"The truth of hardcore is that it is about the amount of hours put in, not what people enjoy doing in those hours."

I disagree with this statement. It's not about the hours but rather the passion. Someone could only spend 2 hours a week playing a particular game but the passion that they bring for those 2 hours is what determines if they are hardcore or not.

More time does not equal hardcore, rather the seriousness that one holds for a game is what defines them as a player.

Originally posted by rscott6666

I did read your specifics. Not too many, icons over head, rectangular window, text, yes/no, changed icon. Other than the icon over the head, all of the facets were done and done well by earlier games. If anything, wow  was the clone. The big complaint about WoW when it came out was that it didn't bring anything new to the table, everything else was copied from earlier games. Their only innovation as far as i can see was that icon. It gets credit for polishing the genre, thats about it.

As to the argument that its whoever perfected the feature gets the credit, no, its usually whoever popularizes it gets the credit, its never really perfected. So EQ/DAOC should get credit, not WOW.

It did invent and popularize that icon. If you want WOW clone to mean 'floating  icon over the head', okay. Rather meaningless if you ask me. I guess i'll call everything that uses a rectangular window a DAOC clone.
 

Sure, WoW way of questing was already at its core in DAOC. But DAOC's quests were way less, way harder, slower, boring. WoW made 'em more accessible, easy to accomplish, easy to take, guiding you from lvl 1 to lvl cap... they became ''fun''(not for me, i hate that kind of accessible fun), in a way they are unique.

If WoW didn't DO anything new, then why did every MMO after it reuse the same core mechanics? Why were all MMo's before WoW unique in every aspect, and then they were all EXACTLY the same in the quest gameplay? I tell you why, because WoW invented a winning formula for quests nobody had come up with that became an accepted standard. And again im not talking about generic similarities of the concept of quests, but the same in every way.

But even if WoW didn't invent anything new, it still has the merit(not a merit for me, it bastardized the genre, made it for kids) of having made the genre a protitable business, a genre for the big masses... that alone is a great reason to call every mmo like it(and like EQ/DAOC) a wow clone.

Because as i said, everyone knows vikings went to america first, but Columbus made it known to the masses, so he gets the merit.

Originally posted by AmbushMartyr

LMFAO! This post went south of heaven fast didnt it? Geesh, for those who dont know...ITS JUST A GAME!! A GAME!! ITS NOT REAL!! ITS A GAME!!! Lol, morons, I swear...

It may be true that "it's just a game."  But these games, especially MMOs, are connected to people .... like you!  Much, much more sophisticated than playing Monopoly or Life, eh?  :)

Why do we like the term WOW Clone...because there really hasn't been much innovation in the MMORPG industry other than a few games....like AC1 and Eve Online...the rest of have been D&D knockoffs using the same leveling paradigm...Just because your not innovative doesn't mean that you can't be fun...which some of these games have been...Being innovative will be done by independent shops...because it's easier to copy than to be truly innovative...

Heh...even though my arguments have to use some of the terms that are over used...doesn't  mean they are any less true.

Originally posted by Gylfi 

Sure, WoW way of questing was already at its core in DAOC. But DAOC's quests were way less, way harder, slower, boring. WoW made 'em more accessible, easy to accomplish, easy to take, guiding you from lvl 1 to lvl cap... they became ''fun''(not for me, i hate that kind of accessible fun), in a way they are unique.

If WoW didn't DO anything new, then why did every MMO after it reuse the same core mechanics? Why were all MMo's before WoW unique in every aspect, and then they were all EXACTLY the same in the quest gameplay? I tell you why, because WoW invented a winning formula for quests nobody had come up with that became an accepted standard. And again im not talking about generic similarities of the concept of quests, but the same in every way.

But even if WoW didn't invent anything new, it still has the merit(not a merit for me, it bastardized the genre, made it for kids) of having made the genre a protitable business, a genre for the big masses... that alone is a great reason to call every mmo like it(and like EQ/DAOC) a wow clone.

Because as i said, everyone knows vikings went to america first, but Columbus made it known to the masses, so he gets the merit.

Actually the quest system was used by AC2 before WOW(a game designed by Turbine and MS....it even used the symbol above the head...if anything WOW cloned AC2 but did a better job of polishing it  and putting it in a traditional Fantasy setting ;)

Hehe, a good read.

There are a lot of fishy, over-used and hollow phrases in this terrain. Like "epic" or "massive" or "brutal". Every second new MMO is either brutal or visceral these days. Or iconic!

Usually it is the typical result of too much hot PR air.

Originally posted by HouseODexter

Originally posted by Gylfi 

Sure, WoW way of questing was already at its core in DAOC. But DAOC's quests were way less, way harder, slower, boring. WoW made 'em more accessible, easy to accomplish, easy to take, guiding you from lvl 1 to lvl cap... they became ''fun''(not for me, i hate that kind of accessible fun), in a way they are unique.

If WoW didn't DO anything new, then why did every MMO after it reuse the same core mechanics? Why were all MMo's before WoW unique in every aspect, and then they were all EXACTLY the same in the quest gameplay? I tell you why, because WoW invented a winning formula for quests nobody had come up with that became an accepted standard. And again im not talking about generic similarities of the concept of quests, but the same in every way.

But even if WoW didn't invent anything new, it still has the merit(not a merit for me, it bastardized the genre, made it for kids) of having made the genre a protitable business, a genre for the big masses... that alone is a great reason to call every mmo like it(and like EQ/DAOC) a wow clone.

Because as i said, everyone knows vikings went to america first, but Columbus made it known to the masses, so he gets the merit.

Actually the quest system was used by AC2 before WOW(a game designed by Turbine and MS....it even used the symbol above the head...if anything WOW cloned AC2 but did a better job of polishing it  and putting it in a traditional Fantasy setting ;)

 

Very well.

It's as if you came up with the lightbulb but didn't ''tell'' anyone. Then I manage to spread it worldwide because i made it so ''pretty'' looking, and now everyone uses the exact same thing... not YOUR version which was ugly-looking, but mine. So the one who gets the merit(in this case the blame) is THAT who made it an accepted worldwide standard... WoW... even tho the ideas aren't original.

Thus explaining why we call the new mmo's  ''WoW clones''

Originally posted by Gylfi

Originally posted by HouseODexter

Originally posted by Gylfi 

Sure, WoW way of questing was already at its core in DAOC. But DAOC's quests were way less, way harder, slower, boring. WoW made 'em more accessible, easy to accomplish, easy to take, guiding you from lvl 1 to lvl cap... they became ''fun''(not for me, i hate that kind of accessible fun), in a way they are unique.

If WoW didn't DO anything new, then why did every MMO after it reuse the same core mechanics? Why were all MMo's before WoW unique in every aspect, and then they were all EXACTLY the same in the quest gameplay? I tell you why, because WoW invented a winning formula for quests nobody had come up with that became an accepted standard. And again im not talking about generic similarities of the concept of quests, but the same in every way.

But even if WoW didn't invent anything new, it still has the merit(not a merit for me, it bastardized the genre, made it for kids) of having made the genre a protitable business, a genre for the big masses... that alone is a great reason to call every mmo like it(and like EQ/DAOC) a wow clone.

Because as i said, everyone knows vikings went to america first, but Columbus made it known to the masses, so he gets the merit.

Actually the quest system was used by AC2 before WOW(a game designed by Turbine and MS....it even used the symbol above the head...if anything WOW cloned AC2 but did a better job of polishing it  and putting it in a traditional Fantasy setting ;)

 

Very well.

It's as if you came up with the lightbulb but didn't ''tell'' anyone. Then I manage to spread it worldwide because i made it so ''pretty'' looking, and now everyone uses the exact same thing. So the one who gets the merit(in this case the blame) is THAT who made it an accepted worldwide standard... WoW... even tho the ideas aren't original.

Thus explaining why we call the new mmo's  ''WoW clones''

 

No we call it a WOW Clone...because they are the 800 lb gorilla...not because they came up with anything original...

thought for sure "NOOB" woulda been number 1 on that list..lol

Great list.

You may have included a similarly coined phrase "Wow sucks" as a Misused.

The game is great, many of us just don't like it anymore or perhaps never did. But saying the game is bad is just as arrogant as thinking the only good music on the planet is the stuff you're in to, while hating on all the rest. Especially all that pop/rap/country music thats just terrible

Originally posted by HouseODexter

No we call it a WOW Clone...because they are the 800 lb gorilla...not because they came up with anything original...

Exactly.  It seems the term is not used because its accurate, or correct, but because its easy.  Its a dumbed down term for dumbed down people to describe what some people mistakenly feel is a dumbed down game.

And i'd just as rather use the more accurate term.

Originally posted by Dana

Originally posted by zidane01970

I don't agree with this, I use "WoW Clone" to describe these hundreds of mmos that use the same "Click to Attack", and watch the fight style combat. That bores me to tears. WoW was the first one to notably do it, as it followed a lot of other generic systems too. "Generic RPG" systems, I personally like WoW, but I would love to see more real-time combat MMORPG. These Psuedo-turn based games so many companies seem to be making are getting extremely old to me.

 

That's the point of the entry. WoW was FAR from the first to do it.

It's missing the point of the term - "WOW clone" implies that the developers intentionally made systems/mechanics in their game similar to WOW's system/mechanics in order to try to copy its success, rather than try to innovate or try something new.

The reverse is also true. MMO developers who do try to deviate too far from the WOW clone model, such as Darkfall, are trashed for how much they aren't a WOW clone.

I will call it "WOW-clone-itis" - the expectation that a new MMO will have game systems that are WOW-like.

I would like to disagree with the Hardcore definition.
Just like how the afformentioned "hardcore" porn isnt just porn that goes on for a long time.

Its in reference to the intensity.
A hardcore gamer is somebody who plays the game much more "intensly"
I don't play games 10 hours a day, my buddy plays wow 12 hours a day.
Nobody would consider him hardcore really, he just chats and farms.

Where as everyone I know refers to me as a hardcore gamer, yet I work most of the day and play video games 4-5 hours if im lucky on a work day.
The difference is, I'm always trying to accomplish something, im min/max'ing, competing and playing in a much mroe intesnse style.

There is a correlation between time played and intensity, but I think you have the causation reveresed. Hardcore playing lends itself to long play hours, but long play hours doesnt lend itself to hardcore play.

If time was all it took, secondlife would be chalked full of "hardcore" gamers.

 I do not consider the term WoW clone indicative of a game involving "swords" or "quests" but more along the lines of basic concepts, every MMO maker wants to have a woW clone under their belt, a successful MMO, or alternatively a game which has no real ideas of it's own just combining ideas from WoW and a few oher MMOs.

Hithero, WoW is an everquest clone.

Originally posted by chokepoint

 

It's missing the point of the term - "WOW clone" implies that the developers intentionally made systems/mechanics in their game similar to WOW's system/mechanics in order to try to copy its success, rather than try to innovate or try something new.

I will call it "WOW-clone-itis" - the expectation that a new MMO will have game systems that are WOW-like.

 

Then you are pretty much going to call every game a wow clone, whether it is or isn't.

You will have to login to all of them.  They are all going to have servers, you will have avatars that are only on one server at a time. Your avatar will have clothes.  You will be able to chat with other avatars around you.  There will be avatars not played by a player (called NPCs).  You will have the option of moving around by WASD.  etc etc etc

Pretty useless way to describe a WoW clone, if thats all it takes.

"WoW clone" exists due in part because WoW is largely responsible for exposing mmorpgs to what I would consider to be the "mainstream".

Before WoW, from what I've observed, it wasn't everyone and their brother who even knew what an MMO was.  I hesitate to use the term cult.  It's not entirely accurate, but it does give you a general idea of what I mean.  The people who used to play rpgs were cult-like in the sense that, comparatively speaking, there just weren't that many.

Before world of warcraft, mmorpgs were much different as a rule.  The character progression was much slower and required a larger dedication, and since the human animal is a lazy beast, didn't appeal to the masses.  Pre-wow, an RPG took true love and devotion.

What blizzard did, in essence, was take a really big, good book and turn it into a two hour mediocre movie.  Sure it's not as rich and invested, but it's quick and easy.  With only a small investment in time, you can accomplish quite a bit, and it doesn't necessarily take a small army to get it done (think grinding static camps for hours...)

As a consequence, people who wouldn't get within a mile of a good RPG suddenly got interested.  It appealed to more mature, busier players who could afford to slip in an hour of wow time in between paying bills and hanging out with the kids.  It appealed more to younger kids who have both very short attention spans and curfews/limits on their pc time.  What's that get you?  11.5 million subs instead of 300 thousand.

Granted I'm just pulling random numbers out of the air, but of those 11.5 million subs, this is probably the first exposure to an RPG for 10 million of them.  Since this is their first RPG, they subconsciously think it's THE "first" RPG.  You and I both know that couldn't be more wrong, but that's how they think.  And as a consequence, they use WoW as the measuring stick for every game that comes out after, because suddenly they're ::cough:: experts of the genre.

Most people can't help but use the term "WoW clone" because they truly believe it.  They think blizzard invented elves and magic and interactive combat.  They've only heard of tolkien because of the newest movie franchise, they probably still don't know who Robert Howard is, Gary Gygax was just some character in a Futurama episode,  And  what exactly is a drow, anyway?  When they say "WoW clone" they really mean it.  It's a shame, but they do. 

World of Warcraft is simultainiously the genre's greatest achievement and its most epic failure.  It gave the MMORPG world it's largest exposure ever.  Us "old timers" certainly don't have any trouble finding companions to adventure with these days.  But it streamlined it so much that people who don't have a passion for RPGs now have time to dabble, influence, and ultimately corrupt the genre.  Then they get bored and go play halo and leave the rest of us with a husk that's unchallenging and unengaging.

But then again, this could all just be unenlightened conjecture.

I have to agree totaly with what saberune just wrote and it's a shame.

I'll just take my girlfriend as reference:

Started playing WoW with her because I tested it and she wanted to try it too, so we played for a year. Now I quit the game again because I got bored and couldnt really get myself in the game like I could with other games and I didnt like the Community.

So She is still playing and whenever we're watching a movie/trailer/whatever of a new/old mmorpg, she's comparing details like the UI or skillbar with WoW as if it was the first game ever, like saberune said they would do (yea it was her first mmorpg).

Even now that we started playing good old Everquest 2, she's comparing every second most basic detail of the game with what it is in WoW. Kind of sad bud true, World of Warcraft's influence on the genre, for me, is a curse.

Good article,  I'd wonder though if we could create a special MMO Hell  just for those "leet" speakers, god I just want to smack them when I see that garbage

Originally posted by ziabatsu

Half of these stupid saying come from WoW players, the other half came from people who hate WoW. Either way, it just shows that WoW is fackin annoying.

So, basically, what you're saying is that these "stupid sayings" come from everyone.  Well, forgive me for saying this, but one would have thought that was pretty obvious.

I'd prefer to be rich and be popular to a large majority with an evolved product, than be uninteresting and poor with an "innovative" product that only a small amount like.  It's a waste of effort designing a product which YOU like but no one else does.  Not every idea is a good one.

Gone are the days whereby a game can be designed in a garage and live off a mediocre income.  That isn't WoW's fault.  Blizzard certainly cannot be blamed for the world economic crisis (though I'm sure someone somewhere will try).  Hate WoW all you like for being popular, but it doesn't change the fact that Blizzard are pulling in excess of $100 million per month.  I don't play WoW, but even I can recognise the fact that they refined the MMO formula to appeal to a greater audience.  They gambled, and won the lottery.

The only part of this article I have to disagree with is what makes an MMO a failure.  MMO's dont have to be the next WoW killer to be suceessful, but niether does turning a slight profit does make them a sucess.  You have to consider the power of the IP behind teh product as well.  Lord Of The Rings isteh biggest name in fantasy.  People on the other side of the world have heard of it.  People who never read the books or saw the movies have still heard of it.  My MOM has heard of it.  For a game with that much instant recognion to barely have 300k subscribers is pathetic.  Who cares if they make enough to keep the servers running, in the stock market if you dont meet expectation, your a failure.  The number one IP in the market should be remotely close to having the number one share of the market  to be a sucess.  So its 11.5 million vs 300k.  Thats epic failure.  An being  a hater I would say thats Turbine for you.  The same with Age of Conan. What a waste of potential. 

Originally posted by Kyleran

'Carebear' deserves a place on the list, maybe in slot #12 or something. 

Good article though and I agree with most of them. (there really are too many WOW clones IMO though)

 

LOL... Too many WoW Clones? And what is WoW?

Try reading the article about misusing words before misusing exactly the term you are misusing :P

But I agree 100% with the first statement of the post - I am a carebear myself, mining, industrials, BPC, BPO, and so on ;-)

Originally posted by Sarr

Originally posted by Dana

Originally posted by zidane01970

I don't agree with this, I use "WoW Clone" to describe these hundreds of mmos that use the same "Click to Attack", and watch the fight style combat. That bores me to tears. WoW was the first one to notably do it, as it followed a lot of other generic systems too. "Generic RPG" systems, I personally like WoW, but I would love to see more real-time combat MMORPG. These Psuedo-turn based games so many companies seem to be making are getting extremely old to me.

 

That's the point of the entry. WoW was FAR from the first to do it.

 

Wasn't Everquest first? Hmm, certainly not Ultima. But I have the feeing there was something similar before Everquest and Asheron's Call...

All the games you mention are just evolutions of other games before them.

Before everquest there was Ultima Online, and before UO there were MUDs, and before "popular" MUDS there were Moria (CGA Style FTW), and before Moria there was Tabletop, and before Tabletop there was... and so on... and so on... and so on...

Each of the games add something new to the game/genre (They better) - and if you take all these games, and peel one layer of evolution off the GUI, you'll find the previous game. WoW Fanboys who are 16 years old, were practically raised in a wow world, and EQ fanboys who are 20 years old were raised in an EQ world, and so on... but please, don't start taking up your game as the original for anything, because odds are, it wasn't.

PS: I've never used the word "fanboy" before, but the article made me want to try it, and since the zidane-person proved exactly one point of the article, with his fanboyism´; another point of the article, I thought it was funny :)

'A' to attack is one of the bizzrrest things to use to classify things as a wow clone.  Effectively, all RTS games use that, most flight sims have a lock on and single fire button for missles, many baseball sims have one button to place a batter up to hit and you watch how he does against the pitcher. 

All of these games use stats (other than reflexes) to figure out how effective the attack is, and indeed, the whole point is to avoid twitch in those cases.

Originally posted by zidane01970

I don't agree with this, I use "WoW Clone" to describe these hundreds of mmos that use the same "Click to Attack", and watch the fight style combat. That bores me to tears. WoW was the first one to notably do it, as it followed a lot of other generic systems too. "Generic RPG" systems, I personally like WoW, but I would love to see more real-time combat MMORPG. These Psuedo-turn based games so many companies seem to be making are getting extremely old to me.

I'm not real sure what you mean by ""Click to Attack", and watch the fight style combat" as applied to the combat system of WoW. I know that surely isn't the way I experience it.. in any way, shape or form. If that was the case there certainly wouldn't be any need for voice communications during raids in order to execute a particular strategy for bosses. Would be more like.. "Ok, everybody.. click now. GG. We win."... but it's not like that at all. During raids you watch for things that are happening, and give the proper response, in real time. Example, boss starts casting searing flames, they must immediately be interrupted. There is no turn based anything in there. Please explain to me how you consider this "Psuedo-turn based". Maybe I'm missing something but I really don't get what your gripe is with the mechanics or how it could be done better.

I know that during our raids things can sometimes happen so fast it's hard to mentally process and react to them in time. The only thing I can think of that you could be referring to would be the global cooldown, but then many actions are instants. I really can't fathom how combat in WoW could be any more "real time" without being a FPS.

Before you go calling me a fanboi one more thing.. about the polish issue.. lol. I guess maybe at release WoW was more "finished" than some of it's competition. I firmly believe that has long been relegated to a buzzword now. There are so many small issues, bugs and unresolved "promised" bits it's not even funny anymore. Druids have been left with what amounts to placeholder art for *years*, only now are they getting around to updating tired and downright broken models/textures. Several pieces have very broken texturing. Falling through the ground bugs.. being stuck and needing a GM to move you to a safe place, reviving on a totally different continent than what you were just on.. the list goes on and on. I guess nobody was around for the 2+weeks of  "beta on live servers" as many reffered to it when the patch just *before* LK went live last year when all the new assets were brought into the client. Now still we have promised features from this expansion nowhere to be seen.. hunter ammo changes, dance changes.. just off the top of my head. So there. It's really not that polished. 

You forgot 'Next-Generation' :)

Yes, developers feel the need to put a fancy word on in order to described pieces of plastic, overpriced and easily breakable pieces of crap in order to make them sell better.