An MMO could be called a time sink in itself.

I don't think FFXIV needs to have "balance." I think it should mostly stick to what it does. When it try to find balance it ends up pleasing no one. Or everyone but for a short period. A game will fail if it trys to please everyone. It should find it's nitch and stick to it. Doesn't mean they can't have a few soloable stuff here and there but they need to stick to one thing... not a "mixture of both" it really just wont work. The idea makes sense, but the execution. That's my opinion.

I hope they make the game along the same lines as the first, in order to satisfy that fanbase and give them a good sequal to the game they loved. (and not shaft them like Mythic did to us DAOC players)

No, i didn't play the first game because of its design, and probably won't be able to play the 2nd if it goes the same way. (long combat sessions to really progress).

But that's OK, because I don't need every game out there designed to my more casual gameplay style, i've got plenty of others to chose from that will work for me.

Let the fans get what they want.....and not what will draw the maximum number of subs.

Originally posted by neKrow

 

I dont really see myself as a hardcore nut. And there is nothing really in WoW that I would call "mastering". You can raid with top guilds and be considered a major contributor by logging in 16 hours a week. Much less for arena's. and I wouldn't call that "excess time". I havent played in 2 years but when I quit things were just getting easier. All past accomplishements wiped away by continuously makeing the game less challenging.

And  IF FFXIV starts out at the low end of easy, then what is really in it for us?

Well maybe a hardcore elitest would be a better term because as soon as someone says casual friend you equate that to easy mode. UO was in fact a casual friendly game because it could be played at any pace.

That is my point WoW’s standard for mastering their game is being able to raid. Sure you can only spend 16 hours a week but that is only if those 16 hours are spent over 2 to 3 days. I would say having to sit at your computer fo r5.33 to 8 hours straight is excessive.  If you don’t have raid quality gear can’t compete in arenas moot point.

Them stating FFXIV will be casual friendly which has nothing to do with it being overly easy that’s just your arrogance showing.

Originally posted by Venger

Well maybe a hardcore elitest would be a better term because as soon as someone says casual friend you equate that to easy mode. UO was in fact a casual friendly game because it could be played at any pace.

That is my point WoW’s standard for mastering their game is being able to raid. Sure you can only spend 16 hours a week but that is only if those 16 hours are spent over 2 to 3 days. I would say having to sit at your computer fo r5.33 to 8 hours straight is excessive.  If you don’t have raid quality gear can’t compete in arenas moot point.

Them stating FFXIV will be casual friendly which has nothing to do with it being overly easy that’s just your arrogance showing.

True true, its just a concern I have. We dont really know anything yet. With the fact that their wont be any experience points the approach will be different than FFXI so hopefully my fears will be unfounded.

But to say that 5.3 hours is excessive? No not at all, well at least for Americans... we spend 28 hours a week  watching tv on average. It just about priorities.

(maybe I should try out UO again)

Originally posted by heerobya

I think most can agree that what we really want for FF XIV is balance.

We don't want things too tedius that the difficulty/challenge is having the patience to suffer through pointless time sinks.

But we also don't want things to come to easily so we lose the sense of accomplishment and true reward for the risks.

A lot of MMO players who are tired of the grind want something new that will give them enough to have months/years of fun, and we've probably all been let down by a new MMO released in the past couple of years so we're a bit jaded.

 

How do you define too easily?   Or too difficult/challenging?   I think this is a key problem.  Definitions for these will be quite varied.

For myself, I've not tried FF XI as I heard it was almost entirely forced grouping.    Right there, that one thing kept me from even trying the game.   So right there I think the idea of making FF IV different is a good one.

Originally posted by arctarus

It will definately be dump down, however how it affects the whole game remains to be seen...

 

 

Man, is that some good irony :-)

I loved playing FFXI. Was tehre from teh March 23, 2003 launch and played for 2 years or so.

Then I got a real job and had a son....Now I simply cannot play it anymore. I can't spend an hour in Jeuno waiting for a party only to have the white mage leave and leave us standing tehre with nothing to do.

Just because I do not have the time to play it anymore, doesn't mean i fault those who do.

However, i look forward to seeing if SE can make a more casual MMO as fun as their more hardcore version.

Originally posted by neKrow

Originally posted by andmiller

 

Whether it is wanted or not, it sounds like they will be aiming for it.  They are specifically saying they are......

 

Very true, but it does say "a bit". I am just hoping that "a bit" means an average of 50-75 days to max level. Not 7 days.

I agree with this.

Though... I think part of the situation is that people (well, many anyway) automatically equate "making it more like WoW" to "making leveling faster to end-game to raid non-stop".

The thing is.. in WoW... aside from BG/Arena and I guess Achievements now, there's not a whole lot else for people to do. I mean, I played to level 73. I was pretty bummed to learn that after 73 levels of grinding quests and passing up many instances that I'd have liked to do because "they don't have good loot so no one bothers doing them", all I had to look forward to was another 7 levels of quest grinding and then non-stop raid grinding.

When I talked to them about it, that "realization" was pretty much confirmed by friends who've played the game for years and have been through it all, multiple times. There's just not a whole of PvE content in WoW outside of Raids/Instances/Quests. I really think that's as much part of the equation as anything else. People burn through the levels quickly because, really, what reason do they have not to? All the best content in WoW, by many accounts, is at the end anyway.

When I came to the realization that, in 73 levels, I'd had a single encounter that was at all memorable (compared to FFXI where the memories could fill a novel), and that all I had to look forward to was non-stop raiding, or starting a new character and going through it all again... I said "what's the point?", canceled my account and didn't bother logging in anymore.

That said...

I think if SE follows the trend they did with FFXI and creates a wide variety of interesting content - along the lines of BCNMs, Assault, Besieged/Campaign, HNMs, etc. etc. - across all levels, and doesn't merely keep tacking on 10 more levels to grind with every expansion and calling it "more content" (I doubt SE will do that), then maybe people will realize "Oh wow... there's so much I can do throughout these levels, and I want to get to do more of it, so I need to slow down leveling a bit". Then maybe that won't be a problem.

However, unfortunately it seems many MMO gamers have come to believe, and I've seen numerous people come right out and say this, that MMORPGs are all about the end-game; it's the only reason to play and it's the only part that matters... It's where the "real game is". Everything before end game is just useless filler to get through as fast as possible. That's a nasty precedent SE's up against... So... hopefully they can change a few minds, slow some people down and get them to learn to enjoy the content along the way a bit more... if for no other reason than because, unlike WoW, FFXIV will (again, if they continue what they did in FFXI) have so much more to do along the way.

We shall see.

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by neKrow

Originally posted by andmiller

 

Whether it is wanted or not, it sounds like they will be aiming for it.  They are specifically saying they are......

 

Very true, but it does say "a bit". I am just hoping that "a bit" means an average of 50-75 days to max level. Not 7 days.

 

I agree with this.

Though... I think part of the situation is that people (well, many anyway) automatically equate "making it more like WoW" to "making leveling faster to end-game to raid non-stop".

The thing is.. in WoW... aside from BG/Arena and I guess Achievements now, there's not a whole lot else for people to do. I mean, I played to level 73. I was pretty bummed to learn that after 73 levels of grinding quests and passing up many instances that I'd have liked to do because "they don't have good loot so no one bothers doing them", all I had to look forward to was another 7 levels of quest grinding and then non-stop raid grinding.

When I talked to them about it, that "realization" was pretty much confirmed by friends who've played the game for years and have been through it all, multiple times. There's just not a whole of PvE content in WoW outside of Raids/Instances/Quests. I really think that's as much part of the equation as anything else. People burn through the levels quickly because, really, what reason do they have not to? All the best content in WoW, by many accounts, is at the end anyway.

When I came to the realization that, in 73 levels, I'd had a single encounter that was at all memorable (compared to FFXI where the memories could fill a novel), and that all I had to look forward to was non-stop raiding, or starting a new character and going through it all again... I said "what's the point?", canceled my account and didn't bother logging in anymore.

That said...

I think if SE follows the trend they did with FFXI and creates a wide variety of interesting content - along the lines of BCNMs, Assault, Besieged/Campaign, HNMs, etc. etc. - across all levels, and doesn't merely keep tacking on 10 more levels to grind with every expansion and calling it "more content" (I doubt SE will do that), then maybe people will realize "Oh wow... there's so much I can do throughout these levels, and I want to get to do more of it, so I need to slow down leveling a bit". Then maybe that won't be a problem.

However, unfortunately it seems many MMO gamers have come to believe, and I've seen numerous people come right out and say this, that MMORPGs are all about the end-game; it's the only reason to play and it's the only part that matters... It's where the "real game is". Everything before end game is just useless filler to get through as fast as possible. That's a nasty precedent SE's up against... So... hopefully they can change a few minds, slow some people down and get them to learn to enjoy the content along the way a bit more... if for no other reason than because, unlike WoW, FFXIV will (again, if they continue what they did in FFXI) have so much more to do along the way.

We shall see.

 

My feelings exactly, I restarted my WoW subscription a week or so ago, and I came to the same realisation "If I go ahead and buy WoyLK, and hit level 70, what then? either I grind raid content, PVP in an enviromnent where everybody practically has super powers, or go through it all again, which is dull because it's just gonna be another 80 level solo slog.

FFXI made me love the journey, and still does, I welcome the opportunity to level another job, because it's different, because I do it with other people and it's fresh every-single-time. If they make this game casual and more solo-oriented, I won't be impressed. I don't mind if they just make some solo-friendly content, like some quests or so, but the fact that leveling to 75 required teamwork is what made me not lose faith at end game. I could do the end game, sure, or play through the storyline, which is brilliant, SE has implemented MANY things I can do at end-game besides raiding and PVP. But the great thing is, if I don't choose to do end-game, it's ok! because getting to 75 is half the fun, I can easily level another job and enjoy it all over again, I don't get that in WoW, I'm leveling up a completely different class and I cba to get him past 63, because it's exactly the same, instances are the only enjoyment and nobody wants to do those because "teh lootz is bad" the majority of the WoW playerbase is pathetic, I did a Gruul raid yesterday and some lvl 80 druid rolled on all the lvl 70 gear when there were level 70s in the raid, just because he wanted to collect it, he said. It's just purple fever, nobody raids 'cause it's fun, they just want phat lewtz, they don't raid horde cities for fun, they just want an achievement and a bear. I'm sick of it, If FFXIV takes the route of allowing people like this to get somewhere in the same way WoW does, then the game will be ruined, simple as that. And don't get me started on this "link your achievement" elitism that WoW's gained now...You have to be fully epic geared just to do a simple raid nowadays, how can you raid to get this gear when you need it just to begin?

No because others have tried for that share of the market and failed because those folks do not want to leave WOW and the friends they made there. To go after WOWs market share simply leads to fail and more fail. Target a audience that you want and go from there.

Comparing FFXIV to WoW...

lol

LOL!

Take a look at the developers / game directors. This piece of art will not be casual friendly. And whats the problem with that? 500k players played FFXI and no one ever complained about the difficulty / time consuming part of it. It was damn challenging. But after they made WoW "carebare" and so many people joined in, now everyone that hasnt played FFXI is saying they should make FFXIV casual?

FF series are the best games on any platform ever made, and they will keep it that way. They dont need millions of players to stay alive as you can see with FFXI.

If you cant dedicate much time, or if you have a family, dont play MMO's. Thats why so many children are fucked up these days. Parents want all, career, 3 kids, a big social life bla bla bla. Give up, you cant do that all. Same with MMO's.

Originally posted by heerobya

I think most can agree that what we really want for FF XIV is balance.

We don't want things too tedius that the difficulty/challenge is having the patience to suffer through pointless time sinks.

But we also don't want things to come to easily so we lose the sense of accomplishment and true reward for the risks.

A lot of MMO players who are tired of the grind want something new that will give them enough to have months/years of fun, and we've probably all been let down by a new MMO released in the past couple of years so we're a bit jaded.

 

SE has said that they want FF XIV to be about the journey. They want the game to be about story and character development. These two principles have always been at the core of all the Final Fantasy RPGs, offline or otherwise.

Couple this with what SE has said about weapons and studying the logo for clues and not having traditional experience points and such and it leads me to believe is that FF XIV is going to be something unlike any MMORPG we have scene before.

The MMO genre has evolved a lot since the early days, some don't like where it has gone or think it's gone too far while others think it hasn't evolved enough.

FFXIV will not be FF XI nor will it be WOW. SE will take lessons learned from the success and love of both and every other MMO and create a new game with a lot of new twists and innovations to seperate itself from the crowded MMO market.

Well said.

From your mouth to SE's ears... Or... your fingers to SE's eyes, as it were.

Originally posted by natuxatu

An MMO could be called a time sink in itself.

I don't think FFXIV needs to have "balance." I think it should mostly stick to what it does. When it try to find balance it ends up pleasing no one. Or everyone but for a short period. A game will fail if it trys to please everyone. It should find it's nitch and stick to it. Doesn't mean they can't have a few soloable stuff here and there but they need to stick to one thing... not a "mixture of both" it really just wont work. The idea makes sense, but the execution. That's my opinion.

Your exactly right. You cant have it both ways and please them both.

Another thing that I see people arguing is "you can have a challenege and be casual" Or "challenge doesnt have to equal timesink"

There is nothing casual about a challenege. A task is casual, A challenege is not. It doesnt matter if its a game or in life a challenege is not casual

A challenge takes time and effort. Thus people will always be able to call a challenge a timesink. Especially in a game since you sit on your duff poking keys on your keyboard. Theres only a LIMITED number of things a dev can do in a game. You can put pressure on the gamer to hit keys fast and accurate, but thats twitch gaming and MMO's are not about that game style, so can that idea. Or they can do what the do and we have seen it all in "hardcore" style games.  The hated Grind and timesinks. However one mans junk is another mans treasure. I never grinded in anything except gil in FFXI. Never felt a timesink at all because I was enjoying playing the game. I wasnt in a hurry to get to cap or get items(thats the secret).

I see so many people say you can have a casual challenge. You guys/gals need to wake up to reality.  If you think it can be done please do give examples I want to see them. Its to easy to sit on the sides and say that it can be done,  so give examples of how it can be done.  I personally dont think it can be done. People have jobs to sit around and think this stuff up, I am 110% sure they know more about it than people on these forums.  Again theres only a limited number of things a dev can do to provide a challenege to someone who sits on their rear hitting keys on a keyboard.

I wish they would implement the casual aspects that WoW has, but also keep the hardcore aspects that WoW has.

Originally posted by TheHavok

I wish they would implement the casual aspects that WoW has, but also keep the hardcore aspects that WoW has.

Or you could just play wow and have the casual aspects of wow and  ummm..... the hardcore aspects of WoW.

Problem solved

Yes, for the love of all holy and just, YES!! Let it be just like FFXI and even better!  Square-Enix, I doubt, would ever even consider dumbing a game down that much to be on the same level of WoW... and if they do, I'll lose all respect for the company.

The only thing I really want in Final Fantasy XIV is to change the controls similar to WoW and other MMORPG. Like moving with WASD and jump with the spacebar instead of number pad. Numberpad is so complicating, that's what made me quit FFXI within the first week.

Originally posted by AshGUTZ

Originally posted by neKrow

I am very concerned about this from the E3 Q&A:

Q: What influence have games like World of WarCraft have on the development of FFXIV? 
A: As with WoW, we want to aim a bit for the casual user. However, we don't want to make a copy of WoW. We believe we will have things that are unique and will stand out from that game.

From my persective FFXI was very rewarding because it was not dumbed down. So I guess I am asking:

 

I just don't comprehend since when WoW was viewed as a "casual players'" game.

from the beginning. you can level to cap in a few weeks easy, and SOLO.

I'd like to make a simple distinction for the casual crowd. "Casual' to me and I wager to a lot of people does not mean get me to top tier in a month, why bother playing I can pick up a single player RPG if that's what I want. What I do want is to be able to get something done in 1 hour or 2 PER SESSION. Needing one or two hours MINIMUM to get a level or heck get a party together and another 2 to get a level or to get to my mog house and then back out to where I was doing something is a huge headache.

This was a problem in FFXI that will be addressed, I'm confident that doesn't mean people who have more time on their hands will find themselves instantly bored in a month or two. I can't explain why it's just a feeling I have from the video interviews.

Quotes for those saying making a game for different types of player CAN'T be done, this is what I think of the word I cannot, you cannot, we cannot, they cannot:

Those who say it can't be done are usually interrupted by others doing it. ~ Joel A Barker

While they were saying among themselves it cannot be done, it was done. ~ Helen Keller

It's not because you have a hard time understanding and conceiving of something and not because no one has yet done it that it can't be done.

That's a very limiting and unimaginative point of view.

Originally posted by Cynthe

I'd like to make a simple distinction for the casual crowd. "Casual' to me and I wager to a lot of people does not mean get me to top tier in a month, why bother playing I can pick up a single player RPG if that's what I want. What I do want is to be able to get something done in 1 hour or 2 PER SESSION. Needing one or two hours MINIMUM to get a level or heck get a party together and another 2 to get a level or to get to my mog house and then back out to where I was doing something is a huge headache.

This was a problem in FFXI that will be addressed, I'm confident that doesn't mean people who have more time on their hands will find themselves instantly bored in a month or two. I can't explain why it's just a feeling I have from the video interviews.

I dont see why they cant make it so u can take on solo quests or solo grinding to level but still have the party experience for those who have the time (obviously a party quest/grinding would give u much more xp or rewards)

Originally posted by neKrow

I am very concerned about this from the E3 Q&A:

Q: What influence have games like World of WarCraft have on the development of FFXIV? 
A: As with WoW, we want to aim a bit for the casual user. However, we don't want to make a copy of WoW. We believe we will have things that are unique and will stand out from that game.

From my persective FFXI was very rewarding because it was not dumbed down. So I guess I am asking:

well might not be dumbed down might just lil less of a grind tho anymore thats what is most unique about FFXI.but i did vote no

and LOVE your avatar of Evil Ernie i actually have "Smiley" as a tattoo on my fore arm..lol

Originally posted by Stuckov

Originally posted by Cynthe

I'd like to make a simple distinction for the casual crowd. "Casual' to me and I wager to a lot of people does not mean get me to top tier in a month, why bother playing I can pick up a single player RPG if that's what I want. What I do want is to be able to get something done in 1 hour or 2 PER SESSION. Needing one or two hours MINIMUM to get a level or heck get a party together and another 2 to get a level or to get to my mog house and then back out to where I was doing something is a huge headache.

This was a problem in FFXI that will be addressed, I'm confident that doesn't mean people who have more time on their hands will find themselves instantly bored in a month or two. I can't explain why it's just a feeling I have from the video interviews.

 

I dont see why they cant make it so u can take on solo quests or solo grinding to level but still have the party experience for those who have the time (obviously a party quest/grinding would give u much more xp or rewards)

It's hard to say because we know so little. I'd be surprised if there were XP given for quests maybe decent rewards as opposed to you know a kernel of corn! ^_^  I don't think the experience will be like WoW were you solo through quests all the way to max, my guess is it will be more organic then FFXI or WoW level progression.

One of my only hopes for FF XIV is that it's much more fast-paced than XI is.  I love the FF series a lot, but the slow-combat in FF XI really turned me away from it.  Also, I hope they make the control-system for PC different than the one for console to take advantage of us mouse/keyboard users, heh.  That isn't a deal-breaker for me, but it'd be nice; I guess I could use my 360 controller with Windows assuming that the Sony gods won't smite me for it, lol.

Either way, really looking forward to this.

I just really really hope its not like wow where u can grind your way to the top level. One of the best things about FFXI leveling method was that it made players group up and socialize with friends or complete strangers. You needed peoples help for quests/AF/a certain item. if they have that in FFXIV but just have also solo material on the side u can be doing then id be happy.

In my opinion FFXI would have been loved by so many more players if it were soloable to level 30 with more jobs, and it doesn't have to be like WoW allowing solo-play to max level.

Even though most FFXI players end up playing multiple jobs, every player at one time in their early game had a specific job in mind that they wanted to focus on until 75. This makes it easier players who dreamt of playing an advanced job to unlock that job.

Being able to hold you own until level 30 would make going to other nations less of a headache, but still be a task. Casual players will have a blast going through the three starting nations doing cross-nation quests or missions, all within 30 levels. It would be much easier to avoid leveling in Valkurm Dunes or Qufim, which I think were the two biggest hurdles for new players in the beginning.

My perspective of FFXI changed completely at the time I got to Jeuno, finished my Chocobo license, and earned the airship pass to Kazham. Afterwards, everything I found in FFXI was more good stuff, I wish everyone else had easily gotten to that point.

Originally posted by Stuckov

Originally posted by Cynthe

I'd like to make a simple distinction for the casual crowd. "Casual' to me and I wager to a lot of people does not mean get me to top tier in a month, why bother playing I can pick up a single player RPG if that's what I want. What I do want is to be able to get something done in 1 hour or 2 PER SESSION. Needing one or two hours MINIMUM to get a level or heck get a party together and another 2 to get a level or to get to my mog house and then back out to where I was doing something is a huge headache.

This was a problem in FFXI that will be addressed, I'm confident that doesn't mean people who have more time on their hands will find themselves instantly bored in a month or two. I can't explain why it's just a feeling I have from the video interviews.

 

I dont see why they cant make it so u can take on solo quests or solo grinding to level but still have the party experience for those who have the time (obviously a party quest/grinding would give u much more xp or rewards)

Why bother having solo content if all the good stuff is in group content.  This is the argument you groupers constantly shove in soloers faces....."No on will group if you can get it solo....."  This is why games need to stop trying to integrate hardcore / casual content.  One always gets the crappy end of the stick and that is completely unfair.  Everyone pays the same fees, but only one play style gets the good stuff, screw that.