besides it having story!

 

You're welcome.

Lol, well done.

Us sandboxers are in the vast minority. Look how well AoC and WAR sold initially, both very heavy theme park mmos. If they were actually decent, and not based 80% on hype, I have no doubt they would have grown in subscribers instead of crashing.

I think if bioware takes their time, and makes the gameplay solid, then their game will do just fine.

Having only one option sucks for those of us interested in sandbox games. Hell I want to be a vendor and craft, market and sell my goods but until someone tests the water, we'll have to wait a while for our game.

Originally posted by zazz

I dont think story is the problem or what is being meant here , its being governed by a story making the game linear that is a big problem.

Agreed - and it's a story that the player cannot change. The player must proceed through it, otherwise there's no game.

Originally posted by teiohFromSWG

Us sandboxers are in the vast minority. Look how well AoC and WAR sold initially, both very heavy theme park mmos. If they were actually decent, and not based 80% on hype, I have no doubt they would have grown in subscribers instead of crashing.

I think if bioware takes their time, and makes the gameplay solid, then their game will do just fine.

Having only one option sucks for those of us interested in sandbox games. Hell I want to be a vendor and craft, market and sell my goods but until someone tests the water, we'll have to wait a while for our game.

Agreed, basically what many of us want - and there's no indication that it's a minority at all, it might even be a majority - is a well-produced and planned, stable and complex sandbox from a major development house that knows how to treat cusrtomers professionally and isn't going to go bust. In other words, a studio like Bioware.

Now, obviously, SW: TOR is not it but just because many of us, perhaps most, want a sandbox, doesn't mean we don't also want a dazzling, themepark srpg online to succeed as well. It is possible to want and admire two things at once.

Originally posted by hubertgrove

Originally posted by zazz

I dont think story is the problem or what is being meant here , its being governed by a story making the game linear that is a big problem.

Agreed - and it's a story that the player cannot change. The player must proceed through it, otherwise there's no game.

How is that different than every other MMOs on the market?

There's always a progressive element in this genre; it's what defines a game as an MMORPG.

If Bioware are going to replace "grind 10000 mobs" or "do 1000 quests to kill 10 x boars" with "complete a long-winded questline" are the end-game oriented players really going to care?

They'll rush through it just as fast as they typically rush through the grinding/questing to get to max level and begin their raiding/PvP. Bioware have already said the game would have these things.

Perhaps a few will whine because it's not bottable, or can't be done semi-afk in large groups .. but I doubt many people (or the developers) will be sympathetic to their viewpoint.

And for the rest of us; the ones who enjoy the journey more than the destination .. it's a HUGE improvement over current MMO mechanics. If they also add in player housing and support for roleplaying, it'll be my dream game.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

If Bioware are going to replace "grind 10000 mobs" or "do 1000 quests to kill 10 x boars" with "complete a long-winded questline" are the end-game oriented players really going to care?

That would be bloody marvelous, but is exacly where I fear this game will fall short. It would take a herculean effort to make the amount of story drive pve content that would be required to mirror a standard amount of character grind. In a pve grind-game such as FlyFF it takes several months to reach the highest level for your class. Even for a dedicated, non-cashshop, grinder. I hope, but doubt, TOR will have the same level of addictiveness.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

How is that different than every other MMOs on the market?

There's always a progressive element in this genre; it's what defines a game as an MMORPG.

If Bioware are going to replace "grind 10000 mobs" or "do 1000 quests to kill 10 x boars" with "complete a long-winded questline" are the end-game oriented players really going to care?

They'll rush through it just as fast as they typically rush through the grinding/questing to get to max level and begin their raiding/PvP. Bioware have already said the game would have these things.

Perhaps a few will whine because it's not bottable, or can't be done semi-afk in large groups .. but I doubt many people (or the developers) will be sympathetic to their viewpoint.

And for the rest of us; the ones who enjoy the journey more than the destination .. it's a HUGE improvement over current MMO mechanics. If they also add in player housing and support for roleplaying, it'll be my dream game.

Take WoW, for example. In that game, they offer you many, many different stories and, more to the point, different types of stories, from which you can pick and choose.

Or take the old SWG. In that game, there was no story at all - you made up your own by yourself or with friends. And to help you along, you could change yourself. If you were bored of being a Bounty Hunter you could be a chef and make millions with your own custom-equipped shop or perhaps you might be a creature trainer with three Grauls or else an Imperial pilot killing pirates...

Thos are just two examples of how other games differ from the one profession-one story route that Bioware seem to have chosen for TOR.

Originally posted by Lundorff

That would be bloody marvelous, but is exacly where I fear this game will fall short. It would take a herculean effort to make the amount of story drive pve content that would be required to mirror a standard amount of character grind. In a pve grind-game such as FlyFF it takes several months to reach the highest level for your class. Even for a dedicated, non-cashshop, grinder. I hope, but doubt, TOR will have the same level of addictiveness.

Dude, it's Bioware.

To quote: (Source: http://www.starwarsmmo.net/news/star-wars-the-old-republic-interview/)

"Each class is going to have its own story. Hundreds of gameplay hours that is going to be unique to each class."

At a minimalist estimate of 200 hours (based on the "hundreds" mentioned above), that's about 5 weeks for a dedicated 40/week "hardcore" (oh, how I hate that word) gamer, which is much longer than it takes to get to (for example) level 80 in WoW. As a casual 20/week gamer, that's 10 weeks.

Then there are content updates, expansions, patches.

Assuming the executive producer is an accurate source of information, then TOR ain't gonna be a slouch when it comes to "levelling content".

For me the story (both backstory aka lore and current played story) is the backbone of my enjoyment in an RPG. It is of course one element of the puzzle that MMORPGs are. And it goes without saying that the whole is only as strong as the sum of its parts. A good story is what differentiates average from good MMOs and not just in this gender. Take the RTS gender for example, who remembers all the generic games that played the same and who remembers the ones that had a great backstory to go along with it (C&C, Starcraft etc.)?

It is certainly an immersion mechanism and a game enhancement mechanism. On its own it's not enough, of course, but it reinforces all the other aspects of the game. It also, it seems, makes for a good marketing tool. In the sea of MMOs, how would one differentiate from the next?

Originally posted by hubertgrove

Take WoW, for example. In that game, they offer you many, many different stories and, more to the point, different types of stories, from which you can pick and choose.

A WoW quest is not a story. I've played WoW for 5 years, and .. well just no.

Or take the old SWG. In that game, there was no story at all - you made up your own by yourself or with friends. And to help you along, you could change yourself. If you were bored of being a Bounty Hunter you could be a chef and make millions with your own custom-equipped shop or perhaps you might be a creature trainer with three Grauls or else an Imperial pilot killing pirates...

Sandbox rhetoric; TOR is not (and is not intended to be) SWG2. You can easily switch from a Bounty Hunter to a Smuggler if you want to, you can reroll. 

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by hubertgrove

Take WoW, for example. In that game, they offer you many, many different stories and, more to the point, different types of stories, from which you can pick and choose.

A WoW quest is not a story. I've played WoW for 5 years, and .. well just no.

Or take the old SWG. In that game, there was no story at all - you made up your own by yourself or with friends. And to help you along, you could change yourself. If you were bored of being a Bounty Hunter you could be a chef and make millions with your own custom-equipped shop or perhaps you might be a creature trainer with three Grauls or else an Imperial pilot killing pirates...

Sandbox rhetoric; TOR is not (and is not intended to be) SWG2. You can easily switch from a Bounty Hunter to a Smuggler if you want to, you can reroll. 

Saying '...well, just no' doesn't change reality. There are hundreds of story-arcs in WoW. If you haven't seen any of them then perhaps there is something wrong with you..

And whoever said "TOR is.. (and is... intended to be) SWG2"? Not me. And the idea of 'switching from a Bounty Hunter to a Smuggler..." ie by destroying your character and then starting all over again is the most bizarre definition of character mutability I have ever heard. No seriously. It's farcical.

YOU MUST TURN DOWN YOUR FANBOI. IT'S SET TOO HIGH. THANKS.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

At a minimalist estimate of 200 hours (based on the "hundreds" mentioned above), that's about 5 weeks for a dedicated 40/week "hardcore" (oh, how I hate that word) gamer, which is much longer than it takes to get to (for example) level 80 in WoW. As a casual 20/week gamer, that's 10 weeks.

Yes you are correct but 10 weeks is not long in a mmo - lets hope it's on the low end and that BW are not simply hyping / exaggarating / underestimating how much play time is available.