Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by qombi

Killing 1000 mobs is not content.  Having a quest, and having a mob to kill is content, having lots of quests and lots of different mobs can be considered lots of content (although if they are all kill quests you could use the argument this is still just one item of content).  The content is not multiplied because you have to do it 1000 times, it is still just one item of content.

I have to ask then, why support a game you feel this way about? The way you describe it, I would assume you think this is bad game design by the way you have described it and have decided this particular gameplay is worth paying for to skip. Yes it is still game content even if it is game content you dislike.  When I find games I do not like the way they designed the game, I quit them. I will not pay to play a game then skip parts of it buy swiping a credit card. I play games for leisure diversion activity.

I definitely will not vote a "yes" with my wallet for gameplay I think is bad design. I want more games created that I do enjoy.

 

1. Don't make assumptions.  I never stated nor implied directely or indirectly anywwhere in my post that I like or disliked games with or without lots of content, nor did I comment on game design.  I just stated that doing one activity is not lots of content.  Any conclusions or inferences you draw from that are your own.  So maybe the question is, since you feel I was talking about bad game design when describing content, why do you feel it is bad game design.

2. I've played both.  Games with a lot of content and games without.  My support of the game and willingness to pay the developers money is based almost entirely on whether I enjoy the content it does have, not how much content it has. Someday I may come across something outside of the game that I feel is absolutely intolerable and can no longer support said company no matter how enjoyable that game is, that day has not yet come.   If I become bored of the game I may take a break, or quit.  Or if I generally like the game, don't want to quit but find one part absolutely atrocious I will usually find someone in game to do that for me and pay with something else from in game. That person will go and do all the grinding required for whatever it is that I wanted.  I don't really see much difference between paying someone 100 gold that I earned over 10 hours hours in RL by playing the game to do something for me that I dont' want to do, or paying someone a measly 10 bucks in RL to do something I don't want to do and saving all the grinding I didn't want to do and therefore saving myself 10 hours doing something I didn't want to do.  It all takes time, my time, which means it ultimately takes my money. 

Again if the whole game is like that, than I won't find it fun and quit.  If it's just a small part, we'll see.

It's about efficiency and time and what you particularly value more.  I value my time.

My time is more valuable to me than to waste doing something I want, again see the part where I said I still enjoyed the majority of the game - so quitting is not really an acceptable option.

I can tell you right now that I absolutely refuse to grind away for hours upon hours for weeks or more doing something I hate just to get an item or something that I will like so I can go back to the game I do like.  I've done it before and as someone here a long time ago once said, "I'm tired of doing things that deliberately poke me in the eye, I've put down my eye poker stick and will never take it back up.

I play games for entertainment and entertainment only.  If it's entertaining I pay, if it's not I quit. If I like most of it and not others, well then there had better be options available or I'm going to find them.

Venge Sunsoar

Before I pay for someone else to play parts of a game for me. I would rather play something that I enjoyed in total. That's just me I guess. If I had to buy my way through any part of a game I consider it bad game design. I don't play games that are unfun to me, that would be illogical. Instead of paying MMO company X 10 dollars cash to skip parts of their game I will go to MMO company Y where I enjoy all parts. 

Originally posted by qombi

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by qombi

Killing 1000 mobs is not content.  Having a quest, and having a mob to kill is content, having lots of quests and lots of different mobs can be considered lots of content (although if they are all kill quests you could use the argument this is still just one item of content).  The content is not multiplied because you have to do it 1000 times, it is still just one item of content.

I have to ask then, why support a game you feel this way about? The way you describe it, I would assume you think this is bad game design by the way you have described it and have decided this particular gameplay is worth paying for to skip. Yes it is still game content even if it is game content you dislike.  When I find games I do not like the way they designed the game, I quit them. I will not pay to play a game then skip parts of it buy swiping a credit card. I play games for leisure diversion activity.

I definitely will not vote a "yes" with my wallet for gameplay I think is bad design. I want more games created that I do enjoy.

 

1. Don't make assumptions.  I never stated nor implied directely or indirectly anywwhere in my post that I like or disliked games with or without lots of content, nor did I comment on game design.  I just stated that doing one activity is not lots of content.  Any conclusions or inferences you draw from that are your own.  So maybe the question is, since you feel I was talking about bad game design when describing content, why do you feel it is bad game design.

2. I've played both.  Games with a lot of content and games without.  My support of the game and willingness to pay the developers money is based almost entirely on whether I enjoy the content it does have, not how much content it has. Someday I may come across something outside of the game that I feel is absolutely intolerable and can no longer support said company no matter how enjoyable that game is, that day has not yet come.   If I become bored of the game I may take a break, or quit.  Or if I generally like the game, don't want to quit but find one part absolutely atrocious I will usually find someone in game to do that for me and pay with something else from in game. That person will go and do all the grinding required for whatever it is that I wanted.  I don't really see much difference between paying someone 100 gold that I earned over 10 hours hours in RL by playing the game to do something for me that I dont' want to do, or paying someone a measly 10 bucks in RL to do something I don't want to do and saving all the grinding I didn't want to do and therefore saving myself 10 hours doing something I didn't want to do.  It all takes time, my time, which means it ultimately takes my money. 

Again if the whole game is like that, than I won't find it fun and quit.  If it's just a small part, we'll see.

It's about efficiency and time and what you particularly value more.  I value my time.

My time is more valuable to me than to waste doing something I want, again see the part where I said I still enjoyed the majority of the game - so quitting is not really an acceptable option.

I can tell you right now that I absolutely refuse to grind away for hours upon hours for weeks or more doing something I hate just to get an item or something that I will like so I can go back to the game I do like.  I've done it before and as someone here a long time ago once said, "I'm tired of doing things that deliberately poke me in the eye, I've put down my eye poker stick and will never take it back up.

I play games for entertainment and entertainment only.  If it's entertaining I pay, if it's not I quit. If I like most of it and not others, well then there had better be options available or I'm going to find them.

Venge Sunsoar

 

Before I pay for someone else to play parts of a game for me. I would rather play something that I enjoyed in total. That's just me I guess. If I had to buy my way through any part of a game I consider it bad game design. I don't play games that are unfun to me, that would be illogical. Instead of paying MMO company X 10 dollars cash to skip parts of their game I will go to MMO company Y where I enjoy all parts. 

I would agree.  I would rather play a game that had no unfun parts.  I don't think such a game will exist or could ever exist as things one person finds fun another does not. 

At least in all my years of gaming I haven't found one yet.  There are merely games where I enjoy most aspects of them.

Venge Sunsoar

edit.  Actually I'm on the opposite end this time.  In Istaria I'm grinding mobs with my dragon getting trophies for someone else that doesn't want to.  He will use the trophies to level his character and is paying me a fortune of in game silver for it.  Since I like watching my dragon fight, and I want money for a plot it works out.  He is paying me to do something he won't like so he can get on with the things he does like.

Originally posted by qombi

Before I pay for someone else to play parts of a game for me. I would rather play something that I enjoyed in total. That's just me I guess. If I had to buy my way through any part of a game I consider it bad game design. I don't play games that are unfun to me, that would be illogical. Instead of paying MMO company X 10 dollars cash to skip parts of their game I will go to MMO company Y where I enjoy all parts. 

What about a game that have some very very fun parts, but you have to go through some really boring parts to go through. Plus, if you game X has some really fun content at the end, it does NOT follow that you can find the same content in game Y.

Thus, either you have to go through the unfun part of game X or get to it, or use RMT, or forget about the real fun part of game X.

Many certainly choose either to do the grind (unfun part) or RMT.

What about company Y does not exist (in fact, there is no or few MMO without the grinding, repetitive, non-fun part). Are you going to quit the hobby? Are you going to just accet the grind? Or are you going to use RMT?

Originally posted by Zlayer77

Dear Madeux and Orthedos you two are the strongest suporters of RMT in this thread so I would like to heare WHY you think this modle is the best.. All I see now is you trying to shoot down all that are against it.

please tell us why you think RMT is a  good thing, the pros so to speak. Why should we pay IRL money to be the best in a virtual world...

come on we all know by now that you are Fanboys/employes of the RMT please tell us why we should spend our money getting gear/items (thine AIR) ingame???

First thanks for the attempted insults without even reading what I repeatedly said.  I said I strongly object to RMT with illegal gold farmers.  I have NO STRONG FEELINGS about RMT from the original developer.  So stop putting words in my mouth.  Or claim that I am an employee of RMT.  For all I can guess you might actually be a RMT firm, trying to create negative propaganda just to bring people' s attention to RMT.  Come on, can we stop alleged and conspiracy theories after losing a debate?

Did I said RMT is good?  I said it does not affect my game play, so I do not see why I need to have strong views.  That equates good?  I just said your vehement and irrational crusade against RMT is groundless.  It does not improve gameplay as I see it.  It only smell jealousy.  I also do not agree that 24/7 gamers deserve better treatment from games, neither better loot nor access to restricted content.  I actually think that some of the 24/7 gamers are social leechers.

So pls learn to read and understand what I said and stop putting words in my mouth.

Originally posted by Dewm

 

That and what if, he used the helicopter to get to the top before me and then ganked me? fun? not really....

 

Trust me i've play'd a MMO where buying was a big part of it. and it sucked.

Then don't play it.  It sucks for you, so the gov't need to ban it.

I hate American food, should I ask Obama to pass a bill, ordering every American to eat Indian food?

Come on, you are not at a gun point, forced to play RMT games.

There are many products I do not approve, McDonald's, fancy watches and design fasion, and so on.  So what?  Start a crusade and try to spam emails shouting them down?

As a summary reply to these crusaders against RMT here are a few points for you to consider

(1) you are a consumer.  Your right stops at what?  refusal to buy.

(2) you are NOT the producer, you do not have a say on how producers price their products

(3) you are you, not me, you decide on how to use your money, I worry about mine.

(4) if you think RMT hurts you, or it burns your head, or burns your conscience, or burns your ego as you got beaten by a ... what you said 14 year old using mom's CC, so what?  Should we all commit suicide b/c you are somehow unhappy?  You look after yourself, or go to your mom/dad if your underaged.

(5) according to the rule of law, you can do nothing about anyone if they do not break the law, so far we are not talking about illegal RMT.  I agree we should call the police if the RMT is illegal.  That is mute.

So what the hell are you grumbling about?

(a) RMT is bad to games?  Ok that is your view, I already told you I do not feel that it affects my gameplay, as for how good or that RMT is for the entire games industry, I do not pretend to be an expert, and I feel you have hardly the skill to argue, no way I will consider you an intelligent person, your view on this matter is mute to me.

(b) RMT hurts your game play? ok so what?  I should care?  Just stop playing that game, oh dear, you must play a game that hurts you and then you come here moaning and moaning?  There are thousands of games, if you have a hard time, I suggest you go play tetris.  RMT cannot influence your odds in losing or winning.  Or play scissor-stone-paper.

(c) RMT is not fair?  Ok why is 24/7 fairer than RMT?  None is.  If you favour 24/7 select games that favour 24/7.

(d) RMT is immoral, is against the wish of god, breed crimes ... whatever religious fancy ideas to launch a crusade?  Go talk about it in a church.

Come on, apart from jealousy of a sore loser, I see nothing behind your pile of words.  Simply put" "Play games you like and stop worrying about games you do not like".

Originally posted by ikyle620

Example 2 I play alot of chess, on a stopage clock would it be fair if I could pay to get more time then my opponent?

 

In an RMT situation, this would be like selling a god sword for real money (a great method to commit RMT suicide). In most RMT situations, the analogy should be:

"I play a lot of chess. On a stop-clock match would it be fair if I could pay to play with blue pieces (instead of black or white)?"

or

"I play a lot of chess. On a stop-clock match would it be fair if I could pay to have the match recorded for my personal viewage later?"

Some RMT shops only offer items that do not effect gameplay (although most don't). I'm assuming most people would be fine with that. What I don't see is how people are putting the hate on EXP potions... Imagine if WoW sold EXP potions... Would you really care?

Looking into different financial systems for games, interested in this whole post.

You think this is not fair?

Consider sports, Manchester United typically beats Manchester City by a mile, b/c MU has the money to buy the best talents in town.  Consider the Olympics, the American athletes generally do better than many other countries' rivals, b/c they got air con homes, first class flghts, great medical support, massage, good hotel, food, retirement benefits.  So you cry foul?

If there is a chess tourney in which you can buy stoppage with money, do you want to play it? Yes No? your answer.  If you choose to play, stop bitching about the rules.

It totally hypocratic to join a game with known rules and keep denouncing the rules.

Originally posted by Orthedos

(Come on, apart from jealousy of a sore loser, I see nothing behind your pile of words.  Simply put" "Play games you like and stop worrying about games you do not like".

Yay my sig is usefull haha.

Venge Sunsoar

err slogan under my picture :)

Originally posted by beauturkey

If you are paying 15 dollars a month, you are paying for in game content.

It is the exact same thing, except with RMT you can choose more specifically where your money goes. It's not the "anti-game." 

 

 Beau

Sorry but the 15 bucks is to keep the staff going and pay for the bandwidth/servers.

RMT most certainly IS the anti-game,because it meets the selfish need of the individual,while ruining the game design and economy for the other legit players.

Take NCSOFT for example,or ANY developer that has a game that involves an extreme volatile economy determined by the players.You have an item that without any RMT activity would cost you say 50k gold.Once you allow RMT to flourish in that game,it drives the cost FAR beyond any normal playing conditions,to something like 5 million.Then soon every item i nthe game gets blasted out of the reach of players,unless they start to use RMT,it snowballs until it gets down right ridiculous.

NCSOFT is a huge culprit of feeding this CHEATING frenzy.It is one thing to make a game then make a mistake,but to REPEAT that same mistake,is sending the wrong message and really makes you wonder about the developers true intentions.NCSOFT makes players load an anti cheat/anti hack software,that EVERYONE including NCSOFT knows full well ,it does NOT work.So ask yourself why would they bother?Is it to mask the cheating or give naive players the false idea the game is not hacked and no cheating can take place?is it possible the developer themselves are involved in the RMT activity?you are darn right it is VERY possible,i go as far as tyo believe it.

This whole RMT thing creates another tool for a developer to make even more money from its subscribers,illegal money at that.

Originally posted by Orthedos

Originally posted by ikyle620

Example 2 I play alot of chess, on a stopage clock would it be fair if I could pay to get more time then my opponent?

 

In an RMT situation, this would be like selling a god sword for real money (a great method to commit RMT suicide). In most RMT situations, the analogy should be:

"I play a lot of chess. On a stop-clock match would it be fair if I could pay to play with blue pieces (instead of black or white)?"

or

"I play a lot of chess. On a stop-clock match would it be fair if I could pay to have the match recorded for my personal viewage later?"

Some RMT shops only offer items that do not effect gameplay (although most don't). I'm assuming most people would be fine with that. What I don't see is how people are putting the hate on EXP potions... Imagine if WoW sold EXP potions... Would you really care?

Looking into different financial systems for games, interested in this whole post.

 

You think this is not fair?

Consider sports, Manchester United typically beats Manchester City by a mile, b/c MU has the money to buy the best talents in town.  Consider the Olympics, the American athletes generally do better than many other countries' rivals, b/c they got air con homes, first class flghts, great medical support, massage, good hotel, food, retirement benefits.  So you cry foul?

If there is a chess tourney in which you can buy stoppage with money, do you want to play it? Yes No? your answer.  If you choose to play, stop bitching about the rules.

It totally hypocratic to join a game with known rules and keep denouncing the rules.

i'm sorry-- what?

in an RMT mmo, part of the rules include buyable items, so you aren't breaking any game rules from buying items. I can see how some people will start to formulate have and have nots, but it really depends on whats being sold.

Quoting myself here -> "I play a lot of chess. On a stop-clock match would it be fair if I could pay to play with blue pieces (assuming the game allows purchase-able blue pieces)?"

That would be fair.

"I play a lot of chess. On a stop-clock match would it be fair if I could pay to take extra turns?"

That wouldn't be fair.

The point i'm trying to make is that RMT does not immediatly equal FAIL. It's easy right now to point at all the shitty RMT MMO's that setup their games where you can buy the best items immediately, but the problem isn't the RMT system itself, it is the items or goods bought within. I'm definately seeing a trend here that shows how an RMT system scares someone by seperating the playerbase into "paying players" and "free players", but that is purely based on what items a player can buy from the cash shop.

I'm also seeing a lot of RMT = CAPITALISM ON CRACK. Although I can see how this conception could come into place, look at the accepted norms(taken from http://snafzg.mmofansites.com/posts/1332-f2p-rmt-valuation-the-89-10-1-rule):

Warhammer has 300k Subs, and makes 4.5Mil a month.

Free Realms has 1Mil users (at the time of this article), and makes $650K a month.

Free Realms, which now has 2 million accounts, is (even after gaining 1MIL users) still getting less money than Warhammer.

However, I'm still not seeing where EXP potions and skipping content come into play. Yes, if you use an EXP potion, you can play a smaller amount of time for the same benefit, but your playing through the same content. Does grinding through endless of the same mob count as content? Thats got to be the worst content ever. I'm betting a better solution would be to get rid of grinding and also lose exp potions, fixes both problems. Meh.

Originally posted by ikyle620

Originally posted by Orthedos

Originally posted by ikyle620

Example 2 I play alot of chess, on a stopage clock would it be fair if I could pay to get more time then my opponent?

 

In an RMT situation, this would be like selling a god sword for real money (a great method to commit RMT suicide). In most RMT situations, the analogy should be:

"I play a lot of chess. On a stop-clock match would it be fair if I could pay to play with blue pieces (instead of black or white)?"

or

"I play a lot of chess. On a stop-clock match would it be fair if I could pay to have the match recorded for my personal viewage later?"

Some RMT shops only offer items that do not effect gameplay (although most don't). I'm assuming most people would be fine with that. What I don't see is how people are putting the hate on EXP potions... Imagine if WoW sold EXP potions... Would you really care?

Looking into different financial systems for games, interested in this whole post.

 

You think this is not fair?

Consider sports, Manchester United typically beats Manchester City by a mile, b/c MU has the money to buy the best talents in town.  Consider the Olympics, the American athletes generally do better than many other countries' rivals, b/c they got air con homes, first class flghts, great medical support, massage, good hotel, food, retirement benefits.  So you cry foul?

If there is a chess tourney in which you can buy stoppage with money, do you want to play it? Yes No? your answer.  If you choose to play, stop bitching about the rules.

It totally hypocratic to join a game with known rules and keep denouncing the rules.

i'm sorry-- what?

in an RMT mmo, part of the rules include buyable items, so you aren't breaking any game rules from buying items. I can see how some people will start to formulate have and have nots, but it really depends on whats being sold.

Quoting myself here -> "I play a lot of chess. On a stop-clock match would it be fair if I could pay to play with blue pieces (assuming the game allows purchase-able blue pieces)?"

That would be fair.

"I play a lot of chess. On a stop-clock match would it be fair if I could pay to take extra turns?"

That wouldn't be fair.

 

The point i'm trying to make is that RMT does not immediatly equal FAIL. It's easy right now to point at all the shitty RMT MMO's that setup their games where you can buy the best items immediately, but the problem isn't the RMT system itself, it is the items or goods bought within. I'm definately seeing a trend here that shows how an RMT system scares someone by seperating the playerbase into "paying players" and "free players", but that is purely based on what items a player can buy from the cash shop.

 

I'm also seeing a lot of RMT = CAPITALISM ON CRACK. Although I can see how this conception could come into place, look at the accepted norms(taken from http://snafzg.mmofansites.com/posts/1332-f2p-rmt-valuation-the-89-10-1-rule):

Warhammer has 300k Subs, and makes 4.5Mil a month.

Free Realms has 1Mil users (at the time of this article), and makes $650K a month.

Free Realms, which now has 2 million accounts, is (even after gaining 1MIL users) still getting less money than Warhammer.

 

However, I'm still not seeing where EXP potions and skipping content come into play. Yes, if you use an EXP potion, you can play a smaller amount of time for the same benefit, but your playing through the same content. Does grinding through endless of the same mob count as content? Thats got to be the worst content ever. I'm betting a better solution would be to get rid of grinding and also lose exp potions, fixes both problems. Meh.

I think I already replied earlier, in a summary, so might as well reply here.

Games industry is a business.  What a business can do or cannot do is defined by the law.  The business cannot restrict sub to Whites, excluding blacks, that is against the law.  Your idea of fairness is not provided in the law.  I can open a shop providing chess game, in which people can buy extra stoppage minute.  THAT IS NOT against the law.

A game is a game, a provider is a provider.  It is not a matter of national security or medical crisis.  If you do not like the rules of that game, move on.  Stop preaching me about YOUR OWN idea of what is fair.

I for one do not think it is fair to award the 24/7 more than the rest of us, no more fair than rewarding those who pay thru RMT.  Both are unfair, and both are irrelevant.  I just need to find a game I like and stop moaning here.

Originally posted by Wizardry

Originally posted by beauturkey

If you are paying 15 dollars a month, you are paying for in game content.

It is the exact same thing, except with RMT you can choose more specifically where your money goes. It's not the "anti-game." 

 

 Beau

Sorry but the 15 bucks is to keep the staff going and pay for the bandwidth/servers.

RMT most certainly IS the anti-game,because it meets the selfish need of the individual,while ruining the game design and economy for the other legit players.

Take NCSOFT for example,or ANY developer that has a game that involves an extreme volatile economy determined by the players.You have an item that without any RMT activity would cost you say 50k gold.Once you allow RMT to flourish in that game,it drives the cost FAR beyond any normal playing conditions,to something like 5 million.Then soon every item i nthe game gets blasted out of the reach of players,unless they start to use RMT,it snowballs until it gets down right ridiculous.

NCSOFT is a huge culprit of feeding this CHEATING frenzy.It is one thing to make a game then make a mistake,but to REPEAT that same mistake,is sending the wrong message and really makes you wonder about the developers true intentions.NCSOFT makes players load an anti cheat/anti hack software,that EVERYONE including NCSOFT knows full well ,it does NOT work.So ask yourself why would they bother?Is it to mask the cheating or give naive players the false idea the game is not hacked and no cheating can take place?is it possible the developer themselves are involved in the RMT activity?you are darn right it is VERY possible,i go as far as tyo believe it.

This whole RMT thing creates another tool for a developer to make even more money from its subscribers,illegal money at that.

 

Not true.
 

If the game sucks, if there are no one playing, RMT won't drive prices up.  Try to sell your golden sword of Tasos praising in DF for $2million, go try.  For a game that is fun and for ultra rare items that are rare (of course hehe), the price will be high, in any currency RMT or in game gold.

I remember seeing a certain dragon scale sold for 12k in WoW before BC days.  You know how much 12k  is?  It is something unimaginable for one item.  Price of items is determined by demand and supply, not by the currency of denomination.

Now whether you want RMT or not, I bet the guy paying the 12k is not likely going to get all 12k himself, alone.  He either hire somone to farm the money for him, or buy it thru illegal means.  The price remains 12k, as determined by the factors in game.  RMT only influence the way the transaction is completed.

If RMT is allowed in the game, that Mr ultrarich will buy 12k gold from blizz, if not that Mr ultrarich will buy 12k gold from the gold farmers.

As for the rest of your text, its read like a religion.  RMT serves the selfish need of someone, anti-RMT serves whom?  God? or those who has more time to play than most?  RMT serves someone, stopping RMT?  serves someone else.  The someone else happens to be white knight in shinning armor, defending our common good?  Nuts.

Your personal vendetta against NCSoft is totally bullocks, I hardly see you talking sense at all when you get to that paragraph.

Originally posted by Orthedos

Originally posted by Zlayer77

Dear Madeux and Orthedos you two are the strongest suporters of RMT in this thread so I would like to heare WHY you think this modle is the best.. All I see now is you trying to shoot down all that are against it.

please tell us why you think RMT is a  good thing, the pros so to speak. Why should we pay IRL money to be the best in a virtual world...

come on we all know by now that you are Fanboys/employes of the RMT please tell us why we should spend our money getting gear/items (thine AIR) ingame???

 

First thanks for the attempted insults without even reading what I repeatedly said.  I said I strongly object to RMT with illegal gold farmers.  I have NO STRONG FEELINGS about RMT from the original developer.  So stop putting words in my mouth.  Or claim that I am an employee of RMT.  For all I can guess you might actually be a RMT firm, trying to create negative propaganda just to bring people' s attention to RMT.  Come on, can we stop alleged and conspiracy theories after losing a debate?

Did I said RMT is good?  I said it does not affect my game play, so I do not see why I need to have strong views.  That equates good?  I just said your vehement and irrational crusade against RMT is groundless.  It does not improve gameplay as I see it.  It only smell jealousy.  I also do not agree that 24/7 gamers deserve better treatment from games, neither better loot nor access to restricted content.  I actually think that some of the 24/7 gamers are social leechers.

So pls learn to read and understand what I said and stop putting words in my mouth.

LoLz mate when did I lose this argument, Your post are all over the place, and the only thing you do is bash people that do not agree with you. You havent shown us any strong points WHY RMT would work better then P2P. And the social aspect of people getting hooked, on spending to mush money in the chash shops dosent seam to have enterd your mind, or even bother you in the slightest. Many people are weak (children especially) who many of these games target. Im against Gambling in general and selling alcohol to underaged people. My argument have always been that RMT Is a bad business, Targeted at a Teenage audience, who migh not have the life experiance to controll thiere shoping habbits

You say that I am on a Irrational crusade against RMT. I think its fairly rational to voice once objection against a system that in the wrong hands could prove catastrophic to certain people and families.
 

Now you might counter me and say im seeing it all in Black, and the RMT is not like this. But there are serveral cases where Kidds have gotten exploited by these games.

Now your argument always comes back to YOU; It dose not effect YOUR game play, It dosent bother YOU that people spend IRL money on virtual items.

But this thread isent called "Do RMT bother Orthedos"

Many have voiced there concerns about RMT and you have still to show us WHY its any good. Instead you say that we are Irrationall Crusaders, that have not a leg to stand on.

-Balance issues

-Unfair advantage to people with more IRL money

-Risk that people get addicted to buying items ( AAA and suport groups for Gamblers do exist for a reason you know)

-Marketing against a underaged audience, who are not of a legal age, or have the life experiance needed to make financial decision for themselfs.

-The moral issue of should games be for FUN or for money. Is it a healthy development that we might be expected to buy ourself thru games in the future?

-What message dose it send to the kidds of today, if when the going gets tough, its okey to bring out daddys credit card and cut corners.

THere are many more things i CAN BRING up but I think I have proven my point.

In closing arguemnt I will say this Cash games might work for you, but I personaly dont think its good or even Healthy for the mayority of the population. You might call me a Crusader, or an Irrational RMT hater. But I see the bigger picture here. If you took a step back and looked at the potential ramification of what  the RMT industry migth do to the genre, I think you would understand that we THE Crusaders DO have a POINT to our arguments.

Stop preaching me about YOUR OWN idea of what is fair.

I for one do not think it is fair

...? are you saying you want people to shut up about their own opinions while you shout out yours?

and for what it's worth, I didn't know you were pro-RMT until you actually stated it.

Alright Zlayer77, i'll give this a shot in a non-confusing manner.

-Balance issues/Unfair advantage towards paying players-

Most RMT games a terrible at making their buyable items. Lets say we have a game that only offers Costumes (that only change the look of your character), Magic Find Potions, and Experience Potions as buyable items. Everything in terms of character power is available to every player; non paying customers can still access every area, get every item (except costumes, which only effect visuals), and get every skill. In no way is the paying player "more powerful" than the non-playing player at the end-game. Assuming this game is like wow, with level progression, the advantages of the two potions would be to get to the "finish line" (level 80) faster, and to find more items (of the same quality). In the end, one player might experience more, but not better.

-Risk that people get addicted to buying-

Isn't this true about everything else in the world? This isn't going to be anything new, big spenders spend, if it isn't on a game it will be elsewhere. Even if so, the numbers say RMT games make less money than pay-to-play per customer, meaning there will be a net-saving of money when it comes down to every player. Assuming this spend-crazy person doesn't play the RMT game, won't they just go out and buy tons of something else?

-Games be Fun or for the Money-

As human beings, we buy ourselves through normal life, why can't that be replicated? Taxes are kind of like pay-to-play, but really, the living part comes from RMT's at Safeway for momentary benefits that we need to keep coming back for. <-- weak argument, but it was a weak subject to begin with.

-Teaching kids to cut corners-

This topic is even worse than the last one. Assuming you have an RMT system that doesn't imbalance payers and non payers, this really doesn't exist. I don't even think it does exist.

Originally posted by ikyle620

 Imagine if WoW sold EXP potions... Would you really care?

Looking into different financial systems for games, interested in this whole post.

I am also not against healthy ways for game companies to pay the bill. And if WOW sold xp potions i wouldnt mind really, as faster levelling wont hurt my game play enough to get me worried.

What does hurt my gameplay is, if people my level have 3x as great gears, move 2x faster, can teleport anywhere any time etc (even during pvp fights they can chicken their way out with item mall teleports, lmao). And, surprise, most new f2p games offer exactly that; balance breaking items.

On top of that, f2p games have a habbit of devaluating items from last week. Today i buy "the best new mount in town" and next week they introduce a new mount and again next week etc etc, thus succesfully devaluating my spendings and forcing me to jump through the loop again.

And last but not least they also have a habbit of breaking the rules of the game, wherever they see fit. Often a few times a year with major nerfs. Granted, so do p2p games from time to time, but mostly in favor of improving the game instead of improving the cash flow into developpers pockets.

What does hurt my gameplay is, if people my level have 3x as great gears, move 2x faster, can teleport anywhere any time etc (even during pvp fights they can chicken their way out with item mall teleports, lmao). And, surprise, most new f2p games offer exactly that; balance breaking items.

 

This is what i'm after. Most RMT's create imbalanced items. An RMT system that has only items that won't negatively impact other non-paying customers is a good system. Easy examples of shitty items would be a buyable-only god sword that insta-killed every hit, or an immunity-to-all potion for 5 minutes. Easy examples of good items or services are haircuts, tattoos, alternative dance animations, dye kits, and cosmetic pets.

The one thing I want to look at though is EXP potions. The way I see it is (in the eyes of the players who don't pay), someone logs in, plays the same content you play, and gets to 80 (say WoW again) in 5 days (fast, whatev). You log on, don't use the potion, and get to 80 in 7 days. His character has no statistical advantage over yours. He may have gotten there first, or with less effort, but you as a player are not directly effected by his purchase, nor are you at a disadvantage when it counts. I guess a valid argument would be "BUT HE WAS LEVEL 76 WHEN I WAS 70!!11!!", but.. come on.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

The fact that the content is repetitive is immaterial to the point I was making.

The content is kill 1,000 mobs to reach level 5. Then I want to kill 1,000 mobs to reach level five, with no way around that process.

I don't care whether you know how to operate yoru character or not. I want a game that gives me a path to make my character stronger, and I do NOT want a way to cheat.

There is no way to let you cheat, and not let me cheat, which is why I don't play RMT games. In an RMT game, I can just buy my way around the content, which means the content is no longer fun for me, since I have the money to do that.

IMO, Yes, your example is skipping content, and buying your way around it.

 

Killing 1000 mobs is not content.  Having a quest, and having a mob to kill is content, having lots of quests and lots of different mobs can be considered lots of content (although if they are all kill quests you could use the argument this is still just one item of content).  The content is not multiplied because you have to do it 1000 times, it is still just one item of content.

A candy store that sells nothing but coffee crisp chocoloate bars does not have a lot of content, even if it is has a million coffee crisps it just has stock with one item content.  It's inventory will still read just one item:  coffee crisp amt: 1000000

As far as this goes, "There is no way to let you cheat, and not let me cheat, which is why I don't play RMT games. In an RMT game, I can just buy my way around the content, which means the content is no longer fun for me, since I have the money to do that. "

My god man, take some personal responsibility.  You could just stop yourself, you know... just not do it.

Iyou are doing something and deliberately doing something and you dont' like doing that thing, and yet you are doing it for entertainment purposes, even though you don't like it, and doing it will f ruin the entertainment for you - you need a psychiatrist or maybe even a tough coach to give you some willpower.

Venge Sunsoar

IMO, you are suggesting I gimp myself and that I have no self control because I don't want to play a game where I have to gimp myself.

I want to play basketball, and enjoy the satisfaction of making a basket. But some short people want to play the game, and so you lower the basket for them (which lowers the basket for me too).

You are saying, my god man! Have some self control! Get on your knees to play the game, and it will be exactly the same!

Uh, no, it won't.

No amount of "willpower" will change the fact that you're just saying I should gimp myself in the game, and enjoy it. Do you enjoy gimping yourself in a game? If not, is it because you have no willpower?

I think alot of it comes down to how it's actually implemented.

I don't think anyone here is advocating that a player be allowed to buy a maxed our character, or an all-powerful pixie stick that let's you dominate.

First of all, I think charging money for character make overs, transfers, and purely asthetic items would be an easy sell.

But what about a weapon?  If you are given the choice of grinding mobs for 10 hours in order to get enough gold to buy it, or paying $1.00 to earn it, I don't see any harm.  When you and I meet for PvP, neither of us will know how the other got it.  And if you did actually grind for it, it's not as if it was hard, or you learned something key about the game lore.  You just spent more mindless time. 

The point is, we both got to choose how to get it.  Now we both get to have fun using our new weapon.

If we all decide to go to Disneyland, and some of us have the money to fly, and some of us have no choice but to drive, and some of us have the money to fly but choose to drive and enjoy the scenery, we all still end up in Disneyland.  And you won't hear us standing in line arguing that the guy who flew there doesn't deserve to ride Space Mountain.  We all got there in the way that suited us best. 

Personally, I love road trips.  They're relaxing for me.  But sometimes I want to get there fast, so I fly.  Aren't options and choices great?  Just because I CAN fly, doesn't mean I have to, and I often don't.

Love RMT, happy games are going that way.   Now those of us with careers that cant afford the task of playing a game 8 hours a day can have some fun and keep up on the level gaining.

Originally posted by madeux

I think alot of it comes down to how it's actually implemented.

I don't think anyone here is advocating that a player be allowed to buy a maxed our character, or an all-powerful pixie stick that let's you dominate.

First of all, I think charging money for character make overs, transfers, and purely asthetic items would be an easy sell.

But what about a weapon?  If you are given the choice of grinding mobs for 10 hours in order to get enough gold to buy it, or paying $1.00 to earn it, I don't see any harm.  When you and I meet for PvP, neither of us will know how the other got it.  And if you did actually grind for it, it's not as if it was hard, or you learned something key about the game lore.  You just spent more mindless time. 

The point is, we both got to choose how to get it.  Now we both get to have fun using our new weapon.

If we all decide to go to Disneyland, and some of us have the money to fly, and some of us have no choice but to drive, and some of us have the money to fly but choose to drive and enjoy the scenery, we all still end up in Disneyland.  And you won't hear us standing in line arguing that the guy who flew there doesn't deserve to ride Space Mountain.  We all got there in the way that suited us best. 

Personally, I love road trips.  They're relaxing for me.  But sometimes I want to get there fast, so I fly.  Aren't options and choices great?  Just because I CAN fly, doesn't mean I have to, and I often don't.

The harm is you ruin the fun of the game for me. I will pay a dollar for the4 sword, then quit because paying a dollar isn't fun, but actually being required to do the content is.

Not paying the dollar would just be intentionally gimping yourself, and that goes against human nature to have fun gimping yourself.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

IMO, you are suggesting I gimp myself and that I have no self control because I don't want to play a game where I have to gimp myself.

I want to play basketball, and enjoy the satisfaction of making a basket. But some short people want to play the game, and so you lower the basket for them (which lowers the basket for me too).

You are saying, my god man! Have some self control! Get on your knees to play the game, and it will be exactly the same!

Uh, no, it won't.

No amount of "willpower" will change the fact that you're just saying I should gimp myself in the game, and enjoy it. Do you enjoy gimping yourself in a game? If not, is it because you have no willpower?

Sorry Imhotepp but your argument is garbage.  In the basketball game, if the basket is lowered, and you still choose to play that game, you now have no choice but to use that basket, there is no other option.

In an MMO no matter, even an RMT you are not forced to buy anything - therefore the two situations are not comparable. 

I'm not saying you should gimp yourself, I'm saying don't deliberately do things that you feel would ruin the game for you.  If you are deliberately doing things that ruin the game for you and you are playing that game for enjoyment than what you are doing does not make sense on any level at all and you need help.  This is not difficult to grasp.  Don't do things that you think will ruin the experience for you.

If buying things takes away your fun, don't do it.  If playing in a game with RMT takes away your fun, don't do it.  makes some decisions.

Venge sunsoar

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by madeux

I think alot of it comes down to how it's actually implemented.

I don't think anyone here is advocating that a player be allowed to buy a maxed our character, or an all-powerful pixie stick that let's you dominate.

First of all, I think charging money for character make overs, transfers, and purely asthetic items would be an easy sell.

But what about a weapon?  If you are given the choice of grinding mobs for 10 hours in order to get enough gold to buy it, or paying $1.00 to earn it, I don't see any harm.  When you and I meet for PvP, neither of us will know how the other got it.  And if you did actually grind for it, it's not as if it was hard, or you learned something key about the game lore.  You just spent more mindless time. 

The point is, we both got to choose how to get it.  Now we both get to have fun using our new weapon.

If we all decide to go to Disneyland, and some of us have the money to fly, and some of us have no choice but to drive, and some of us have the money to fly but choose to drive and enjoy the scenery, we all still end up in Disneyland.  And you won't hear us standing in line arguing that the guy who flew there doesn't deserve to ride Space Mountain.  We all got there in the way that suited us best. 

Personally, I love road trips.  They're relaxing for me.  But sometimes I want to get there fast, so I fly.  Aren't options and choices great?  Just because I CAN fly, doesn't mean I have to, and I often don't.

 

The harm is you ruin the fun of the game for me. I will pay a dollar for the4 sword, then quit because paying a dollar isn't fun, but actually being required to do the content is.

Not paying the dollar would just be intentionally gimping yourself, and that goes against human nature to have fun gimping yourself.

your argument that it goes against human nature just doesn't work.  People DO choose to drive even though they can fly.  Some people enjoy the climb up the mountain, and others just enjoy the view at the top.  That is human nature. 

 You choose to call it "gimping yourself".  When you decide to put in a new lawn at your house, do you pay someone to do it, or do you gimp yourself by choosing to do it yourself.  When you're done, you can still enjoy the lawn if someone else did all of the work.  While other people enjoy the satisfaction of doing it themselves. 

But how does it take something away from you if I choose to pay to have it done, and you choose to do it yourself? 

No offense intended here, but the problem here seems to be with you, and not with the game.

In an MMO no matter, even an RMT you are not forced to buy anything - therefore the two situations are not comparable.

But you are competing with people in the same game world.

To continue the basketball analogy: If there were two baskets in that basketball game, one low and one high, and only certain players could use the low one but the points would count either way...would  you still want to play in that basketball game?

The majority of the MMO playerbase will never accept RMT for that reason. Unless it is for trivial stuff like costume parts or whatever.

I'm not saying you should gimp yourself, I'm saying don't deliberately do things that you feel would ruin the game for you.

I think most MMO players will take your advice and avoid RMT games alltogether.

how does it take something away from you if I choose to pay to have it done

The same way it takes away from marathon runners if people on motorcycles are allowed to "run" in the race with them...Because it cheapens my own accomplishment in the game.

RMT is legalized cheating. Not saying you shouldnt be allowed to play in a game with legalized cheating...just saying I wont want to play with you, and I doubt most MMO players will either.

No offense intended here, but the problem here seems to be with you, and not with the game.

So long as we are not playing in the same game, there is no problem. Developers that choose to allow RMT are shooting themselves in the foot. No one will take their MMO seriously. At least not in the US.

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

The harm is you ruin the fun of the game for me. I will pay a dollar for the4 sword, then quit because paying a dollar isn't fun, but actually being required to do the content is.

Not paying the dollar would just be intentionally gimping yourself, and that goes against human nature to have fun gimping yourself.

 

your argument that it goes against human nature just doesn't work.  People DO choose to drive even though they can fly.  Some people enjoy the climb up the mountain, and others just enjoy the view at the top.  That is human nature. 

 You choose to call it "gimping yourself".  When you decide to put in a new lawn at your house, do you pay someone to do it, or do you gimp yourself by choosing to do it yourself.  When you're done, you can still enjoy the lawn if someone else did all of the work.  While other people enjoy the satisfaction of doing it themselves. 

But how does it take something away from you if I choose to pay to have it done, and you choose to do it yourself? 

No offense intended here, but the problem here seems to be with you, and not with the game.

 

It's a psychological issue.  When people choose to measure themselves and their own worth in comparison to other people and what other people have/accomplish, it often carries over into a virtual world.  There are quite a few people who spend inordinate amounts of time in a game simply as an escape mechanism to get away from the dissatisfaction they feel with real life.  Sometimes, they feel that the deck is stacked against them in real life and that any virtual world they enter is an opportunity to start with a level playing field.  If they perceive that the playing field is not level in any way, then it defeats the raison d'être of their characters and means that their escape mechanism may no longer allow for an escape.  It's not hard to see how that can create quite a bit of frustration and emotional turmoil.