Hardcore MMO's are Dead.

Why?

And of corse this is just theory. And I am a core player.

We can't blame WoW. I think WoW is a shitty MMO, but besides the point, let's face it... It did well.

WoW brought casual gamers to MMO's. Being that there are many more casual players then MMO players, WoW boomed.

The MMO industry is a buisness. And like any buisness, you follow the money.

That is why you no longer see Core MMOs, just, simple-hold your hand casual 'MMOs'

Sucess of WoW changed the genre. Like making FPS into Puzzle games.

And because there are many more Casual players, developers will cater to their needs.

It sucks for all the Core players, I know. Only if money didn't matter right? Then we could have both.

After waiting so long for the FFXIV reveal, I see SE is making things easier for casual players.

My Last Hope. Gone.

MMO = Massively Multiplayer Online

You play together, not solo.

I dunno.  Lots of old games are not only still around, but doing better than ever.

CCP recently claimed in an interview they're the #2 MMO in NA now.  EvE is about as hardcore as it gets, so I can't see the market going away anytime soon.

From what I've heard, FFXI recently hit a new peak as well, and it's a very solo-unfriendly game.  And the reviews I've seen on Darkfall from core gamers have for the most part been very positive, I think it has a real shot at growing into the next big sandbox game.

People just need to understand that an MMO that's pitched strongly at a specific segment of the MMO market will only do well in that particular segment.  You won't any of the games I just mentioned grow to WoW-levels because they're not aimed at the mass market, and value slow growth and high vet retention rates over masses of high-turnover casuals.

WoW and the Blizzard Hype Machine have caused people to put way too much stock in sub numbers.  Try a game for yourself - if you like it that's all that matters.

Troll post.

most people who claim to be "hardcore" dont even know what they want >.>

Why is everything It's dead, it's fail, it sucks? I mean wouldn't it go further towards making your point to say they haven't made any hardcore MMOs lately? Could anyone really argue with that?

Originally posted by malidar

Hardcore MMO's are Dead.

Why?

 

And of corse this is just theory. And I am a core player.

 

We can't blame WoW. I think WoW is a shitty MMO, but besides the point, let's face it... It did well.

WoW brought casual gamers to MMO's. Being that there are many more casual players then MMO players, WoW boomed.

 

The MMO industry is a buisness. And like any buisness, you follow the money.

That is why you no longer see Core MMOs, just, simple-hold your hand casual 'MMOs'

 

Sucess of WoW changed the genre. Like making FPS into Puzzle games.

And because there are many more Casual players, developers will cater to their needs.

 

It sucks for all the Core players, I know. Only if money didn't matter right? Then we could have both.

 

After waiting so long for the FFXIV reveal, I see SE is making things easier for casual players.

 

My Last Hope. Gone.

 

MMO = Massively Multiplayer Online

You play together, not solo.

 

So all you casual players, go back to your single player games and leave our MMOs alone. Please.

 

So casual players should line up and pay homage to you, and your HARD CORE players.  HARD CORE players are bigger than humans, they are the gods of human beings.

Hmm being so hard core, why do you need to post a moan here.  Is that an additional dimension of being hard core?

And it couldn't POSSIBLY be because all those "hardcore" people from 10 years ago are now older, have full time jobs and families and other important things to do rather than dedicate 8 hours a day or more to a bunch of pixelated loot, right?

The player base is changing. They'd be stupid not to adjust their games accordingly.

I will agree the MMO genre is a bit stale atm with all of them having the same "flavor" but saying that only "core" players deserve to play is pretty ...well. Stupid.

Hey OP..

EVE Online

Darkfall (yes, it sucks)

Mortal Online (Coming soon)

That's 3 for ya

Originally posted by KaitarBesh

And it couldn't POSSIBLY be because all those "hardcore" people from 10 years ago are now older, have full time jobs and families and other important things to do rather than dedicate 8 hours a day or more to a bunch of pixelated loot, right?

 

The player base is changing. They'd be stupid not to adjust their games accordingly.

 

I will agree the MMO genre is a bit stale atm with all of them having the same "flavor" but saying that only "core" players deserve to play is pretty ...well. Stupid.

The OP is not talking about changes.  He is trying to say he is CORE, the others are casual.  Which implies he is special.  Just special.  Being stupid is also special, you know.

Originally posted by KaitarBesh

And it couldn't POSSIBLY be because all those "hardcore" people from 10 years ago are now older, have full time jobs and families and other important things to do rather than dedicate 8 hours a day or more to a bunch of pixelated loot, right?

Oh, but that's too obvious. Didn't you know that the problem with MMO's is that casual players have entered the market? It has nothing to do with the initial playerbases of games like EQ1 and UO getting older and having real lives and careers instead of spending all day grinding in a game, or consumers becoming more savvy about where they spend their money and time.

Nope. Clearly it's all the fault of the casual gamer.

Core/Hardcore is a stupid word.

And I only use it to seperate causal (I want you to hold my hand and I want to solo) players from the old school players who like a challenge.

I have a job, no kids, and I like playing with people online, is that a crime? I just dont like the fact that the world works in a certian way. Around Money.

It sucks, cant change it.

Let me see if i understand this. You want people to play mmorpgs but only if they are ok with hardcore grinding and you don't want people to play mmorpgs if they are not ok with hardcore grinding. Hmmm

Yeah it does say Mass Multiplayer online but it doesn't say Mass Co-op Multiplayer Online.

I get it. I just pissed off every Eq nerd in the house. The fact is this. People enjoy other peoples company just not all the time and same can be said in any mmorpg. Wow did themselves justice by opening up raiding content to every class spec with wrath however i have to agree with you. Wow overall is probably one of the worst mmorpgs out there and for different reasons.

Wow has to be the single most imbalanced game the internetz has ever seen. That alone makes it bad.

Let's not just make this all about wow. It's about grinding for hours on hours. Something i might add i do enjoy and kind of pissed off when wow moved away from that kind of environment . I use to be able to hang with a buddy and just sit there and grind on mobs till a pattern dropped.

It also comes down to time vs reward. Another aspect Blizzard walked away from for the most part. Now it's not about time you put in it's about how op your class is.

Times like these i jump on swg or knight online to remember the simple reason why Blizzard did what they did.

Get 10000000 credits for only $4.99 usd. Very fast and cheap. under 24 hours. Not to mention the amount of lag you get from all the bots and the steady flow of text spamming your box with crap you are not trying to read while catching what your party member is trying to say.

If ez mode means less farmers to allow for me to enjoy the mmorpg that i am playing then i don't care anymore about being hardcore. It's worthless and meaningless in the end when it interfers with my enjoyment of the game.

Riiiight because "casual" players - aka people who don't play 8+ hours a day by my definition - dislike challenge, don't they?

That's why half of the "casuals" I know (including myself) are begging for challenging solo and duo dungeons. One of the most fun experiences I've had is duoing dungeons with my husband when they're supposed to be 4-5 manned. But you know, casuals....we like our hands held.

Blanket statement 4TL. This thread is yet another pointless "lawl I'm hardcore therefore my old school way that's no longer a viable reality for the gaming market is better than other people's lol".

Originally posted by malidar

Hardcore MMO's are Dead.

Why?

 

And of corse this is just theory. And I am a core player.

 

We can't blame WoW. I think WoW is a shitty MMO, but besides the point, let's face it... It did well.

WoW brought casual gamers to MMO's. Being that there are many more casual players then MMO players, WoW boomed.

 

The MMO industry is a buisness. And like any buisness, you follow the money.

That is why you no longer see Core MMOs, just, simple-hold your hand casual 'MMOs'

 

Sucess of WoW changed the genre. Like making FPS into Puzzle games.

And because there are many more Casual players, developers will cater to their needs.

 

It sucks for all the Core players, I know. Only if money didn't matter right? Then we could have both.

 

After waiting so long for the FFXIV reveal, I see SE is making things easier for casual players.

 

My Last Hope. Gone.

 

MMO = Massively Multiplayer Online

You play together, not solo.

 

So all you casual players, go back to your single player games and leave our MMOs alone. Please.

 

Go cry somewhere else. 

I just love how all of these "hardcore" players each have their own definition of what "hardcore" is.  According to this specimen, it's all about grouping up.  Kinda reminds me of sissy gang bangers that just can't cut it on their own, they have to be backed up.

<--------- nuff said

edit: lol didnt place it right :P

Harcdore = Wasting hours to experience some gameplay, timesinks and unneccesary roadblocks, addictive elements to stimulate compulsive gaming.....

Yes, that's partly dying, but new games like Aion and WoW prove it's not dead yet, it should die.

THANK GOD that some are realising that timesinks aren't content.

Hardcore = Difficult content, relying on others, social interaction to progress.

That's not dead, many games are just more casual right now, but it doesn't mean games can't be difficult. You just have few choices right now, true.

Originally posted by malidar

MMO = Massively Multiplayer Online

You play together, not solo.

 

So all you casual players, go back to your single player games and leave our MMOs alone. Please.

 

you don't really know what that means do you?

It means you play along side many people. You play in a world with many people. Should you decide you want to play "with" them that is also an option.

Originally posted by KaitarBesh

Riiiight because "casual" players - aka people who don't play 8+ hours a day by my definition - dislike challenge, don't they?

 

That's why half of the "casuals" I know (including myself) are begging for challenging solo and duo dungeons. One of the most fun experiences I've had is duoing dungeons with my husband when they're supposed to be 4-5 manned. But you know, casuals....we like our hands held.

 

Blanket statement 4TL. This thread is yet another pointless "lawl I'm hardcore therefore my old school way that's no longer a viable reality for the gaming market is better than other people's lol".

to be honest..... ehh never mind, i keep getting reported for being "mean" to people lol

who cares about dungeons, go kill people

Originally posted by Lidane

Originally posted by KaitarBesh

And it couldn't POSSIBLY be because all those "hardcore" people from 10 years ago are now older, have full time jobs and families and other important things to do rather than dedicate 8 hours a day or more to a bunch of pixelated loot, right?

Oh, but that's too obvious. Didn't you know that the problem with MMO's is that casual players have entered the market? It has nothing to do with the initial playerbases of games like EQ1 and UO getting older and having real lives and careers instead of spending all day grinding in a game, or consumers becoming more savvy about where they spend their money and time.

Nope. Clearly it's all the fault of the casual gamer.

Actually we older players have turned casual , there's nothing worth spending hours  online playing anymore now that I have the time.  

 And hardcore my but. hardcore was spending hours trying to figure out tapers for a new spell, trying to get  to another village, trying to get your body.  copying code out of the back of a book to get a game to work. moving memory blocks around in dos to get a game to run.  wishing you had  one of the new fast 56k modems.  Perhaps one of the casual players that was on dark tide  back in the day can explain it to you so called hardcore players.

Hardcore, when talking about EQ, used to mean "You have a lot of time".

It never meant "You're awesome at this game".

The same applies to WoW, have a lot of time, grind a lot, figure out raids get in the right guild and you too can be uber just like every other kid in the block. MMO have never been about skill, it has always....always....been directly linked to the amount of time you had to spend in the game.

I had some of the best gear in EQ for a few years..because I had time..then I realised that I wanted to invest my free time in school, learn about the outside world, read.....my gear didn't improve anymore even though my skill stayed the same....I realised that time was directly related to my progression, I quit..and I never pretended to be hardcore, I just had time.

I consider myself a Modern Core gamer..

In that I mean I like games that challenge players and PROMOTE grouping over solo play. Dont get me wrong that doesnt meant I dont think their should be some solo based content.

However I like some some of the new elements that have  also come with more current MMOs that alot of  Hardcore gamers seem to hate.

For Example I will use the Game Vanguard Saga of Heroes. Personally I thought this game was great while I was playing it. When the game first came out though it took FOREVER to get anywhere. Then they added the Riftway system when they did alot of the Hardcore player base whined and cried talking about the devs putting the game in easy mode by allowing a faster mode of travel and taking away from the immersiveness and reasons to have items such as mounts and ships.

However I personally loved the riftway system. Now I liked it a little better when a player would have to acttually attune his character to a rift shard to be able to access it as that seemed to promote the exploration of the world which is something I think should be encouraged. With changes that were made later to the r'iftway system you could just use any of them by paying the appropriate charge... I thought it was better when the game promoted immersion by exploration to use said riftway for easier travel. but thats just me.

Now when it comes to challenge I like it when games attempt to cater to multiple crowds to a degree though.  I think i am a risk vs reward type of player. Meaning that solo players while they might be able to level up their characters at close to the same rate as groupers. However the better items in game should come from more challenging areas or quests. that require groups to attain.

Now I will say that a long quest might give a good reward then. I liked the way EQ1 did the Epic quests of old. A large part of the quest you would or could work on by yourself but as you went futher you would start to need friends to help you finish it. It was a great system one that made you feel like you actually accomplished something when you finished the quest and recieved your Epic.

Well I have ranted long enough..

I will end in saying. As an old timer gamer (coming from EQ1 as my first game) I have to say I love some of the things I am seeing in newer games. However there are some things I miss from the older days as well. But not all of them.. I really enjoyed Vanguard when I played it, even with the bugs it suffered at launch. As it was a throwback in many ways to some of the older days of gaming in EQ1 but still had alot of the nice things that come wtih more modern MMOs.. even though it lacked something i think ALL MMOs should have these days and that is character customization such as a feat system or talent system or mastery system...

Well ok done this time... No really I am.

Originally posted by malidar

Hardcore MMO's are Dead.

Why?

 

And of corse this is just theory. And I am a core player.

 

We can't blame WoW. I think WoW is a shitty MMO, but besides the point, let's face it... It did well.

WoW brought casual gamers to MMO's. Being that there are many more casual players then MMO players, WoW boomed.

 

The MMO industry is a buisness. And like any buisness, you follow the money.

That is why you no longer see Core MMOs, just, simple-hold your hand casual 'MMOs'

 

Sucess of WoW changed the genre. Like making FPS into Puzzle games.

And because there are many more Casual players, developers will cater to their needs.

 

It sucks for all the Core players, I know. Only if money didn't matter right? Then we could have both.

 

After waiting so long for the FFXIV reveal, I see SE is making things easier for casual players.

 

My Last Hope. Gone.

 

MMO = Massively Multiplayer Online

You play together, not solo.

 

So all you casual players, go back to your single player games and leave our MMOs alone. Please.

 

You contradicted yourself claiming hardcore is a type of mmo yet you claim yourself as hardcore. It's not both, first and foremost Hardcore is NOT a type of mmo genre, it is ONLY a style of play. Too many gamers misuse those terms out of pure ignorance. You obviously aren't hardcore to begin with because you can't even get the terminology right.

Originally posted by Orthedos

So casual players should line up and pay homage to you, and your HARD CORE players.  HARD CORE players are bigger than humans, they are the gods of human beings.

Hmm being so hard core, why do you need to post a moan here.  Is that an additional dimension of being hard core?

You are so right, I know a few. They don't bother with mundane stuff like Working, going out or showering. Truly gods among men....

Really OP, there is no hardcore MMOs just Hardcore MMO players. If there are fewer of those around that might be because some actually got lifes besides playing 8 hours or more 7 days a week.

That games are solofriendly doesn't matter, some people soloplay 15 hours a day and I would at least consider them hardcore gamers anyways.

Edit: Dang, Czan got a few seconds before me with this...

I sort of feel the OP's thoughts ,however do not be so quick t odownplay what Square Enix was doing.Sure it appears to be leading towards solo play,but remember FFXI is a very old game and MOST players can now exploit the game in the same fashion,so they saqw no reason to hold back others as well.

With a brand new game,the few things Square added,will not make soloing the reason to play,there game/s will still be a grouping game.Remember players will start in a game with little currency ,no sub job and no clue of surrounding mobs or quests.Square made the content of FFXI extremely tough,if you had no internet or a level 75 to guide you through it,the little additions to FFXI would not translate over to a newer FFXIV unti lthe game is years old as is the case in FFXI.You will in a brand new FFXIV still need a hardcore group to wade through the cotnent,you can bet on it,it is their way of doing things.

You might even expect a tougher grind as Square saw how fast players began to wade through content,and many now are familiar with the way the game is played.Square will not want players to hit max level in one month,then have massive forum crying for new content,they are too smart for that to happen,so expect a "HARDCORE" game once again.Mentoring will never dumb a game down,it is a GOOD mechanic that all games should have.

Originally posted by malidar

Hardcore MMO's are Dead.

Why?

 

And of corse this is just theory. And I am a core player.

 

We can't blame WoW. I think WoW is a shitty MMO, but besides the point, let's face it... It did well.

WoW brought casual gamers to MMO's. Being that there are many more casual players then MMO players, WoW boomed.

 

The MMO industry is a buisness. And like any buisness, you follow the money.

That is why you no longer see Core MMOs, just, simple-hold your hand casual 'MMOs'

 

Sucess of WoW changed the genre. Like making FPS into Puzzle games.

And because there are many more Casual players, developers will cater to their needs.

 

It sucks for all the Core players, I know. Only if money didn't matter right? Then we could have both.

 

After waiting so long for the FFXIV reveal, I see SE is making things easier for casual players.

 

My Last Hope. Gone.

 

MMO = Massively Multiplayer Online

You play together, not solo.

 

So all you casual players, go back to your single player games and leave our MMOs alone. Please.

 

I dunno... I think you are giving up too easily. Asian MMO's have never been for the faint of heart. WoW just made MMO's come to the forefront. But like you said it's true, there will be dumb mmo's and complex ones.  

FFXI has always been hard, and continues to be hard. 1 slip up and everyone ends up dead.  I'm sure they will take everything they learned from FFXI and put it into FFXIV, well their press conference even says so.  Hardcore MMo's i'd say wait for Aion, and FF14, most American MMo's seemed to depart from EQ1 days... Sad cause EQ1 was a freakin hard game, if you didn't have someone to power buff u to hell... 

Sure there will be easy MMO's and there will always be overly hard MMo's just gotta pick your game... You're not gonna like everything...  It's good that people like MMo's cause hey it gives a variety in devs and that just means that one day they might make a game that knocks your socks off... so don't hate, just appreciate... LMAO... GL on your quest to find a good game...