Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by hubertgrove

Originally posted by nariusseldon

 

Very simple. Because most people do NOT want worlds. They want games. The huge success of Diablo shows that a lot of people want simple hack-n-slash and a real virtual world is not really that important.

And grind is NOT a bad thing. Just look at Las Vegas and how many spend hours pulling slot machines? There is psychology literature showing that a simple grind/reward mechanism is what many people want.

 

 

The huge success of Dialblo shows that people want hack and slash games...

...But the huge success of Second Life, The Sims and Civ shows they DO want worlds.

In other words, different people want different things - and the appetite for game worlds seems to be just as strong as for games that are just games.

 

The SIMS online flopped and died. Arguably people playing SIMS want to have cute pets and big mansions and not worlds. Civ is a strategic game, it does NOT have virtual worlds.

I question the success of SL. It is essentially an online red light district. I don't think people want a world in SL. I think they want porn.

 

OK, how about Eve, how about Rhyzom, how about Metaverse....

Please don't tell me that these too are not also 'virtual worlds' rather than 'just games'. Sorry mate but there are people out there who want different things than the things you want.

This thread delivers.

From my perspective, what holds the gaming industry as a whole, (not just mmo's) are the marketing people. We started to see more dumb down, boring and repetitive game play the day the marketing department and psychologist took the place of "real" creative game designers. I've worked for EA and several years for Ubisoft before becoming an indi developer 3 years ago so i saw it from the inside. You wouldn't believe how pathetic it can become when some poor bastard is fighting to keep his ground ideas intact, then gets shafted by incompetents greedy nobody's with a marketing diploma who believe everything in life revolves around his flat world.

It is true that investors wants a return on their investment. But it is also true that at some point, you must take some risk in order to push the industry forwards. Christopher Colombus needed someone with some vision to finance his expedition. Same can be said about the gaming industry, except that it's been taken so much for fast food for the longest time, that nobody thinks about doing something great anymore. Just about racking some cash, as if gaining money should be more then just another mundane daily task. I know i can be happy myself without being rich, so long as i can create to my hearts desire. The gaming world will become great again when you see people like me (and a lot of other folks posting in this thread) in charge of it. Might never happen. Wish that it does, and support us when you can if you truly want a change.

I personally believe that the world is not flat, and that people who have make this planet evolve since the beginning must step forward and take things in their own hands if they're not happy about it's current state. Else, you're just asking to keep getting submerged  into eternity by those abject failure they dare calling "games".

P.S. Great thread with a lot of food for thought.

This thread does make me think along the lines of making an anology comparing a large group of mature comfortable biker types preferring a classic Harley Davison as opposed to an extremly large group of very young and often ADD types who want a new flashy rice rocket every other month.

Both markets are there and both seem to be somewhat successful....the missing factor here in the MMO biz, is a company that has yet to deliver and then stick to their guns satisfying a million gamers wanting one thing while ignoring the screams and cries of 5 million + who want the flash in the pants.     so to speak.

Originally posted by Mwaji

WoW is a great game but its not a great MMO, think about what MMORPGS have become now. I mean you join a game with thousands of players per server, you immediately ignore them, and jump in a 10 man with 9 other jerks who ninja your gear. Why not just play a single player game then, would not Playing Icewind Dale provide the same benifit? Why subjegate MMOs with your will to turn them into a 5 to 10 man party game for just you and your friends?

That is the point. People want great games. Who cares if it is a MMO or not?

Plus, i have enough frds playing WOW that it is enjoyable. What is wrong with a 5/10/25 man game with a good chat channel & auction house? That is the way to go as WOW has shown the way.

I didn't read all posts, no time.

BUT I think some of you aren't taking into account US, the players. Everything to make a vibrant mmo game world is already at developers hands but its us that make it a distant likelihood.

Why? Graphics or art style.

The game market is divided into those that like a certain type of graphics or art style in a game. Examples:

Me: I just can't stand cartoon style mmos like WoW. There is nothing artistical about it, nothing unique, innovative, original in that style.

Guytwo: I hate graphics that are real like (Vanguard, AOC, etc). I can't stand them, etc etc.

I would play a game with real like graphics and Guytwo wouldn't play it, and vice versa.

When a company decides on an art style it follows a path some gamers want but others don't.

This may be true or not but remember when Diablo 3(don't really understand the deal with that game or starcraft 2, there are better games out there) was announced and some screenshots were released? There was an immidiate ridiculous and stupid online petition by fans to change it. In the end it was changed and the director or some employee from that department was fired.

Here's something to consider.

We know that Joe likes to be a Hero in the games he plays and we know that Bill likes to be a trader / crafter. We know that Joe is the majority and Bill is the minority.

So, let us assume that Bill's minority is 1% of people, for every one hundred people you come across in an MMO you will find one person in that hundred who likes to trade / craft.

Now the NA / EU market is easily around 10 million people now, probably more (though I doubt all are active MMOs at the moment).

So you're targetting Bill's minority, it is 1%, that is 100,000 potential players in the market. It is an MMO though and it has combat, so it will attract a few Heroes too, which means some of Joe's majority will join in too.

If you are aiming for 100,000 subscriptions, then there is no reason you can't obtain 100,000 subscriptions. A niche game is anything that targets a minority, the minority is anything less than 50%, so even just hitting NA / EU you shouldn't have any problems finding people ot play the game.

Naturally if you think smart and design it to easily port to other languages you can open up the 100+ million people in the Asian markets too.

Originally posted by bobfish

Here's something to consider.

We know that Joe likes to be a Hero in the games he plays and we know that Bill likes to be a trader / crafter. We know that Joe is the majority and Bill is the minority.

So, let us assume that Bill's minority is 1% of people, for every one hundred people you come across in an MMO you will find one person in that hundred who likes to trade / craft.

Now the NA / EU market is easily around 10 million people now, probably more (though I doubt all are active MMOs at the moment).

So you're targetting Bill's minority, it is 1%, that is 100,000 potential players in the market. It is an MMO though and it has combat, so it will attract a few Heroes too, which means some of Joe's majority will join in too.

If you are aiming for 100,000 subscriptions, then there is no reason you can't obtain 100,000 subscriptions. A niche game is anything that targets a minority, the minority is anything less than 50%, so even just hitting NA / EU you shouldn't have any problems finding people ot play the game.

Naturally if you think smart and design it to easily port to other languages you can open up the 100+ million people in the Asian markets too.

That scale can definitely work and could set up a small elite crew/team with very good income if executed well. If the game is diverse enough, well coded with a catchy storyline...devs that flake out on their promises in beta or especially after the game releases or outright ignores the pulse of their fan clubs and testers Then success can be had.

How many times with these other failed projects have the public (testers etc) let us know that "hey these devs are flat out ignoring us again" ETC.???

How many times have we heard (about these failed and near dead games) "This CSR just plain don't give a shite" or "Dayum..I know more about this game than this CSR does"?? Man, there is a large portion of us that are not fooled anymore...devs, stop with the lazy coding...CSR's- stop with the "I just can't wait to get off of work" attitude. The people running some of these flops need to hire some quality peeps and pay them well...just a few well trained and well taken care of staff members can produce some solid quality schtuff.

And to your comment Bobfish-I have been gaming a long time now, played with thousands of different players from my guild and many others, read the chat, listened to facts opinions and that 1% is an extremely low end figure. Going from what I know (the gamers I have played with)  There are many who will play the roles of "the hero" combined with playing the roles of "the crafter/trader". So from my personal 10 year+ experience my estimates would bring that % up to more of a 10-20% mark. And from that of course the rest would be up to the producer and it's execution. But I know first hand the market is there....

Most in my guild and the others I know have been calling the last few years "The dark age of MMO's" as the majority of this niche keep looking for a new place to call their MMO home. many came from UO, played and enjoyed SWG-preCU (untill the CU and NGE which was the nail for most of this niche), tried Dark and Light and hoped and was let down..Vanguard (many left when SOE took over which drastically changed the quality and direction of the game and gave us horrid CSR service), Had hopes that War Hammer could tide us over or turn into more of the full flavor we desired (it did not deliver).

Now with a small number still playing SWG (or be bored). A small number still in Vangard (and that small number is one of the largest guilds in that very under populated game). AoC was filled with promises (then let downs when undelivered on). We currently just pulled our plug and hopes for War Hammer. Some now are playing EVE (temp or be bored) and awaiting on AION (or either playing on the Chinese server/testing for NA release). AION is a pretty cool game but it still lacks on several elements that the OP hit on.

The point is there is a market of players out there (numbers can be debated on till the sun don't shine) but these players feel like they are in a sort of limbo pertaining to the MMO's available currently.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Mwaji

WoW is a great game but its not a great MMO, think about what MMORPGS have become now. I mean you join a game with thousands of players per server, you immediately ignore them, and jump in a 10 man with 9 other jerks who ninja your gear. Why not just play a single player game then, would not Playing Icewind Dale provide the same benifit? Why subjegate MMOs with your will to turn them into a 5 to 10 man party game for just you and your friends?

 

That is the point. People want great games. Who cares if it is a MMO or not?

Plus, i have enough frds playing WOW that it is enjoyable. What is wrong with a 5/10/25 man game with a good chat channel & auction house? That is the way to go as WOW has shown the way.

And the most played game is all: it can be played as an mmoRPG, it can be played as a fun instanced game with a 20 minute BG, it can be played as anything.
 

With one character I play the end game in Raids, with one character I play the BG's stuck at lvl 79 (super twink), with one character I play world PvP (call it ganking). with one character I go for Chief cooking. with one character I play the business man on the AH., with one character I just do RP and go to weddings and BBQ 's.... Woth one character I play it like SEcond Life and just chat in the channels ... Or I could even combine it all.

It is about time SOME people open their eyes. Hell, I could play my game from ANY angle...

That's the secret, Diablo will not give me.

Who says so I NEED to do anything. You can have a fun time without even entering a 25 man Raid or d5 man dungeon.

In fact the vast majority does ik like that.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Mwaji

WoW is a great game but its not a great MMO, think about what MMORPGS have become now. I mean you join a game with thousands of players per server, you immediately ignore them, and jump in a 10 man with 9 other jerks who ninja your gear. Why not just play a single player game then, would not Playing Icewind Dale provide the same benifit? Why subjegate MMOs with your will to turn them into a 5 to 10 man party game for just you and your friends?

 

That is the point. People want great games. Who cares if it is a MMO or not?

Plus, i have enough frds playing WOW that it is enjoyable. What is wrong with a 5/10/25 man game with a good chat channel & auction house? That is the way to go as WOW has shown the way.

And the most played game is all: it can be played as an mmoRPG, it can be played as a fun instanced game with a 20 minute BG, it can be played as anything.
 

With one character I play the end game in Raids, with one character I play the BG's stuck at lvl 79 (super twink), with one character I play world PvP (call it ganking). with one character I go for Chief cooking. with one character I play the business man on the AH., with one character I just do RP and go to weddings and BBQ 's.... Woth one character I play it like SEcond Life and just chat in the channels ... Or I could even combine it all.

It is about time SOME people open their eyes. Hell, I could play my game from ANY angle...

That's the secret, Diablo will not give me.

Who says so I NEED to do anything. You can have a fun time without even entering a 25 man Raid or d5 man dungeon.

In fact the vast majority does ik like that.

Those elements don't cover the outline the OP set. So far in WoW you play in a world owned and ran by the NPC's/AI as opposed to playing in a world ran and owned by the players.

For players with plenty of free time,money and high IQ's and dont have much problems with ADD type mentalities (not that there arent these types playing WoW) WoW falls way short of any challenges. AI is easy to get the low down on and then defeat over and over while a sandbox type of game offers unlimited challenges as you are immersed in a game that interaction with other players is a constant and evolving, unpredictable at times MMO chess match with areas that I/we can create protect and govern and even loose if your not careful. I played WoW the first year it came out and it put me to sleep...if it's evolved since then then good but I know it's not at a point where it offers these other elements.

WoW ran well and I can say it's a good game (if you like being in a limiting MMO world..I don't) However if Blizzard focused a smaller budget for a sandbox type game and ofered these elements then I would be one of the first to become interested in it.

Originally posted by markyturnip

 

 

There have been many compelling fictional representations of what the great MMOs of the future could be - you know, large non-instanced contiguous worlds where people hang out and form vibrant communities, build cities and keeps, wage long multi-faceted campaigns against their opponents; where pvp happens all over the place, sometimes in huge numbers, sometimes in small epic struggles; where people craft fun stuff, unearth hidden secrets, explore the paths less trodden; where there is a sense of adventure rather than grind, of epic size yet tight communities, personal progression, yet realm-wide struggles; where genuine relationships are formed, creativity is encouraged etc etc

WoW was a passing first approximation, and was - whatever the haters say - the closest thing yet to a great MMORPG, but obviously falls below this standard on many level (no player housing! no guild halls! no real world city sieges! etc); and a slew of recent games have gone shockingly backwards in terms of the quality of product on offer (WAR, AOC - games far less accomplished than a game made four years before them).

What's going on?

I remain convinced this amazing genuine living breathing MMO is possible. iS more than just a pipe dream. Yet why are we faced with such a staggering string of pathetic duds?

Is it simply that today's networking technology can't cope? Or is it that the market won't support such a large endeavour? Or is there a fundamental lack of ambition?

I would love to hear opinions from people who have a clear sense of the industry right now. Wgy are we gaced with such an endless procession of turkeys?

Amazing post.

I think there is a great potential here in creating a really interesting massive game world. Someone should re-think how servers are used.

Today "mmo" elements are being slapped on as a matter of fact without re-thinking their place in the game world. Raids, instances, mini-games like capture the flag - all that is added for players have something to do - instead of incorporating all these things in a live game world. It is like you log into a big empty world because all your peers are in small mini-games outside of the world you walk in - so either you can join them or go around alone...

I would love to see a game where the world is created so that the stories spring out from the game world and the action too - with more complex guild and allegiance models than good versus evil. Where diplomacy and subterfuge could play a larger part. And where there were real consequences to the game world.

Players should build all the equipment and even the housing and everything around them. I never understood that players who like action are so threatened by others who like to built things in the game world. It should really just make it more interesting. While SWG had many problems, I have to say I never met so many cool gamers. I think the crowd was different from the mmo crowd today. I think it attracted a different sort of players, a mix of hardcore mmo'ers, newbies to the genre, but also those who would rather play SIM CITIES than UNREAL TOURNAMENT.

Flexibility and integration are key words for a vibrant game world.

The above is also why I am dismissive about SW:TOR because while a linear game may entertain a lot of people, it doesn't really make for a mmorpg! And just like with WAR and AoC most of the players who now say they love the concept of SW:TOR, these players will probably be the ones crying the most when they realize at launch what a "story"-based game really is for Bioware...

Originally posted by Warsong

Originally posted by Zorndorf

And the most played game is all: it can be played as an mmoRPG, it can be played as a fun instanced game with a 20 minute BG, it can be played as anything.
 

With one character I play the end game in Raids, with one character I play the BG's stuck at lvl 79 (super twink), with one character I play world PvP (call it ganking). with one character I go for Chief cooking. with one character I play the business man on the AH., with one character I just do RP and go to weddings and BBQ 's.... Woth one character I play it like SEcond Life and just chat in the channels ... Or I could even combine it all.

It is about time SOME people open their eyes. Hell, I could play my game from ANY angle...

That's the secret, Diablo will not give me.

Who says so I NEED to do anything. You can have a fun time without even entering a 25 man Raid or d5 man dungeon.

In fact the vast majority does ik like that.

 

Those elements don't cover the outline the OP set. So far in WoW you play in a world owned and ran by the NPC's/AI as opposed to playing in a world ran and owned by the players.

For players with plenty of free time,money and high IQ's and dont have much problems with ADD type mentalities (not that there arent these types playing WoW) WoW falls way short of any challenges. AI is easy to get the low down on and then defeat over and over while a sandbox type of game offers unlimited challenges as you are immersed in a game that interaction with other players is a constant and evolving, unpredictable at times MMO chess match with areas that I/we can create protect and govern and even loose if your not careful. I played WoW the first year it came out and it put me to sleep...if it's evolved since then then good but I know it's not at a point where it offers these other elements.

WoW ran well and I can say it's a good game (if you like being in a limiting MMO world..I don't) However if Blizzard focused a smaller budget for a sandbox type game and ofered these elements then I would be one of the first to become interested in it.

I loved you remarks on the high IQ thing :))
 

So the next step is certainly not too difficult to grasp: YOU create your OWN challenges and world adventures in Wow.

Got that? Could you grasp that? Here let me give you a few simple examples: Please read on ....

You set yourself a goal: you create yourself an adventure WITHIN the settings of a premade world.

So let me explain: you take a status symbol in PRESENT day Wow and set yourself up for it. Surprise ! You have about a thousand different choices to play (and have fun) with your goal.

-----

A few examples? I wanna create myself a motorbike, hell a cool 16.000 Gold worth of status symbol to myself in a world I also happen to "game" in. And the best thing is ... I can give me this status symbol in many different ways... As an engineer I could assemble it ... or I could play the AH and just sell and sale .... or I could gather the money in hundreds of ways .... WAYS i like to ... PLAY.

Another guy sees it cool when he can create hismelf a Justicar title. A cool title from the BG's. So he twinks his character to just have fun in BG's. He could start it as early as level 16 and finish it of at level 51 or as late as 80. In the meantime searching for "good" gear in the quests, dungeons or just ... the auctions.

A friend of mine just gathers everything he can to become an ultimate master in fishing achievements (I am too lazy to look it up right now), but it is a hell of a thing to do (like fishing the ultra rare fish ... IN the enemy city) and an enormous time sink, but the guy is motivated and he likes HIS goal.

And the oddest thing is ... there isn't even ONE NPC "giving" these above quests.

Players create their own "challenges" and they are awarded status symbols ... in playing their preferred playing styles. Competely FREE to do wathever they enjoy the most.

Odd isn't it ... we are talking about two different games. Now it takes individual challenge and intellect to SEE THROUGH these things.

The best thing is ... every Wow player has HIS/HER own story AND he/she can share it with Real Life friends.

Still being surprised WoW gave VERY simple answers to VERY simple demands to all of us who want to see it ?

I guess you are searching for a holy grail that was already offered, but apparently few people can see through the mechanics in present day good developped MMORPG's (not just Wow for those who like other worlds).

But think of it : the above was the reason mostly OTHER Wow clones mostly failed. Not all but most.

It doesn't have ANYHTING to do with sandbox. There is MORE than enough sandbox in present day offerings IF you simply want to see it.

The problem with games today is that the older players that ground and loved games like EQ just want fun these days as they dont have time anymore. So games cater for them. While the younger players have been brought up playing instant grat games so dont like the grind at all of older games.

 i also think that technology is effecting games as it's all about fancy graphics and effects these days, which does not leave time for imaginaton!

 Q: Is it the technology, capacity limitations, or the market, that is making everyone's dream of a really vibrant lived-in MMO feel like such a distant likelihood right now?

A:  Its definitely not technology or capacity.   It is definitely the market. 

But

"everyone's dream of a really vibrant lived-in MMO feel like such a distant likelihood right now"  Definitely not everyones dream, not even remotely.  Some of us just want a game for the sake of a game...If I want "Vibrant & lived in", I'll open my front door on a sunny day and enjoy some fresh air :)

Now being less sarcastic and ironically truthful,  It isnt a distanct likelyhood - its a matter of time & effort.  There are so many games in the market now, there -is- a game that can make your dreams come true and if there isnt there will be one.  The better question is:  "What is the level of 'vibrance' you need until you feel fullfilled & is your bar set too high?"

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by Warsong

Originally posted by Zorndorf

And the most played game is all: it can be played as an mmoRPG, it can be played as a fun instanced game with a 20 minute BG, it can be played as anything.
 

With one character I play the end game in Raids, with one character I play the BG's stuck at lvl 79 (super twink), with one character I play world PvP (call it ganking). with one character I go for Chief cooking. with one character I play the business man on the AH., with one character I just do RP and go to weddings and BBQ 's.... Woth one character I play it like SEcond Life and just chat in the channels ... Or I could even combine it all.

It is about time SOME people open their eyes. Hell, I could play my game from ANY angle...

That's the secret, Diablo will not give me.

Who says so I NEED to do anything. You can have a fun time without even entering a 25 man Raid or d5 man dungeon.

In fact the vast majority does ik like that.

 

Those elements don't cover the outline the OP set. So far in WoW you play in a world owned and ran by the NPC's/AI as opposed to playing in a world ran and owned by the players.

For players with plenty of free time,money and high IQ's and dont have much problems with ADD type mentalities (not that there arent these types playing WoW) WoW falls way short of any challenges. AI is easy to get the low down on and then defeat over and over while a sandbox type of game offers unlimited challenges as you are immersed in a game that interaction with other players is a constant and evolving, unpredictable at times MMO chess match with areas that I/we can create protect and govern and even loose if your not careful. I played WoW the first year it came out and it put me to sleep...if it's evolved since then then good but I know it's not at a point where it offers these other elements.

WoW ran well and I can say it's a good game (if you like being in a limiting MMO world..I don't) However if Blizzard focused a smaller budget for a sandbox type game and ofered these elements then I would be one of the first to become interested in it.

I loved you remarks on the high IQ thing :))
 

So the next step is certainly not too difficult to grasp: YOU create your OWN challenges and world adventures in Wow.

Got that? Could you grasp that? Here let me give you a few simple examples: Please read on ....

You set yourself a goal: you create yourself an adventure WITHIN the settings of a premade world.

So let me explain: you take a status symbol in PRESENT day Wow and set yourself up for it. Surprise ! You have about a thousand different choices to play (and have fun) with your goal.

-----

A few examples? I wanna create myself a motorbike, hell a cool 16.000 Gold worth of status symbol to myself in a world I also happen to "game" in. And the best thing is ... I can give me this status symbol in many different ways... As an engineer I could assemble it ... or I could play the AH and just sell and sale .... or I could gather the money in hundreds of ways .... WAYS i like to ... PLAY.

Another guy sees it cool when he can create hismelf a Justicar title. A cool title from the BG's. So he twinks his character to just have fun in BG's. He could start it as early as level 16 and finish it of at level 51 or as late as 80. In the meantime searching for "good" gear in the quests, dungeons or just ... the auctions.

A friend of mine just gathers everything he can to become an ultimate master in fishing achievements (I am too lazy to look it up right now), but it is a hell of a thing to do (like fishing the ultra rare fish ... IN the enemy city) and an enormous time sink, but the guy is motivated and he likes HIS goal.

And the oddest thing is ... there isn't even ONE NPC "giving" these above quests.

Players create their own "challenges" and they are awarded status symbols ... in playing their preferred playing styles. Competely FREE to do wathever they enjoy the most.

Odd isn't it ... we are talking about two different games. Now it takes individual challenge and intellect to SEE THROUGH these things.

The best thing is ... every Wow player has HIS/HER own story AND he/she can share it with Real Life friends.

Still being surprised WoW gave VERY simple answers to VERY simple demands to all of us who want to see it ?

I guess you are searching for a holy grail that was already offered, but apparently few people can see through the mechanics in present day good developped MMORPG's (not just Wow for those who like other worlds).

But think of it : the above was the reason mostly OTHER Wow clones mostly failed. Not all but most.

It doesn't have ANYHTING to do with sandbox. There is MORE than enough sandbox in present day offerings IF you simply want to see it.

The outline the OP stated has everything to do with sandbox but I tell you what...let me know when WoW can offer this experience.

1) I approach a player made faction base/keep that I am aligned with.

2) I see you killing the last of the guards and you prepare to leave because it would take more than one of you to destroy that base/keep and you are alone but you havent noticed me yet.

3) You summon your nice newly painted chopper that you just bought or crafted that has the wheely bars (gives the bike extra speed and the result of looting a rare item and then getting an uncommon/rare crafting result)

4) Feeling proud that you just killed all those mobs solo, you hop on your bike and ride right past me but to late to put your chopper up.....<uh oh> you are pvp flagged from those kills!

5) I have your chopper targeted and then I destroy it in only 3 shots (normally would take 10-15 lets say) since I am a skilled player with a servers best crafted rifle that I made myself due to a non generic crafting system and rare crafting loot.

6) And then after you get up off your face I take you out after a pvp battle that at least lasts a minute. (any pvp that a close to even match lvl vs lvl that only lasts a couple seconds isn't pvp at all..it's only pushing a button a couple times)

7) And now after you have rezed at your bound/nearest spawn point you have to sell the rare loot you just got to have the funds to get you a new chopper (player made and ran economy to it's fullest)

8) You get angry at me because you can't find another chopper with wheely bars and you decide to harrass me and such....you make yourself a target to me for my special attentions.

9) Next I have your guild infiltrated and manage to get enough spies in with houses placed to win a vote and become mayor of your city....then I evict you.

10) Since you need a new place to call home your purchase crafted items to rebuild. ( Player ran world and player driven economy).

K, so you let me know when WoW can offer me anything remotely close to the experience in 1-10 and I will be interested in it and so will this niche of thousands of players that I personally have played with and or know  for 10+ years as well.

And yes I understand that WoW has "limited pvp" and possibly a non generic crafting sys, but without the other elements it's still just an NPC world and not mine and yours.

WoW fanbois and pointless WoW references aside, i think that what you want is possible, and may even be coming out soon.

btw wtf long title?

Originally posted by markyturnip

 

 

There have been many compelling fictional representations of what the great MMOs of the future could be - you know, large non-instanced contiguous worlds where people hang out and form vibrant communities, build cities and keeps, wage long multi-faceted campaigns against their opponents; where pvp happens all over the place, sometimes in huge numbers, sometimes in small epic struggles; where people craft fun stuff, unearth hidden secrets, explore the paths less trodden; where there is a sense of adventure rather than grind, of epic size yet tight communities, personal progression, yet realm-wide struggles; where genuine relationships are formed, creativity is encouraged etc etc

I recently created a game like that and proved (to my own satisfaction at least) that there is a market for it. My game needs more work and for that reason is offline right now, but it was online for months and the players liked it a lot. The main complaints were about the unfinished aspects. It was free to play because it was somewhat unfinished, but we had a significant percentage of players sending in donations. I also conducted a market survey by asking players if they would be willing to pay to play it and which payment model they would prefer. The consensus was that they would prefer to pay a subscription of about $10 per month.

The overwhelming majority of MMO gamers have never heard of my game, but considering how easy it was to get people to try it, what percentage of them kept playing it and what percentage of those sent money even though they didn't have to, I think that there are easily enough potential players out there who would pay a $10 subscription fee that the game could be profitable. So could other sandbox games. I would not make the mistake of extrapolating these percentages to the 10 million or so users WoW says they have. Obviously those people like a rather different sort of game.

But it is not necessary for a company to appeal to the majority of MMORPG gamers to succeed. It is only necessary to have enough customers to make a profit. Providing a type of game that large numbers of gamers want, that no one else is offering, is a recipe for success, even if much larger numbers of players would rather play WoW.

I don't claim to know for sure why the major companies have not created a game like this, but I know that Indie developers like me are working on it. Not much is standing in the way, either. The reason it's not online now in a finished form is that we were working with inferior software development tools because of lack of money and we haven't been able to put in enough hours yet or bring on more team members to help because of financial constraints. In short, with more money or more time, or both, we can do this and probably will.

On a side note, people shouldn't dismiss SW:TOR as a WoW clone. Infact, I believe SW:TOR will be the first MMO where you play the game rather than play the mechanics.

I mean the reason most of the WoW clones fail is because they replicate the mechanics of WoW pretty good, but none of them are actually very good games, either the parts don't go together or the changes they've made just don't live up to expectation.

So, yeah, back on topic.

I'm sure my numbers were incredibly conservative, but I'd rather aim low and over shoot, than aim high and fall short. :)

I just wanted to say this is the longest title ive ever seen on mmorpg.com congrats op!

Originally posted by hubertgrove

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by hubertgrove

Originally posted by nariusseldon

 

Very simple. Because most people do NOT want worlds. They want games. The huge success of Diablo shows that a lot of people want simple hack-n-slash and a real virtual world is not really that important.

And grind is NOT a bad thing. Just look at Las Vegas and how many spend hours pulling slot machines? There is psychology literature showing that a simple grind/reward mechanism is what many people want.

 

 

The huge success of Dialblo shows that people want hack and slash games...

...But the huge success of Second Life, The Sims and Civ shows they DO want worlds.

In other words, different people want different things - and the appetite for game worlds seems to be just as strong as for games that are just games.

 

The SIMS online flopped and died. Arguably people playing SIMS want to have cute pets and big mansions and not worlds. Civ is a strategic game, it does NOT have virtual worlds.

I question the success of SL. It is essentially an online red light district. I don't think people want a world in SL. I think they want porn.

 

 

OK, how about Eve, how about Rhyzom, how about Metaverse....

Please don't tell me that these too are not also 'virtual worlds' rather than 'just games'. Sorry mate but there are people out there who want different things than the things you want.

Those are niche. How many people play Diablo. How many play Eve & Rhyzom & Metaverse? 

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Mwaji

WoW is a great game but its not a great MMO, think about what MMORPGS have become now. I mean you join a game with thousands of players per server, you immediately ignore them, and jump in a 10 man with 9 other jerks who ninja your gear. Why not just play a single player game then, would not Playing Icewind Dale provide the same benifit? Why subjegate MMOs with your will to turn them into a 5 to 10 man party game for just you and your friends?

 

That is the point. People want great games. Who cares if it is a MMO or not?

Plus, i have enough frds playing WOW that it is enjoyable. What is wrong with a 5/10/25 man game with a good chat channel & auction house? That is the way to go as WOW has shown the way.

And the most played game is all: it can be played as an mmoRPG, it can be played as a fun instanced game with a 20 minute BG, it can be played as anything.
 

With one character I play the end game in Raids, with one character I play the BG's stuck at lvl 79 (super twink), with one character I play world PvP (call it ganking). with one character I go for Chief cooking. with one character I play the business man on the AH., with one character I just do RP and go to weddings and BBQ 's.... Woth one character I play it like SEcond Life and just chat in the channels ... Or I could even combine it all.

It is about time SOME people open their eyes. Hell, I could play my game from ANY angle...

That's the secret, Diablo will not give me.

Who says so I NEED to do anything. You can have a fun time without even entering a 25 man Raid or d5 man dungeon.

In fact the vast majority does ik like that.

Sure. Just by the law of large number, there are always some, prob niche, players who want something different.

However, here is a prediction. Diablo 3 is going to be bigger than any of the "world" games out there.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by andmiller

To me, it is a matter of two camps.  But the second camp really isn't a camp.

There is the massive main camp of people who enjoy a game structured like WoW.  A game that can be played either casually or hardcore style, touches on each of the "ingredients" of MMO's, and includes PvP.  Then there is the anti-WoW camp.

The problem with the anti-WoW camp, is they are a fractured group.  There are so many sub-groups in that group. 

-"We want a hardcore old school 50 man raid type game"

-"We want a hardcore old school, take 2 million years to get to the cap type PvE game with no PVP"

-"We want a hardcore, full loot style MMO with full PvP."

-"We want an MMO where you can be hair-stylist and never involve yourself in combat if you choose"

-"We want an MMO with zero instances."

-"We want an MMO with top of the line cutting edge graphics."

And I could go on and on and on with subgroups that I consider wanting a niche type MMO.  With that said, and if you were an investor right now who had $20K in cash to buy shares of a company, would you buy them in let's say a tried and true developer who is aiming at something similar to a WoW style game, or would you invest it in an indie company making let's say a full  PVP/loot style game?  To use real but fictional (in terms of the investment piece) real world examples, if you could invest tomorrow in Bioware and the only game they were making was a game like TOR (ignoring what the IP is for argument's sake), or would you invest in the guys making Mortal Online?  Would you invest in the massive Camp A, or would you invest in the splintered, fractured, 20 sub-group Camp B, and hope for the best? 

This is the delimma for developers (IMO).

 

True about the fractured camps, however, there is overlap. Make one of these, and do it very, very well, and some of the other camps WILL play it, even though it's not EXACTLY waht they are asking for.

My investment would depend on the cost to make the game. TOR is costing more to develop, so will require more subs to make a profit. Mortal Online is costing less, and so will require less subs.

I'd need to know the total budget of each to decide on the best investment. If MO is going to spend 2 million bucks, then it might  be the better investment. If they are spending 50 million it's a definite loser.

 

I agree with your posts, but put budgets aside for a minute, as often when developers are sitting down to budget a game, they have no idea what the true final tally will be.  I'm just pointing out that it is a major problem for developers, who may be risking their company on the direction they go with an MMO.  It just makes more sense in the grand scheme of things to invest their resources to court the largest, most accessible camp of MMO gamers, rather then make a niche game and hope to attract splinters of the million other "camps" on the non-WoW side.......

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Those are niche. How many people play Diablo. How many play Eve & Rhyzom & Metaverse? 

Niche is fine if it can make you a profit, which is all that matters. EVE for example has over 100,000 subscribers, that is plenty to make a profit provided you didn't spend too much on development.

It is people like you who think you must have more players than everyone else who are preventing non-linear non-themepark MMOs from being made by competent companies.

Originally posted by nariusseldon 

Sure. Just by the law of large number, there are always some, prob niche, players who want something different.

However, here is a prediction. Diablo 3 is going to be bigger than any of the "world" games out there.

Sort of an unfair prediction, due to the popularity of Blizzard and the previous Diablo games, but accurate.

Not only are you all missing the point, but you seem to have missed my post, which told you how and why you are missing the point.  I give up.  For some people, the $ sign is like a flash-bang grenade.  It's the last thing they see before they black-out and go numb from the neck up.

Originally posted by andmiller 

I agree with your posts, but put budgets aside for a minute, as often when developers are sitting down to budget a game, they have no idea what the true final tally will be.  I'm just pointing out that it is a major problem for developers, who may be risking their company on the direction they go with an MMO.  It just makes more sense in the grand scheme of things to invest their resources to court the largest, most accessible camp of MMO gamers, rather then make a niche game and hope to attract splinters of the million other "camps" on the non-WoW side.......

 

With thinking like this the world would never see any diversity in life, we would all be driving the same cars, the same colors, etc.

Would be pretty drab if at some point (when the VW bug was most common) that everyone started thinking this way...everyone would be driving a red VW bug and nothing else...would we all still be using commadore 64's?

Actually it makes very little sense to pick one thing or one idea and then become stagnant. Creative diversity drives human advancments.