All i can say is.. as long as there are kids playing games full of grind.. the industry will come out with more grind games :3

Okay, Sure the meaning of MMO Has gone from actually playing the damned game from being a newb to becoming the MVP of the MMO, or at least trying your damnedest to. To just trying to go Sloooooooowly and have just as much fun. Sure some of the people playing seriously take about from a year to five, depending on how much playing, the experience systerm, the level cap, the skill builds, and the Cash shop items bought, also the events. Now you can't even find a person in like, say, MS that isn't either a high level ***hole or some person who doesn't even play much. And take WoW for an example, sure the thing is ment to be a casual game, sure it has new graphics, same ****ing skills, ECT, but it still has people that are hardcore grinders and gamers, Sure grinders might get to like, I dunno, 50 in one or two months? And a gamer might take 1.5 or 2 times that, but they still take the game seriously.

I being a core gamer myself, Not paying for jack, Would have to search my damnedest to find a Hardcore MMO, and 80% of the MMOs that fit that catagory are like, PTP, I can find a game that i can take seriously for a while. But as the thread maker said, You can barely find an MMO that is hardcore, Much less that actually has you keep on the damn game for more than a couple weeks, the best game I played, lasted me a year, and held on to me for two more, before I realized, that I was acting more casual than core playing the game. Some games that are hardcore, you don't even want to bloody play! For several reasons, One of them is the one that hits people the hardest, you can't get into a bloody community, such as a clan or a guild, just your friends list, I have come to get to, just doesn't work it. On the last game I played, I found a guild, Joined it, and it kept me on the bloody game for at least 3x than I would have being guildless. Though finding a Hardcore MMO is harder than trying to find one that will occupy your spare time.

In essence, Hardcore MMO's, Are in fact, Not dead, Just the good ones are. The mediocre and OK mmos, they're there, Just they freakin' cost you to play.

i don't consider myself as a hardcore player as i don't have 10+ hours a day on gaming

but i do find newer MMO lack of creative and content

damn, my best MMO exprience so far is on Shadowbane, people consider it as hardcore pvp game

but i find it very entertaining and player do really have huge amount of freedom and impact

MMO like WOW(which i played for year and half) is so dull, solve this quest, raid then enter the pvp instance that doesn't really mean much thing

i really wish one day there will be a game like Shadowbane with PVE content()the flaw of SB or even early DAOC is lack of proper pve content)

Originally posted by Qinshien

I think WoW is farthest from Hardcore... When I think of hardcore, I think of EQ1, thousands of people fighting 1 dragon boss.  I think of Lineage doing the same... I think of FF11 that takes you 30 hours of your life to get to lvl 18 to get you a subjob so you can start to really play...  Rewards that are worth it... WoW has no rewards, titles, that do nothing You don't feel like you have accomplished anything especially when you know you spent 7 months to get all your gear and the guy standing there just turned 80 and they outrolled you to get something better.... 

 

WoW was made for the softcore person, and hey they admit it... why did they turn 40 man raids into 25... cause they felt it was too hard to get 40 people? Cause 40 was too hardcore... we have to make our content easier...  blah blah blah...

So hardcore game = a game that you spend more time doing nothing than actually playing? How is tons of people fighting for 1 mob a good thing?

Your not really specifing what is a Hardcore MMO.   

I like Roma Victor, I consider it a hardcore MMO... but its not a game for everyone.   Others would honestly consider Darkfall a Hardcore MMO... while even others still, would consider PotBS, a hardcore MMO...

Depends on what you consider a hardcore MMO.    I just have to say they are are out there, they just arent as popular as the mindless drove MMOs out there.   You have to remember most of the games on the market today are aimed at your typical american tween, who has had everything spoon feed to them over the course of their lives, and honestly havent had to really do anything to get anything.    Dont belive me, go out to a fast food resteraunt and ask for something different, like a cheeseburger with mustard, mayo, and onions.... and you have some braindead tween get your order wrong 75% of the time... why because they dont know how to THINK.    So they want their games like their lives, handed to them.  Easy levels, easy kills, easy mode.

Originally posted by wh0astar

 

This person makes a good point that hardcore MMO’s are dead. That is the only point that is valid, BUT.. there are quite a couple of MMO’s in different genres to choose from, though. Seriously, why call themselves hardcore gamers if they can’t really play for so long without being on long hiatuses? lol. They call themselves hardcore just because of long period of subscriptions and got a couple of epic items? Kiss my ass! That specific label ought to be banned just because many gamer wannabes claim to be hardcore, but is only the opposite. No need to call other people trolls and carebears. Get over yourselves, posers.

WoW is NOT at fault for having the games up to par with them. They’re NOT at fault for the games to fold. They’re just simply successful with millions of dollars to be able to continue to make the game better. Don’t hate the game.

I believe that WoW (World of Warcraft) is one hardcore MMO; for a couple of reasons in specific order - It’s everlasting, and hasn’t died.. The expansions keeps coming because the playerbase is still rocketing everyday with new and recurring members.. and not everyone has gotten through all the content and has achieved all the epic gears. I recall a couple of people struggling to get what they want, but the requirements are so demanding in the game that they have to make themselves more useful via stats, gears and the skills that are done properly. A variety of guilds are a bit snobbish at that point being less helpful with inexperienced players that are aching to be a part of the guild, instance runs and raids.. Or simply just to form a new friendship among the peers. I’m one of the certain few along with my boyfriend to help people because I know it’s hard to top skilled players and it’s unnecessary to compare yourself with them. It’s merely just a game to play, to enjoy yourselves.. and not to view it as a responsibility. Why do people view it as a responsibility when it really isn’t? They don’t think of it in their conciousness but, from other people’s perspective.. it is what they’re doing. They get all stressed out, pissed, and whine @ their failures.. It’s just a fucking game! Scratch that, it’s a fuckin’ awesome game.

Back to the point, World of Warcraft is a hardcore MMO, period. It’s still alive today and will be for so many years with all those kids that has been aching to play when they were babies.. watching their parents play and it will pass on to many generations in the years to come. I know this, because my kid is 11 and he wants to play so badly but I decline.. for merely one reason; he’s too fuckin’ young.

So yeah.. maybe WoW graphics isn’t so up to par like Final Fantasy, AoC, WAR, Aion, Darkfall, and/or any of those upcoming games that “hardcore” gamers are anticipating to play - So snobbish on graphics, and go “yeah this is so DX10! Better than WoW’s cartoonish graphics” /eyeroll. Gimme a break — Cool down on the graphics, seriously. There’s better things to talk about out there, like.. how the content is.. how the players are towards eachother, how the combat system is, how awesome the developers are..

You know what’s so funny? Those “hardcore” gamers, not even one, do not give praise to any of the developers who has made so many games in all those years in the past and now. I’d know this because I read mmorpg.com daily - All they do is bitch and bitch and bitch all over again. Never satisfied, never appreciative, never grateful. I always pass out kudos - They deserve it. Those gamers never realize that the games out are to keep us entertained, to kill time and not just play on consoles and/or twiddle thumbs to reach the new level of insanity. Those nimrods need to get over themselves. Everyone in the gaming companies are trying their best to make it work for all of you guys. Just keep that in mind.

Sure, I’m lookin’ forward to so many new games out there.. but I’m not one to look down at people and/or do a bitchfest on forums every single fuckin’ day when they could simply find something better to do, like.. play a fuckin’ game. lol. If that game couldn’t be playable at the moment, then tell yourself.. “Oh, well.. it gives me the chance to take a shower”… HOW ABOUT THAT?!?!?

Now, in conclusion; THERE ARE NO HARDCORE GAMERS OUT THERE. Every one of you are ALL THE SAME in the gaming world. You MAY be skilled, MAY be intelligent, MAY be AWESOME, MAY be less of a dickhead, but not a hardcore anything.

Whatev, this may not be in relation to the article, it’s my 2 cents.

 

 

Were you just commenting on "how the players are towards eachother" in regards to WoW?  Im not gonna say its a horrible game (although personally its not my type) but even the biggest WoW fans will agree at least the COMMUNITY is terrible.  You could even argue that the community is "infecting" other games.  There werent half as many asshats in mmos before WoW came out.

I dont think graphics were ever much of an issue, its hardly ever even brought up in discussions i have with people over mmos.  Mostly its just about gameplay.

I dont consider myself "hardcore" im not even sure what that word means.  Do i consider myself better than all the rest of the gamers?...No.  Im just so sick and tired of these redundant games.  Its "go collect 6 boar tusks and acquire your epic spear!" Its just not my type of game.  I understand that people want to be able to get good loot while only playing 10 minutes or whatever but if im lucky enough to actually get an "epic" item i want it to be.......epic.  I want to log on and see that item and get excited each time i see it.  I want to have different gear than everyone else. 

In games now its "at lvl 30 a rogue should be equiping this dagger in his mainhand and this dagger in his offhand"  Or everyone has the same chest piece at lvl 25 because its this crazy good piece of equipment  thats easy to get.  these "cookie cutter" builds or characters are just so BORING.  If I make a character I want it to be something I made.  It has to be different, im tired of being exactly the same as everyone else in these games because all the best loot is easy to get, or this selection of skill points is best when distributed this way.

the problem aint game maker

check wow blizzard had to nerf ulduar ,why most group couldnt pass what pro passed .

it wasnt even on hard mode yet

for 95 % of gamer casual is hard enough

if they add hard mode a very hard game you might be the only one willing or hable to pass it with your friend

in the very first days of ulduar very few made it

not for the lack of trying but the combat was too involved

and one other thing the guys that passed were guys and girl that have been gaming together as a group for a long time

average gamer might change guild 3 time this month lol

it takes years as group to build a synergy

those guys they know that if they turn their back someone is watching his back no mather what

very very few group or guild work as a group as what the few first guild that ran and made it to the end in ulduar before the first nerf

it took insane synergy

Originally posted by midgey555

  There werent half as many asshats in mmos before WoW came out.

Before WoW came out, the average MUD/MMO gamer was in their late teens to early 30s. It was never seen as necessary or appropriate to attract 12 - 16 year olds to these games, because at the time chat rooms and the internet in general had a huge stigma as a breeding ground for predators.

Blizzard, with their huge success /w Diablo II, the veritable 12 year old "asshat" playground, realized that by limiting the social aspect of MMOs and ramping up the "gameplay," they could make a virtual preschool that parents would find safe enough to be willing to pay $15 to get their screaming brats out of their hair on weekends and after school hours.

The catch? There's a far larger tween gamer base than the 19-35 crowd, and almost all marketing is now geared towards attracting the tweens. The infestation is not WoW's fault. It's the fault of all the companies out there mirroring Blizzard's tactics in hopes of somehow matching their subs.

Nobody's bothering /w the hardcore because in the end, there aren't enough of them to pay the development costs at the end of the year.

Originally posted by Vallanor 

I really hope future games can eliminate the old-school grind models while simultaneously avoiding the newer style of solo quest grinding that is so prevalent in games from WoW to EQ2 and beyond.  How this can be done, I can't really say.  If you've got any ideas, I'd really like to hear them! 

City of Heroes has a superb balance of group vs. solo XP.  Group XP is the best way to go, whereas Solo XP is enough to be worthwhile but slightly worse than the XP you can earn in a group, and significantly worse than the XP you can earn in a skilled group.

The "grind" is sort of still there, but mostly because CoX isn't about rushing to "endgame" so much as it's about doing the content. The important powers tend to be frontloaded (made available early during leveling.)

Originally posted by Waterlily

Hardcore, when talking about EQ, used to mean "You have a lot of time".

It never meant "You're awesome at this game".

I have to disagree here. I'm not calling for a "core" revolution, but with EQ's XP loss and corpse runs if you sucked at the game you probably wouldn't make it far.

I just want to see more challenges and penalties, personally. There should be great rewards for success and great penalties for failure.

Originally posted by KaitarBesh

And it couldn't POSSIBLY be because all those "hardcore" people from 10 years ago are now older, have full time jobs and families and other important things to do rather than dedicate 8 hours a day or more to a bunch of pixelated loot, right?

 

The player base is changing. They'd be stupid not to adjust their games accordingly.

 

I will agree the MMO genre is a bit stale atm with all of them having the same "flavor" but saying that only "core" players deserve to play is pretty ...well. Stupid.

This this the most sensible post I have read in these forums in a while.

You sir are the grand prize winner!

Originally posted by x_rast_x

I dunno.  Lots of old games are not only still around, but doing better than ever.

CCP recently claimed in an interview they're the #2 MMO in NA now.  EvE is about as hardcore as it gets, so I can't see the market going away anytime soon.

From what I've heard, FFXI recently hit a new peak as well, and it's a very solo-unfriendly game.  And the reviews I've seen on Darkfall from core gamers have for the most part been very positive, I think it has a real shot at growing into the next big sandbox game.

People just need to understand that an MMO that's pitched strongly at a specific segment of the MMO market will only do well in that particular segment.  You won't any of the games I just mentioned grow to WoW-levels because they're not aimed at the mass market, and value slow growth and high vet retention rates over masses of high-turnover casuals.

WoW and the Blizzard Hype Machine have caused people to put way too much stock in sub numbers.  Try a game for yourself - if you like it that's all that matters.

Then they are claiming to have more subs than Warhammer which had 300k subs earlier this year.

At the OP: Yes you are right.

And I doubt that EVE will ever reach one million subs globally.