You know, this entire discussion while interesting suffers from the central problem: Nobody actually agrees on any definition of Casual vs. Hardcore.

I ll take myself as an example:

I have limited time to play. 2hrs most days, sometimes none, weekends more. I am actually playing less than many self-proclaimed casuals.

I also dont do long sessions at a time to camp, grind or achieve something overnight. I dont burn through content like that, taking a day off to grind a faction or something.

But:

I love group play.

I love raids.

I lead raids, I organize raids, I fufill an officer position in a guild if needed.

I love difficult combat.

I hate easymode.

I prefer groupplay over soloplay.

I prefer to be challengend over being simply rewarded for sheer attendance.

I love thinking, figuring out stuff, exploring.

I hate grinding, I hate questgrinding of boring quests, regardless of reward.

What am I? Well, due to the time constraints, most people will put me in the Casual box. But frankly, none of the so-called Casual games, or the measures taken to make games casual, appeal to me. Anything any of the modern MMOs has done to appeal to the casual is something I dislike.

Which leads me to my final point: No matter how you look at it and what you argue, designers all over use the "casual" argument to just make crap worthless and easy. No matter what the casuals tell you, its not about time.... casual has become a code for easymode, for everyone gets everything, for getting showered with rewards for nothing. Those people who consider themselves casual in the sense of not having much time, having responsibilities etc. are not the ones its targeted it.

Modern games claim they target the casual, but what they really do is they target the incompetent, yet envious carebear. The person who hates learning, hates thinking, hates being challenged, or at least doesnt care. Because for several years now, 99% of all content in MMOs has been doable in chunks of 2hrs or 3hrs at a time at most.

Yet people still dont do it like that. They claim to be casual, argue that their demands are more important than those of others because they are the golden cash cow of casual, but still they sit for 5, 6 hours in Naxxramas, or the Rift, or whatever game they play, and whine. They are not casuals, they just adopt that term to cover up laziness.

Originally posted by GoldenDog

It's because a lot of us from the introductory days got old.

 

I was hardcore for years.  Played games >40 hours a week type stuff.  Now I'll be glad to get 2 hours a day.  At this time frame it'd take me forever to achieve the same unlocks I used to.  Three weeks of gear grind to equal one of my olden days.

 

So what happens?  They nerf the game down to my level so I don't get frustrated and quit.  Can't sit in a raid for 6 hours anymore.  Something called responsibility came along.

This^^^ I remember not even going to sleep... Now I just wanna hop on and stab/shoot a few ppl and go put some burgers on the grill and beat the wife (j/k) but yeah times are changing. Infact, i dont even wanna say it but I am playing WoW again, just for arenas. Just to quench my hardcore bloodlust in a timely casual fashion lol I think once us original "Old School" nerds get damn old we will be hardcore again, after the kids are grown and you have experienced life. 2 Cents u can haz

Originally posted by Jallen02

This is my definition of a hardcore gamer...
 

 

So glad I'm not one.

Yeah, you probably just prefer to do this in front of the T.V. watching retarded shows or football instead like most of the masses do.  Let's face facts here.  The masses are the ones that keep moronic T.V. shows such as American Idol on the air year after year.  That is EXACTLY where this genre is heading.

Originally posted by MindTrigger

Originally posted by Jallen02

This is my definition of a hardcore gamer...
 

 

So glad I'm not one.

 

Yeah, you probably just prefer to do this in front of the T.V. watching retarded shows or football instead like most of the masses do.  Let's face facts here.  The masses are the ones that keep moronic T.V. shows such as American Idol on the air year after year.  That is EXACTLY where this genre is heading.

have you suffered a lot of rejection in your life by any chance?
 

Originally posted by Khaunshar

You know, this entire discussion while interesting suffers from the central problem: Nobody actually agrees on any definition of Casual vs. Hardcore.

Which is why my posts step back and say "however you define hardcore, it probably includes 'playing more than the average user', which infers Hardcore = Minority."

That way I can point out that designing games purely for a niche audience (a minority) isn't wise, and that the best games are those which are accessible yet deep.

Originally posted by Sabiancym

Why should we start accepting crappy games?  MMOs are built around the hardcore gamers. 

Without hardcore gamers you wouldn't have guides for the casuals who don't have time to figure a boss fight out.  You wouldn't have entire communities out there dedicated to a game.  No stat breakdowns, no in depth weapon drop locations, no people to turn to when you have a question about what ingredients are needed for a potion.

Without the hardcore all you have a server full of mid-levels fighting the same regular NPCs and going afk every 20 minutes.  Perfect for the game company short term, but terrible for it long term.

 

Every game can be a casual game, just don't whine when someone who plays 10x longer than you is better in every way shape and form.  Which is exactly what today's "Casual" gamers are doing.

This is exactly why if these games stay on the current course NO ONE will want to play them.  They will be the equivalent of taking a ride at disneyland where all you have to do is keep your hands and feet inside the ride at all times.

As the "hardcore" players leave these boring arse games (and the genre), the devs will have to continually dumb down the content until no one wants to play them anymore.  It simply has to happen because the casual players will not have time to learn, plan or play hard endgame content, and they won't have time for a sandbox game at all.  Any way you look at it MMORPG's are going to continue to sprial downward.

Thank god for indie game devs is all I have to say (EVE, Mortal Online, Earthrise, Fallen Earth, etc) for breaking out of the theme-park mould.

Originally posted by jimsmith08

Originally posted by MindTrigger

Originally posted by Jallen02

This is my definition of a hardcore gamer...
 

 

So glad I'm not one.

 

Yeah, you probably just prefer to do this in front of the T.V. watching retarded shows or football instead like most of the masses do.  Let's face facts here.  The masses are the ones that keep moronic T.V. shows such as American Idol on the air year after year.  That is EXACTLY where this genre is heading.

have you suffered a lot of rejection in your life by any chance?

Yeah, if by 'rejection' you mean "success".  I'm just tired of these little A.D.D inflicted kids in here pretending that people who like hard MMORPG games are some fat guy living in his mom's basement.  Due to my job, family and physical activities I probably have less time to game than most people on this site.  That doesn't mean I want these games to be dumbed down for me.

 The definition of hardcore has aparently lost it's meaning:

Back before the WoW-wave,hardcore = a player who plays the game at the max or near max dificulty setting ever striving to achieve it without dedicating a absurd ammount of time to the game compared to most people,basicly a person that learns and masters a game very fast.

casual/softcore (has not lost it's meaning) = who wants a easy to pick up and play game that does not truly reward those that want to get better,it caters to those who play without much free-will direction,basicly carrot on a stick gameplay

Really, I do not know what to do with MMOs anymore. I feel that the time spent in a game per day should not determine if a person is Hardcore. What should determine if someone is hardcore is their dedication to the game, no matter what happens.

But yet, I also feel that people who play very a few hours and only a few days a week also do not push a business far enough to want them to innovate the genre.

So its like a lose/lose situation, for the players. You go hardcore and alienate a large portion of the genre population. Yet if you go casual, most likely you will have no reason to innovate the game. So what do we do?

But of course, this feels like every other generation before us and the others before them, things change and it always hurts more on the older generation. We are all resistant to change but yet change is the only way to move forward. The casual market is where it is at right now and there is nothing we can do about it (unless of course we want to do some drastic measures that our ancestors did).

The only thing I can think of is just try and find your place in the genre or get out. Of course, this is bad in itself also. So good luck with everyone on finding what works for you!

In my opinion, there really isn't too much of a difference between hardcore and casual gamers. Hardcore means you play certain games as a dedication. Casual means you're floating around, and you're not hardcore because you haven't found the games you truly want to play for a while. So in a sense, anyone that is playing certain games for a while and not playing others (for example, you play Guild Wars and EVE Online only for a couple of years) is considered hardcore, while casuals still have to find the game they want to play for a while. You don't have to play 40+hours a week or become really good at the games you play, you just have to like to play certain games for a while and ignore others because you're still interested in the games you're playing right now.

So in other words, casuals eventually become hardcores, they just have to find the game they want to play for a while and love to play.

Making games for the casual players fails.  Period.  WoW is a phenomenon, like the bettles were.  It was in the right place, at the right time.  Everygame released after WoW, still can't top a game that caters to a hardcore niche (Final Fantasy XI).

Ironically, FFXI has not had a server merger in it's 7 years, and my server still averages around 2k players 24/7.  Hardcore gamers are what make the mmo world go round.  

There is a flipside to this tale though.  It's not that War, AoC, etc, catered to the casaul gamers.  The problem with those games is that wow players tried them, and found them to be too hard.  Hell, even WoW in it's current state is even easier than it was pre TBC.  It's become a joke.  Rock Band on "No Fail Mode" is harder than what WoW has became. 

Both definitions are debatable.  If I play over 5 hours a day I could be labeled hardcore, but suppose I also liked games that were easymode extreme, maybe I want to play these easymode games and do everything there is to do in them.

On the other hand If I only play up to 2 or so hours a day, don't care much for PvP or being in the top guild, I could be labeled casual, but at the same time maybe I don't like things like fast travel, maybe I want to explore the area, ride the boat, and not just stay in hot spots while the other 90% of the world rots, maybe at the same time I don't like no death penalty because it seems empty to zerg or empty to win when there was never really any danger in the first place.

Hardcore is nothing more than a label invented by players who wish to defend criticism towards pointless games, claiming that hardcore is for anyone with "no life".  Stll most people have adobted this label as generally any game which isnt the typical carebear easymode type, funny though because there arent many.

the problem is when a game aims for the casual crowd then no one has any real goals.  I was a casual player in in many 'hardcore' MMO's and the thing that kept me going was discovering new things through trial and error and having something to look forward to (raids, PvP...ect).  The problem with the casual games is everything is given to you on a silver platter.  You dont get penalised from your mistakes, you have no real goals to strive for as everything is within easy reach.

I dont think making the whole game casual is a good idea, i think they need to make the level from 1 to max casual and throw in hardcore stuff at the end.  That way the casuals who hardly play are kept happy levelling toons and the hardcore can quickly reach cap and do their hardcore stuff.  Basically do what WoW does.

Give me a GOOD MMO first and I'll go back to being hardcore but at the moment I wouldn't waste my time playing these cookie cutter level based MMOs. The truth is if it wasn't for the hardcore gamers then the MMO market wouldn't be around because the casual player jumps ship when a new game comes out. I still don't understand the whole I don't have the time to play that much... Well... I suggest playing a single player game and stop complaining because I have a life outside of games and still have time to play.

People didn't flock to WoW because it was labled by the devs as a "casual" game. They flocked to it because it had a cool, original feel to it and made an impression on them. Its the same with any sucessful MMO, video game or product for that matter. Stop basing the development of your game on a list of features that the "casual" players will enjoy or what the latest trend is and create something original that leaves a lasting impression on them and maybe people will buy and SUBSCRIBE to your game instead of canceling after the free month. "Hardcore" dead? I say we kill it along with "Casual" and start making some good games.

Originally posted by RZetlin

 

---

Why Games Aren’t Art, and Hardcore MMO Players Are Yesterday’s News

 

The MMO Gamer: So then you’re the sort of person who believes that the industry is becoming more bite-sized, casual game focused, as opposed to hardcore AAA title focused?

Paul Barnett: We’re getting more casual players, and wider audiences who are less obsessed with the old-school. You’ve got people who want to have their gaming time defined. “I’ve got half an hour before I’m going out. I know playing this game will only take half an hour,” or “I’ve got to put the kids to bed. I know that if I let them play this game, I can say ‘you’ve got one more level’,” knowing that one more level means 30 minutes and you can get them to bed.

The “I want to do stuff before I go shopping, or before the football’s on.” The “I want to be able to share that information, I want it to be viral. I want to turn up at work and be like ‘Hey, man, I’ve been playing this crazy game. Here, I can beam it straight to your mobile.’”

You know, people who generally don’t have a hardcore computer room can get interested in this idea and understand what it is.

---

 

It somewhat gets to the argument of Casual vs. Hardcore.

The majority of people don't care that you have spent 60 hours of blood and tears playing to get that special MMORPG item because people have other better things to do.

I love you...

Whatever floats your boat. The onlything I don't understand is why casual players expect to do everything a hardcore/nolifer player does.

Whats wrong with having epic raid bosses like the ones in FFXI and Lineage 2 that were alive for years before getting killed? Why can't a casual gamer be satisfied raiding a teir lower than a hardcore gamer? Why shouldn't hardcore gamers get rewarded more than just more time = more rewards when they can do things that other games might not be able to.

Say for example would everyone who can't do a 40 man in WoW quit if there was still 40 man content that gave you gear better than 25 man, and all existing WoW content stayed? People, or at least developers seem to think that making a game casual simply means you make every aspect of the game easier.

Originally posted by Calind0r 

Whats wrong with having epic raid bosses like the ones in FFXI and Lineage 2 that were alive for years before getting killed? Why can't a casual gamer be satisfied raiding a teir lower than a hardcore gamer? Why shouldn't hardcore gamers get rewarded more than just more time = more rewards when they can do things that other games might not be able to.

Say for example would everyone who can't do a 40 man in WoW quit if there was still 40 man content that gave you gear better than 25 man, and all existing WoW content stayed? People, or at least developers seem to think that making a game casual simply means you make every aspect of the game easier. 

Not everyone, but certainly players like me who would take it as a sign that Blizzard has lost touch with what makes games fun, because they'd be stepping in a direction away from fun rather than towards it.

Raiding's major failing for me is that it isn't any harder for me personally to fight a raid boss vs. a heroic boss.  Instead, the "challenge" comes in the form of getting 25 players all performing at that level of expertise, simultaneously.

The critical failure is that succeeding in raids is more a measure of your guild leader's management skill, than your skill as a player.

WOW would hold absolute sway over my gaming dollar if they ever implemented better 5-10 man scaling, with the most challenging content in the game and the best rewards (either make Heroics hard, or create Legendary as an entirely new tier.)  Because I can get better personally but the effort required to teach other players to be that good is frustrating and not fun for me.  If I wanted to be a teacher, I'd work as a teacher in real life.  If I wanted to be a manager, I'd work as a manager in real life.  Neither of these occupations are seen as particularly "fun," and they're also not very fun in games. 

Originally posted by andrewclear

Hell, even WoW in it's current state is even easier than it was pre TBC. 

What do you mean "even"? I was in one of the really small percentage of the guilds who raided naxx in 60 and it was hard as fuck.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Calind0r 

Whats wrong with having epic raid bosses like the ones in FFXI and Lineage 2 that were alive for years before getting killed? Why can't a casual gamer be satisfied raiding a teir lower than a hardcore gamer? Why shouldn't hardcore gamers get rewarded more than just more time = more rewards when they can do things that other games might not be able to.

Say for example would everyone who can't do a 40 man in WoW quit if there was still 40 man content that gave you gear better than 25 man, and all existing WoW content stayed? People, or at least developers seem to think that making a game casual simply means you make every aspect of the game easier. 

Not everyone, but certainly players like me who would take it as a sign that Blizzard has lost touch with what makes games fun, because they'd be stepping in a direction away from fun rather than towards it.

Raiding's major failing for me is that it isn't any harder for me personally to fight a raid boss vs. a heroic boss.  Instead, the "challenge" comes in the form of getting 25 players all performing at that level of expertise, simultaneously.

 

The critical failure is that succeeding in raids is more a measure of your guild leader's management skill, than your skill as a player.

WOW would hold absolute sway over my gaming dollar if they ever implemented better 5-10 man scaling, with the most challenging content in the game and the best rewards (either make Heroics hard, or create Legendary as an entirely new tier.)  Because I can get better personally but the effort required to teach other players to be that good is frustrating and not fun for me.  If I wanted to be a teacher, I'd work as a teacher in real life.  If I wanted to be a manager, I'd work as a manager in real life.  Neither of these occupations are seen as particularly "fun," and they're also not very fun in games. 

 

Lets see, when WoW was released it was touted as an mmo for casual gamers.  Not at all.  Blizzard just said they took concepts from other games before it, and changed what they didn't like about those concepts.  IE, faster battles, jack of all trades jobs, etc.  In the end, they still were targeting the hardcore gamer.  The raids in the original wow, weren't a joke like they are now.  The drop rates were terrible, and it took a long time to get gear.  It took longer to level up to 60 (although some ppl could still get there in a few weeks, if they had no life).  Hell, even in FFXI (touted as the worst game to level in), you can get to 75 in 2 weeks if you play night and day, and have a PL.

WoW is the largest mmos for several factors.  #1, it came out after ffxi, which brought in a ton of ppl who never played mmos before cause of the FF name.  #2 it came after ffxi, where it was so hardcore that a lot of ppl needed something a little easier.  #3, Blizzard did a great job at marketing it.  #4 word of mouth, that spread like wildfire.  #5, the teeny boopers made it the next fad (that, is a powerful selling tool that no developer can count on).  #6, one of the first major mmos to offer a free trial early on.  #7, didn't need a credit card.  #8, was popular so everyone wanted to try it.  #9, China got into selling gold :)

And, Blizzard didn't lose touch with their fans.  They read the complaints about the game, and made it easier.  They never expected WoW to be this successfull (remember, they had to stop selling the game for a few months, to setup more servers to support the demand).  They never intended it to be casual, but they went in that direction in the end.  By doing so, they killed the majority of the content in their game.  They also lost a lot of their hard core base.  Once the teeny boppers leave, and the casuals get tired of it, WoW will be in trouble (well except for the millions of subs in china that farm gold).

 hardcore only means that you have all the time in a world just play these games and yes whuhuu by that you are hardcore...

lame

casual only means that you have something else to do also in your days than just play games ( work, family, friends ((non pixelated)) )

so if someone calls him/herself as a hardcore player under m0llys eyes it only means what i write above!

cheers,

Originally posted by andrewclear

Making games for the casual players fails.  Period.  WoW is a phenomenon, like the bettles were.  It was in the right place, at the right time.  Everygame released after WoW, still can't top a game that caters to a hardcore niche (Final Fantasy XI).

Ironically, FFXI has not had a server merger in it's 7 years, and my server still averages around 2k players 24/7.  Hardcore gamers are what make the mmo world go round.  

There is a flipside to this tale though.  It's not that War, AoC, etc, catered to the casaul gamers.  The problem with those games is that wow players tried them, and found them to be too hard.  Hell, even WoW in it's current state is even easier than it was pre TBC.  It's become a joke.  Rock Band on "No Fail Mode" is harder than what WoW has became. 

The Beatles had enormous musical talent, thats why they where successful. It had nothing to do with being at the right place at the right time.

WoW was a success because of massive marketing, low hardware requirements, right target market, and good enough overall implementation quality. They managed to get over the gap where the "your friend plays it too" effect starts to work - everybody plays WoW, so their friends start playing WoW too.

And I dont think the average gamer is getting more stupid over time. WoW clones fail because they are WoW clones. Why play a bad copy if you can play the original ?

You can tie hardcore games to the 90s era of entertainment. Prime example of this would be Hardcore mmos player are like old school ECW fans, once the 2000s came they got wiped away for the casual people. I am sad to say, besides coming to this site at random times, I rarely look at any mmos anymore. Went back to the consoles and fallout 3 and jedi knight academy. The industry is failing, too saturated with crappy games going into the RMT era. Fuck all that. SWGEmu save me!!!!

I sense a wanring or ban coming my way this week, if so yay!!!!!!

Originally posted by andrewclear

Making games for the casual players fails.  Period.  WoW is a phenomenon, like the bettles were.  It was in the right place, at the right time.  Everygame released after WoW, still can't top a game that caters to a hardcore niche (Final Fantasy XI).

Ironically, FFXI has not had a server merger in it's 7 years, and my server still averages around 2k players 24/7.  Hardcore gamers are what make the mmo world go round.  

There is a flipside to this tale though.  It's not that War, AoC, etc, catered to the casaul gamers.  The problem with those games is that wow players tried them, and found them to be too full of bugs and unfinished.  Hell, even WoW in it's current state is even easier than it was pre TBC.  It's become a joke.  Rock Band on "No Fail Mode" is harder than what WoW has became. 

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Calind0r 

Whats wrong with having epic raid bosses like the ones in FFXI and Lineage 2 that were alive for years before getting killed? Why can't a casual gamer be satisfied raiding a teir lower than a hardcore gamer? Why shouldn't hardcore gamers get rewarded more than just more time = more rewards when they can do things that other games might not be able to.

Say for example would everyone who can't do a 40 man in WoW quit if there was still 40 man content that gave you gear better than 25 man, and all existing WoW content stayed? People, or at least developers seem to think that making a game casual simply means you make every aspect of the game easier. 

Not everyone, but certainly players like me who would take it as a sign that Blizzard has lost touch with what makes games fun, because they'd be stepping in a direction away from fun rather than towards it.

Raiding's major failing for me is that it isn't any harder for me personally to fight a raid boss vs. a heroic boss.  Instead, the "challenge" comes in the form of getting 25 players all performing at that level of expertise, simultaneously.

 

The critical failure is that succeeding in raids is more a measure of your guild leader's management skill, than your skill as a player.

WOW would hold absolute sway over my gaming dollar if they ever implemented better 5-10 man scaling, with the most challenging content in the game and the best rewards (either make Heroics hard, or create Legendary as an entirely new tier.)  Because I can get better personally but the effort required to teach other players to be that good is frustrating and not fun for me.  If I wanted to be a teacher, I'd work as a teacher in real life.  If I wanted to be a manager, I'd work as a manager in real life.  Neither of these occupations are seen as particularly "fun," and they're also not very fun in games. 

 

I don't really get it, if WoW was exactly the same as it is right now, but they added 40 man content with new gear, it would appeal to more people, and nothing would change for the other people, they would just have to accept that some things will be too hard or unavailable for them.