I think this game will be an epic win.  At least for me and those who like a truly casual / solo friendly / story oriented game.  What remains to be seen is how large this type of player base will be.  Personally, I think it will turn out to be much larger than say raiders or hardcores, which means a moderately to very successful game.

These types of threads really frustrate me.  Normally I'd say "no harm in pure speculation", but the reality is that there is indeed harm in it.  Time and time again, we've all seen it happen in these forums:  somebody speculates and within weeks it somehow becomes "fact" quoted elsewhere in new threads.

Here's the simple reality folks... most of what the OP posts about in this thread is just that... pure speculation.  Just because Bioware has chosen not to provide complete details on every feature in the game does not necessarily mean that it won't be there.  In fact, I respect the fact that Bioware has taken this approach.  When other game companies do the opposite (make claims that they later need to rescind) everybody is up in arms about the broken promises, the unethical behavior, etc.  So Bioware is taking a cautious approach.  This ensures that (1) they only release information about "sure bets" and (2) they build anticipation and mystery.

Also, you can hardly assume that what you see in screenshots/gameplay videos at this stage is in any way representative of the final product.  For people to suggest there will be a limited number of customization options for weapons, etc. is once again pure speculation based upon practically no real data.  It's akin to reading one (randomly selected) paragraph of a book and then assuming you know what the entire story is about.  This MMO is still quite a ways off from release (knowing a Bioware employee, I have a pretty good idea of when that will be, but won't break his trust by saying anything here).... we have a long way to go before anybody should start speculating.

http://www.starwarsmmo.net/news/edge-magazine-bioware-interview/

The Old Republics Game Director - new interview:

"Most importantly, you never want people to have to look for fun. People want to be guided - they don't want to have to find the fun."

I think this statement underlines half of what I said in my OP !

Sounds like another whining SWG fan who still can't get over that game and refuses to accept that this game, while different, could actually be entertaining.

Most of your arguments were completely baseless with no foundation in fact to back up your claims. The other half were just the tired sandbox vs. non-sandbox argument I have heard countless times on this forum.

I have said it before and I will say it again, the fact that this game is not like SWG is a good thing. Any developer in their right mind will learn from the mistakes of the past and not copy game mechanics from FAILED titles like SWG. Even before the NGE, that game was already bleeding subscribers and dying a slow death.

I am so very glad that TOR will be approaching the Star Wars franchise from a new and fresh and very possibly EXCITING standpoint. I have never understood why some people would rather play a nerf herder or any sort of a crafter than a STAR WARS oriented class. I don't remember a single time one of the characters in the movies gathered meaningless resources to sell stupid items in their customized homes. That just IS NOT exciting or important AT ALL to the storyline or universe of Star Wars.

I so wish that someone would make a game for you people so that you will stop trying to ruin other titles. PLEASE someone make World of Onlycraft so they will leave my games alone... 

Originally posted by Draccan

 

http://www.starwarsmmo.net/news/edge-magazine-bioware-interview/

The Old Republics Game Director - new interview:

"Most importantly, you never want people to have to look for fun. People want to be guided - they don't want to have to find the fun."

I think this statement underlines half of what I said in my OP !

And an old one:

"I hope so. I think it's a genre that's ripe for innovation. I think that WoW was the last landmark title, and of course it still drives success, but it's probably time for someone to step up and do something.

RM: I agree. And it's not a slight at all on Blizzard. I think they've done a great job. But the fact that people want to play that kind of game is an opportunity to really deliver that level of polish and quality, and innovate in a few key areas, while they continue to innovate in a few key areas, too. "

Ray Muzyka, founder and CEO of BioWare,

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3667/a_new_future_under_ea_ray_muzyka_.php?page=2

Originally posted by Draccan

 http://www.starwarsmmo.net/news/edge-magazine-bioware-interview/

The Old Republics Game Director - new interview:

"Most importantly, you never want people to have to look for fun. People want to be guided - they don't want to have to find the fun."

I think this statement underlines half of what I said in my OP !

This is a big misconception that many MMO players seem to make. Alas, I enter to clarify.

Having a guided experience in a MMO does not have to mean linear A to B game play and it does not mean that a game cannot still be a sandbox.

"Finding the fun" means simply to show players where cool stuff is that they can do.

Players DO want to be guided to different things, they just want to have choices. Players like you don't want to be led from point A to point B with no possibility of going off the path that is laid before you.

You want choices, you want options.

You can have the game guide you and show you the fun things to do without leading you by the hand between them.

Do you understand? 

When ToR's game director says that "you never want people to have to look for fun" he is very, very right. It's simply good game design. They spend countless hours and ridiculous sums of money to make this content for you to enjoy, it's only logical that they'd like to say "hey, look over here something cool and fun to do!"

What you and other sandbox types want is choices, you don't want to HAVE to go from Point A to Point B. You want to make your own path. You can do this with guidance and direction from the developers. They can show you the fun, and it's your choice if you want to do it or not.

But saying that you don't want any direction or guidance is simply asking for an exercise in frustration and annoyance that will likely lead to you never wanted to pick up the game ever again.

This is the very reason 99% of games come with tutorials.

Showing the fun is really the same as saying showing the content. Directing you to content and saying "here, I made this for you. Enjoy."

What you don't want is to be force fed this content, I get that. Games like WoW force feed you quest content because there really is no alternate path. You have to complete the quests in certain orders in certain zones etc.

It is yet to be seen if SW: ToR will force feed you the content or simply show you all the cool stories they made and allow you to choose to do them or not.

In SWG pre-CU, there was no content. It was "go and figure it out" much like EVE, original UO, etc. 

Historically speaking, based off of subsciption numbers and reviews, the vast majority of players these days don't respond to that kind of game anymore.

So let me get this straight Draccan, based on a couple sentences you believe you know exactly the kind of game Bioware is making and how people will react to it and the quality of it.  And knowing those things you know the game will be an epic fail.  Hrm, only thing I find curious is that you seem to think it will be a fail because it seems, from those couple sentences, to be taking lessons from the most successful MMO in the history of MMOs.  I think I see now, it makes perfect sense - you got very little info and you are presuming that info equates to them aiming at an MMO style that has over 10 million subscribers and that is why it will be an obvious fail.

Sure some of these statements are an insight into the kind of game ToR might be, and yes it may seem it is more WoW than old time sanbox. Of course we have no idea the quality of the game regardless of what its style might be.  Proclaiming a fail in the making simply because it is of a style like WoW when that style has had far more success than any other MMO style is just stupid.  I am no WoW fan, never even play and have no interest in playing, but it is clear that WoW is a success beyond any MMO ever conceived so that style is viable if done right.  As with anything the devil will be in the details and how finished and balanced it is when it releases, and how well supported after release. 

OP:

Really? SWTOR is a failure already? Did you forget who's developing it?

Yeah.. Bioware. They're one of those companies in which everything they touch turns to gold.

Besides that, if the release date is "not going to be before 2011", then why are you expecting a crapload of information to be out to the public already? Which MMO have you seen developed in which all class info, faction info, crafting info, pvp info, and the plethora of other info you ask for was released 2-4 years before the actual game release?

And another thing... Why the hell do people get so pissed off over the jedi class? I can provide statistical information which proves that 90% of star wars fans love jedi (which, by the way, the story was based around).

I see the point where a bunch of kids would just play the game for the jedi class and expect to be uber-pwn-rape-sauce, but still. Tell me with a straight face that you think this game would be complete without the jedi class.

Originally posted by Deathstiny

awww my poor pre NGE fanboi ...are your hopes of a pre CU SWG finally shattered and you need to lash out at the new SW game hmm?

lol what a joke of a thread - too bad you don't realize that the things you think are bad about SWTOR are things people actually WANT in an MMO and the lack of these "flaws" was the reason pre CU SWG died a horrible death.

 

Not really, SWG was doing fine, when WoW was released, SWG got a hit like all other mmo's at the time, but it was not a crushing blow, they went from 300k subs to 255k subs, games like EQ and DAoC got hit harder, that was, until the CU and NGE, since then it was all downhill until now where they have maybe 50k subs?

What really happened was that LA and SoE saw WoW's success and thought, hmm, lets get rid of these loyal customers and get these new WoW type customers, there are alot more of those ...

So they release CU and NGE ( aka Wowified SWG ) and screwed over peoples emotional investments, and destroyed their hobby.

But that was no problem for SoE, cause they knew they would get those better WoW customers, ... err ... NOT.

I don't hate SoE or LA, but they are a liability, I will not invest my time in mmorpg's made by a company that can destroy everything you have in no time. And they keep doing it, for example adding RMT and item shops to existing mmo's that were never built for this and still keeping a premium sub ...

Even tho EvE Online can be boring at times, so far I believe CCP is the only company that actually understands what mmorpg's are about, and how to nurture them.

There are a few lessons to learn here, but so far only few companies understand this.

One of the lessons is that making a WoW clone does not work, and turning an ok game into a WoW clone won't make it great.

So far none of the WoW clones or WoWifications have been a big success, and most of the time they are a big failure.

---

Originally posted by Sabradin

I'm going to take the opportunity to vent
WHY THE FUCK can't people just accept the methods, logic, patterns, and systems that have proven to be soo much more successful than any other fucking theory or attempt to be better?  WHY THE FUCK.. do people have to think they're fucking inventing something new?  WHY THE FUCK can't you just use whats already been shown to work?!  I know for a fucking fact that if you copied every fucking single piece of logic that WoW follows only you have new/different LOOKS (like different named citities, spells, etc.) you would have over a million subscribers.  BUT NO everyone thinks their fucking genius and will reinvent the wheel.  Guess what.. YOU'RE NOT.. you're a nobody who wants to find their spotlight instead of just being successful.
Jesus Christ WOW didn't do a single fucking thing that was original.  They took the methods that other games had that were shown to be successful and dropped the ones that weren't.  My Lord is it that hard?
God, thats what grinds my gears.
i couldn't lock this up tonight
stamp me!

---

 
And this is why nobody listens to you.  Try to at least be reasonable and somewhat of an adult when posting, make arguments, ideas, etc.
 
What WoW did was original in the sense that they took all those great things that made other games successful (I use "great" not as my personal preference, but what people wanted) and gave them a level of polish not yet seen in the MMO industry.  They took the game they developed uber seriously, and as a result were wildly successful.  Yet those circumstances can't be duplicated (not right now at least) but if people want to learn the lesson from wow, its not do what they did, but take the approach they did.
How many games have things deemed critical to the game mechanics that never get in, or get in over a year after launch?  Where fundamental parts of the game are fundamentally broken.  You really didn't see this with WoW.  So Bioware should be praised for at least trying something new and innovative (though not really, LOTRO tried and mainly failed with story based gaming), though I think at the same time they will learn the lessons Blizzard is teaching the MMO industry and to this day companies refuse to listen to.

Originally posted by jakojako

OP:

Really? SWTOR is a failure already? Did you forget who's developing it?

Yeah.. Bioware. They're one of those companies in which everything they touch turns to gold.

Besides that, if the release date is "not going to be before 2011", then why are you expecting a crapload of information to be out to the public already? Which MMO have you seen developed in which all class info, faction info, crafting info, pvp info, and the plethora of other info you ask for was released 2-4 years before the actual game release?

And another thing... Why the hell do people get so pissed off over the jedi class? I can provide statistical information which proves that 90% of star wars fans love jedi (which, by the way, the story was based around).

I see the point where a bunch of kids would just play the game for the jedi class and expect to be uber-pwn-rape-sauce, but still. Tell me with a straight face that you think this game would be complete without the jedi class.

I'd also like to note that when Blizzard came out with World of Warcraft, the same statements were made.  For those who thought WoW would be a failure, all one had to do was point out their pedigree.

1.)  The Diablo series, massive hits

2.)  The warcraft RTS games, legendary RTS games

3.)  Starcraft, probably the best RTS ever made.

In short, there were only about 6 or 7 games, yet all of them were massive hits.  Blizzard came to MMO design with a different perspective, being a successful company, but one that operated not on the quantity of games, but its quality.  Bioware has basically been the same way.  Anything they have touched has turned to gold because of the approach they take.  I'm interested in seeing how the bioware mentality translates into an MMO.

WoW excels at the whole carrot and stick nature of MMOs.  I have never played as I am not a big fan of the fantasy genre to start with but couple with the cartoony look I never even gave it a thought.  But that being said, WoW clearly succeeds at giving people just enough while holding out more to keep them going.  Much of the rest is really superfluous I think and it is always amazing to me how many MMOs fail on the basics of carrot and stick and risk verse reward.  Will ToR dethrone WoW, who knows - but can it be very successful simply by presenting people with a great IP, well polished and balanced game, and by implementing the incentives and reward systems properly - surely and whether they do that in a sandbox or quest/story driven framework I think is largely irrelevant.  If anything, even being more of a sandbox guy I think it is probably easier to be successful with the quest/story driven style because it is so much harder in a sandbox to achieve the balance and incentives necessary to drive a large MMO population over time.

 
The overriding point here is that it is obvious to anyone that WoW does what WoW does very well, despite the fact that it might not be my thing or that it might be getting old.  Any developer that can do what WoW does as well or better stands a chance at great success as there is clearly a market for what WoW does.  Sandbox is something I like but those of us who love the sandbox games have to be honest enough to look on the landscape and see that sandbox games are much more prone to failure and have yet to even come close to the kind of success WoW's formula has achieved.

Honestly in my opinion, every successfull MMO that I have seen.  *except for 1 or 2 of course*.   What really brought success to them is well their lore.   WoW belended so perfectly well with their single player warcraft series.  

Then there's FFX1, that game I have personal issues with but still.   They still follow their storyline well, yes I know no Final Fantasy actually shares the same storyline *except for x1 and x2*.  However they all share basically the same plot.

Eve Online is successfull simply because it's the first of it's kind, there really isn't much of a storyline.   The reason, they want you to make your own storyline and legacy.   Lots of the "News" and "Stories" they come up with, and yes it looks like it was a fake news broadcast.  Is generally 90% what's happening with players in Eve.   How I know is my corp talked to a reporter about our "Pirating" and controlling some low sec space, making people pay ransoms for their lives.

My main point of everything is generally if there's a good storyline or lore of a game it will almost always guarantee success.  Hell look at single player games.   What kind of game do you buy?   Generally one that looks interesting or you have some history with the storyline or look for interesting lore you might like.   Bethesda was damn good at their lore as an example.

If they can make a Star Wars game that's almost fully focused on the Lore of Star Wars.  Since we all know SW very well, most of us will be drawn immediatly, and if we feel "part" of it.   We will definitly stay.

Sorry guys my grammer sucks ass, the wife has been trying to make it better but oh wel lol. 

Gameplay makes games plain and simple - lore is important to add to good gameplay but plenty of games have great lore and are epic fails (Conan, SWG, DDO, Vanguard, and on and on).  Mind you I am not saying lore, or IP to br more broad, doesn't matter but alone lore does not a game make or break - gameplay does.  Without good gameplay (as judged by the audience) no amount of lore will make the game a success.

Originally posted by AgtSmith

Gameplay makes games plain and simple - lore is important to add to good gameplay but plenty of games have great lore and are epic fails (Conan, SWG, DDO, Vanguard, and on and on).  Mind you I am not saying lore, or IP to br more broad, doesn't matter but alone lore does not a game make or break - gameplay does.  Without good gameplay (as judged by the audience) no amount of lore will make the game a success.

Well gameplay without a doubt is definitly one of the most important factors.  However I know some games that just completely suck, has great gameplay but no story.

As well Final Fantasy 11 has just freaking horrible gameplay, if you've played it you'd understand lol.   Unless that's the only MMO you've really played.     But yet it's quite successfull.

If there was a game that had a great balance of story and gameplay, I believe it would be a serious compeditor in the gaming industry.   I'm really hoping Bioware keeps it's rep and delivers what most are hoping :D   They've done it plenty before so I'm excited for ToR.

Originally posted by xS0u1zx

Well gameplay without a doubt is definitly one of the most important factors.  However I know some games that just completely suck, has great gameplay but no story.

It is the most important factor, hands down.  Without good gameplay, again as interpreted by the players, the game has no chance at 'success'.  Lore and social elements and all the other stuff is what gets you from OK or good to great and whatnot.

Originally posted by xS0u1zx

As well Final Fantasy 11 has just freaking horrible gameplay, if you've played it you'd understand lol.   Unless that's the only MMO you've really played.     But yet it's quite successfull.

I may not like FF gameplay (never played it myself) and you may not like it but rest assured that the bulk of players like it or the game wouldn't be near as successful as it is to whatever degree it is successful.  You cannot make the mistake so many people here do and assume that just because this or that element (in this case gameplay) of a game is not to yoru liking that everyone else feels the same way.

Originally posted by xS0u1zx

If there was a game that had a great balance of story and gameplay, I believe it would be a serious compeditor in the gaming industry.   I'm really hoping Bioware keeps it's rep and delivers what most are hoping :D   They've done it plenty before so I'm excited for ToR.

I agree, it is the combo of gameplay and the various other elements that make for success.  But have no doubt that no matter what anyone says gameplay is the overriding factor in any game's success.  A good gameplay MMO might still fail if it has terrible bugs or is lacking even decent other elements but I am talking games that could be said to be successful, if you really get down to it all of them are first owing their success to gameplay and second to the other elements.  Heck, an MMO without 'gameplay (as general as that term is) is just a movie or comic book, gameplay is the core element that defines the genre let alone the games.

Originally posted by Draccan  

 

But truth is that Bioware is still keeping major parts of what this game is about under wraps. But for sure some things can be concluded now:

With the little info there is out there, not many things can be concluded honeslty

1. Classes. Players will be stuck in one class.
http://www.swtor.com/info/holonet/classes
Seems to be eight classes. Jedi: Trooper, Jedi, Smuggler | Sith: Sith, Bounty Hunter

What is the problem with that?  most people seem to enjoy that, I perosnally don't have a problem with it, if you are comparing a game to an old generation of MMO's is kind of silly

2. Factions. Players will be stuck in a faction - nothings points to mobility in allegiance.
Treaty of Coruscant = no real pvp
http://www.swtor.com/info/holonet/allegiances

 

And you based that in the absolute lack of information on PvP? are you sure that they wont advance the lore more and are building it up for release? it is possible that the treaty falls as the game launches?  they did say the game is very story driven so it would make sense to advance the story as time passes.

 

3. Space. Not going to be included. We would have known by now.
Some will add: SWG didn't have it at launch, but this isn't 2003. Market is now very over-saturated with mmos and will be even more in a few years. Companies like Funcom counts on selling just enough copies at launch to give them a surplus. They know their games don't have lasting potential. ToR will have even less longevity than AoC.

 

So to be successful we need space battles? hmm, I don'agree, comparing Funcom to Bioware is like comparing Chrysler to Toyota in the current market. You have abdolutely no argument there.

4. Instances. Hard to say, but I wouldn't be surprised they go the way of AoC.

Lets compare every new game to AoC, even if we don't have any facts or concrete information.

5. Crafting. Bioware states time and time again that this game is about story and heroes. Crafting is not part of their thought-proces. It isn't that slick, so why include it. Crafting is about creating your OWN story. And Bioware's idea of story-telling is that THEY need to direct your story.

 

Thay stated there will be crafting, again, you assume things you don't know, focusing on sotry doesn't mean they wont put amazing effort on other parts of the game.  in you world lack if information means it will be a failed feature.

6. Non-combat classes. This game will center on heroes. Meaning, vanilla gameplay with limited options. Don't expect anything but minor non-combat skills.

and you are sure about this because you played the game already? again, absolutely no basis for your assesment.

7.  Release date. Not going to be before 2011. These games always get postponed. Just wait and see. Could even be later.

 

Got a letter from the high ups in EA or Bioware?  we don't know how far along they are, the game has been in production around 4 years already,  mmo's ussually have 5 year development, again you have no grounds to you assumption.

 

8. Gameplay linear? Yes it will be. While technically possible to create great stories in a non-linear environment.

same as above, you don't know, nobody knows.  if you want a sandbox game, please play another game.

9. Housing? Player Cities? Housing and player cities also goes against the grain of their story-driven mmo where players are heroes, not housebuilder or crafters.

you don't know if they will have that, assumptions with no information.

10. Combat system. Not much is known. But it will be smaller variety on the WoW/EQ formula. Sort of like other games like TCoS or AoC tries to change the formula. Don't expect something truly different, but something towards those lines. Maybe with a few twitch elements here and there.

you said nothing in many words.

11. Jedis. This time period is chosen to appeal to all the kids who wants to have a light-saber swining jedi (or sith). It is the lowest common denominator. There is no two ways about. But the uniqueness of the jedi character will drown in the multitudes of them after a while. Will that feeling of "wow a lightsaber" last?

 

I am not kid and I find jedi's very appealing, but I also find other classes even more appealing, assuming what will happen when you don't know the game...

12. PvP. A bit unclear. Except it to be children friendly. But since it is factional there must be some. A cross between WoW and WAR is not unheard of. Can anyone honestly expect something more hardcore with the direction this game is taking?

why expect one thing or another? what is more hardcore than WAR?  what is hardcore for you? full PvP loot?  to cater a nitch group of players?

13. Graphics. Most likely next-gen graphics. Some improvements on existing ways of doing it. Maybe similar to AoC quality.

not similar to AoC, they are not making the art look real, they have an artistic look, just read more...

 

Conclusion:

This game is the NGE that LA always wanted. It will be linear, story-driven, have few hours of longevity, cater to the light-saber crowds, kids - tie in with graphical style of the Clone Wars, little crafting, not hardcore pvp, not many options, but lots of hand-holding and lead you through the maze..

Conculsion: you don't know what you are talking about, you have no basis to make such claims,

Some might now jump in and say that it is guess-work, that we don't know all the facts; that maybe there will be deep crafting, hardcore pvp, housing, space flight etc. But these comments are ignorant and nothing to do with the truth. Truth is that the path of TOR is already set and it is set up for eye candy and a hollow gameplay. Not a real MMO as it won't be that massive or free.

you are the one guessing, since there are no facts yet, everything you say is based on nothing.. I am not saying I know how the game will be, I just know that we have to wait and see... and the game will not be free and that is a very good thing.

Games make and break at launch now. There is no time to make space six to twelve months after (and what good did it really do SWG in the long run). There is no time to make that expansion that fixes all the problems (WAR + AoC). Either you make it or you will suffer a slow, suffocating death.

 

now you can see the future and know how the launch will be?

Bioware has taken the easy route of doing everything as simple and dumped-down as possible. It won't be hardcore pvp, it won't be massive diverse game with many play-options like crafting and non-combat professions.

 

there are only 2 companies that produce quality game after quality game  and been around for yeas, Bioware is one, read some about the company and what games they have produced and the quality of the games.

What game companies does not understand is that the whole foundation of mmos is built around the principle that players should have the option of doing what THEY want in the game. Interact in many ways and not just kill-botting each other or npcs over and over. The combat oriented gamer should want the crafters and non-combatees to give flair and atmosphere to their game - to be able to interact with when needing an armour or a new weapon. This is what breathes life into the genre.

 

that is what YOU want, sadly or fortunately, the game that is the king of the mmo's is not what you describe, and no matter what your opinion about WoW is, that game is succesfull like no other game, so just with that your assesment it wrong.

What Bioware is doing is to put one more nail in the mmo genre coffin. This game might get close to a million boxes sold or even 1.5 - but in the end it will be like many other mmos out there with empty, EMPTY servers after six months. People will buy it for the name, Star Wars, but leave when they see there is no freedom in this game. For Bioware it will mean not only breaking even, but also making a big chunk of cash - but for the players - the gaming community - it is just one more way to kill PC gaming..

 

you can see the future? can you please tell me who will win the super bowl?

 

 

my conclusion for you post is that you have no information and you make guesses as if they are the truth, I am not saying the game will be a hit or a bust, I am just saying we don't know yet, we have very little info to assume anything, lets wait and see what they are making, if the game sucks I am going to be the first one to say it, until then, lets try not to assume.

 

To the OP:

About what a MMO should be like: different players have different tastes.

Rest of your post is just assuming and guessing about features that arent revealed yet. Cant you simply wait and see how the game will be? You are acting just like one of those 'its the end of the world!!' prophets, that you never hear from again after the world proves to be still existing.

Sometimes mmorpg.com is a real cespit of tinfoil hooded sectarians and wannabe nostradamus (even the original was a douchebag).

IDK, the people who were lucky enough to try or see it say its pretty good.

www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x

Before WoW, there was EQ and before that was UO.  Top dogs topple in their time.  WoW's days are numbered, it's just the nature of the beast.  If SWTOR is the one to do it, great, if not, it will still likely be a very fun game.  I certainly have liked all of Bioware's games so far.  If not SWTOR, then some other game will beat the crap out of WoW and  with no warning.

Originally posted by Vrazule

Before WoW, there was EQ and before that was UO.  Top dogs topple in their time.  WoW's days are numbered, it's just the nature of the beast.  If SWTOR is the one to do it, great, if not, it will still likely be a very fun game.  I certainly have liked all of Bioware's games so far.  If not SWTOR, then some other game will beat the crap out of WoW and  with no warning.

The idea that one game is going to "kill" WoW is ridiculous. I don't understand why everyone expects, or hopes, for the newest game to "kill" the 800-pound gorilla. Sure, you all may be sick and tired of WoW and the "clones" it has spawned, but only a combination of things are going to "kill" it. It will never die; games like UO and EQ are still around.

1) Blizzard's new MMO will take the vast majority of WoW's subs. Out with the old, in with the new is the way for most casuals.

2) Even if SWToR, and possibly Aion, are successful, the best they'll do is make a dent in WoW's numbers. Not everyone is into the cutsey, overly Asian stylized look and feel of Aion, and who knows how Bioware will do with SWToR. It's all based on hopes and the company's ability to deliver quality games...thus far.

So, we'll have to wait and see how it develops. Time, Blizzard's new MMO, and possibly some of these new MMOs, in combination, could be enough to topple WoW - but never "kill" it.

With WoW's age there very well could be a killer that comes along if you define a killer as the one game that took such a chunk of WoW's subs that it marked at least the beginning of the end of WoW as a singularly, unique mass success and saw it fading like other top games of a time.  That being said, it will likely be a death of a thousand cuts but more than killing WoW I think people really use WoW killer to mean the next WoW like success, and a SW game done well certainly could fit that bill.

Originally posted by Comnitus

Originally posted by Vrazule

Before WoW, there was EQ and before that was UO.  Top dogs topple in their time.  WoW's days are numbered, it's just the nature of the beast.  If SWTOR is the one to do it, great, if not, it will still likely be a very fun game.  I certainly have liked all of Bioware's games so far.  If not SWTOR, then some other game will beat the crap out of WoW and  with no warning.

The idea that one game is going to "kill" WoW is ridiculous. I don't understand why everyone expects, or hopes, for the newest game to "kill" the 800-pound gorilla. Sure, you all may be sick and tired of WoW and the "clones" it has spawned, but only a combination of things are going to "kill" it. It will never die; games like UO and EQ are still around.

1) Blizzard's new MMO will take the vast majority of WoW's subs. Out with the old, in with the new is the way for most casuals.

2) Even if SWToR, and possibly Aion, are successful, the best they'll do is make a dent in WoW's numbers. Not everyone is into the cutsey, overly Asian stylized look and feel of Aion, and who knows how Bioware will do with SWToR. It's all based on hopes and the company's ability to deliver quality games...thus far.

So, we'll have to wait and see how it develops. Time, Blizzard's new MMO, and possibly some of these new MMOs, in combination, could be enough to topple WoW - but never "kill" it.

Read this whole article, they seem to think this is the only game that could challenge wow,,,,oh yeah and there is crafting in TOR

Originally posted by tillamook

Originally posted by Comnitus

Originally posted by Vrazule

Before WoW, there was EQ and before that was UO.  Top dogs topple in their time.  WoW's days are numbered, it's just the nature of the beast.  If SWTOR is the one to do it, great, if not, it will still likely be a very fun game.  I certainly have liked all of Bioware's games so far.  If not SWTOR, then some other game will beat the crap out of WoW and  with no warning.

The idea that one game is going to "kill" WoW is ridiculous. I don't understand why everyone expects, or hopes, for the newest game to "kill" the 800-pound gorilla. Sure, you all may be sick and tired of WoW and the "clones" it has spawned, but only a combination of things are going to "kill" it. It will never die; games like UO and EQ are still around.

1) Blizzard's new MMO will take the vast majority of WoW's subs. Out with the old, in with the new is the way for most casuals.

2) Even if SWToR, and possibly Aion, are successful, the best they'll do is make a dent in WoW's numbers. Not everyone is into the cutsey, overly Asian stylized look and feel of Aion, and who knows how Bioware will do with SWToR. It's all based on hopes and the company's ability to deliver quality games...thus far.

So, we'll have to wait and see how it develops. Time, Blizzard's new MMO, and possibly some of these new MMOs, in combination, could be enough to topple WoW - but never "kill" it.

Read this whole article, they seem to think this is the only game that could challenge wow,,,,oh yeah and there is crafting in TOR

Oh, by all means, this game will challenge WoW, if it delivers as expected (although I think the hype level for this game could severely disappoint people, as with any game, so unfair judgments based on expectations that are too high are inevitable). The article was good at describing the demo and it definitely sounds like it's doing well right now. Still, my point stands. Best case scenario would be a more diverse market, where we had two or three MMOs that could compete on WoW's level, bringing in even more people to the genre (mostly casuals, much to the dismay of vets!) and more revenue, which will in turn motivate different companies to make new MMOs, etc., etc.

As far as the class descussion goes, I would think they would likely do something similar to what they did in the consol single player versions with jedi. Heck, WotC wrote it into their newer versions of the Paper and pencil versions because of its success. It only makes sense, that way you can have a multitude of jedis and people playing them and still have diveristy amongst the players. Likely they will have presige classes again as well. Now none of this is certain because none of it is substanciated but it is all logical as Bioware used the D20 system to build their game originally and likely will use similar mechanics again. The rules would be similar with the RPGA living campaigns which are the paper and pencil versions of MMO's.

As far as whether it succeeds or fails who knows, Bioware has delivered EVERY other time they have made a game, but MMO's are a whole new beast. All I can say is time will tell. Be patient and don't be a fanboi or a doom and gloom prophet.