well i guess we should take look the positive and the negative side of fast levelling in current mmo's.

i just want to pin point that being a high level has many good things to do and many good / rare items that you can get especially in doing dungeon quest. Unlike if your a low or mid level you have a limit in accessing some features or quest and even limit in wearing weapons and armors.

 Lol ok maybe you don't play too much but being able to play longer cause you dont watch TV is a bad excuse :p

I get it you enjoy video games so you make time for them even though they aren't really the best choice or someone with limited time.

You did mention while leveling in wow you got a new weapon every level playing WoW. That to me is an exaggeration. I remember getting a new weapon every few levels... 5-6 usually unless you spent every moment on the game searching for another one in a different dungeon rather than question ... I simply got my next weapon in every new dungeon and paced it out.

Originally posted by DukeTyrion

I think part of the reason that I am for the end game, is that I know the items I am collecting and using along the way are only temporary, so the items I collect in the end game will at least last.

I don't like the fact that there even is a mention of an 'end-game' in games. To me MMOs are about just having an alternate world you travel to. When developers create an end-game it provides the users an ultimate goal. There should never be end-game content in an MMO. Users should create their own goals instead of the devs providing that goal in the form of a carrot in front of our face. I think this is a big reason why most of the games from early MMO days seemed different than they do now. There was more of a sense of freedom in game instead of the users being labrats as the devs watched our bumps into walls and removed the walls when we were too dumb to get around them and go the other way.

Originally posted by girlgeek

For instance, how many of you ever even bother to READ quests?  Do you know the game lore of whatever MMO you're playing?  Do you care?  Do you follow the unfolding of the STORY throughout a game?  Do you ever stop to wonder just who that NPC is that you just spoke to and what their "motives" are in the situation?  Do you gather with guildmates for "parties," plans of attack on opposing factions?  Do you roleplay (no, I don't mean in the MAJOR sense of what's done on pure RP type servers, but just playing around)?  Do you, while questing, ever go wandering off to explore some area you see far away that looks interesting?

The problem is, the lore in most games is both boring and entirely irrelevant to whatever you're actually doing in the game.  It simply doesn't affect anything and whatever people do doesn't change anything.  The NPCs don't have motives because the designers never thought that far ahead.  What you're describing here is just a bunch of mindgames, thinking of things that the designers never bothered with because it's a way to waste time.

Come up with a way for any of that to be meaningful and you might have a point, otherwise...

Originally posted by Refnu

Originally posted by DukeTyrion

I think part of the reason that I am for the end game, is that I know the items I am collecting and using along the way are only temporary, so the items I collect in the end game will at least last.

I don't like the fact that there even is a mention of an 'end-game' in games. To me MMOs are about just having an alternate world you travel to. When developers create an end-game it provides the users an ultimate goal. There should never be end-game content in an MMO. Users should create their own goals instead of the devs providing that goal in the form of a carrot in front of our face. I think this is a big reason why most of the games from early MMO days seemed different than they do now. There was more of a sense of freedom in game instead of the users being labrats as the devs watched our bumps into walls and removed the walls when we were too dumb to get around them and go the other way.

 

 

Those old games felt more like jobs than entertainment to me.  Not sure how they were more free than today's games.  You had to play the hardcore way or jump ship.  There was very little if any leeway for any other kind of play style.  It's easy to say a game is great when it cater's to your play style, not so much when it doesn't.  It's even worse if they only do a half assed job at it.  The trick is finding a game that fits you, rather than trying to make IT conform to your needs.

There are still new games out or coming out that level or progress slowly.  Darkfall, Aion, Final Fantasy XIV, Runes of Magic, The Chronicles of Spellborn plus all kinds of Asian F2P grinders.  It's not as if casual games are actually dominating the market.  It's only because WoW is such a huge success that you hardcores seem to obsess about your standing in the genre even though your play style still controls the market

The older games that you people complain about becoming more casual are still way too hardcore for casuals to enjoy.  So, I'm not sure why you keep using it as proof that the genre has slid completely and irrivocably to the casual side.

Originally posted by Jumper2k

 Lol ok maybe you don't play too much but being able to play longer cause you dont watch TV is a bad excuse :p

I get it you enjoy video games so you make time for them even though they aren't really the best choice or someone with limited time.

You did mention while leveling in wow you got a new weapon every level playing WoW. That to me is an exaggeration. I remember getting a new weapon every few levels... 5-6 usually unless you spent every moment on the game searching for another one in a different dungeon rather than question ... I simply got my next weapon in every new dungeon and paced it out.

from my personal experiencei  can say tv is bad for most people health ,bad news bad news and more bad news ,i used to like it but when i decided to sell my home teater and do something else it was the best thing i did for my health.

never had gamed online before,tried it liked it,but the  mold of games need to be renewed trough a pvp quest system 

bercause most player are bored to death with the pve quest 

i was asking in the past to gw maker to put more cg ,lol most player dont listen to it they press the skip button 

so this isnt the way i guess or if its cg people want to interact 

but blizzard proved to everybody that graphic isnt the only thing 

when it got out it wasnt the coolest looking still isnt lotr is better looking and they dont fly as high as wow

so mood in the game is important 

you playing an horror mmo you want to feel in a horror mmo 

you in a space mmo you want to feel it  

most game you hear the sound and your like wtf did my college brother do the sound effect and music it sound like my old commodore 64,or atary 2600

thats one of the main thing in wow

you got in org dam you feel its org trought mood ,the music the drum same for stormwind or anyplace you go

its not new ,yes blizzard polished a bit but it was there from start 

blizzard problem isnt that the game is just getting old

but i wouldnt be surprised to see them add pvp quest everywhere in that big game 

i would probably reroll just for that 

insane,not really people like questing but not vs mindless opponent 

if it was pvp quest even just 2 days a week it make a lame game become a fun game because you can interact with you opponent tease him etc try to tease any pve for fun ,go say on a quest to steal say weapon ,lol npc couldnt care less 

now go steal a weapon from even just a lvl 1 foe ,you never saw so many people on your tail in your life 

that what people want they want to feel the game ,be alive when they play the half hour they re alowd to play

why do you think wsg is popular you get to interact with other 

if it was pvp quest it would be the same insane fun ,lol not for the reward 

most go to bg fully b.i.s geared lol

no they go because its one of the few place they fell alive

arena they dont feel alive 

just check total player 

but bg hell yes 

so that why i think pvp questing would be insanelly fun and 1 more thing to work it has to be random pvp quest if its linear like 

pve it wont work guide would kill a pvp quest system ,only with random pvp questing can we hope to achieve probably most of the gamer desire

Originally posted by donaldduck

Originally posted by nariusseldon 

3-4 months is a LONG time for a game. Plus you can always grind for gear that last AFTER your leveling.

 

 

3-4 months to get to end game in an MMO should be considered VERY quick. The whole point of these games is to 'live' and grow in a world over many months and even years. It should take a casual person playing 3-4 hours a week many months to get to max level.

Obviously there should be enough quality content to fill this time, but I agree with the OP when I say I would love to play an MMO where I just forgot about leveling because it was slow and I was enjoying myself too much to even care about numbers.

I don't think that is true anymore. With so many games available, there is really no point of playing one game for years. I like the easy level (and prob most of the market) better because it allows me to spend less time in one game and can sample more.

Even with that, WOW is a huge time sink and prevents me from playing more of other games.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by donaldduck

Originally posted by nariusseldon 

3-4 months is a LONG time for a game. Plus you can always grind for gear that last AFTER your leveling.

 

 

3-4 months to get to end game in an MMO should be considered VERY quick. The whole point of these games is to 'live' and grow in a world over many months and even years. It should take a casual person playing 3-4 hours a week many months to get to max level.

Obviously there should be enough quality content to fill this time, but I agree with the OP when I say I would love to play an MMO where I just forgot about leveling because it was slow and I was enjoying myself too much to even care about numbers.

I don't think that is true anymore. With so many games available, there is really no point of playing one game for years. I like the easy level (and prob most of the market) better because it allows me to spend less time in one game and can sample more.

Even with that, WOW is a huge time sink and prevents me from playing more of other games.

 

There's no point for you. There is one for many gamers who'd like to find a good game and settle down in it. Ironically, that is proven by WoW. Companies keep trying to imitate what Blizzard has done and coming up short. Those players then just go back to WoW.

Most of the market has no choice but to hop games and most times they end up right back at the game they came from if it isn't too outdated.

Originally posted by girlgeek

Originally posted by Rekuja

Leveling is the worst part of any MMORPG... geez why on earth would you want leveling to be slower than it already is? there's no "skill" involved hitting max level, shit, any unemployed bum living with his parents could hit max level easily... but for those of us with social lives and you know.. jobs? it takes a while..

 

To add to this, and I do agree with it, in part.....there's also the matter of the myriads of people that totally blow by the content.  They scream for content, but their definition of "content," is what is at question. 

For instance, how many of you ever even bother to READ quests?  Do you know the game lore of whatever MMO you're playing?  Do you care?  Do you follow the unfolding of the STORY throughout a game?  Do you ever stop to wonder just who that NPC is that you just spoke to and what their "motives" are in the situation?  Do you gather with guildmates for "parties," plans of attack on opposing factions?  Do you roleplay (no, I don't mean in the MAJOR sense of what's done on pure RP type servers, but just playing around)?  Do you, while questing, ever go wandering off to explore some area you see far away that looks interesting?

I would guess most people would answer no to MOST of that.  Why?  Because everyone is so fracking hell-fired up to just GRIND quests and mobs to reach the "ultimate goal" of max level.  Why?  Why is that?  When did people start expecting MMORPGs to play like FPS games?  I don't get that at all.

If you don't like stories, questing, and having your own imaginary role in the unfolding of said stories....why are you playing an MMORPG?  Why not play...oh, I don't know....an online FPS?  No worries with quests, levels, stories, etc. Plus, you can still work on upgrading your gear (since that seems pretty important) and focus on just whoopin' ass without having to be bothered with READING and following stories or anything "lame" like that.  If players would just slow down and enjoy the JOURNEY and actually play the content that is IN most of these games.....you wouldn't level QUITE so damn fast.

I'm just sayin'..........

 

 

Wow, I couldn't have said it any better!  Most MMO I have played I always take my time to lvl to cap, you know pace myself.  So that about the time I lvl the next expansion is coming out. I play with a solid group of guys and he ones that play "a lot" always complain about being bored;  Well what do you expect?  If you eat pizza every day how long does it take til your sick of it and want someting else?  Its the same thing with those that rush to end game and spend hour after hour "grinding" raids for "uber" gear.  They get bored with it, leave the game, then post on the forums how crappy the game is, blah blah blah. 

So does anyone want a slice pf pizza?

Originally posted by ilydamdris

Well no..it's really not all that obvious. I can't see anywhere where he made an attempt to tell others how to play their mmo's. Or anyone who doesn't like fast leveling, telling anyone else how to play their mmo's. Lotro, WoW, War, Eq2, etc. all level pretty quickly compared to games like L2, FF11, EQ launch. They just simply remember the days when levels were something to get REALLY excited for, and today's mmo's seem to not have that feeling quite so much. I don't believe anyone here was trying to tell you how to play whatever mmo you're enjoying.

Yeah, I've noticed people get very touchy about that subject. Suggest that you're personally not satisfied with some aspect of a genre, and some people think you're trying to ram your preferences down their throat..
 

Person A: "I'm really not happy with how fast leveling has become in MMOs. I wish there were some that were slower"
Person B: "Who are you to tell anyone else how they're supposed to play?!"
Person A: "Umm... I'm not?"

I get that reaction a lot, too... as though the very mentioning of it is going to somehow bring their worlds crashing down.

Anyway...

I agree with the OP... More and more MMOs have become about the "destination" rather than the "journey". It's about "what happens at the end" rather than "what happens on the way there".

Thing is, all you need to do to see why MMOs have progressively become faster, more shallow and less interesting races to the endgame is go back through message forums for the past several years now. Read the myriad posts of players new to the genre complaining that "leveling takes too long" and that "the end game is where the real gameplay is and they should be able to get to it faster".

A "win condition" has been imposed on a genre that, by design, doesn't have one. There is no finish line in a MMO, because there is no finish. It's an on-going adventure, not a one month race to the end so you can cancel and move on to the next one... wash, rinse, repeat. At least that's how they were conceived.

And for a while, throughout the first and second generations of MMOs, that's mostly how the people played them - and many are still playing them to this day with no intention of leaving 'til the servers go offline.

Since then, the genre has seen an influx of players weened on games with finite content and defined endings. The goal is to win the game as fast as possible and then move on to the next one. And so that's how they're approaching MMOs.

Low and Mid level content has been neutered and reduced... Why? Because more and more players have damned it as "useless filler" on the way to "end game".

Leveling has become faster and less of an accomplishment... Why? Because more and more players have deemed it a "useless grind to get more money out of the players because all that matters is the end game".

Epic raids have been downsized and the rewards made easier to get... Why? Because more and more players insisted that they deserved to earn the same gear by playing solo that a full group of 50+ people taking down an epic boss would get"

In general.. It's been because more and more players have brought their "me me me, now now now" attitudes to the genre, demanding that everything be made easier and faster and better with less time and effort required.

And... of course, companies doing what they do, followed that trend and started giving players what they wanted... Massively Multiplayer races to end-game that they could race through, get to end-game, raid non-stop until they get bored.

Why make quests any more interesting than "kill and collect" fests when most players can't be bothered to read through the quest dialog or follow the story arc anyway? All they care about is clicking the buttons as fast as they can to finish the quest and reap the rewards so they can move on to the next one.

Why should designers bother putting all that time and effort into crafting an interesting storyline or more interesting quest requirements when people simply use online guides to get through them anyway? That time could be used to create another 4 or 5 kill and collect quests.

Why waste resources on trying to make the journey to the end-game more interesting when no one cares about anything *but* the end-game and how quickly they can get there, ignoring or avoiding as much as they can along the way?

Why give NPCs an interesting or detailed background when most players see them as nothing but Quest Dispensers and couldn't care less who they are or what their role is in the world.

And the examples go on and on.

The sense of adventure has been squashed in favor of ever-easier progress and shinier rewards. The sense of an epic on-going experience is gone, replaced by the need to do almost everything alone and get to the end as fast as possible.

Players now are reaping what they've sown. They're getting exactly what they've asked for for the past several years... A fast-paced MMO where they can race to end-game as fast as possible with as few detours as possible. And that's pretty much what they're getting.

Yet, now I'm seeing more and more complaining about how MMOs are becoming boring and derivative and unimaginative.

So, the question - rhetorical though it be - is, why are they complaining? They've gotten exactly what they've demanded over the past several years... a soul-less, shallow, fast-as-possible level grind to the endgame and all the uber gear.

Originally posted by DukeTyrion

I am struggling to enjoy MMOs at the moment, and I think the reason is, the levels fly past too quickly. You might argue this allows me to get to the end game quicker, but do I really want to get there quicker.

I think part of the reason that I am for the end game, is that I know the items I am collecting and using along the way are only temporary, so the items I collect in the end game will at least last. But when I used to play DAoC and even EQ2 on first release, it seemed that levels were so few and far between that a new axe at level 32 would serve me well for weeks in real terms. Added to that a new axe at 32 was perhaps not upgradable until level 35 or later, so it was a delight to collect it.

Perhaps that is also the issue, not only are the levels flying by so quickly that a level 32 axe in WoW or such might only last me a day, but there are axes for every level, 33, 34, 35, 36 ... the non-end game items no longer have any meaning, because you know the replacement is just around the corner.

So, is there an MMO out there, where the levelling is slower and where an upgrade really means something to your character?

Perhaps I am searching for something that does not exist, or even need a break from MMOs, but at the moment re-painting the outside of the house even seems like a more interesting adventure.

I agree. We don't need 80 levels or more, 20 is enough if it takes the same time to reach them.

I am in favor of games without levels too. But there is really no point in so many levels. I guess the point with 40 or 60 levels originally was that noobs should slowly learn to use the skills. And then EQ started adding more levels with the expansion making people run thru them to reach the endgame.

But 20 or even 5 levels work as good. The idea of levels is to simulate experience and to make it easier to find mobs that are an even match for you. A few levels do that as well as many.

But there a few current MMOs that thinks like this, DDO and Guildwars are the only ones I can think of right now.

If I could choose a level based pen and paper RPG that should be turned into an MMO with the system intact I would choose RIFTS/Palladium. 20 levels that matters but the items in themselves are not levelbased even though you often needs a certain level to get the skills to use the stuff. It takes a long time to reach max level, characters could be customized but are still well balanced and fun to play. Magic classes are the ones that really flowers as they raise in levels but other classes gets a lot better too. All this while keeping the game fun.

There is actually talk about a RIFTS MMO, I hope it happens and withou 60 or 80 levels :D

In WoW the grind was for the next level and the next bit of cash to buy that 1% better weapon for your next level. Past level 20 or so the gameplay was static, offering very little besides spam skill x, auto attack, and don't do something stupid. Nothing mattered because the levels came too quickly. for example 1-2 runs in WC and you moved on to the next dungeon....and new gear.

In FFXI there was an interesting party dynamic that made playing in a party fun. Depending on your class there are important things that needed to happen for a smooth party. as a Tank you needed to have your Defense/Mitigation to a certain level to take on mobs or you would face endless dirt naps. Much the same as WoW. The difference is in FFXI you needed to participate in Skillchains, anticipate when party members would draw Hate based on what skill rotations they were using, as well as watch out for Well geared toons cause they can be tough to keep from getting hate. When a lucky crit can 1 shot your Whm/Blm/Rdm you need to be very good at your job, and very well geared. 

The point I'm trying to make is whatever your class in FFXI it isn't just a grind. you are a Cog in a wheel whenever you get a group and people depend on you for their game experience. There are some mobs that a Rdm is practically essential to have a decent party. as well as Skillchain affinity's that are needed to bring down some mobs fast enough to be worthwile. The combat system is deep enough to keep semi intelligent people entertained for hours. As a Thf I loved playing with other thief's and cooperating to put a ton of hate on the tank so the other 2 damage dealers could go all out and we all got some nice XP. As a Mithra Pld I loved the challenge of being a high dex tank.

Just because a lot of you don't get the enjoyment out of a long leveling cycle dosen't mean it should change. What it means is it isn't the game for U. Don't go on the forums and ask for more solo content. just awitch games, we'll all be happier.

as for nothing else to do in FFXI besides grinding a zone......rofl. there is Fishing, material gathering for crafting, Cooking, Class quests. Camping a NM while waiting for a pty. Making money so you can be all +1 and WTF shit up in quifm. There are plenty of things to do besides wait for hours. And they are almost all worth doing.

What's the point in making a game world just to have players rush through then complain about endgame. I wan't the MMO to be an Experience from beginning to end, not just a rush to endgame.

When I pass by a Monk with a Black Belt I /w him Congrats,  Because they are a royal pain in the ass to get. I wan't that sense of accomplishment when I get a nice piece of gear, I wan't that piece of gear to be relevant for longer than 1 dungeon/zone.

My game isn't casual, and isn't compatible with a casual playstyle. I don't troll forums and complain that their game sux because everything inbetween level 1 and whatever is worthless and that it happens too quickly. there is no aplrnge tree, it's either an apple or an orange. having 2 different playstyles in the same game just leads to one of them being detested and mostly unused. like WoW and PVP rewards killing off people farming dungeons for drops.

WoW took the easy way out and made leveling too easy. many times I have wanted to shut my leveling off so I could run a dungeon some more for drops......but that would be pointless because I could just be running a different dungeon for better drops. the leveling in WoW is too fast to enjoy, or their combat system is too shallow to allow slower leveling without looking like a F2P asian grinder, so they emphasize endgame as the holy grail with all it's 10 man......25 man......40 man raids that any sane person would hate after the 20th time doing it without getting their drop.

I'd rather have a very interesting combat system with zone grind than a shallow system with instance grind.

Originally posted by grndzro

In WoW the grind was for the next level and the next bit of cash to buy that 1% better weapon for your next level. Past level 20 or so the gameplay was static, offering very little besides spam skill x, auto attack, and don't do something stupid. Nothing mattered because the levels came too quickly. for example 1-2 runs in WC and you moved on to the next dungeon....and new gear.

In FFXI there was an interesting party dynamic that made playing in a party fun. Depending on your class there are important things that needed to happen for a smooth party. as a Tank you needed to have your Defense/Mitigation to a certain level to take on mobs or you would face endless dirt naps. Much the same as WoW. The difference is in FFXI you needed to participate in Skillchains, anticipate when party members would draw Hate based on what skill rotations they were using, as well as watch out for Well geared toons cause they can be tough to keep from getting hate. When a lucky crit can 1 shot your Whm/Blm/Rdm you need to be very good at your job, and very well geared. 

The point I'm trying to make is whatever your class in FFXI it isn't just a grind. you are a Cog in a wheel whenever you get a group and people depend on you for their game experience. There are some mobs that a Rdm is practically essential to have a decent party. as well as Skillchain affinity's that are needed to bring down some mobs fast enough to be worthwile. The combat system is deep enough to keep semi intelligent people entertained for hours. As a Thf I loved playing with other thief's and cooperating to put a ton of hate on the tank so the other 2 damage dealers could go all out and we all got some nice XP. As a Mithra Pld I loved the challenge of being a high dex tank.

Just because a lot of you don't get the enjoyment out of a long leveling cycle dosen't mean it should change. What it means is it isn't the game for U. Don't go on the forums and ask for more solo content. just awitch games, we'll all be happier.

as for nothing else to do in FFXI besides grinding a zone......rofl. there is Fishing, material gathering for crafting, Cooking, Class quests. Camping a NM while waiting for a pty. Making money so you can be all +1 and WTF shit up in quifm. There are plenty of things to do besides wait for hours. And they are almost all worth doing.

What's the point in making a game world just to have players rush through then complain about endgame. I wan't the MMO to be an Experience from beginning to end, not just a rush to endgame.

When I pass by a Monk with a Black Belt I /w him Congrats,  Because they are a royal pain in the ass to get. I wan't that sense of accomplishment when I get a nice piece of gear, I wan't that piece of gear to be relevant for longer than 1 dungeon/zone.

My game isn't casual, and isn't compatible with a casual playstyle. I don't troll forums and complain that their game sux because everything inbetween level 1 and whatever is worthless and that it happens too quickly. there is no aplrnge tree, it's either an apple or an orange. having 2 different playstyles in the same game just leads to one of them being detested and mostly unused. like WoW and PVP rewards killing off people farming dungeons for drops.

WoW took the easy way out and made leveling too easy. many times I have wanted to shut my leveling off so I could run a dungeon some more for drops......but that would be pointless because I could just be running a different dungeon for better drops. the leveling in WoW is too fast to enjoy, or their combat system is too shallow to allow slower leveling without looking like a F2P asian grinder, so they emphasize endgame as the holy grail with all it's 10 man......25 man......40 man raids that any sane person would hate after the 20th time doing it without getting their drop.

I'd rather have a very interesting combat system with zone grind than a shallow system with instance grind.

All of this I disagree with. Therefore it's not fact, it's only your opinion. FFXI was as boring to me as a grinder as was WoW after the third time through.

But I did stay with WoW -longer- than FFXI because at least there I didn't have to wait around to group with a bunch of people that would pitch a fit if the group didn't stay together 3+ hours or if they happened to die. No thanks - FFXI ruined me to PUG'ing forever.

On another note: You can farm in any MMO. You can craft in any MMO. HECK you can FISH in most of them. You can go hunt rare monsters in a good many of them. So no, FFXI is not unique in that aspect either, and the way they implimented it was more tedious than the usual farming grind.

There is no imagination in the MMO genre anymore. None. They all rely on the same exact formula. The genre has gone stale.

If you disagree with all of that I don't know what to say except I hope you really enjoy WoW.

I think the most important thing developers need to do is make leveling so fun, that it doesn't even matter.  At this point, whether it's a slow grind, or a fast one, it's just too repetative.  It's also annoying to wait up/catch up with your friends.  Levels shouldn't affect whether you can play with your friends.  Sorry, but I don't find power leveling my friends fun.  I like how WAR gives you the choice to level through pvp or pve.  This is a step in the right direction, but I think we should never feel a real amount of grind. 

Personal opinion; levelling is an extended tutorial that is (or should be) designed to gradually introduce the player to the complexities of his/her chosen class and like all tutorials, concise is better imo.

I won't play a game where I have to purposelessly grind mobs for experience; levels should come smoothly as a result of ones accomplishments and achievements in the game, not as an artificial experience value that trumps everything else.

The focus of the player should be on experiencing and mastering the content rather than simply achieving that next level.

I would have to agree with the OP in this instance.  I know people hated the "grind" of EQ1, but for me it was never a "grind."  If I ever tired of a certain dungeon or group of mobs, I moved on to a new and more interesting location.  I never felt a need to level up according to some artificial time table, and if I decided what I was doing wasn't fun I would find something else to do.

Modern MMOs, whether through intentional design or not, tend to have a rush to end-game aspect that didn't really exist before (for me anyway).  I always enjoyed the journey and didn't stress out about the destination.  Maybe I was a minority back then without realizing it, but today there's no question that end-game is the only goal of nearly every gamer out there.  Earning experience and leveling on the way to max level is nothing more than a chore to most and an unacceptable "grind" to many.  As a result, I have had trouble finding an MMO that provides me with the "journey > destination" feeling I've been craving for a long time.

Just to be clear, I don't begrudge anyone who would prefer being max level with as little time in-game as possible.  If end-game is what you enjoy, then more power to you.  However, I would really like to see a few quality games come out with the casual leveler and "journey > destination" crowd in mind.  Vanguard sounded great on paper, but severely lacked the quality criteria that is an absolute must for me these days.  While I appreciate people offering a list of games that offer a longer leveling experience, most of the games people have suggested in this thread miss out entirely on the leveling enjoyment aspect.  Of course, the OP's gripe was leveling speed, so I guess the suggestions were appropriate.

Anyway, enough rambling.  Interesting thread everyone

No! Leveling sucks period....what developers need to focus more on now is end game....=/

Originally posted by Jackio81

No! Leveling sucks period....what developers need to focus more on now is end game....=/

Define "end game" because if you mean more gear grinding and raids, I'll pass. 

Originally posted by Kordesh

Originally posted by Jackio81

No! Leveling sucks period....what developers need to focus more on now is end game....=/

Define "end game" because if you mean more gear grinding and raids, I'll pass. 

Meaning quality of end game...because right now from what I've seen in most MMOs it sucks....for instance the example you brought up with grinding for gear>>>>sucks!

Originally posted by Jackio81

Originally posted by Kordesh

Originally posted by Jackio81

No! Leveling sucks period....what developers need to focus more on now is end game....=/

Define "end game" because if you mean more gear grinding and raids, I'll pass. 

Meaning quality of end game...because right now from what I've seen in most MMOs it sucks....for instance the example you brought up with grinding for gear>>>>sucks!

I agree with you, there is no quality in the endgame, almost without exception any  character I have that hits max level gets retired because I have no interest in gear grinding or PvP and very little in raiding.  At best, I keep most of those characters sitting around to help out org mates, to run as pocket bosses, for chatting with others, etc.  Otherwise, there's little point in getting them to that point when the endgame is such a pointless, worthless thing.  Getting there is the fun, once you're there, who cares?

If you dont like levels and dont like gear why the fuck are you playing a RPG? Go play CSS and you can do away with all that nonsense you hate.

To all those who want levelling to be over with as soon as possible, what's the point in having levels in the first place? I mean, wouldn't you be happier if developers just disgarded levelling altogether and tossed you right into the "end-game" after a short tutorial the first time? That way you wouldn't waste time on levelling, gathering temporary gear and spending time in the 95% of the game that is just filler because it's for low levels (any level but max level). After all, any character progression that happens before you're done with levelling is irrelevant?

It's my impression from my short time in WoW that this is what most players want. GuildWars tried it, but with a pvp focus, but I'm sure Blizzard could pull it off with a PvE centric game.

I would not play it, because I get bored with PvE in any game once xp stops ticking in when I kill something. It's not that I enjoy grinding, but as long as going out into the world randomly killing something while exploring yields a slight  progression towards the next level, I don't feel my time has been wasted. If I reach max level, I usually just start over, or find another game. Of course that can be done in any game by intentionally slowing down the pace. That's not the point. In most games with fast levelling, all areas before max level are designed to just be passed through briefly. If you take it slow your will see, and experience exactly the same as someone rushing through, except slower.

Levelling slow in a game where fast levelling is the norm by design is like watching a movie in slow motion. That's pointless, and no fun. I want it to be slow because it's like a really long, and complex series of books that I can go through at my own pace. Checking out external references at times and reading favorite passages over again. If someone else wants to jump straight to the last page of the last book and read it over and over until they get bored, that's fine by me, but they would probably be better off watching the movie.

Originally posted by protoroc

If you dont like levels and dont like gear why the fuck are you playing a RPG? Go play CSS and you can do away with all that nonsense you hate.

I don't remember UO having levels, or being gear based.  I don''t remember SW:G having levels, or being gear based. I don't remember the original NWN ..

pfftt

Perhaps you're not the definitive voice of RPGs...

Originally posted by protoroc

If you dont like levels and dont like gear why the fuck are you playing a RPG? Go play CSS and you can do away with all that nonsense you hate.

WORD.