Originally posted by SgtFrog

its easier to balance, its really hard to balance a game with no classes, and people well jsut end up copying each others builds anway

It works in pen and paper RPGs so it should work in MMOs too.

You need to balance all skills against eachother, not just how good they are but also how much they cost to aquire. In a game where you just train all skills balance is almost impossible (for a class less MMO) but where you buy the skills for XP you can use that to balance things.

Also you must make the game so all skills are useful. Putting in a climb skill that only are used in a few places of the game is useless, that  will only lead to build copying.

But if you make skills needed. like a disarm trap skill that a party needs to get through most dungeons withou taking a lot of damage or a track skill that makes you see creatures on your minimap.

All skills should be something everybody wish they could have and they should need all skills except a certain weapon skill in a group. If you have climbing skill and a lot of climbable areas you have to make it so the guy climbing out can throw down a rope and pull up the rest of the party and you need quite a few places where it is useful.

Still you need the game playable without a skill, but a party should be better of with all skills. The problem today is that some sills are very useful while others suck.

But in no way should a characer be able to get all skills, he must pick some or chose a template. People should have to make choices.

Originally posted by IRNUB

I know what you mean. But both you and me know that such a game will probably never exist.

Ofc you should always be able to pick other skills when you want. But i would really like a new game with only one character per server. That way you always have your name no matter what skills you have. If you are a retard, the community will know. That is a good way to have a good community imo.

 

* With this i do not mean that you can be everything at the same time. Limited skillpoints ffs :)

That was actually my biggest gripe with SWG.  I am a person who

-likes to try different options in games

-really gets attached to the characters I build

-likes to play with friends

So in SWG I created a very nice character whom I eveolved into a Rifleman/Ranger.  It was fun to play but after a while I wanted to try something else like an entertainer or doctor.  So my only options were:

-completely wreck a character I really liked

or

-roll a new character on another server thus leaving all my friends behind

or

-buy a second account

SInce neither of these options were acceptable, I simply played along for a while more and then joined my friends when they moved over to WoW.

The 'one character per server' rule of SWG pretty much nuked any desire to continue playing the game.

I'm not going to comment on what makes business sense or on what most people want.  I wouldn't know about either of those.

I'm just going to talk about what I want.

What I want above all in a game is to be making interesting choices.  Classes seem to impede that by making decisions for me.

Specialisation can still be encouraged through doing things like basing skills on different stats (EVE), having beginning skills act as prerequisites for more advanced later skills (EVE), encouraging people to use different sets of gear for different purposes (EVE), letting people only use a subset of their skills at any given time (Guild Wars), and synnergy between skills (both).

Here's a thought...

A good majority of MMOs are Fantasy based right? 

At least if you compare Fantasy vs. Non-Fantasy there are a lot more Fantasy MMOs right?

Of all the Non-Fantasy MMOs the majority of those are Sci Fi. I'd even consider super-hero/comic MMOs to be a subset of Sci Fi.

Skill based advancement like EVE or old SWG makes a lot more sense for a Sci Fi game then it does for a fantasy game.

Class based games with choosing and fitting a D&D defined RPG role is a lot better suited for fantasy games.

Classes like Knights and Mages and Clerics and such are a staple of fantasy RPGs and even fantasy fiction from books to movies and board games and such. There are nearly always characters that fit those certain archetypes.

But in Sci Fi I think you get a lot more wiggle room. You don't have pre-defiend roles like tanks and healers per say because it's not magic based. You have a lot more room to mix and match different skills... which leads Sci Fi games to being a little better suited for skill based advancement or classless MMOs.

And so far, there has not been a Sci Fi MMO that has really taken off, but there have been a lot of failures. In contrast there have been some fantasy MMOs that have really taken off and become popular. 

So perhaps class free MMOs are so rare because high quality Sci Fi MMOs have been VERY rare.

 Last time I checked in EVE Online, my character is not a 'cookie cutter template'. Sorry guys, not all MMOs are simplified for kindergardeners like WoW/LOTRO and their ilk

Gasp! Yes it is possible for a classless MMO to have lots of diversity! Just needs to be designed that way

That being said- I wouldn't mind a Class based MMO if it were indepth like Guild Wars (allowed multiclassing to a crazy extent).

Originally posted by Aganazer

Originally posted by Taram

Originally posted by Aganazer

You CAN make a classless system that avoids some of its shortcomings. It just hasn't been done very well yet. As an example, imagine WoW's talent trees except each tree is sort of like a class. Most players would end up specializing in one tree and then pick another tree as a secondary. In that case its more like the primary and secondary class system used in Runes of Magic except its still a classless system. Champions Online has a classless system that works sort of like that.

 

You have apparently never played Pre-CU SWG, EVE Online or the original Ultima Online.   As the OP stated even Asheron's Call (the original) was fairly class-free as well.

Let's just put it this way:

1) It can be done

2) It has been done

3) For those who enjoy such systems class based systems don't even come CLOSE to touching it.

Yes I played UO and AC for years and years. I've also played all the Ultimas, Elder Scrolls, and Gothic games as well. While there may have been some variety in the subtle details, most people had characters that fell into a few common categories (or more often, all categories!). Everyone I knew in UO could wear plate armor, cast top rank spells, and use at least one weapon type effectively. There really weren't any roles to fill because everyone did it all by themselves.

I'm not saying a classless system hasn't been done as it obviously has. It hasn't been done in a way that creates the diversity of play styles that we see in games with classes. I have yet to see a classless game where player characters fill more narrow roles creating a need for a lot of diversity.

God do people like you ever stop to think for one second what would you do if you were in the middle of a frickin WARZONE? Would you run outside in a t-shirt and blue jeans with bullets whizzing by left and right???? I dont think so!

Soldiers wear armor. ALWAYS.

I am so sorry but WoW, EQ, and all that BS is plain stupid and beyond silly. The whole concept of a Mage running in a dress in the middle of a battlefield was always retarded. Sorry D&D, that was retarded and it just goes to show retarded concepts will stick around til the end of time!

That would never work in REAL LIFE. You join the Army and go to war you will be skilled with a WEAPON plus will ALWAYS wear armor.

Games these days defy all logic and reason (besides the few clever ones like EVE, etc)

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by SgtFrog

its easier to balance, its really hard to balance a game with no classes, and people well jsut end up copying each others builds anway

 

It works in pen and paper RPGs so it should work in MMOs too.

You need to balance all skills against eachother, not just how good they are but also how much they cost to aquire. In a game where you just train all skills balance is almost impossible (for a class less MMO) but where you buy the skills for XP you can use that to balance things.

Also you must make the game so all skills are useful. Putting in a climb skill that only are used in a few places of the game is useless, that  will only lead to build copying.

But if you make skills needed. like a disarm trap skill that a party needs to get through most dungeons withou taking a lot of damage or a track skill that makes you see creatures on your minimap.

All skills should be something everybody wish they could have and they should need all skills except a certain weapon skill in a group. If you have climbing skill and a lot of climbable areas you have to make it so the guy climbing out can throw down a rope and pull up the rest of the party and you need quite a few places where it is useful.

Still you need the game playable without a skill, but a party should be better of with all skills. The problem today is that some sills are very useful while others suck.

But in no way should a characer be able to get all skills, he must pick some or chose a template. People should have to make choices.

I never played PnP RPG, but if it will work in an MMORPG then why did'nt DnD online use it in there game? i mean DnD was orginally a PnP RPG.

Originally posted by PatchDay

God do people like you ever stop to think for one second

Yeah, like you're gonna get a reasonable response by starting out your post with something like that...

you know what I am silly! I forget in D&D you can MULTICLASS and wear Armor anyways. Yes, your magic would take a penalty. But you could wear armor. But alas, a Mage should always get one shot when hit by a sword.

but at least it wasn't total fail like WoW and such which took their model and dumbed it down to a crazy level.

Originally posted by Venger

We have so many class mmo because they are easier to develop and balance.  Look at WoW vs UO, WoW you need to balance 9 classes and associated weapons and armor while UO you had to balance sword, fencing, mace, archery, parry, tactics, healing, anatomy, magery, eval int, meditation, spell resist,....... and every different combonation of them along with associated weapons and armor.  And yes their has to be some sort of balance or you will end up with everyone being the tank mage of old UO.

if the game maker added an auto debuf on say a win and a buff on loose till say x% game maker would have way less balancing to do

I didn't read all 10+ pages so sorry if someone already said this, but if anyone is looking for a good jobless game I highly recommend Titan Online.  The graphics aren't out of this world but your character is completely crafted from stat points, weapon/magic skills, and passive skills and theres lots to do.  I think it just got out of Open Beta, might even still be in Open Beta.  It's f2p too.

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

 

Do you enjoy watching 100% improvisational movies?

 

If you said no, that's why we have classes. If you said yes, this is why we have so few games without classes.

Thanks.

 

Bad argument, not even related.  When I watch a movie, I want someone to know what they are doing.  If I am playing a video game, on the other hand, I would like to be able to have complete control over everything and not be thrown in to a premade class.  I don't dislike classes, but I would prefer more freedom in character creation so that I could be a mage priest with a bow and arrow instead of a shadow priest or druid or whatever.  The format of a movie and a video game are only very loosely related.