Unfortunately for the sandbox crowd, big companies and their investors are not convinced that it's financially healthy to invest in the model. Besides, the sandbox sci-fi ground is already taken by EVE. In fact, I would expect them to release the Ambulation expansion before SW:TOR releases, so as to capture that crowd that wants sandbox but also wants to have a look at their avatars.

Originally posted by SaintViktor

I will repost what I said about this subject. Other than FFXI which does require grouping I have soloed just about every mmo I have played which includes, WOW,LOTR,AOC,Guild Wars and Warhammer Online. Making a big deal out of this being soloable is really no big deal at all. I'm not even sure why this even has to be mentioned. The Old Republic will be different and different in a good way.

Agreed.

I'm bemused why everyone is so concerned that you can solo in this game when thats exactly what you do in nearly every other MMO out there. It almost seems that with Bioware releasing so little info people are inventing problems.

Originally posted by Xasapis

Unfortunately for the sandbox crowd, big companies and their investors are not convinced that it's financially healthy to invest in the model. Besides, the sandbox sci-fi ground is already taken by EVE. In fact, I would expect them to release the Ambulation expansion before SW:TOR releases, so as to capture that crowd that wants sandbox but also wants to have a look at their avatars.

Bit stray but...

Sci-fi ground isn't taken. EVE is whole different sub-genre in sense.  Traditional EQish-subgenre doesn't have real contenders, only 3 I can come up with are AO, Neocron and SWG. On other hand there is some games coming up now and we can wait how they work up.  There isn't many games(or good games) for those who want sci-fi, but not EVE like space simulation. I think there is room for one succesful sci-fi mmorpg, which ever it will be.

Sandbox model is lacking games. Darkfall is too much pvp for most. There is likely some room for game which is sandbox, but doesn't enforce harsh nature of full loot and ffa-pvp. Anyway SWTOR won't be sandbox, in sense it's good themepark, lot of ready made content for players as different rides.

Still I have feeling that sandbox won't be able to hold needed crowd for long, as dev-cost are much higher nowdays and on other hand there wasn't too much options in days of UO.

Originally posted by Stoofus 

And I don't know what data you're looking at...

http://rubenfield.com

Originally posted by Stoofus

I would also disagree that SWG and UO were in the same niche as Second Life.  I think it's obvious that 2nd Life caters to totally different tastes.  Whereas it is an MMO, I wouldn't call it an MMORPG.

That's because it's even more of a sandbox/nonlinear/non-EQ-clone than either of them.

Originally posted by Stoofus 

I also disagree that the draw of Star Wars is to be the hero at the center of the story (which in an MMO is ramming a square peg in a round hole).  IMO, the draw is the fantasy universe, which can be worked with in MMOs if it doesn't contradict the films or books.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Originally posted by Stoofus 

Anyway, what I want to say is that the sandbox/nonlinear/non-EQ-clone MMORPG market is wide open.  The competition in this field right now is Darkfall, and maybe UO.  These are to say the least, not formidable.  A well known IP, with a high quality game I think could make some serious success here. 

Still not counting EVE Online?

Originally posted by Stoofus 

If they go the EQ-clone route, which SWTOR is, the competition is World of Warcraft.  That's a problem.

A problem for whom, besides disgruntled pre-CU SWG fanatics?

Originally posted by Ekaros 

Sandbox model is lacking games.

Sandbox model is lacking a coherent, consistent definition.

Every mmo designer wannabe on these forums has his/her own personal concept of what a "sandbox" really is, and it's often quite a rigid (and contradictory) one at that.

Originally posted by MindTrigger

This is from Dana Massey's new article posted today.  It's a quote that I have been saying on these and the SWTOR boards for a while now, and no one will listen.  He saw the game at E3 and had this to say:

"Bioware’s Star Wars: The Old Republic looks a heck of a lot like a cooperative single-player RPG."

This is the game everyone here is touting as the "savior of the MMO genre".  Really?  A game that looks and plays like a single player RPG is going to save MMORPG games? A game with henchmen?  This is not a troll post.  I am hoping we can have some real discussion here about what constitutes a true MMORPG, and what is just an MMOG.  In my mind, SWToR unfortunately looks like an MMOG, not an open world MMORPG where people are free to forge a memorable adventure.  It seems like it's going to be the purist most sanitary theme-park game ever concieved of, leaving little else to do than run quests and maybe chat a little. This is a true bummer in my mind.

I'm loving people pulling these ideas out of their ass like they actualy know what they are talking about. At the point of reading "Looks and plays" did anyone else in their head have a remote thought of wtf are you talking about? I am truly facinated by them and the shit they come up with. Even still at this point in the game no one really knows anything about this unreleased title.

I don't want a typical MMORPG experience, gawd, as if this genre isn't stagnant enough already.  I'm so very disappointed that they are even putting in raid content.  As usual, in order to give raiding meaning, they will have to make the rest of the content crap in comparison or no one will do it.  Just once, I wish a developer would have the balls to put out a AAA MMO with absolutely no hardcore content at all, casual content would be king of the hill, just once.

This game was my last hope for continuing to involve myself with the genre.  I'll wait and see if they end up treating raiders better than casuals.  If they do, then I'm done.  I'm tired of waiting for a game that gives casuals the highest progression.  I'll head back to single player games and  my Xbox and never look back.

Originally posted by Vrazule

I don't want a typical MMORPG experience, gawd, as if this genre isn't stagnant enough already.  I'm so very disappointed that they are even putting in raid content.  As usual, in order to give raiding meaning, they will have to make the rest of the content crap in comparison or no one will do it.  Just once, I wish a developer would have the balls to put out a AAA MMO with absolutely no hardcore content at all, casual content would be king of the hill, just once.

This game was my last hope for continuing to involve myself with the genre.  I'll wait and see if they end up treating raiders better than casuals.  If they do, then I'm done.  I'm tired of waiting for a game that gives casuals the highest progression.  I'll head back to single player games and  my Xbox and never look back.

Well let's just wait and see what the unannounced classs are first.  If they don't put in a "healer" class like I'm hoping they won't, then a "raid" will just be a small story arc with a difficulty higher than the soloable part of the game and needing a group to complete.  Without a dedicated healer class, pugs should be able to run these raids much easier than in say WoW, where careful planning is needed to even attempt a raid boss.

Again, all speculative, but we well see.

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by Stoofus 

And I don't know what data you're looking at...

http://rubenfield.com

 

Originally posted by Stoofus 

Anyway, what I want to say is that the sandbox/nonlinear/non-EQ-clone MMORPG market is wide open.  The competition in this field right now is Darkfall, and maybe UO.  These are to say the least, not formidable.  A well known IP, with a high quality game I think could make some serious success here. 

Still not counting EVE Online?

 

Originally posted by Stoofus 

If they go the EQ-clone route, which SWTOR is, the competition is World of Warcraft.  That's a problem.

A problem for whom, besides disgruntled pre-CU SWG fanatics?

 

1.  That's weird that the estimates contradict what Rubenfield is saying.  Yeah SWG was bad, I remember getting bored and unsubscribing, then resubscribing when they implemented vehicles, then quitting again.  It was a broken unfinished game, but I don't think it's fair to blame that on its being in the style of UO.

2.  I'm not sure I'd call Eve competition for a game like UO.  It's non linear, but again like Second Life, it's a pretty different kind of game and I think it's reasonable that it appeals to a different pool of consumer.  Eve appeals to people who like the complexity, the PvP, space ships, and the whole political side.

3.  Competing with WoW is a problem for the competitor.  WoW is an extremely strong product that already occupies the vast majority of the market.  To be successful, you'll have to draw some players out of that market.  You need to come up with a slicker product that can draw in more consumers.  Failing that, you'll be another mediocre MMO like the last few we've seen released.

Originally posted by NecroHelium

Originally posted by Vrazule

I don't want a typical MMORPG experience, gawd, as if this genre isn't stagnant enough already.  I'm so very disappointed that they are even putting in raid content.  As usual, in order to give raiding meaning, they will have to make the rest of the content crap in comparison or no one will do it.  Just once, I wish a developer would have the balls to put out a AAA MMO with absolutely no hardcore content at all, casual content would be king of the hill, just once.

This game was my last hope for continuing to involve myself with the genre.  I'll wait and see if they end up treating raiders better than casuals.  If they do, then I'm done.  I'm tired of waiting for a game that gives casuals the highest progression.  I'll head back to single player games and  my Xbox and never look back.

 

Well let's just wait and see what the unannounced classs are first.  If they don't put in a "healer" class like I'm hoping they won't, then a "raid" will just be a small story arc with a difficulty higher than the soloable part of the game and needing a group to complete.  Without a dedicated healer class, pugs should be able to run these raids much easier than in say WoW, where careful planning is needed to even attempt a raid boss.

Again, all speculative, but we well see.

I would like to bet on that Jedi / Sith can be specced towards healing as well as dps and tanking...

Or we can assume that everyone can heal themselves in a variety of ways (either physical trauma or recharging shields).

So we have melee (jedis), ranged (troopers etc), rogues (smugglers etc) ... they might as well add some engineer class (potentially our healer) of sorts or some kind of minefield/traps/explosives expert (who could provide crowd control).

Originally posted by Xasapis

Or we can assume that everyone can heal themselves in a variety of ways (either physical trauma or recharging shields).

So we have melee (jedis), ranged (troopers etc), rogues (smugglers etc) ... they might as well add some engineer class (potentially our healer) of sorts or some kind of minefield/traps/explosives expert (who could provide crowd control).

I disagree because I think they will try to make the class possibilities as close to the standard formula as possible. I expect a pet class (droid controller) to be the last class type to be revealed and healers to be jedi / siths, specced towards that.

They said they wanted HEROES and an engineer is not a very heroic class. Also it doesn't fit in with the Bioware perception of the WoW class system.

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by Ekaros 

Sandbox model is lacking games.

Sandbox model is lacking a coherent, consistent definition.

Every mmo designer wannabe on these forums has his/her own personal concept of what a "sandbox" really is, and it's often quite a rigid (and contradictory) one at that.

It's not really complicated, they're looking for a successor to UO.  UO had a fundamentally different gameplay than the level grinders that mimic EQ's gameplay.  I shouldn't have to explain how.  Eve is close, but it is its own thing.  What else is there?  We had SWG and Darkfall, each with crippling problems, although I had a lot of fun in both, more in DFO than SWG.  The market is wide open for something good here, IMO.  The market for another EQ clone is not wide open, it's occupied by WoW and maybe 10 other smaller MMOs, and SWTOR is going to join them.

Originally posted by Stoofus

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

Originally posted by Ekaros 

Sandbox model is lacking games.

Sandbox model is lacking a coherent, consistent definition.

Every mmo designer wannabe on these forums has his/her own personal concept of what a "sandbox" really is, and it's often quite a rigid (and contradictory) one at that.

It's not really complicated, they're looking for a successor to UO.  UO had a fundamentally different gameplay than the level grinders that mimic EQ's gameplay.  I shouldn't have to explain how.  Eve is close, but it is its own thing.  What else is there?  We had SWG and Darkfall, each with crippling problems, although I had a lot of fun in both, more in DFO than SWG.  The market is wide open for something good here, IMO.  The market for another EQ clone is not wide open, it's occupied by WoW and maybe 10 other smaller MMOs, and SWTOR is going to join them.

I agree. The market is indeed open for a new sandbox mmo. The EQ/WoW area is crowded and will be even more crowded the next two three years with all the new games coming out..

Originally posted by Draccan

Originally posted by NecroHelium

Originally posted by Vrazule

I don't want a typical MMORPG experience, gawd, as if this genre isn't stagnant enough already.  I'm so very disappointed that they are even putting in raid content.  As usual, in order to give raiding meaning, they will have to make the rest of the content crap in comparison or no one will do it.  Just once, I wish a developer would have the balls to put out a AAA MMO with absolutely no hardcore content at all, casual content would be king of the hill, just once.

This game was my last hope for continuing to involve myself with the genre.  I'll wait and see if they end up treating raiders better than casuals.  If they do, then I'm done.  I'm tired of waiting for a game that gives casuals the highest progression.  I'll head back to single player games and  my Xbox and never look back.

 

Well let's just wait and see what the unannounced classs are first.  If they don't put in a "healer" class like I'm hoping they won't, then a "raid" will just be a small story arc with a difficulty higher than the soloable part of the game and needing a group to complete.  Without a dedicated healer class, pugs should be able to run these raids much easier than in say WoW, where careful planning is needed to even attempt a raid boss.

Again, all speculative, but we well see.

 

I would like to bet on that Jedi / Sith can be specced towards healing as well as dps and tanking...

 

This is my guess as well... now if this IS how it turns out, as long as it isn't a "healing jedi" or "tanking jedi" situation and just a jedi with some healing or jedi with some tanking, the end result could be the same... its the dedicated healers I'm worried about.

So this game wont be a sandbox MMORPG but rather a heavy instanced game like LOTR and focused on PvE? Dissapointing but not very surprising I must say.

LOTRO is heavily instanced? Compared to what?

Originally posted by Xasapis

LOTRO is heavily instanced? Compared to what?

I think he means as far as storyline stuff goes.  All The storyline missions are instanced in LOTRO.  If I had to pick the best way to describe how I think this game will turn out as far as open/instanced world I'd pick LOTRO.  Good comparison in my opinion based off of the limited info we have so far.

Originally posted by Vrazule

I don't want a typical MMORPG experience, gawd, as if this genre isn't stagnant enough already.  I'm so very disappointed that they are even putting in raid content.  As usual, in order to give raiding meaning, they will have to make the rest of the content crap in comparison or no one will do it.  Just once, I wish a developer would have the balls to put out a AAA MMO with absolutely no hardcore content at all, casual content would be king of the hill, just once.

This game was my last hope for continuing to involve myself with the genre.  I'll wait and see if they end up treating raiders better than casuals.  If they do, then I'm done.  I'm tired of waiting for a game that gives casuals the highest progression.  I'll head back to single player games and  my Xbox and never look back.

"...a AAA MMO with absolutely no hardcore content at all, casual content would be king of the hill..."

It's called Free Realms.

Aimed aty 4-10 year olds.

Originally posted by MindTrigger

This is from Dana Massey's new article posted today.  It's a quote that I have been saying on these and the SWTOR boards for a while now, and no one will listen.  He saw the game at E3 and had this to say:

"Bioware’s Star Wars: The Old Republic looks a heck of a lot like a cooperative single-player RPG."

This is the game everyone here is touting as the "savior of the MMO genre".  Really?  A game that looks and plays like a single player RPG is going to save MMORPG games? A game with henchmen?  This is not a troll post.  I am hoping we can have some real discussion here about what constitutes a true MMORPG, and what is just an MMOG.  In my mind, SWToR unfortunately looks like an MMOG, not an open world MMORPG where people are free to forge a memorable adventure.  It seems like it's going to be the purist most sanitary theme-park game ever concieved of, leaving little else to do than run quests and maybe chat a little. This is a true bummer in my mind.

Who cares about "true" MMORPG? TOR sounds like a fun game. May be more SP elements are what needed to make better games. So far from what I have heard, TOR sounds great and exactly the kind of game i want to play.

MMORPGs are trending towards more solo-friendly, less restrictive in terms of grouping and offer more choices. TOR sounds like a logical next step of that trend. Well, if it is not "pure" MMORPG in some people's mind, so be it. Call it something else and let's move on in anticipation of a good or even a great game.

It's no big mystery why game developers are afraid to innovate... Nobody want's a WoW Clone, but if you do anything out of the norm, try to introduce anything new, and suddenly you're not being true to the genre, you no longer fit into some peoples narrow definition of what an MMORPG "should" be.

It's upsetting to me for too reason.  Human ignorance just gets me down as a whole.  Second, I'm a gamer, and I want new games with awesome innovation, I want developers to be able to try new things, to shake things up.  It's better for everyone as a whole.   Will it always work?  Of course not.  But shouldn't we wait and see rather than rant and complain about a game when virtually NOTHING is known about the actual gameplay?  That's just stupid.

Interesting interview here www.mmogamer.com/06/11/2009/a-new-hope-for-mmos

I think a lot of the concerns about lack of group play are unfounded.  Some of the devs say they love raiding while some say they love the alt route, they want to have both. The more I read about this game the more I like the sound of it.

Daniel Erickson: Very rarely have I ever heard anyone who was into MMOs say, “You know what I really like about the combat? The fact that it feels slow.”

James Ohlen: I can understand some of the concerns. It’s been very difficult, and it’s taken a lot of effort to get our combat system right.

It’s a very complex system. You’ll notice when you get into a battle, there’ll be classes with lightsabers deflecting, and we have to have all sorts of animation blending, and state managers, and all sorts of tech that allows the characters to do what they do when they’re in combat.

It’s much easier to just say “I’m going to play this animation when I attack something,” but we didn’t want to go down that way.

[said in a joking tone of voice] So we just got boatloads of money and we did something else! [laughing]

Originally posted by hubertgrove

Originally posted by Vrazule

I don't want a typical MMORPG experience, gawd, as if this genre isn't stagnant enough already.  I'm so very disappointed that they are even putting in raid content.  As usual, in order to give raiding meaning, they will have to make the rest of the content crap in comparison or no one will do it.  Just once, I wish a developer would have the balls to put out a AAA MMO with absolutely no hardcore content at all, casual content would be king of the hill, just once.

This game was my last hope for continuing to involve myself with the genre.  I'll wait and see if they end up treating raiders better than casuals.  If they do, then I'm done.  I'm tired of waiting for a game that gives casuals the highest progression.  I'll head back to single player games and  my Xbox and never look back.

 

"...a AAA MMO with absolutely no hardcore content at all, casual content would be king of the hill..."

It's called Free Realms.

Aimed aty 4-10 year olds.

There's nothing AAA about Free Realms and even if it was, I will never play a micro transaction / cash shop based business mode  MMO.  Yes, you can subscribe for 5 bucks a month in Free Realms, but you still have to use the cash shop for much of the cool stuff and on top of that, I don't want to play a childish game.  Casual does not equal childish.

If Bioware had just steered away from raiding, this could have been a really great casual game.  Guess that even innovative developers can remain obnoxiously stuck on old school MMO paradigms.  If by some miracle, they don't treat raiders better than other types of players, then I could see myself subscribing for a very long time.

Originally posted by Vrazule

Originally posted by hubertgrove

Originally posted by Vrazule

I don't want a typical MMORPG experience, gawd, as if this genre isn't stagnant enough already.  I'm so very disappointed that they are even putting in raid content.  As usual, in order to give raiding meaning, they will have to make the rest of the content crap in comparison or no one will do it.  Just once, I wish a developer would have the balls to put out a AAA MMO with absolutely no hardcore content at all, casual content would be king of the hill, just once.

This game was my last hope for continuing to involve myself with the genre.  I'll wait and see if they end up treating raiders better than casuals.  If they do, then I'm done.  I'm tired of waiting for a game that gives casuals the highest progression.  I'll head back to single player games and  my Xbox and never look back.

 

"...a AAA MMO with absolutely no hardcore content at all, casual content would be king of the hill..."

It's called Free Realms.

Aimed aty 4-10 year olds.

 

There's nothing AAA about Free Realms and even if it was, I will never play a micro transaction / cash shop based business mode  MMO.  Yes, you can subscribe for 5 bucks a month in Free Realms, but you still have to use the cash shop for much of the cool stuff and on top of that, I don't want to play a childish game.  Casual does not equal childish.

If Bioware had just steered away from raiding, this could have been a really great casual game.  Guess that even innovative developers can remain obnoxiously stuck on old school MMO paradigms.  If by some miracle, they don't treat raiders better than other types of players, then I could see myself subscribing for a very long time.

If they stay away from the holy trinity with only minor heals, each class good at defense and offense just on different things and in different ways then pugs would be much more pheasible, meaning casual raiding.

Not saying that's how they've planned it, just that it is possible.

Originally posted by hubertgrove 

"...a AAA MMO with absolutely no hardcore content at all, casual content would be king of the hill..."

It's called Free Realms.

Aimed aty 4-10 year olds.

And last I heard it already had more than 3 million subscribers.