Originally posted by Ihmotepp

If the guy without the hat  that gives him a mana boost had to sit on his butt for 2 seconds longer than yuo did waiting on mana to recharge, but you bought a hat that gives you a mana boost with real money,  that, IMO is content you skipped.

I think you can easily argue that it's not content you want to do, and that sitting on your butt doesn't ad to the game for you, etc., etc.  But that's not arguing that you didn't skip any content, that's arguing you don't LIKE the content, which is something different. 

You really do consider sitting on your butt waiting for a mana gauge to fill up to be content?

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

I'll address the points in yellow.

English is my native language. Read this thread, or any of coutless otehrs. I am not the only one that thinks RMT is not "fair" so I believe this is nothing more than an insult, and a poor one at that. Try harder.

"Legal". I can see where the confusion may come from here. My point, although unclear, is that many argue that all games have RMT, because you can buy gold from gold sellers. I'm saying yes, you can buy gold from gold sellers for games like WoW, but it's not legal, therefore not a valid argument that WoW is just like F2P because you can buy illegal gold.

RMT is not fair in my opinion because although we can both buy items, at the end of the day all characters must be measured against each other. If the characters are equal, how so? One character consists of 1,000 mobs killed and is level 5. One character consists of 500 mobs killed and is level 5 because of xp boost potions. Are those characters EXACTLY equal? IMO, no.

In P2P games, you kill 1,000 mobs and do 5 quests, you are level 5. ALL characters in the game that are level 5 will have killed 1,000 mobs and done 5 quests or the equivlanet. They are if not EXACTLY equal, very, very close, and certainly much more equal than the F2P example. That is the basis for the "unfairness" of the game, since characters cannot be measured by the same standards.

I am not concerned abotu anyone else missing out on the fun, I am concerned about ME missing out on the fun. P2P removes the challenge of the game for ME, and therefore the fun. I do NOT play the game to raid and get shinys. I play the game for the CONTENT.

You can translate time to money in the game, but the translation will always be subjective, therefore not fair.

For example, lets say you can buy a hat that gives you a sligth mana boost at the item shop. What is the price for that hat? One penny? Would that be to cheap, so cheap that ALL players could afford it so ALL players would have one? What about 800 dollars? Would that be to expensiive, so expensive that mayby only one player in the game has one?

Now, you tell me what the price should be, and then tell me how that is EXACTLY the fair price for the time that hat saves you? Any price you pick will be somewhat arbitrary, and somewhat subjective, therefore unfair.

All players MUSt kill 1,000 mobs to reach level 5. How is that subjective, or arbitrary?

First off, I will appologize on the English part.  You post at time conducive to EU nations and while I thought that I grasped your fair arguement when you toss legal into it I wanted to ask.  It was not meant as an insult and take that for what it is worth.  However, if I'm going to continue to discuss, I certainly don't want to beat a word into the ground if we are talking about a translation issue.

A post ago you mentioned that it was not about anyone else and again you talk about how all character need to be measured against each other.  If it's not about anyone else then characters don't need to be compared to each other, they don't need to head down equal paths. 

Look, I'd accept it better if you came out and said what bugged you about RMT, "people can get ahead of me without doing the same work I had to do."

That's ok, while I think that's a really silly argument, to be the king of whack a mole, but I can certainly understand it.  That's human nature, we want to compete and hate it when competitions are not fair.  However, that's your opinion and it's certainly as valid as mine, which is MMOs should be about entertainment and content you want to play. 

As for making a totally fair price, no they never will.  Becase your value for your time is different than my value for my time.  What they can balance is that a certain portion of the population does it one way, and a certain portion does it another.  At that point they have an equitable system in which you can play everything and someone else can RMT.  The key is that you can reasonably achieve the same rewards and that is the tweaking that needs to be assessed for the system to remain balanced.

As for catering to your sense of compettion, that can not be done in RMT and is a perfectly fine reason for you to avoid any RMT games (even if RMT is in whatever game you play already).

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

If the guy without the hat  that gives him a mana boost had to sit on his butt for 2 seconds longer than yuo did waiting on mana to recharge, but you bought a hat that gives you a mana boost with real money,  that, IMO is content you skipped.

I think you can easily argue that it's not content you want to do, and that sitting on your butt doesn't ad to the game for you, etc., etc.  But that's not arguing that you didn't skip any content, that's arguing you don't LIKE the content, which is something different. 

 

You really do consider sitting on your butt waiting for a mana gauge to fill up to be content?

Yep. I've met some really cool individuals from around the world in games that had mechanics that required the momentary downtimes (that aren't really as long as most people try to blow out of proportions). Meeting new people, developing those relations, be they friendly, neutral or hostile...it's all content. It's a part of the game world. It's a player made content.

Games which don't have such things have less player interactions (good and bad) and a less "active" world. I think that was a great part of games like AC, UO and EQ.

RTM/Microtransactions are for softcore gamers. Wimps.

Paying to rename your character is RMT.

Paying to transfer servers is RMT.

Paying to transfer characters to another account is RMT.

Each of those have been in many games for a very long time, without said games ever coming under the dark cloud of 'having RMT'...and yet, if they have any of the above, they do indeed have RMT. It's just that these kinds of RMT have been accepted by the majority of the gaming community as 'ok', thus they get ignored when people scream about RMT. Oh, and I'm not exactly an RMT supporter. I can rabidly foam at the mouth with the best of them over goldfarmer/spammer/seller/etc., and if I had to use money to buy something necessary for my character, I'd quit the game.

But, like most people, I have no problem with any of the above listed RMT transactions. I also have no problem with a few other forms of RMT, like absolutely and completely unnecessary fluff (cosmetic items, etc., that you never need, and if you purchase and never have to re-purchase). Anything that affects gameplay is a serious no-no for me. Paying for 'extra fluff' is one thing. Paying for anything your character should have to *WORK FOR* is another, and I find it detestable. Personal mixed-up-and-complicated-opinion (from a 'pays subs for her MMOs' type), of course.

Originally posted by Valeran

Keep the RMT to the F2P games...that is fine.  

But if im paying a premium subscription then there should not be any RMT.  That includes so called TCG loot card scam like how SOE implemented it in SWG.

 Agreed. If SOE is reading, I will never play your subscription based games with an item shop on top of that. Pure greed. I will vote no with my wallet on your greedy practices. All items even fluff should be in the game. That goes for any other games like SOEs.

I don't care.  If the pvp is unbalanced and hence not fun I quit.  The last game I did that in was WoW.  It didn't take RMT for them to create an unbalanced system where people with lots of time (a curreny in its own form) has a massive advantage.

Originally posted by horrid

I don't care.  If the pvp is unbalanced and hence not fun I quit.  The last game I did that in was WoW.  It didn't take RMT for them to create an unbalanced system where people with lots of time (a curreny in its own form) has a massive advantage.

 

Some people buy the wrong games other than what they are looking for. You can't blame the game company for people's mistakes. If someone was to want instant gratification PvP then they should play a First Person Shooter or Guild Wars. They make different types of games for different people.

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

If the guy without the hat  that gives him a mana boost had to sit on his butt for 2 seconds longer than yuo did waiting on mana to recharge, but you bought a hat that gives you a mana boost with real money,  that, IMO is content you skipped.

I think you can easily argue that it's not content you want to do, and that sitting on your butt doesn't ad to the game for you, etc., etc.  But that's not arguing that you didn't skip any content, that's arguing you don't LIKE the content, which is something different. 

 

You really do consider sitting on your butt waiting for a mana gauge to fill up to be content?

It's part of the game. What else would it be?

Originally posted by bstripp

 

Look, I'd accept it better if you came out and said what bugged you about RMT, "people can get ahead of me without doing the same work I had to do."

You might accept it better. It might be easier for you to understand. But that's no what bugs me about RMT.

I want a game that gives ME a challenge. Like kill 1000 mobs. I like lots of other things. I'd like to group while I'm killing thnose mobs, I'd like nice animations, etc., etc.

But if you put in a game mechanic that is kill 1,000 mobs, OR pay one dollar and kill 500 mobs, you've ruined the challenge and ruined the game. FOR ME, NOTHING TO DO WITH COMPETING WITH YOU.

Here's the hard part. It's really, really hard, but try to wrap your mind around it. Now, if YOU can buy your way out of the challenge, so can I.

How are you going to structure the game so it's challenging for me, but you can still buy your way to the easy route? You cannot. So, to make it easy for you, it is necessary to ruin the game for me.

Let's say you wanted a "hardcore" PvP game. Would you tell someone, well, go play WAR, but do it without any gear. That will make it hardcore! It will be exactly like playing Darkfall!

Uh, no, it won't.

Just like me playing an RMT game and not purchasing items, won't be anything like playing a game wiht no RMT. See?

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by bstripp

Look, I'd accept it better if you came out and said what bugged you about RMT, "people can get ahead of me without doing the same work I had to do."

 

You might accept it better. It might be easier for you to understand. But that's no what bugs me about RMT.

I want a game that gives ME a challenge. Like kill 1000 mobs. I like lots of other things. I'd like to group while I'm killing thnose mobs, I'd like nice animations, etc., etc.

But if you put in a game mechanic that is kill 1,000 mobs, OR pay one dollar and kill 500 mobs, you've ruined the challenge and ruined the game. FOR ME, NOTHING TO DO WITH COMPETING WITH YOU.

Here's the hard part. It's really, really hard, but try to wrap your mind around it. Now, if YOU can buy your way out of the challenge, so can I.

How are you going to structure the game so it's challenging for me, but you can still buy your way to the easy route? You cannot. So, to make it easy for you, it is necessary to ruin the game for me.

It seems like you just agreed with him that your concern is that people can get ahead of you without doing the same work you do. Either that or you're saying that you don't like RMT because you, personally, will buy your way through the game if that option is there and it reduces the challenge of the game. The latter doesn't make much sense, though. People buy items because it enhances the fun for them, so if buying items reduces the fun for you, why would you do it?

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by bstripp 

Look, I'd accept it better if you came out and said what bugged you about RMT, "people can get ahead of me without doing the same work I had to do."

 

You might accept it better. It might be easier for you to understand. But that's no what bugs me about RMT.

I want a game that gives ME a challenge. Like kill 1000 mobs. I like lots of other things. I'd like to group while I'm killing thnose mobs, I'd like nice animations, etc., etc.

But if you put in a game mechanic that is kill 1,000 mobs, OR pay one dollar and kill 500 mobs, you've ruined the challenge and ruined the game. FOR ME, NOTHING TO DO WITH COMPETING WITH YOU.

Here's the hard part. It's really, really hard, but try to wrap your mind around it. Now, if YOU can buy your way out of the challenge, so can I.

How are you going to structure the game so it's challenging for me, but you can still buy your way to the easy route? You cannot. So, to make it easy for you, it is necessary to ruin the game for me.

Let's say you wanted a "hardcore" PvP game. Would you tell someone, well, go play WAR, but do it without any gear. That will make it hardcore! It will be exactly like playing Darkfall!

Uh, no, it won't.

Just like me playing an RMT game and not purchasing items, won't be anything like playing a game wiht no RMT. See?

Then if it is not what bugs you about RMT, then why do you go to such lengths to point out how it's not fair?  If it's about your personal satisfaction and lack of self restraint (your words not mine), then it really shouldn't matter what anyone else is doing.  Each time you complain about fairness, you implicitly make the argument about the other guy getting ahead in some way that he shouldn't.

Here are some quotes from you in this thread, and I didn't look in some of the other RMT threads you are in.

"If you can skip CONTENT, it destroys fairness."

"If DIFFERENT rules apply for different players in teh same game, THEN HOW IS IT FAIR?"

"Actually, no. There are people that don't have money to buy the power ups. So not fair. F2P has a two tier system. those paying for items, those willing to be serfs because they can't afford to pay a subscription, and NOT paying for items."

"I must take every step to get to the top that he does. There is no bus, there is no helicopter, there is no short cut to skip the journey."

"RMT is not fair in my opinion because although we can both buy items, at the end of the day all characters must be measured against each other. If the characters are equal, how so? One character consists of 1,000 mobs killed and is level 5. One character consists of 500 mobs killed and is level 5 because of xp boost potions. Are those characters EXACTLY equal? IMO, no."

So I'll try and go with what you say, in that the only thing that bugs you is that you will be too tempted to skip out on content... like waiting for mana bars... which I believe you equated to content.  While I certainly could not see why anyone would be bothered about waiting for a bar to refil, it's your opinion, just don't expect too many people to jump on that bandwagon.

However, if indeed, your only worry is that you will miss out on things, can we drop the fairness arguement?  Because a lack of fairness implies that there is more to what upsets you about RMT than just missing out on things.  Why would it matter if characters are exactly equal if the only bother is you personally experiencing content?  Why do they need to be measured against each other if you are just worried about your satisfaction in seeing all the content?

See on that issue, what you have been arguing and what you are stating seem to be at odds with each other.  At least from this corner of the interweb.

Again, I can accept that people get bothered that others get ahead of them.  Usually when that kind of complain comes up, words like fair, and cheating come up a lot.  It's ingrained in us for fair competition.  However, when you start to talk about entertainment, then to me, different rules apply.  Making the experience fun comes long before any kind of artifical competition.  If RMT makes the game fun for enough people, put it in and that's great.

 Some people do not want to play games with virtual items, virtual currency for sell in the game. It is a preference that you people that want to buy gameplay will not understand. It is simple they lost my money when they add this to an existing game I am playing that doesn't have this and I will continue to avoid the games that have this from the beginning. 

I am interested in playing games to advance my character and play the content. That is what these MMORPGs are. I am not interested in real life money games. Maybe soon you guys can get single player games that take too long to beat where you can go online and purchase virtual items and skip content in them as well. 

To me when you say you need to skip content buy swiping the credit card that tells me the content in the game isn't that fun. If I found that content was so unfun in a game I felt I would rather pull out the credit card rather than play it, I would quit. If games are fun then people enjoy to be in them PLAYING them. If they are unfun .. then you quit them. Simple.

I know everyone had their own opinion, but I believe that RMT is bad all the way around.  No good can come of it.  I never want to see a mmo (any game genre for that matter) where a player's power is determined by the amount of money he/she has spent in the game.  Even in games where you can only buy weak/trivial items, I dont like it.  It makes games unbalanced.  For example, someone spends hours trying to get a certain armor piece when someone spent $2 to but it in under a minute. 

RMT IS BAD!

Originally posted by qombi

To me when you say you need to skip content buy swiping the credit card...

You keep using that phrase but you haven't presented an example of an MMO where people can do that.

Straw man?

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by bstripp

Look, I'd accept it better if you came out and said what bugged you about RMT, "people can get ahead of me without doing the same work I had to do."

 

You might accept it better. It might be easier for you to understand. But that's no what bugs me about RMT.

I want a game that gives ME a challenge. Like kill 1000 mobs. I like lots of other things. I'd like to group while I'm killing thnose mobs, I'd like nice animations, etc., etc.

But if you put in a game mechanic that is kill 1,000 mobs, OR pay one dollar and kill 500 mobs, you've ruined the challenge and ruined the game. FOR ME, NOTHING TO DO WITH COMPETING WITH YOU.

Here's the hard part. It's really, really hard, but try to wrap your mind around it. Now, if YOU can buy your way out of the challenge, so can I.

How are you going to structure the game so it's challenging for me, but you can still buy your way to the easy route? You cannot. So, to make it easy for you, it is necessary to ruin the game for me.

 

It seems like you just agreed with him that your concern is that people can get ahead of you without doing the same work you do. Either that or you're saying that you don't like RMT because you, personally, will buy your way through the game if that option is there and it reduces the challenge of the game. The latter doesn't make much sense, though. People buy items because it enhances the fun for them, so if buying items reduces the fun for you, why would you do it?

WTF People buy items cause its fun? Where the hell does anyone think its fun swiping thier credit card for a pixel? Are these causals that brain dead ? Fun give me a break its plain naive to think that buying items with RL money enhances fun no that makes them complete dolts....that and ruin the game for everyone else..

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by bstripp

 

Look, I'd accept it better if you came out and said what bugged you about RMT, "people can get ahead of me without doing the same work I had to do."

 

You might accept it better. It might be easier for you to understand. But that's no what bugs me about RMT.

I want a game that gives ME a challenge. Like kill 1000 mobs. I like lots of other things. I'd like to group while I'm killing thnose mobs, I'd like nice animations, etc., etc. So?  None of this have anything to do with RMT.

But if you put in a game mechanic that is kill 1,000 mobs, OR pay one dollar and kill 500 mobs, you've ruined the challenge and ruined the game. FOR ME, NOTHING TO DO WITH COMPETING WITH YOU.  Ruin what?  The mobs left the game so you have nothing to kill?  Or you automatically skip the mobs and pay?  Now that is interesting.  Do you really enjoy killing the 1000 or not?  If you do, why do you need to pay for it?  If you do not, why would you object to an extra option thru paying?

Here's the hard part. It's really, really hard, but try to wrap your mind around it. Now, if YOU can buy your way out of the challenge, so can I.  Then buy your way out.  Simple enough.  What is wrong with an option, an extra option?

How are you going to structure the game so it's challenging for me, but you can still buy your way to the easy route? You cannot. So, to make it easy for you, it is necessary to ruin the game for me. Someone wants to do it for fun, someone wants to skip parts of it, no conflict there.  Unless you are jealous of those who pay to skip part of it.  No one force you to buy, no one stops you from trying everything on your own.  You are trying to stop people from skipping what they do not like.  Who is ruining your game?  All the options are there for you to grind your mobs, the only thing ruining your game is your own jealousy.  Why do you bother if you enjoy your own grind?  Or if you do not enjoy the grind and hate paying to skip it, why do you bother with the game?  Jealousy again.

Let's say you wanted a "hardcore" PvP game. Would you tell someone, well, go play WAR, but do it without any gear. That will make it hardcore! It will be exactly like playing Darkfall!

Uh, no, it won't.

Just like me playing an RMT game and not purchasing items, won't be anything like playing a game wiht no RMT. See?  So playing a game with RMT means you must buy?  How about playing a game with 20 crafting options, 2100 reputaion grinds, and so on.  Will you feel compelled to do them all to be competitive?  For christ sake, play the portion you enjoy, and skip the rest.

Apart from raw jealous, I see no motivation behind your long hours of moaning here.  As for jealous, there is no cure.  You know that I guess.

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by bstripp

Look, I'd accept it better if you came out and said what bugged you about RMT, "people can get ahead of me without doing the same work I had to do."

 

You might accept it better. It might be easier for you to understand. But that's no what bugs me about RMT.

I want a game that gives ME a challenge. Like kill 1000 mobs. I like lots of other things. I'd like to group while I'm killing thnose mobs, I'd like nice animations, etc., etc.

But if you put in a game mechanic that is kill 1,000 mobs, OR pay one dollar and kill 500 mobs, you've ruined the challenge and ruined the game. FOR ME, NOTHING TO DO WITH COMPETING WITH YOU.

Here's the hard part. It's really, really hard, but try to wrap your mind around it. Now, if YOU can buy your way out of the challenge, so can I.

How are you going to structure the game so it's challenging for me, but you can still buy your way to the easy route? You cannot. So, to make it easy for you, it is necessary to ruin the game for me.

 

It seems like you just agreed with him that your concern is that people can get ahead of you without doing the same work you do. Either that or you're saying that you don't like RMT because you, personally, will buy your way through the game if that option is there and it reduces the challenge of the game. The latter doesn't make much sense, though. People buy items because it enhances the fun for them, so if buying items reduces the fun for you, why would you do it?

yeah the only thing I can read out of Imhotepp's long paragraph is jealousy.

"Mom, that boy has a big sports car, and I only have a candie bar"

Originally posted by firefly2003

WTF People buy items cause its fun? Where the hell does anyone think its fun swiping thier credit card for a pixel? Are these causals that brain dead ? Fun give me a break its plain naive to think that buying items with RL money enhances fun no that makes them complete dolts....that and ruin the game for everyone else..

This coming from the person that finds purchased pixels so important that he has put a 2.5 Meg animated GIF in his post that was created solely for the purpose of expressing his concern for how trading cards devalue his pixels.

Buying items enhances fun? Hell, yeah! A Canadian friend of mine started playing Combat Arms so I bought him a hat for his character with a Canadian flag on it. Every now and then I dump a few bucks in the SOE Marketplace for my Wife so she can buy more weird crap for her character and its house. BTW, she's got a pretty badass looking Ranger suit on that mouse rogue of hers.  And if it's 'brain dead' for me to spend $5 on a new bamboo fishing pole for my Florensia character, then such is life. It amuses me and costs next to nothing for said amusement.

But that aside, you might want to drop the argument about 'swiping a credit card for pixels' because you're either a hypocrite or you've never played a subscription MMO. ;) 

Signed,

The complete dolt with cool hats on all his F2P characters

Cheers!

Originally posted by qombi

To me when you say you need to skip content buy swiping the credit card that tells me the content in the game isn't that fun. If I found that content was so unfun in a game I felt I would rather pull out the credit card rather than play it, I would quit. If games are fun then people enjoy to be in them PLAYING them. If they are unfun .. then you quit them. Simple.

Well there is some truth to this, however, like everything you can't paint an absolute. 

Perhaps the first time you run through something it is fun.  Maybe even the second.  However, being forced to do the same thing over and over gets bad.  Now perhaps there is a part of the game that is beyond this repetitive roadblock that I enjoy.  Instead of quitting, I simply pay some money to get by the parts I don't want to play the parts I do.  Obviously, if there is nothing worth playing in the game then there is no point in playing.  That's a given.  However, devs do a lot of odd things to add "content" to the game.

There are many PvP players who will happily pay to skip the PvE grind so they can get to the end game and participate in the PvP.  Why?  Because they find no entertainment in the Grind portion of the game.  They also realize that they usually have to be max level if they want anything close to a fair fight.  Look at guild wars, the biggest complaint from the PvP crowd was that it took too long to unlock.  When they released the unlock packs, people were very happy.

There are people who come to a game late, but want to play with their friends who are a higher level.  Sure they can sit around and be power leveled, but is that really fun for either of them?  Usually not.  The PL'er does monotonous killing.  The PL'ee wanders off and watches an eppisode of Lost.  That's not good entertainment.  If the PL'ee could pay to get their levels up, the problem is solved and the devs get more resources to devote to end game content.

Those are all very good reasons to allow RMT to bypass content.  Remember your idea of fun likely does not match someone elses.  I can think of many other scenarios where people would want to bypass a part of a game, however there is only one where I can think of why people would be against it.

The only people who get upset are those that still tend to think that their achievement in whack a mole is somehow worthy or important to anyone other than themselves.  Therefore, anyone who bypasses the challenge, slights them and what they have done. 

I have yet to hear any other argument... other than Ihmotep's kind of amusing "I have no self control, so RMT is bad" reason to keep RMT out of a game.  As long as it's done in a decent and balanced fashion, it should be nothing more than a win to the player base.