So this game wont be a sandbox MMORPG but rather a heavy instanced game like LOTR and focused on PvE? Dissapointing but not very surprising I must say.

LOTRO is heavily instanced? Compared to what?

Originally posted by Xasapis

LOTRO is heavily instanced? Compared to what?

I think he means as far as storyline stuff goes.  All The storyline missions are instanced in LOTRO.  If I had to pick the best way to describe how I think this game will turn out as far as open/instanced world I'd pick LOTRO.  Good comparison in my opinion based off of the limited info we have so far.

Originally posted by Vrazule

I don't want a typical MMORPG experience, gawd, as if this genre isn't stagnant enough already.  I'm so very disappointed that they are even putting in raid content.  As usual, in order to give raiding meaning, they will have to make the rest of the content crap in comparison or no one will do it.  Just once, I wish a developer would have the balls to put out a AAA MMO with absolutely no hardcore content at all, casual content would be king of the hill, just once.

This game was my last hope for continuing to involve myself with the genre.  I'll wait and see if they end up treating raiders better than casuals.  If they do, then I'm done.  I'm tired of waiting for a game that gives casuals the highest progression.  I'll head back to single player games and  my Xbox and never look back.

"...a AAA MMO with absolutely no hardcore content at all, casual content would be king of the hill..."

It's called Free Realms.

Aimed aty 4-10 year olds.

Originally posted by MindTrigger

This is from Dana Massey's new article posted today.  It's a quote that I have been saying on these and the SWTOR boards for a while now, and no one will listen.  He saw the game at E3 and had this to say:

"Bioware’s Star Wars: The Old Republic looks a heck of a lot like a cooperative single-player RPG."

This is the game everyone here is touting as the "savior of the MMO genre".  Really?  A game that looks and plays like a single player RPG is going to save MMORPG games? A game with henchmen?  This is not a troll post.  I am hoping we can have some real discussion here about what constitutes a true MMORPG, and what is just an MMOG.  In my mind, SWToR unfortunately looks like an MMOG, not an open world MMORPG where people are free to forge a memorable adventure.  It seems like it's going to be the purist most sanitary theme-park game ever concieved of, leaving little else to do than run quests and maybe chat a little. This is a true bummer in my mind.

Who cares about "true" MMORPG? TOR sounds like a fun game. May be more SP elements are what needed to make better games. So far from what I have heard, TOR sounds great and exactly the kind of game i want to play.

MMORPGs are trending towards more solo-friendly, less restrictive in terms of grouping and offer more choices. TOR sounds like a logical next step of that trend. Well, if it is not "pure" MMORPG in some people's mind, so be it. Call it something else and let's move on in anticipation of a good or even a great game.

It's no big mystery why game developers are afraid to innovate... Nobody want's a WoW Clone, but if you do anything out of the norm, try to introduce anything new, and suddenly you're not being true to the genre, you no longer fit into some peoples narrow definition of what an MMORPG "should" be.

It's upsetting to me for too reason.  Human ignorance just gets me down as a whole.  Second, I'm a gamer, and I want new games with awesome innovation, I want developers to be able to try new things, to shake things up.  It's better for everyone as a whole.   Will it always work?  Of course not.  But shouldn't we wait and see rather than rant and complain about a game when virtually NOTHING is known about the actual gameplay?  That's just stupid.

Interesting interview here www.mmogamer.com/06/11/2009/a-new-hope-for-mmos

I think a lot of the concerns about lack of group play are unfounded.  Some of the devs say they love raiding while some say they love the alt route, they want to have both. The more I read about this game the more I like the sound of it.

Daniel Erickson: Very rarely have I ever heard anyone who was into MMOs say, “You know what I really like about the combat? The fact that it feels slow.”

James Ohlen: I can understand some of the concerns. It’s been very difficult, and it’s taken a lot of effort to get our combat system right.

It’s a very complex system. You’ll notice when you get into a battle, there’ll be classes with lightsabers deflecting, and we have to have all sorts of animation blending, and state managers, and all sorts of tech that allows the characters to do what they do when they’re in combat.

It’s much easier to just say “I’m going to play this animation when I attack something,” but we didn’t want to go down that way.

[said in a joking tone of voice] So we just got boatloads of money and we did something else! [laughing]

Originally posted by hubertgrove

Originally posted by Vrazule

I don't want a typical MMORPG experience, gawd, as if this genre isn't stagnant enough already.  I'm so very disappointed that they are even putting in raid content.  As usual, in order to give raiding meaning, they will have to make the rest of the content crap in comparison or no one will do it.  Just once, I wish a developer would have the balls to put out a AAA MMO with absolutely no hardcore content at all, casual content would be king of the hill, just once.

This game was my last hope for continuing to involve myself with the genre.  I'll wait and see if they end up treating raiders better than casuals.  If they do, then I'm done.  I'm tired of waiting for a game that gives casuals the highest progression.  I'll head back to single player games and  my Xbox and never look back.

 

"...a AAA MMO with absolutely no hardcore content at all, casual content would be king of the hill..."

It's called Free Realms.

Aimed aty 4-10 year olds.

There's nothing AAA about Free Realms and even if it was, I will never play a micro transaction / cash shop based business mode  MMO.  Yes, you can subscribe for 5 bucks a month in Free Realms, but you still have to use the cash shop for much of the cool stuff and on top of that, I don't want to play a childish game.  Casual does not equal childish.

If Bioware had just steered away from raiding, this could have been a really great casual game.  Guess that even innovative developers can remain obnoxiously stuck on old school MMO paradigms.  If by some miracle, they don't treat raiders better than other types of players, then I could see myself subscribing for a very long time.

Originally posted by Vrazule

Originally posted by hubertgrove

Originally posted by Vrazule

I don't want a typical MMORPG experience, gawd, as if this genre isn't stagnant enough already.  I'm so very disappointed that they are even putting in raid content.  As usual, in order to give raiding meaning, they will have to make the rest of the content crap in comparison or no one will do it.  Just once, I wish a developer would have the balls to put out a AAA MMO with absolutely no hardcore content at all, casual content would be king of the hill, just once.

This game was my last hope for continuing to involve myself with the genre.  I'll wait and see if they end up treating raiders better than casuals.  If they do, then I'm done.  I'm tired of waiting for a game that gives casuals the highest progression.  I'll head back to single player games and  my Xbox and never look back.

 

"...a AAA MMO with absolutely no hardcore content at all, casual content would be king of the hill..."

It's called Free Realms.

Aimed aty 4-10 year olds.

 

There's nothing AAA about Free Realms and even if it was, I will never play a micro transaction / cash shop based business mode  MMO.  Yes, you can subscribe for 5 bucks a month in Free Realms, but you still have to use the cash shop for much of the cool stuff and on top of that, I don't want to play a childish game.  Casual does not equal childish.

If Bioware had just steered away from raiding, this could have been a really great casual game.  Guess that even innovative developers can remain obnoxiously stuck on old school MMO paradigms.  If by some miracle, they don't treat raiders better than other types of players, then I could see myself subscribing for a very long time.

If they stay away from the holy trinity with only minor heals, each class good at defense and offense just on different things and in different ways then pugs would be much more pheasible, meaning casual raiding.

Not saying that's how they've planned it, just that it is possible.

Originally posted by hubertgrove 

"...a AAA MMO with absolutely no hardcore content at all, casual content would be king of the hill..."

It's called Free Realms.

Aimed aty 4-10 year olds.

And last I heard it already had more than 3 million subscribers.

It's all this "stiry this, story that" and whatnot that makes me iffy... Well, that and classes. You can't really define the heroes of the old Star Wars into classes.

But anyway, when I enter a RPG game, I'm looking to create my own story, and in some MMO's one could, because they werent quest driven.

I don't feel very immersed in killing "King Oberon", despite that the questgiver calls me a hero for doing it. 1000's have killed "King Oberon", and you don't really become a hero by mindlessly do what everyone else is doing... You become a clone or a copycat.

And SWTOR, wich is supposed to be so storydriven... Falls just into that trap for me. Yes I might be able to pick a different choice during a mission, but no matter choice, so did 1000's of others.

So, the story won't be mine.. It's a story forced on me by some writer... And my character wont be mine either, since he's a "class" person.

So despite loving that another Star Wars MMO and game is on the brink of arriving, I can't but feel sad... Because once again, they put me in a book to play through(like reading it), and not a "universe" to live in and make my own story.. something Star Wars(and most other lore based universes) are so much built for.

So I'll try SWTOR, to get my Star Wars fix, but I doubt I'd manage to hang around, because I could pretty much just pick up a book in the bookshop for the same experience... Told a story.

In games like WoW and such, everyone always complains about wanting new stuff to be thrown in, stuff to be shaken up a bit and a story. Now that SWTOR actually is adding this stuff in, a whole lotta people start flaming the game, saying how disgusted they are about the possibility of soloing. Please, name me 1 game where you cannot solo?!

I reckon this game is gonna be the new best thing. I find that when i play mmo's i dont always wanna be in a group. I mean... its the game experience as a whole rather than constant grouping and mad instances all the time?

I've also actually read that there are a whole lotta instances and pvp and such and such... so i reckon, do the story, then once you got the content kick ass in the other stuff the game will hopefuly offer :D

ok, now woflmann... Surely you play an mmorpg not to make your own story...? go play KOTOR (which is the sickest game in the history of the world) and make yer own one up :D The great thing bout this game *hopefully* is that it will integrate RPG stories and influences to a whole massive world in which you can interact with other people, get gear, and overall establish your roll as a Jedi (all hail jedi!) Buut thats just my perspective :P

I dunno, maybe im just being an idiot talking crap about random stuff... i for one, am extremely excited about this game, so to finish of i ask this:

Whens it coming out?!?!?!?!?! *darting eyes* and will there be a monthly payment? ...

well thats me

seeya ^^

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by hubertgrove 

"...a AAA MMO with absolutely no hardcore content at all, casual content would be king of the hill..."

It's called Free Realms.

Aimed aty 4-10 year olds.

 

And last I heard it already had more than 3 million subscribers.

Yep, game may be geared towards kids and families that game together, but it's kicking SWG pre-cu ass all over the place. To me that tells me that the vet sandboxer  mentality is in the minority. I hope TOR doesn't appeal to any of those pre-cuftw players that continue to whine and troll, the game will be better without them.IMHO theywere the ones who bitched constantly on the SOE forums to the point where they game ended up in the suckier spot it's in today.

Originally posted by MindTrigger

This is from Dana Massey's new article posted today.  It's a quote that I have been saying on these and the SWTOR boards for a while now, and no one will listen.  He saw the game at E3 and had this to say:

"Bioware’s Star Wars: The Old Republic looks a heck of a lot like a cooperative single-player RPG."

This is the game everyone here is touting as the "savior of the MMO genre".  Really?  A game that looks and plays like a single player RPG is going to save MMORPG games? A game with henchmen?  This is not a troll post.  I am hoping we can have some real discussion here about what constitutes a true MMORPG, and what is just an MMOG.  In my mind, SWToR unfortunately looks like an MMOG, not an open world MMORPG where people are free to forge a memorable adventure.  It seems like it's going to be the purist most sanitary theme-park game ever concieved of, leaving little else to do than run quests and maybe chat a little. This is a true bummer in my mind.

I agree with your sentiments.  I think far from being the 'savior of the MMO genre' it could be just the opposite.  Because it is from a very well respected developer, and because it has high production values, is Star Wars, and the previous single player rpg games have established a loyal fanbase, this game could release to great commercial success.

And like WOW, that commercial success could eclipse the actual contribution of the game in advancing the MMORPG genre forward.  What could happen is what happened after WOW; other developers looking to cash in will emulate SWTOR, leaving us with years and years of SWTOR clones.  That wouldn't be so bad if SWTOR didn't seem to be the almost antithesis of what the MMORPG genre stands for.

Originally posted by Terranah

Originally posted by MindTrigger

This is from Dana Massey's new article posted today.  It's a quote that I have been saying on these and the SWTOR boards for a while now, and no one will listen.  He saw the game at E3 and had this to say:

"Bioware’s Star Wars: The Old Republic looks a heck of a lot like a cooperative single-player RPG."

This is the game everyone here is touting as the "savior of the MMO genre".  Really?  A game that looks and plays like a single player RPG is going to save MMORPG games? A game with henchmen?  This is not a troll post.  I am hoping we can have some real discussion here about what constitutes a true MMORPG, and what is just an MMOG.  In my mind, SWToR unfortunately looks like an MMOG, not an open world MMORPG where people are free to forge a memorable adventure.  It seems like it's going to be the purist most sanitary theme-park game ever concieved of, leaving little else to do than run quests and maybe chat a little. This is a true bummer in my mind.

 

I agree with your sentiments.  I think far from being the 'savior of the MMO genre' it could be just the opposite.  Because it is from a very well respected developer, and because it has high production values, is Star Wars, and the previous single player rpg games have established a loyal fanbase, this game could release to great commercial success.

 

And like WOW, that commercial success could eclipse the actual contribution of the game in advancing the MMORPG genre forward.  What could happen is what happened after WOW; other developers looking to cash in will emulate SWTOR, leaving us with years and years of SWTOR clones.  That wouldn't be so bad if SWTOR didn't seem to be the almost antithesis of what the MMORPG genre stands for.

And the thing is, I learned long ago as a SWG vet, and so did a lot of others (a few haven't yet) that we were in the minority. And by minority I mean like players who actually liked, and were still stuck on the days of pre-cu swg and UO. The industry has changed, but our opinions of what we enjoyed did not. Maybe we are excessive compulsive types, IDK. Thing is I got over that a while back. Now I'm ready to move on. Do games these days have everything I want? nope. I can get over that and enjoy most games for what they are though. I'm not a fan of WoW only because I am not a fan of Fantasy swords and bow type games anymore, but A good sci-fi with a big IP is enough for me.

We still do not know enough about this game to say what things are in it that vets might like. It sounds like space, housing, crafting, resource gathering, economy are in. They have an open world with vast draw distances based on a description in an article I read, and instances with zero visible loading. They have a type of system in the game for stats that will allow you to differentiate yourself from others, like KOTOR, but more complex I assume. There is a light/darkside system, still no word on how Jedi works beyond that yet. There is tons of clothes and armor, weapons for each class.

SO really, if you can get over the old ways of thinking, this game might just have a little something in it for everybody. Is it going to have everything you want in it? Nope, but then that would be selfish since there are many other types of players, and we all want something different and TBH you can’t have it all without each system effecting he other.

Originally posted by MindTrigger

This is from Dana Massey's new article posted today.  It's a quote that I have been saying on these and the SWTOR boards for a while now, and no one will listen.  He saw the game at E3 and had this to say:

"Bioware’s Star Wars: The Old Republic looks a heck of a lot like a cooperative single-player RPG."

This is the game everyone here is touting as the "savior of the MMO genre".  Really?  A game that looks and plays like a single player RPG is going to save MMORPG games? A game with henchmen?  This is not a troll post.  I am hoping we can have some real discussion here about what constitutes a true MMORPG, and what is just an MMOG.  In my mind, SWToR unfortunately looks like an MMOG, not an open world MMORPG where people are free to forge a memorable adventure.  It seems like it's going to be the purist most sanitary theme-park game ever concieved of, leaving little else to do than run quests and maybe chat a little. This is a true bummer in my mind.

It's immaterial what you think about a purely subjective point of view - which is what an MMO is.  Too many folk are assuming too much at this moment in time, and just looking for something to bash without any qualifying information.

The whole thread is moot.

 The way I look at this subject is if the worst that happens with this game is it is just a really good single player rpg with a chat room and very little co-op play than I will play it until i hit the end of the story and resub when a new expansion comes out. That is still pretty good to me. 

i wont pay a subscription to a game that is basically guild wars with a star wars skin. group with your friends and go into your own instanced version of the world, no way will i pay for that monthly.

Originally posted by hubertgrove

Originally posted by Doomsayer

Eh...if its more like a single player game, so what? I'll just play it like one. MMORPGs aren't the only games I play. And when I am done with most of the content. I will quit playing it, like I do single player RPGs.

However, I don't think it will be so limited as you suggest. If the game played exactly like a single player RPG where you could occasionaly have a few friends help you would not justify the monthly subscription. I don't think people would play it very long. They would chew through most the content and move on if there isnt MORE to do, like open world areas, instances, PvP, etc.

I do not see Bioware making that kind of mistake if they are choosing a similar buisness model to most other MMORPGs. Now if there is no monthly subscription, or you pay for additional content, like Guild Wars...all bets are off.

 

I don't know, the Single Player RPG Online with Multiplayer Hubs model does seem to make commercial sense.

Firstly, it will be much smaller than most MMOs, that means less cost to construct and maintain

Secondly, by adding a new free 'chapter' every two months and a new paid 'expansion every four or six months, you get an end-game going that actually BOOSTS revenue.

and rapes your wallet.

Although I do sympathise with those who wnt a sandbox style game, what you have to realise is that your in the minority. It sells to be given a story than create one and in actuality even though you might protest it isnt a bad thing. Yeh you have to play a pre-written path in a way but you also shape your destiny in this game and in fact this way you will actually see the changes happen around you. From what bioware are saying, certain areas of the game will be instanced thus allowing the impacts of your choices to be clearly visible. I disagree that it seems to be a coop single player, we have yet to see a huge amount of the game, they have announced that they want raiding etc, just because the playable demo of the game allowed 2 players to coop was just a demostration of the group mechanics they are using and to get feedback.