Originally posted by bobfish

 

I dabble, but mainly because I'm still looking for the right MMO, however I'll take a stab at responding to you.

He understands the hardcore bunch perfectly, it is after all the hardcore group of gamers that fuel RMT, these hardcore gamers just don't have the time to commit that their passion and hunger dictates, so they turn to money to make up for it.

Whoah... Back up there a minute. That is an *extremely* presumptuous and unfair over-generalization. 

Being a "hardcore" player has nothing to do with RMT. Casuals buy plenty of in-game gold as well. That they don't have as much time to spend in-game as the more "hardcore" players is a common reason they give. Don't kid yourself. Playstyle and RMT are mutually exclusive - one does exist without the other.

I would consider myself a pretty "hardcore" player in terms of how much time I have played and do play MMOs. I have never once bought in-game money to bypass the effort of acquiring anything I've wanted. Everything I've ever gotten I've acquired within the context of the game; that's the entire point of MMOs in the first place... to *play* them. If something recquired more time or effort than I wanted to spend, then I simply didn't get that item. I didn't feel like I was "entitled to it" anyway.

Acquiring good gear, etc is part of playing the game. People who RMT, basically buying their way through, completely undermine and subvert the point of playing it in the first place, IMO.

That said, I know plenty of other people, and have met plenty of others in my time playing MMOs who feel the same as me on that topic.

So, please, do not go around making generalizations like that. It's not that cut and dry.

That said, I agree completely with the person you quoted... There are a lot of people who, given their time limitations and/or preferences, should maybe not be playing a MMO in the first place... or at least set their expectations more realistically to their circumstances.

If I were a vegetarian, I wouldn't go into a steakhouse and then demand they reduce the amount of meat items and add more meat-free options because the menu doesn't cater enough to what I want. I would go someplace that better suited my personal eating habits.

Still, there are many who do definitely express that attitude; that because they don't have the time or desire to play the game as it was designed, that it should be altered or made easier to accomodate them. I see that attitude more and more and, to me, it's part of the reason MMOs are a mere shadow of what they used to be.

People need to get over themselves, stop thinking like spoiled children, and drop the whole "me me me", "I'm entitled to get everything I want, when and how I want it" crap.

On another note...

Ever wonder why so many people who started out years ago in EQ1, AC1, UO, AO, FFXI and myriad other 1st or 2nd gen MMOs are still playing them to this day with no desire to leave; while more and more post-WoW players find themselves getting bored and looking to the next "shiny new" MMO after a couple months, if that?

In a nutshell, I think players are getting exactly what they've been demanding for the past few years. They've demanded MMOs with faster leveling, more soloable, lower demand on time or effort with greater rewards. They're getting all that, and now they're finding it boring.

By the same token, that same change in attitude and behavior in players is, at least in part, what has led to the discussion of RMT as a legitimate sales model even being considered. Once upon a time, in all those pre-WoW 1st and 2nd generation MMOs, if you bought money/characters/items online and people found out, you were shunned, humiliated and mocked for it. You were no longer a player; you were a cheater. It was frowned upon immensely.

So, I don't think it's mere coincidence that with the introduction of players who want "more and more, faster and easier", buying your way through a MMO via RMT has also turned a corner and is openly discussed as a "legitimate" way to play.

More and more people seem to have lost sight of the idea that MMOs, like EQ1, FFXI, AC1, UO, etc. were conceived to be on-going, lasting adventures, where earning an achievement was as important as the achievement itself. They were not a race to end-game to raid 'til you get sick of it and leave 2 months later.

MMOs are no longer designed as lasting adventures that can last years. They're designed as derivative, disposable diversions that will ideally keep a player at least a month or two.

Originally posted by ericbelser

Originally posted by Khaunshar

Originally posted by bmdevine

What makes you think that there is a "proper" way to play

What is there to laugh about in calling F2P haters a minority when, for example, there are F2P games that have anywhere between 4 to 9 times the user accounts that WoW has subscribers? 

He is not attacking, or trying to enforce, a "proper" way of playing. He is merely stating that among the dozens of different ways to play MMORPGs, a few are not suited at ALL, by design, to the genre without it having to be demolished and rebuilt, then alienating other playstyles.

 When a game designer creates a game, they have clear visions in mind of how long - in terms of gameplay time - it will take to reach the "endgame" and to acquire items. The "proper" way to approach an MMORPG in which it is intended that you spend months, if not years, playing is to expect to spend that amount of time to reach the rarest content. Likewise, in most the expectation is that you will have to make friends and join a guild to access that highest content.

I have no issue with the actual MSOG players as he describes himself, but there are a significant number (and growing) of players in MMORPGs who don't have (or don't wish to spend) the time to reach those accomplishments and to make the guild connections. They are the ones constantly demanding "more solo content" or complaining about how hard and elitist the endgame is. They tend to be the ones who want to RMT their way around the time aspect. If you're not one of them , then you aren't who I was addressing.

On the 2nd part, he isn't posting on some global news service nor was he talking about global opinion. I have NO idea what the global opinion survey numbers are on F2P vs P2P and I doubt he does either.

Assuming that there is a proper way to play based on a perception of developer intent is a bit presumptuous unless perhaps the developer intent is expressly stated, e.g. in an interview.  Even so, most developers understand that not everyone has the same play style or playing habits.  That's one of the reasons why different options, e.g. RMT are built into games nowadays.  Developers want to appeal to a broader cross-section of the population.  If a game is built with these options in the mind from the ground up, it's pretty clear evidence of developer intent.  If they're added in later on, it's also evidence of developer intent.  Unless it's done through third parties and is against licensing agreements, then it's illogical to say that RMT is against the developer's intent and therefore "improper."

As to the changes in the industry, it sounds like you may conflating two issues, which, although they may at times be related, are not necessarily the same.  You're probably just going to have to get used to the idea of RMT.  There are more MMOs with RMT than without at this point.  Even some P2P games have famously been adding it.

The argument about the context of Aihoshi's publication is specious at best.  He's writing about the industry, not about this website. 

His argument:

Because of my job I dabble at playing MMO’s and think this is what you could all be doing as it works for me.

Mine:

Err hello, earth to Mr Aihoshi, we are not MMO pundits, we play these games because we love them, not because it is our job and I gotta catch erm all! Sorry perhaps our ‘love of MMO’s’ is a ‘anti F2P mantra’? I am vocal but I am not a miniority as you suggest. So far I have regarded this mans articles with some regard and interest but he now shows his true colours.

He states that he has never seen one MMO through to end content. And I am supposed to think this guy is a MMO expert? He is a first 15 levels expert at best. But I thank him for his honesty.

My suggetion to you sir, is that you play a MMO, any MMO to its end comment and then you will get an idea of game community and not just regard them as solo games online. For that matter it will through some light on the nature of RMP transations for you. For someone who does not seem to have visited a cash shop he seems rather to ready to tell us RMP are no big deal!

Well, the current tendency among F2P games is that of MSOGs, that is true indeed. That might be good for someone like you, of course, who doesn't really intend to spend much time in a single game, but for those who are looking to settle in a game with a good community this is not good at all.

I don't really enjoy going around every single game just to see what it is like. You hardly get the best of anything that way (even though there is barely anything special to get from most MMOs today). I really enjoy a strong community in a game, you really notice the difference when you play an usual F2P game and a game that has a mainly cooperative environment. People don't treat you as trash, because they expect to make friends there, they won't simply neglect others just because they don't expect to ever see them again. This might not be the case for you, but many people who don't seek any connection with a game tend to be rude to others when playing it.

There is a reason for what so many people play F2Ps this way. They are boring. No one bothers spending too much time in a game that is far from being fun, as you admitted yourself. I could say the same for a good percentage of P2P games, but at least a good portion of them offer diversity and equitativity to some degree, as well as a better tendency for having friendlier communities (people play them usually intend to stay, because they have to pay to play). F2P games have everything required to generate terrible communities, some don't really intend to play the game thus don't really invest much into game friends, others use microtransactions to try to gain superiority over the general free players just to show off and subjugate them, others just solo grind to hell expecting the fun that never comes, because they want to prove to everyone that they can achieve something great.

What is the solution to gaining recognizement and reaching the end-game with little to no efforts? You either buy cash items or cheat. It's not surprising that every single F2P game out there is a botfest and has a botting software designed specifically for itself. This is just a sign that there is something terribly wrong, yet what I've been seeing is some F2P companies attempting to find means to officialize botting instead of fighting the real causes of the problem, of course that what they intend with this is to gain the monopoly over the easier means to reach the endgame, making the option of buying cash items even more attractive.

This is a reprint of a post from here, but I still think it applies. My stance hasn't changed that's why I carried it over.

Woo boy this thread is hot! Big walls of texts, quotes and enough attitude to put Paris Hilton to shame.

I have to agree with OP and comments made along the way. Yes there is some terrible RMT and terrible games in general around the net. My relationship with the unistall button isn't as a stranger. And we have a choice if we will continue to play said game or not. Now on one hand in RMT, I can leave it there indefinately and if for some reason I go back I just have to patch it and WA-LA! I'm back in business. On the other hand, if I decide to not play said p2p game, I'll use LOTRO as an example; I am actually wasting the rest of the monthly subscription my $10 and if I go back I have to PAY for another subscription whether it be 1,3,6 or 12 months. They are expecting some money from me.

F2P already knows that there is a certain amount of people that will not pay a dime to play their game. They use something called the "89/10/1" rule, and to quote John Davison, co-founder of WhatTheyPlay.com, a Web site that helps parents navigate the many game choices for their kids.

This rule, Davison says, assumes that 89 percent of your audience is playing for free, 10 percent is paying for something and 1 percent is spending a lot of money, buying new clothes or convenience items for their avatars. - Courtesy MSNBC.com
And with Free Realms that has already hit the 2 million mark, 1% of 2mil is 20,000 and now your talking real money. RMT or what I call it, Pay As You Go is the new breed of online content that many favor and the P2P is in my eyes a lease payment due at the end of the month. I really never OWN anything, I just rent it for a certain amount of time.

This market is expandiing and getting more competitive, no one is settling for low quality and they don't have to. These companies are under pressure and already have a few points against them, they need to step up or the next expansion of games is going to hurt the bottom line which is money. These games are a business that doesn't run on good looks, charm and personality servers cost money and so does the manpower to keep them running.

I don't think RMT is inevitable, I feel that is going to be an evolution of an already established machine and stand as a separate entiity. It is going to stay, but it will stand apart from a larger part of the industry and will attract different players. We are all as different as the characters we play in these games.
It all comes down to choice.
Play safe,
~Ink

I can't say I disagree with the mindset of the 'hardcore' gamers, most of them play more of their games of choice in a month than I will play games in a year, I think the developers are making a mistake, 'dumbing down' as some have put it of games to appeal to a more mass-market crowd.  While this trend seems inevitable since numbers don't really lie and the more players there are the more money they are making, be it f2p or p2p, I think those that scream down, attack or otherwise hate games for being f2p or for using Rmt's are 'pissing into the wind'.  The change is inevitable at this point, as long as their is money to be made developers will keep putting out more and more f2p's, whether or not they are quality.

But I also have to say if the p2p developers gave the masses a few more options than maybe there would be a few more dedicated players out there in the world.  For my part, there are a lot of subscription games I would want to try, only I don't have or I don't want to pay to do it.  The reason I stick to f2p's is ease of access, I can download it one morning, play it through the afternoon, and occassionally delete it at night.  Yes, I realize that some p2p's are simply too big to offer in a free download, but I would certainly think a little harder about some if it did not cost 30-50 dollars to take one out of the store, or if I could get those disks and have 3 months of free gameplay out of the box, instead of the standard 30 days.  To hear some people talk you have to spend 30 days just to reach the forefront of the good parts, and months to reach a lvl worthy of notice, and that's if you play more than a few hours a day.  The simple fact is, I can't see myself spending money on something I may or may not like, when it is far easier to simply follow a link take a download and play an hour later.

To use another internet trend to add a little perspective, when Napster was free and it's hey day of music 'theft' was at it's peak.  How many people were out there decrying that state, how many people were posting to forums to decry these 'theives' just because they went to the store to by the CD's and got a lot of music that wasn't so good on all the tracks they didn't like.

Minority or not, people who decry f2p's on the general principle of it, are making a whole lot of noise and not really saying a whole lot.  The simple fact is, RMT's are making money, so fiscally they make sense.  While some put down others for not being hardcore, I personally I have just as quickly quit games for some of those very same hardcore players.  Before someone tries to take a bite out of me.. I do realize that those kinds of hardcore players, are not generally the same kinds of hardcore players that are found on p2p.  Nevertheless one white sheep pretty much looks the same as another white sheep, no matter which field it is in.  Maybe the true hardcore shouldn't expect the casual players to make the distinct between the power-haters who call themselves hardcore.

No matter how one might look at it, the more outcry, the more attacks that are thrown down by the hardcore towards those who lack the same drive, the more those lines between sheep blur.  And any amount of negativity sent at f2p's, rmt's, Msog's, and whatever other acronyms or names one puts in there is only going to drive away those who are sitting the proverbial fence between the fields, and the true hardcore will continue to shrink in the face of a growing gaming population and continue to be ignored by developers.

Well .. its his playstyle, He does however have no clue what mmo's  are about .. this non bonding thing you write..
how wrong can you be... 

Personaly my best mate is a Fin (im dutch) We know each other for .. 6 years now , talk about anyting and everyting. some other good friends living near me and those i know from the net found there true love online. and ofcource me, there friend :P
 

Building someting up over the years whit a comunity makes a verry strong emotional bond between people, some people you will never see again, some will be friends for live.

not playing past newby status (even if you have a free endgame toon you start as newb ) does not tell you anyting about mmo's .

its like playing mass effect till sheppard  has done the first mission and then just quit. or like playing fable 2 , do the first become a hero quest and stop there.

You sir should make new Colomn focusing on two week trials.  you be having fun and  can play as manny as you like .


 

Okay, I tried. I tried to give this guy the benefit of doubt that he actually had "something interesting" to say within the space of MMOs, f2p or p2p. All I'm seeing, however, is a constant "defensive" series of ranting with a very, very weak attempt at draping it in the form of discussion and/or semi-intelligent opinion. It always leads back to some thinly veiled slap of the face to anyone who doesn't worship at the alter of f2p games next to Aihoshi.

1) If you don't love f2p games, there's obviously something wrong with you.

2) No matter your reason for not liking them, your reasons are neanderthal at best and you are a simpleton.

3) I don't play these f2p games for more than 50 hours (2 days, 2 hours), but in my "impression play period" I can definitively state that they offer top notch quality and if any of you have played them for longer and state anything to the contrary, you're obviously a fool and don't know what you're talking about.

That about sums Aihoshi up for me. Sorry, bud, I don't give a crap how long you've been on some gamesite "writing" about games. You don't "know any better" that a large percentage of the MMO community and really have no place making some of the snide swipes that you make.

I've seen a few Blue Falcons (you can Google it if you don't know what it means) in my time, but you...I'm hard pressed to think of anyone in my personal experieces that surpasses you. And yes, before anyone else says it, moving forward I'll exercise my right not to read these jokes of internet literary "work".

Dana's articles: Spot on. They show he's down here in the trenches and has a finger on the pulse of the heart of the MMO community.

Sanya's articles: Good work. (and as I said before originally I wasn't keen on her when she was at Mythic as CM)

Jess' articles: Ok. I don't agree with his "tastes" as far as MMO gaming and where it "should go, but he doesn't finger point.

Khalathwyr, I can't say that I agree with your assements, as I'm always attempting to learn from everyone. I don't always agree with Aihoshi, but he is usually worth reading to see what his current take on F2P games are. I've played quite a number myself. The longest was Cabal(level 105 warrior).  They tend to follow the usual formula that one expects from Asian grinders. Some to a greater or lesser extent(Runes of Magic comes to mind as a good take on some of the WoW dynamics in a F2P game).  I've not received the same impressions you state. But F2P hasn't met the best reception in the west(with a few exceptions). Some of that might be due to poor localization, much is due to cut and paste engine reworks. Which might be why he seems defensive at times.

Good write-up and some good discussion here too, most of which I agree with or at least share some common ground. I too try out many F2P's and really feel that while I may not experience endgame content in most of them, that I get a pretty well rounded view of what is available and current gaming trends in the genre. I also do have a few F2P games that I play daily at least to check in along with my usual retail games, and I don't know too many people such as myself who really appreciates some of the really great Free games along with the Pay games. Most people like one type or the other, but there are pros and cons to both. Both can be tons of fun though and certainly beat other forms of popular entertainment any day of the week!

Originally posted by Shiva_Shadow

I can't say I disagree with the mindset of the 'hardcore' gamers, most of them play more of their games of choice in a month than I will play games in a year, I think the developers are making a mistake, 'dumbing down' as some have put it of games to appeal to a more mass-market crowd.  While this trend seems inevitable since numbers don't really lie and the more players there are the more money they are making, be it f2p or p2p, I think those that scream down, attack or otherwise hate games for being f2p or for using Rmt's are 'pissing into the wind'.  The change is inevitable at this point, as long as their is money to be made developers will keep putting out more and more f2p's, whether or not they are quality.

But I also have to say if the p2p developers gave the masses a few more options than maybe there would be a few more dedicated players out there in the world.  For my part, there are a lot of subscription games I would want to try, only I don't have or I don't want to pay to do it.  The reason I stick to f2p's is ease of access, I can download it one morning, play it through the afternoon, and occassionally delete it at night.  Yes, I realize that some p2p's are simply too big to offer in a free download, but I would certainly think a little harder about some if it did not cost 30-50 dollars to take one out of the store, or if I could get those disks and have 3 months of free gameplay out of the box, instead of the standard 30 days.  To hear some people talk you have to spend 30 days just to reach the forefront of the good parts, and months to reach a lvl worthy of notice, and that's if you play more than a few hours a day.  The simple fact is, I can't see myself spending money on something I may or may not like, when it is far easier to simply follow a link take a download and play an hour later.

To use another internet trend to add a little perspective, when Napster was free and it's hey day of music 'theft' was at it's peak.  How many people were out there decrying that state, how many people were posting to forums to decry these 'theives' just because they went to the store to by the CD's and got a lot of music that wasn't so good on all the tracks they didn't like.

Minority or not, people who decry f2p's on the general principle of it, are making a whole lot of noise and not really saying a whole lot.  The simple fact is, RMT's are making money, so fiscally they make sense.  While some put down others for not being hardcore, I personally I have just as quickly quit games for some of those very same hardcore players.  Before someone tries to take a bite out of me.. I do realize that those kinds of hardcore players, are not generally the same kinds of hardcore players that are found on p2p.  Nevertheless one white sheep pretty much looks the same as another white sheep, no matter which field it is in.  Maybe the true hardcore shouldn't expect the casual players to make the distinct between the power-haters who call themselves hardcore.

No matter how one might look at it, the more outcry, the more attacks that are thrown down by the hardcore towards those who lack the same drive, the more those lines between sheep blur.  And any amount of negativity sent at f2p's, rmt's, Msog's, and whatever other acronyms or names one puts in there is only going to drive away those who are sitting the proverbial fence between the fields, and the true hardcore will continue to shrink in the face of a growing gaming population and continue to be ignored by developers.

Well, almost all P2P game offer a free trial also, and in some cases you can just start paying once the trial is done if you like the game (like Vanguard, EQ2 and TCoS).

Tjere is one gsme that is in between of P2P and F2P however: Guildwars. You buy it for the cost of a regular game and then you play it as a F2P game after. No cash shops, no buggs and a lot better gameplay than any F2P game. There is a free trial also, if you havn't tried it you really should, it is in a different class from all the F2P games that are out right now.

You still have to pay for the expansions (if you don't buy the pack with everything in, it isn't that expensive) but the business model works, GW is the second best selling western MMO ever.

I know Loke666, but to be honest Final fantasy XI was what got me interested in Mmo's and by the time I had a computer good enough to run them it was fading fast, and none of the others have really captured my interest.  There are a few like Eve that came close, but.. well I guess you could say I got my heart set on something else.  With XIV announced today, it won't be a terribly long time before I change my inconsistent ways and settle down to become a loyal player.  Anyways, with free trials, I might have gotten caught up.. and at certain points not been able to afford to continue.  It happens ^^.

 I myself have had time spans in life where I haven't had as much time for one reason or another play games. I usually don't play MMOs during this time period because of things that you mention such as not able to group much, end up soloing majority of the time, not able to form lasting relationships with players in game.

Unlike you though I choose to play single player games during times in life when I have less time to play games. Why? The reason is I feel most online MMOs if they are any good will require a good chunk of time to really enjoy them. If I don't have time to form relationships and group a lot then I see it as a waste of my money. Also I find F2P games with are RMT usually not for me because then it really becomes more of casino type game where it is usually a battle of who has the most real life money which isn't the type of game I am interested in playing. I will play a slot machine if I want to bring real life into gaming. I think devs make some really great single player games with depth for times when I don't have much gaming time to play. I play MMOs for different reasons than I play single player games.

I don't need to be online if I am going to be playing by myself soloing. Another option during my MMO downtime when life is hectic is first person shooters. 

I think the best way to go for MMOGs is the way AION is being charged in China.

You just simply buy x ammount of hours of play. And don't have to buy new playtime until you depleted it all. This way if you are a casual gamer, you don't have to worry about paying a lot when you can't be online to play. And for the more hardcore players it worked out to cost about $15 or $17 a month for something like 6 hours a day worth of play time.

To be honest I think that is a perfect middle ground, between the f2p and p2p games.

Originally posted by Diluvium

I think the best way to go for MMOGs is the way AION is being charged in China.

You just simply buy x ammount of hours of play. And don't have to buy new playtime until you depleted it all. This way if you are a casual gamer, you don't have to worry about paying a lot when you can't be online to play. And for the more hardcore players it worked out to cost about $15 or $17 a month for something like 6 hours a day worth of play time.

To be honest I think that is a perfect middle ground, between the f2p and p2p games.

Hmm... I find that setup to be almost as dubious as Item Malls.

Unless the hourly rate is very low, it could still come out to be considerably more than a flat $15 (or equivalent) per month.

They would have to charge around 3.5 cents per hour, based on a 30 day month.

I highly doubt they're charging 3.5 cents per hour, or that if I only play 20 hours out of a month, that I'll use a mere 70 cents worth of play time.

Don't forget that some people like to keep characters logged in while afk if they want to set up a private shop, etc. etc. (assuming the MMO in question has that capability).

I just think a $15-per-month sub fee is a nice, flat, straight-forward way to go about it. That's ~50 cents a day. I'm hard pressed to think of a comparable form of entertainment so inexpensive.

The only real effect this has, along with item shops, is that the developer potentially makes more money over a flat sub fee... but is the *player* getting any more value for their money? Or are we merely paying more for the same amount we've always had, or less?

Originally posted by Diluvium

I think the best way to go for MMOGs is the way AION is being charged in China.

You just simply buy x ammount of hours of play. And don't have to buy new playtime until you depleted it all. This way if you are a casual gamer, you don't have to worry about paying a lot when you can't be online to play. And for the more hardcore players it worked out to cost about $15 or $17 a month for something like 6 hours a day worth of play time.

To be honest I think that is a perfect middle ground, between the f2p and p2p games.

Perfect for whom? The company? Aion has that model to apease  the Chinese *government*(dictatorship). Though I must say that if our own Dear Leaders got that bad, that Blizzard would LOVE it. Can you imagine how much more they would make from their own hard core players?  The implications of this go far beyond the casual/hard core gaming styles.

1 (2hours 5minutes) point costs: 0.1805 buying from CH-USA if you buy 100 Points at once. Which equals about 208 hours worth of play time. Which in turn equals 6.9hours / day in a 30 day month.

So to play say nearly 7 hours/day you would pay $18. And this is through a third party retailer that needs to make money on it as well. (SDO doesn't take (foreign) creditcards it seems).

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by Diluvium

I think the best way to go for MMOGs is the way AION is being charged in China.

You just simply buy x ammount of hours of play. And don't have to buy new playtime until you depleted it all. This way if you are a casual gamer, you don't have to worry about paying a lot when you can't be online to play. And for the more hardcore players it worked out to cost about $15 or $17 a month for something like 6 hours a day worth of play time.

To be honest I think that is a perfect middle ground, between the f2p and p2p games.

 

Perfect for whom? The company? Aion has that model to apease  the Chinese *government*(dictatorship). Though I must say that if our own Dear Leaders got that bad, that Blizzard would LOVE it. Can you imagine how much more they would make from their own hard core players?  The implications of this go far beyond the casual/hard core gaming styles.

Political discussion can get kind of sensitive, and may even run afoul at times of proscriptions in the rules of conduct.  My usual rule of thumb is not to engage in political discussion when I don't know what I'm talking about.  I understand some people have different rules for themselves.

As a matter of opinion, I happen to agree with Diluvium in that the approach used is an interesting development.  It puts a bit more economic risk on the developers, but if they make a game that's engaging and that makes people want to play a lot, the risk may be worth it.  From a player's perspective, unless someone plays an inordinate amount of time or the amount charged per unit of time is too high, this model could be economically beneficial to the individual player.

Originally posted by Wraithone

Khalathwyr, I can't say that I agree with your assements, as I'm always attempting to learn from everyone. I don't always agree with Aihoshi, but he is usually worth reading to see what his current take on F2P games are. I've played quite a number myself. The longest was Cabal(level 105 warrior).  They tend to follow the usual formula that one expects from Asian grinders. Some to a greater or lesser extent(Runes of Magic comes to mind as a good take on some of the WoW dynamics in a F2P game).  I've not received the same impressions you state. But F2P hasn't met the best reception in the west(with a few exceptions). Some of that might be due to poor localization, much is due to cut and paste engine reworks. Which might be why he seems defensive at times.

Not sure which assessment you aren't agreeing with, not that I posted this in an attempt to gain your acceptance. Those numbered points are what I (as I stated before) get from Aihoshi. Reading his writing it is very easy to see those sentiments conveyed by him. And as far as learning from everyone, well, you first have to find people that have something, some knowledge or insight that is worthy of being taught. Aihoshi, in my view, hasn't displayed this at any point so far. He seems, in my opinion, to be the beneficiary of being in the right place and time to get a writing break and to be doing this "job". I've yet to read anything "enlightening" from him, even if I disagreed with it which has been the case with Dana and Sanya, that gives merit to him having such a podium to preach from. Point of fact, I have read posts from those in our community that were much more thoughtful and worthy of taking up the space Aihoshi is being slotted.

Essentially, I'm not sure what is so special about his "take" on f2p games as he hasn't displayed, in my view, any qualities in his writing that the vast majority of gamers out there don't have.

Good read. 

One thing about my guild in WoW is that being 'needed' kept me playing that game long past the point where I was actually enjoying it.  Something that is lacking in most MMORPGs is challenging single player content.  Only when the developers must take into account a large number of players do they seem able to abstract  the classes down into rudimentary enough numbers in order for the game to be a challenge.   People definately are looking for games that they can advance in individually.  Most of the people content to raid the same content week in and week out are pretty much just sheep who won't leave the game even if a better game does come out, F2P or P2P, unless the game is 'big enough' to warrant the guild leader jumping ship.  

Originally posted by bmdevine

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by Diluvium

I think the best way to go for MMOGs is the way AION is being charged in China.

You just simply buy x ammount of hours of play. And don't have to buy new playtime until you depleted it all. This way if you are a casual gamer, you don't have to worry about paying a lot when you can't be online to play. And for the more hardcore players it worked out to cost about $15 or $17 a month for something like 6 hours a day worth of play time.

To be honest I think that is a perfect middle ground, between the f2p and p2p games.

 

Perfect for whom? The company? Aion has that model to apease  the Chinese *government*(dictatorship). Though I must say that if our own Dear Leaders got that bad, that Blizzard would LOVE it. Can you imagine how much more they would make from their own hard core players?  The implications of this go far beyond the casual/hard core gaming styles.

Political discussion can get kind of sensitive, and may even run afoul at times of proscriptions in the rules of conduct.  My usual rule of thumb is not to engage in political discussion when I don't know what I'm talking about.  I understand some people have different rules for themselves.

As a matter of opinion, I happen to agree with Diluvium in that the approach used is an interesting development.  It puts a bit more economic risk on the developers, but if they make a game that's engaging and that makes people want to play a lot, the risk may be worth it.  From a player's perspective, unless someone plays an inordinate amount of time or the amount charged per unit of time is too high, this model could be economically beneficial to the individual player.

Simple statements of  fact may well be "sensitive" to some, but they remain facts none the less. That in fact is why Aion and many of the other games are using this and related models. I direct your attention to the Chinese governments "crack down" on on line games over the last 18 months.  Unless the fact that you dispute is that the Chinese government is a dictatorship?  That is self apparent. Any way, enough of that. 

As a business model the pay as you go approach, while logical on the surface is prone to creeping abuse(just as RMT is). Not to mention that in this case, the company can place the blame on the government.  Free market dynamics idealy would prevent such abuse. Unfortunately most markets are anything but free. Look at the steep barriers to entry of this particular market sector as an example.  Like it or not, the subscription game model is the one currently accepted by the majority in the Western world. That may change as time passes, but its not happening any time soon.

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

...................... Reading his writing it is very easy to see those sentiments conveyed by him. And as far as learning from everyone, well, you first have to find people that have something, some knowledge or insight that is worthy of being taught. Aihoshi, in my view, hasn't displayed this at any point so far. He seems, in my opinion, to be the beneficiary of being in the right place and time to get a writing break and to be doing this "job". I've yet to read anything "enlightening" from him, even if I disagreed with it which has been the case with Dana and Sanya, that gives merit to him having such a podium to preach from. Point of fact, I have read posts from those in our community that were much more thoughtful and worthy of taking up the space Aihoshi is being slotted.

Essentially, I'm not sure what is so special about his "take" on f2p games as he hasn't displayed, in my view, any qualities in his writing that the vast majority of gamers out there don't have.

/agree. As the Op is a self professed dabbler, without data and may often not get 'the point' of any particular mmo, I’m a little bemused as to why he is given such visibility.

 Blue Falcon: a version of the military acronym BF which stands for Buddy F*&%er. That is what someone who behaves in a manner which elevates his personal needs or desires above those of the unit to which he belongs.

froggyruminations.blogspot.com/2004/08/flight-of-blue-falcon.html

This was an interesting article.

I play like this simply because I really don't have the time week after week to devote to a "game".

Gaming, to me, is entertainment, not a lifestyle. Therefore when my time is demanded by other concerns, gaming drops to the wayside.

I also haven't looked for the endgame and endboss since Duke Nukem II. All that time and trouble in a single-player game? To do that in an MMORPG with the time needed to train up, form or join a guild, maintain good relationships, get a good group of mates together and we're going to have to try how many times?

I don't think so.

No, I play games to be entertained, not to work. Work effort I'd rather put into Photoshop. When I get sick of work I want fun, not more work.

So I go kill some mobs, buy or craft some gear, then the phone rings and I'm glad I can just shut it down.

Where does F2P fit into this scenerio?

Simply that I don't have to pay if I don't want to. Any gratification can wait - months if needed without costing me a cent - and that...that is a very good thing.

Id like him to altleast give us and in depth review of a couple free to play than rather just the concept of F2P, because the concept for a F2P is good but its never been done well, or with a good game.