Gonna have to agree with pretty everything thats been said in this thread so far, alot of really good points on both sides

on a side note (sorry to derail a sec) i just wanna say that this community is already extremely enjoyable and the fact that we can have constructive conversation/posts like this is a sign that no matter how the game goes the community will likely be very enjoyable. (done derailing)

pvp, simple as that, if they put halph the time they invest in pve on pvp that this game would have such a bigger crowd.

From TenTonHammer:

"SE has indicated that FFXIV will use a job system like the one so popular in FFXI, but the company also said that it would feel different from the one in its previous MMO. Most of the speculation in this area stems from the SE response to IGN’s question about the importance of weapons. SE told IGN that weapons greatly influence character development and that fans should inspect the FFXIV logo for clues. SE further explained that the concept is a “wheel” of warriors trying to cover the backs of their comrades.

Popular theories for the meaning of these clues is that weapons will grant stat bonuses as people use them or that they will define the job of the character equipping them and have abilities that can be learned from them.

The FFXIV logo displays what appears to be a group of casters and support jobs surrounded by allies with short- and long-range melee weapons, prompting speculation that combat may involve a front and rear guard with casters in the middle."

"Will the same character be able to learn any job?

The answer to this question is unknown at this time. SE admitted that character development is the main focus of FFXIV and that it will not involve a traditional experience points system. This has led to conjecture that the game will employ a skill up system like the one used in Darkfall or an Ability Points (AP) system like the one used in Final Fantasy Tactics.

A skill up system would result in a character getting better at wielding long swords the longer he fights with them. Meanwhile, the AP system has players earn points to unlock abilities. AP earned while a white mage could only buy white mage abilities."

Thoughts?

though you are right if they did spend that much time on pvp as they do on pve alchemist it would be awsome, the thing is though that SE is KNOWN for its content and immersiveness as a pve artist, i agree some more pvp would be awsome but i want extremely polished pve like they always deliver first and foremost, and as for drawing a bigger crowd, i doubt it, pvpers tend to be flighty when it comes to games and counting on strictly pvp'ers for sub numbers isnt worth the risk imo of course

I dont know if this was said already, I will read the thread in a moment.. but please.. oh dear god please dont use the "playOnline" extra layer of logging in and crazy controls for managing your account and character slots.. I just want to click the icon, put in my password. and be presented with character selection. is that so hard?

Originally posted by fossilfied

 

on a side note (sorry to derail a sec) i just wanna say that this community is already extremely enjoyable and the fact that we can have constructive conversation/posts like this is a sign that no matter how the game goes the community will likely be very enjoyable. (done derailing)

I noticed the same thing.  It is shocking when people are actually nice to people and make intelliegent and constructive posts on the mmorpg forums.  I sure hope it continues like this.  It makes me even mroe excited about FF14.

Originally posted by neKrow

I dont know if this was said already, I will read the thread in a moment.. but please.. oh dear god please dont use the "playOnline" extra layer of logging in and crazy controls for managing your account and character slots.. I just want to click the icon, put in my password. and be presented with character selection. is that so hard?

 

Well you will be happy to know that they are not using PlayOnline for FFXIV. It was in their Q.A. somewhere.

Oh and I agree. It's nice to see a nice community of players.. or in this case future players :)

Originally posted by heerobya

From TenTonHammer:

"SE has indicated that FFXIV will use a job system like the one so popular in FFXI, but the company also said that it would feel different from the one in its previous MMO. Most of the speculation in this area stems from the SE response to IGN’s question about the importance of weapons. SE told IGN that weapons greatly influence character development and that fans should inspect the FFXIV logo for clues. SE further explained that the concept is a “wheel” of warriors trying to cover the backs of their comrades.

Popular theories for the meaning of these clues is that weapons will grant stat bonuses as people use them or that they will define the job of the character equipping them and have abilities that can be learned from them.

The FFXIV logo displays what appears to be a group of casters and support jobs surrounded by allies with short- and long-range melee weapons, prompting speculation that combat may involve a front and rear guard with casters in the middle."

"Will the same character be able to learn any job?

The answer to this question is unknown at this time. SE admitted that character development is the main focus of FFXIV and that it will not involve a traditional experience points system. This has led to conjecture that the game will employ a skill up system like the one used in Darkfall or an Ability Points (AP) system like the one used in Final Fantasy Tactics.

A skill up system would result in a character getting better at wielding long swords the longer he fights with them. Meanwhile, the AP system has players earn points to unlock abilities. AP earned while a white mage could only buy white mage abilities."

Thoughts?

I hope its not like darkfall, where there are No levels and every movment/ability related to in/out combat has number out of 100. Ie Jump, diving, runing, sprinting, Great swords, swords, polearms, and magics classes like lesser magic, lesser magic spells like heal self and mana missle, everything has a skill as use it more it gains points up to 100 and becomes stronger or faster.

This is a good system to add more skills to certian area where you can use a skill more, at certain levels buy specific skills, lets say lesser magic mana effeciency, and then use lesser magic more while using less in your mana pool. I hoped for level based player stats and all that, but that leaves little room for buying skills and abilites while having magic class completly sepetate more difficult to become a jack of all trades since its like trying to level more than one character at the same time and becomes ineffecent. This is why I want levels and magic that is trained not bought then never chages unless your character gains a level.

Change everything or almost everything. This is Square's chance to make the Final Fantasy MMO the Western world wanted. FFXI is a great game for those that enjoy it but I would much prefer something that isn't as grind heavy and doesn't require a party 100% of the time.

Take the success of World of Warcraft into mind, implement the story mechanics of Lord of the Rings Online, give us some depth in crafting along the lines of Star Wars Galaxies, give us full player cities, implement guild wars, and keep the job/class system.

Originally posted by Velric

Change everything or almost everything. This is Square's chance to make the Final Fantasy MMO the Western world wanted. FFXI is a great game for those that enjoy it but I would much prefer something that isn't as grind heavy and doesn't require a party 100% of the time.

WoW wasn't out when FFXI released, it took it's cues from Everquest 1. Why do I have to keep saying this? :o)

he eh.

I started playing Final Fantasy XI in November 2003, less than a month after it released. It was my first graphical MMORPG, and I played it for a little more than a year, until shortly after Chains of Promathia was released.

I have some good memories from that game, but also quite a few not-so-good memories. When I left FFXI, I did so with a bitter taste in my mouth. Good memories include getting all the Avatars (including Fenrir), getting the Red Mage Artifact Armor, the crazy Chains quests that no one had figured out yet when they were still new, making some awesome friends (NA and Japanese alike), and having a real sense of accomplishment near the end game.

The bad memories reflect what I want to see changed. FFXI took its notorious monster loot ideals directly from the Everquest era. You had to sit in an area for hours, waiting for a notorious monster to pop, and when it did, you'd better hope you're the first one to claim it. If you're the first one to claim it, you can fight it; if you can defeat it, you have an extremely small chance to get a valuable item.

I want to see that changed. That is straight-up tedious, unfun, and (for the most part) unchallenging game play. You sacrifice many hours in the hopes of winning a lottery.

Similar to that were the end-game bosses. They were just like notorious monsters, except they had huge pop times and entire end-game guilds had to compete with each other (while also camping for hours on end) to claim the mob first. So even if you could avoid NM camping before the end-game, you're guaranteed to be forced into it eventually, and it's even more annoying and tedious then. Also, the politics and atmosphere of the end-game were terrible... you could only participate if you were part of at least a halfway-decent NM Linkshell, and those were all filled with selfish, cliquey, immature people.

Also, the fact that most (though not all) of the non-artifact armor looked like crap could stand a change. The FF series lately has been about beautiful visuals, and there's really no need for butt-ugly armor outside of the very first newbie zones.

Crafting (except for Cooking) was incredibly hard to get started with, amazingly tedious, and you actually LOST a great deal of money most of the time unless you had mastered the crafting skill, the stars aligned (literally), and you got lucky.

And yes, they need to ease up on the XP grind, and mix things up a bit. FFXI has an oldschool mega-grind by today's standards, not nearly as bad as Lineage II, but comparable.

Finally, I don't know how they'll handle this, but they need to make the economy not be a steaming pile of donkey dung. Seriously, I've never played any game (not even EVE Online or text MUDs) where it's so tedious, difficult, and annoying to afford some decent equipment. FFXI took the cake on that one.

DISCLAIMER: I have no idea how much the game has changed since early 2005, when I stopped playing. Maybe all that stuff got fixed, but... well, I kinda doubt it.

Originally posted by DoktorTeufel 

DISCLAIMER: I have no idea how much the game has changed since early 2005, when I stopped playing. Maybe all that stuff got fixed, but... well, I kinda doubt it.

Quite a bit, and some of what you dislike has been dealt with, but from much of what you said you basically want WoW with the Final Fantasy name slapped on it!  hehe

Originally posted by Khrymson 

Quite a bit, and some of what you dislike has been dealt with, but from much of what you said you basically want WoW with the Final Fantasy name slapped on it!  hehe

I think that's a common misconception among people who still play oldschool games. I believe it's quite possible for a game to be hardcore without the inclusion of extremely tedious boss-camping, loot lotteries, annoying/unprofitable crafting, and other aspects that are mostly negative and aren't by any stretch of the imagination fun or enjoyable.

I think EVE Online is a good example. You can make plenty of money within the healthy economy in many innovative ways, there's no camping of bosses (let alone for hours on end), research and crafting can be insanely profitable and satisfying, etc.. And I don't think any person who knows anything about EVE Online would say that it's casual or anything like WoW.

I don't want EASY, but I don't want a straight-up, Korean-style grind either.

I've seen a lot of folks around here who have been saying they hope it keeps its slow paced combat.

I personally think this is the main reason a lot of people don't bother to stick around in FFXI, frankly most of us are tired of sitting around and waiting for TP just to use a single button.

I really hope they make XIV much faster paced.  

I wonder if their new combat system will be like the origional Final Fantasys, where you run into a mob and it starts a fight in an instanced area, and then when you win you go back to where you were before.   I think it would be very interesting.

Perhaps I'm a rarity, but just throwing out my two cents.

Originally posted by Laughing-man

 an instanced area

AHHHHHH the horror, better not be any crappy instancing like everything else out there!  The only instancing in FFXI are Major Storyline boss fights, BCNMs, raid events...etc  The rest of the world should be open for all to explore and party in just like XI!

Originally posted by Khrymson

Originally posted by Laughing-man

 an instanced area

 

AHHHHHH the horror, better not be any crappy instancing like everything else out there!  The only instancing in FFXI are Major Storyline boss fights, BCNMs, raid events...etc  The rest of the world should be open for all to explore and party in just like XI!

You just saw the word instance and didn't bother to think about what I was saying.

When your playing a single player final fantasy game and your party encounters an enemy the camera zooms in and you start a fight with a party of monsters.

They are claiming that it will be like party vs party of monsters in this game, I was saying an interesting way to do this would be making the MMO just like the single player game.

one of your party members touches a monster and then it zooms in and you fight the party of monsters represented by the monster.

Just saying that it would be an interesting idea for an MMO not saying they would do this, but they are saying they're doing something entirely different with combat, could be something old like their origional system?

Originally posted by Laughing-man

I wonder if their new combat system will be like the origional Final Fantasys, where you run into a mob and it starts a fight in an instanced area, and then when you win you go back to where you were before.   I think it would be very interesting.

Perhaps I'm a rarity, but just throwing out my two cents.

I think that would be a good change, actually.

I can sum up my experiences with leveling and combat in FFXI thusly:

You can't solo anything past level ~10 without a party.

You sometimes must wait for an hour or longer to find/create a party.

Some classes (Dragoon springs to mind) have a very difficult time finding a party.

Once partied with the appropriate classes, you sit in one spot, pulling the same monster for hours on end.

Quite an old-school methodology. There's nothing wrong with forced partying (it has a lot of plusses), but it sucks that White Mages, Bards and (later) Red Mages can easily find one, whereas lower-tier damage dealers have to wait forever. The strict party makeup requirements need to be relaxed in FFXIV.

As far as pulling the same monster for hours on end... well, the problems with that should be obvious. That system makes no attempt to be anything other than what it is, which is boring and unchallenging. Skill chains don't really change that much, and actually they made it that much more difficult for some damage dealers to find a party.

Originally posted by Khrymson

Originally posted by Laughing-man

 an instanced area

 

AHHHHHH the horror, better not be any crappy instancing like everything else out there!  The only instancing in FFXI are Major Storyline boss fights, BCNMs, raid events...etc  The rest of the world should be open for all to explore and party in just like XI!

By instanced, he means every single fight would be instanced.

I.E., you encounter the monster, the screen swirls, and you enter a new screen for combat... you know, like 90% of the other actual Final Fantasy games through the years?

Originally posted by DoktorTeufel

Originally posted by Khrymson

Originally posted by Laughing-man

 an instanced area

 

AHHHHHH the horror, better not be any crappy instancing like everything else out there!  The only instancing in FFXI are Major Storyline boss fights, BCNMs, raid events...etc  The rest of the world should be open for all to explore and party in just like XI!

 

By instanced, he means every single fight would be instanced.

I.E., you encounter the monster, the screen swirls, and you enter a new screen for combat... you know, like 90% of the other actual Final Fantasy games through the years?

Yep thats exactly what i ment!  ^.^

Again this idea wouldn't be ideal for every type of game, but an MMO that was based around this idea would be kinda interesting to see.

Originally posted by Laughing-man

You just saw the word instance and didn't bother to think about what I was saying.

I knew exactly what you are saying when I wrote that and any type of instancing that removes players or mobs from the field into an instanced space would be no fun!  FreeRealms does that and while it there its ok, but for a real P2P MMO especially as high profile as FF, even though it fits with 12+ of their older titles.

Dunno about you, but I loved walking around FFXI when I had my lvl 75 WHM/SMN and watch other players fight and raise dead players or parties, sometimes offering a bit of extra healing where needed....never PL'd or grabbed a mob off a party that yelled for help, etc!  Instancing of any kind reduces interactions with the community 100 fold and thats never good!

Originally posted by Khrymson

Originally posted by Laughing-man

You just saw the word instance and didn't bother to think about what I was saying.

 

I knew exactly what you are saying when I wrote that and any type of instancing that removes players or mobs from the field into an instanced space would be no fun!  FreeRealms does that and while it there its ok, but for a real P2P MMO especially as high profile as FF, even though it fits with 12+ of their older titles.

 

Dunno about you, but I loved walking around FFXI when I had my lvl 75 WHM/SMN and watch other players fight and raise dead players or parties, sometimes offering a bit of extra healing where needed....never PL'd or grabbed a mob off a party that yelled for help, etc!  Instancing of any kind reduces interactions with the community 100 fold and thats never good!

I feel what your saying, I too spent quite a lot of time power leveling people, but at the same time I don't see how they can have a party of people vs a party of monsters in a very clean and neat way.  Especially with the main problem many people had in FFXI when starting out was the lack of camp availability.

I was merely suggesting that if a single monster could represent a group of monsters, that wouldn't stop you from raising fallen people, it would merely stop PLing (which shouldn't be needed if the game is balanced properly)  That would hopefully provide more monsters and more camps for parties to level on.

I enjoyed running Valkurm Dunes in WHM AF armor raising people, healing them, and rescuing them from danger, too.

But let's be honest: A lot of the fun of that is showing off your high level and AF armor to noobs. It's helpful, yes, but part of why it's so fun is because you get to feel powerful.

I'd have traded that for a non-boring, innovative combat system in a heartbeat.

Originally posted by DoktorTeufel

I enjoyed running Valkurm Dunes in WHM AF armor raising people, healing them, and rescuing them from danger, too.

But let's be honest: A lot of the fun of that is showing off your high level and AF armor to noobs. It's helpful, yes, but part of why it's so fun is because you get to feel powerful.

I'd have traded that for a non-boring, innovative combat system in a heartbeat.

I agree, and nothing would stop you from buffing people or raising the dead if they used their old single player FF system.  So you could still help out your buddies.

Regardless I'm excited they're claiming to be trying some new combat system.  The old one was frankly just TOO SLOW for melee DPS.  

Originally posted by DoktorTeufel

 It's helpful, yes, but part of why it's so fun is because you get to feel powerful.

 

I didn't do it for that either...I just really like to help people when they ask, or are in imminent danger!  Plus I met some really good friends too.  I like to interact with others and talk with them; heck there are many times I got into conversations with another player or group of players that lasted 10+ hrs and longer.

That is one of the things I really enjoyed about FFXI; was the very slow nature of everything.  It gave you plenty of time to decide what you wanted to do, or just kick back and relax watching others play and enjoy themselves while striking up all manner of topics.  Running off for a rez and returning...etc  The community is what drives MMOs forward and imprints lasting experiences you never forget.  I'd say 100% of the best moments, friendships and entertainment I ever had from MMOs were entirely from FFXI and I still carry them with me everyday...

I really hope that Square-Enix has recognized this, and are planning on a repeat performance instead of going with the crappy norm of everything else!

Originally posted by Khrymson

Originally posted by DoktorTeufel

 It's helpful, yes, but part of why it's so fun is because you get to feel powerful.

 

 

I didn't do it for that either...I just really like to help people when they ask, or are in immenent danger!  Plus I met some really good friends too.  I like to interact with others and talk with them; heck there are many times I got into conversations with another player or group of players that lasted 10+ hrs and longer.

 

That is one of the things I really enjoyed about FFXI; was the very slow nature of everything.  It gave you plenty of time to decide what you wanted to do, or just kick back and relax watching others play and enjoy themsleves while striking up all manner of topics.  Running off for a rez and returning...etc  The community is what drives MMO forward and imprints lasting experience you never forget.  I'd say 100% of the best moments and entertainment I ever had from MMOs was from FFXI and I still carry them with me everyday...

 

Honestly I feel like this is the major flaw in the game, a lof of people I met got into serious online relationships with people they met in FFXI and found themselves extremely unhappy.

I met one guy who went through 6 seperate internet girlfriends during the 3 years I played while he did.

I love the social aspect of MMO's but the fact that the game is so slow that talking is the high light of the game... Its kinda not right.