it is currently mid 2009. Where did we go wrong bros?

its an odd number year, not much luck tbh

next year should be good, i hope

I think you inadvertently got it right when you said "where did we go wrong".

I put more blame for the state of mmo's on the players than the developers.  The communities are horrible, they're full of elitist bastards, whiners, and complainers.  The developers can't win, because no matter what choice they make, there will always be a group of people who aren't happy with it and will feel the need to constantly rant and rave about it, call it a fail, etc. 

Most players don't get into the lore of a game, so the overall atmosphere has a major impact.  But it's more than just the look and feel, although that plays a big part, but it's the community interactions that set the tone for things.

Originally posted by madeux

I think you inadvertently got it right when you said "where did we go wrong".

I put more blame for the state of mmo's on the players than the developers.  The communities are horrible, they're full of elitist bastards, whiners, and complainers.  The developers can't win, because no matter what choice they make, there will always be a group of people who aren't happy with it and will feel the need to constantly rant and rave about it, call it a fail, etc. 

Most players don't get into the lore of a game, so the overall atmosphere has a major impact.  But it's more than just the look and feel, although that plays a big part, but it's the community interactions that set the tone for things.

You are sculpted to be an "elitist bastard" in MMO. When everything in the game revolves around progression, loot, status and playtime, that's what happens. That's the game's fault, not the players.

Which MMO does not revolve around status, loot, levels and progression..none?..who's fault is that? Sure isn't mine.

Originally posted by Waterlily

Originally posted by madeux

I think you inadvertently got it right when you said "where did we go wrong".

I put more blame for the state of mmo's on the players than the developers.  The communities are horrible, they're full of elitist bastards, whiners, and complainers.  The developers can't win, because no matter what choice they make, there will always be a group of people who aren't happy with it and will feel the need to constantly rant and rave about it, call it a fail, etc. 

Most players don't get into the lore of a game, so the overall atmosphere has a major impact.  But it's more than just the look and feel, although that plays a big part, but it's the community interactions that set the tone for things.

 

You are sculpted to be an "elitist bastard" in MMO. When everything in the game revolves around progression, loot, status and playtime, that's what happens. That's the games fault, not the players.

Which MMO does not revolve around status, loot, levels and progression..who's fault is that? Sure isn't mine.

And with your very words you prove my point valid in a way that I never could have done without you.  For that, you have my thanks.

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by Waterlily

Originally posted by madeux

I think you inadvertently got it right when you said "where did we go wrong".

I put more blame for the state of mmo's on the players than the developers.  The communities are horrible, they're full of elitist bastards, whiners, and complainers.  The developers can't win, because no matter what choice they make, there will always be a group of people who aren't happy with it and will feel the need to constantly rant and rave about it, call it a fail, etc. 

Most players don't get into the lore of a game, so the overall atmosphere has a major impact.  But it's more than just the look and feel, although that plays a big part, but it's the community interactions that set the tone for things.

 

You are sculpted to be an "elitist bastard" in MMO. When everything in the game revolves around progression, loot, status and playtime, that's what happens. That's the games fault, not the players.

Which MMO does not revolve around status, loot, levels and progression..who's fault is that? Sure isn't mine.

 

And with your very words you prove my point valid in a way that I never could have done without you.  For that, you have my thanks.

Wow, way to miss her point, and act as if she flamed you to boot. Defensive much? She didnt prove your point, her point went right over your head it seems.

Originally posted by Waterlily

Originally posted by madeux

I think you inadvertently got it right when you said "where did we go wrong".

I put more blame for the state of mmo's on the players than the developers.  The communities are horrible, they're full of elitist bastards, whiners, and complainers.  The developers can't win, because no matter what choice they make, there will always be a group of people who aren't happy with it and will feel the need to constantly rant and rave about it, call it a fail, etc. 

Most players don't get into the lore of a game, so the overall atmosphere has a major impact.  But it's more than just the look and feel, although that plays a big part, but it's the community interactions that set the tone for things.

 

You are sculpted to be an "elitist bastard" in MMO. When everything in the game revolves around progression, loot, status and playtime, that's what happens. That's the game's fault, not the players.

Which MMO does not revolve around status, loot, levels and progression..all?..who's fault is that? Sure isn't mine.

Yahtzee!  You got it, the developers are at fault.  They build the games that they feel will draw the most players, however in doing so they removed/omitted many of the features we long time game players used to enjoy.

Everythnig comes around however, and one day we'll see games with "new", "innovative" features like ..... intricate crafting, player housing and persisent worlds.

At least, i have to hope.

i agree, i have been testing many games in beta and have not been impressed.  Here are some of my first takes.

1) Aion: played to lvl 15 and the only thing i was impressed by was that you can glide around.

2) warrior epic: horrible repetitive instance runs.

3) jade dynasty: a game i don't even have to play i can just bot the whole time and the pots are radiculous.

4) runs of magic: way to cash shop dependant.

5) fallen earth: there was nothing to it besides shooting up mobs.

6) the chronicles of spellborn: graphics are horrible and the new system of aim and shoot is a good idea but it needs a lot of work.  Also i felt like quests were very boring.

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by Waterlily

Originally posted by madeux

I think you inadvertently got it right when you said "where did we go wrong".

I put more blame for the state of mmo's on the players than the developers.  The communities are horrible, they're full of elitist bastards, whiners, and complainers.  The developers can't win, because no matter what choice they make, there will always be a group of people who aren't happy with it and will feel the need to constantly rant and rave about it, call it a fail, etc. 

Most players don't get into the lore of a game, so the overall atmosphere has a major impact.  But it's more than just the look and feel, although that plays a big part, but it's the community interactions that set the tone for things.

 

You are sculpted to be an "elitist bastard" in MMO. When everything in the game revolves around progression, loot, status and playtime, that's what happens. That's the games fault, not the players.

Which MMO does not revolve around status, loot, levels and progression..who's fault is that? Sure isn't mine.

 

And with your very words you prove my point valid in a way that I never could have done without you.  For that, you have my thanks.

 

Wow, way to miss her point, and act as if she flamed you to boot. Defensive much? She didnt prove your point, her point went right over your head it seems.

Ok, you're right, I'm wrong.

Have a nice day.

/block

This genre is fine and getting better.  This is just another redudant doom and gloom post that seems to happen every week.

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by Waterlily

Originally posted by madeux

I think you inadvertently got it right when you said "where did we go wrong".

I put more blame for the state of mmo's on the players than the developers.  The communities are horrible, they're full of elitist bastards, whiners, and complainers.  The developers can't win, because no matter what choice they make, there will always be a group of people who aren't happy with it and will feel the need to constantly rant and rave about it, call it a fail, etc. 

Most players don't get into the lore of a game, so the overall atmosphere has a major impact.  But it's more than just the look and feel, although that plays a big part, but it's the community interactions that set the tone for things.

 

You are sculpted to be an "elitist bastard" in MMO. When everything in the game revolves around progression, loot, status and playtime, that's what happens. That's the games fault, not the players.

Which MMO does not revolve around status, loot, levels and progression..who's fault is that? Sure isn't mine.

 

And with your very words you prove my point valid in a way that I never could have done without you.  For that, you have my thanks.

 

Wow, way to miss her point, and act as if she flamed you to boot. Defensive much? She didnt prove your point, her point went right over your head it seems.

I would say that it's equal parts blame.  It takes 2 to tango after all.  Game devs put out something, then adjust to gamers requests.  It sort of like enabling a drug addict by saying, "Okay crystal meth might be too much for you, buddy... why don't you try pot instead?"
 

If anything the relationship between mmo industry and it's customer/target audience seem symbiotic at best.

All i could say is the economy and the asian grind saturation.. but to be honest i think we are just going to see the best of the mmo genre to come :D awesome games on the horizon

Originally posted by madeux

I think you inadvertently got it right when you said "where did we go wrong".

I put more blame for the state of mmo's on the players than the developers.  The communities are horrible, they're full of elitist bastards, whiners, and complainers.  The developers can't win, because no matter what choice they make, there will always be a group of people who aren't happy with it and will feel the need to constantly rant and rave about it, call it a fail, etc. 

Most players don't get into the lore of a game, so the overall atmosphere has a major impact.  But it's more than just the look and feel, although that plays a big part, but it's the community interactions that set the tone for things.

I agree with this to an extent but I think it goes slightly wrong.  Community being horrible is pretty much my big key here...

I really don't mind what most term as "elitist" becuase they are never doing anything in an MMO I would care about.  Whiner, complainers etc... I turn off general chat.  Or I apply a liberal application of /ignore.

The issue to me is how bad the community actually is "IN" game these days.  I'll use this as a personal example...

In 1997 when Ultima Online launched, it was open pvp with full looting.  You can imagine all the horrible things that went on... yet somehow.. I had the largest friends list of ANY mmo I ever played... was involved in all kinds of things.  It was in the end what I would probably term the best community *I* ever was around in an MMO... and all that with pvp and full loot.

Now in todays games... pvp or not.  I don't want to group with anyone because of how they act.  I have ignore lists longer than my old UO friends list.. because of how people act.  I often wonder how they manage to operate a computer, breath on their own etc..

I've actually in a way become an elitist bastard because why in the hell would I want to group with the average person I see in an MMO now... so yes to me that is a large reflection on the communities we have now.  Tho I do meet people who are fun to play with... seem to be great people etc... its now very rare as opposed to how common it used to be.

And before anyone says it... it has nothing to do with age.

In fact that spins me off into a different lane of thinking...

Back in the day hardware was pretty expensive.  If you were online and in an MMO it was because that was your hobby... your passion.  So you basicly had a bunch of people who really wanted to be there...

Then again I think you can say the same for developers.  I think it used to be more about passion... really wanting to make a game.  As opposed to "wanting to work in the gaming industry."  The people we have now as developers and the companies behind them... are no longer in the business of making games.  They are making games for business.

You do also have the aspect of the player base who is very vocal on message boards.  Regardless of what it was about....  and I think to some extent that developers decided people who left without saying anything... were represented by that large crying base.  I call it crying because... my belief is the large subscriber losses around the industry (most mmo's) are due to people leaving over changes made... As opposed to being a silent part of the outcry.

So as they change this or that... and a large batch of people leave.. saying nothing... no feedback and don't come back.  They decide they didn't listen to the forum enough... or move fast enough.. and the subs start to bleed as they listen and move faster.

Somehow they never click on the lightbulb... that these people leave because they didn't want the changes to begin with.

So the blame is on both sides... but to be honest the biggest thing that pisses me off currently in MMO's is other players.  I really wish there was a community standard that was actually enforced.  There are these wonderful things call Terms of Service and End User License Agreement.  Its really to bad they aren't enforced... then again if MMO developers clean up the community they are losing money.  So in the long run do they lose more money by letting the community go to crap.. or by keeping it clean?

*edited for a few annoying grammar related incidents...*

I'd also say one MMO that I tried 3 times since its launch in late 2008... the reason I hit cancel every time was due to lack of ToS/Eula enforcement... and I might have put up with it.. if I hadn't already watched the same crap in another game from the same company.  So you know which side of the "keep your game clean" fence I sit on.

Originally posted by Antarious

Originally posted by madeux

I think you inadvertently got it right when you said "where did we go wrong".

I put more blame for the state of mmo's on the players than the developers.  The communities are horrible, they're full of elitist bastards, whiners, and complainers.  The developers can't win, because no matter what choice they make, there will always be a group of people who aren't happy with it and will feel the need to constantly rant and rave about it, call it a fail, etc. 

Most players don't get into the lore of a game, so the overall atmosphere has a major impact.  But it's more than just the look and feel, although that plays a big part, but it's the community interactions that set the tone for things.

 

 

I agree with this to an extent but I think it goes slightly wrong.  Community being horrible is pretty much my big key here...

 

I really don't mind what most term as "elitist" becuase they are never doing anything in an MMO I would care about.  Whiner, complainers etc... I turn off general chat.  Or I apply a liberal application of /ignore.

 

The issue to me is how bad the community actually is "IN" game these days.  I'll use this as a personal example...

 

In 1997 when Ultima Online launched, it was open pvp with full looting.  You can imagine all the horrible things that went on... yet somehow.. I had the largest friends list of ANY mmo I ever played... was involved in all kinds of things.  It was in the end what I would probably term the best community *I* ever was around in an MMO... and all that with pvp and full loot.

 

Now in todays games... pvp or not.  I don't want to group with anyone because of how they act.  I have ignore lists longer than my old UO friends list.. because of how people act.  I often wonder how they manage to operate a computer, breath on their own etc..

 

I've actually in a way become an elitist bastard because why in the hell would I want to group with the average person I see in an MMO now... so yes to me that is a large reflection on the communities we have now.  Tho I do meet people who are fun to play with... seem to be great people etc... its now very rare as opposed to how common it used to be.

 

And before anyone says it... it has nothing to do with age.

 

In fact that spins me off into a different lane of thinking...

 

Back in the day hardware was pretty expensive.  If you were online and in an MMO it was because that was your hobby... your passion.  So you basicly had a bunch of people who really wanted to be there...

 

Then again I think you can say the same for developers.  I think it used to be more about passion... really wanting to make a game.  As opposed to "wanting to work in the gaming industry."  The people we have now as developers and the companies behind them... are no longer in the business of making games.  They are making games for business.

 

You do also have the aspect of the player base who is very vocal on message boards.  Regardless of what it was about....  and I think to some extent that developers decided people who left without saying anything... were represented by that large crying base.  I call it crying because... my belief is the large subscriber losses around the industry (most mmo's) are due to people leaving over changes made... As opposed to being a silent part of the outcry.

 

So as they change this or that... and a large batch of people leave.. saying nothing... no feedback and don't come back.  They decide they didn't listen to the forum enough... or move fast enough.. and the subs start to bleed as they listen and move faster.

 

Somehow they never click on the lightbulb... that these people leave because they didn't want the changes to begin with.

 

So the blame is on both sides... but to be honest the biggest thing that pisses me off currently in MMO's is other players.  I really wish there was a community standard that was actually enforced.  There are these wonderful things call Terms of Service and End User License Agreement.  Its really to bad they aren't enforced... then again if MMO developers clean up the community they are losing money.  So in the long run do they lose more money by letting the community go to crap.. or by keeping it clean?

 

*edited for a few annoying grammar related incidents...*

 

I'd also say one MMO that I tried 3 times since its launch in late 2008... the reason I hit cancel every time was due to lack of ToS/Eula enforcement... and I might have put up with it.. if I hadn't already watched the same crap in another game from the same company.  So you know which side of the "keep your game clean" fence I sit on.

             I have to agree, I play AOC and I have played others and the amount of inane chat is amazing, many of the people on global chat sound like complete fools and the saddest thing is they dont care,  they rarely play the game in fact I would call them chat griefers.  I find it really strange .

Originally posted by hidden1

I would say that it's equal parts blame.  It takes 2 to tango after all.  Game devs put out something, then adjust to gamers requests.  It sort of like enabling a drug addict by saying, "Okay crystal meth might be too much for you, buddy... why don't you try pot instead?"
 

If anything the relationship between mmo industry and it's customer/target audience seem symbiotic at best.

So you're saying the games would be good if we smoked pot, but not if we do crystal meth?

Antarious, I don't think you are an elitist, at least not in terms of what I consider to be an elitist.  Truth be told, I consider the word 'eltist' to be akin to an insult.  Those uber-players who have long since thrown themselves mindlessly into the game to reach the cap so they can then sit around and insult new players, bitch about noobs, and otherwise chat with other bad elitist about whose sword is better, or how that game sucks because of all the new players.

It sound to me that you are a dedicated player who just wants a good community and a good playing experience.  I am not trying to insult those who call themselves Elitist's by any means, unless one is guilty of the 'crimes' I listed above, but there are only so many terms in the english langauge and everyone defines those words based on their personal experiences.  So if you consider yourself an Eltist and are not guilty of said crimes, my apologies, if the opposite is true, go ahead and flame me because I don't care about your kind of playing or you as players.

And I agree with you about the community of most games, the simple fact is the market is flooded with cheap computers, cheap computers mean the masses have the technology and the masses contain a large portion of @ssholes, pricks, and haters.  So of course, a great mass of those mindset are going to go online to spread their unreasoning rage of the real world in an online one.  It's sad really, but unless devs and Gms were to take some kind of massive effort to expel people from the game to create a good society, there isn't much to be done besides /ignore.  And then there is a chance such games would fold for a lack of money.

Originally posted by Shiva_Shadow

Antarious, I don't think you are an elitist, at least not in terms of what I consider to be an elitist.  Truth be told, I consider the word 'eltist' to be akin to an insult.  Those uber-players who have long since thrown themselves mindlessly into the game to reach the cap so they can then sit around and insult new players, bitch about noobs, and otherwise chat with other bad elitist about whose sword is better, or how that game sucks because of all the new players.

It sound to me that you are a dedicated player who just wants a good community and a good playing experience.  I am not trying to insult those who call themselves Elitist's by any means, unless one is guilty of the 'crimes' I listed above, but there are only so many terms in the english langauge and everyone defines those words based on their personal experiences.  So if you consider yourself an Eltist and are not guilty of said crimes, my apologies, if the opposite is true, go ahead and flame me because I don't care about your kind of playing or you as players.

And I agree with you about the community of most games, the simple fact is the market is flooded with cheap computers, cheap computers mean the masses have the technology and the masses contain a large portion of @ssholes, pricks, and haters.  So of course, a great mass of those mindset are going to go online to spread their unreasoning rage of the real world in an online one.  It's sad really, but unless devs and Gms were to take some kind of massive effort to expel people from the game to create a good society, there isn't much to be done besides /ignore.  And then there is a chance such games would fold for a lack of money.

This is one of if not the most intelligent posts ive seen on this sight.

Originally posted by Waterlily

Originally posted by madeux

I think you inadvertently got it right when you said "where did we go wrong".

I put more blame for the state of mmo's on the players than the developers.  The communities are horrible, they're full of elitist bastards, whiners, and complainers.  The developers can't win, because no matter what choice they make, there will always be a group of people who aren't happy with it and will feel the need to constantly rant and rave about it, call it a fail, etc. 

Most players don't get into the lore of a game, so the overall atmosphere has a major impact.  But it's more than just the look and feel, although that plays a big part, but it's the community interactions that set the tone for things.

 

You are sculpted to be an "elitist bastard" in MMO. When everything in the game revolves around progression, loot, status and playtime, that's what happens. That's the game's fault, not the players.

Which MMO does not revolve around status, loot, levels and progression..none?..who's fault is that? Sure isn't mine.

The state MMORPG are in today is 100% players fault in my personal opinion which is NOT fact but pure a opinion in how I feel towards most changes with this genre, developers make what the players want, what many do not get is that WE (me and then some) are with today's standard a minority, where we use to be the majority in this genre.
 

Then came the masses, they didn't like to travel so instant travel came, to much looking for items, hold on lets place markers all over the maps so players do not really have to explore, crafting, common was the opinion of the masses, what happend next we all see that crafting is just a after thought if not even less then that.

Lets face it if people didn't complain about games like EQ, SWG, UO etc...etc, we still might be in the niche segment of gaming with what I believe to be better MMORPG that resambled a virtual world instead then the current crop of instant gradification online games. I am glad this genre has grown, but am sad that the original players are kinda being forgotten by the bigger company's.

Anyway I am glad I am from a era where gamers didn't persieve MMORPG as revolving around "loot, lvl's and progression, as back then there was SOOOOOOO much more then try to have a bigger E-peen.

Originally posted by TheHavok

This genre is fine and getting better.  This is just another redudant doom and gloom post that seems to happen every week.

actually you are in the minority,  the majority feeling is that mmorpg scene is stagnant. Many developers wasted their time copying, unsuccesfully, WoW. Lets see what happens in next 1-3 years, should be some new MMOs out with other things than gorcs,  elfs, magic etc. and different game mechanics as well, like Jumpgate for example.

MMO's are one of the genres to watch imo. Relative to the lifespan of console gaming, PC gaming has evolved rather quickly. Relative to other genres within the PC market, MMO's are AT LEAST keeping pace...We have a lot to look forward to I think.

Originally posted by hidden1

I would say that it's equal parts blame.  It takes 2 to tango after all.  Game devs put out something, then adjust to gamers requests.  It sort of like enabling a drug addict by saying, "Okay crystal meth might be too much for you, buddy... why don't you try pot instead?"
 

If anything the relationship between mmo industry and it's customer/target audience seem symbiotic at best.

Agreed.  It's an endless cycle.  Actually, I guess it's more of a downward spiral into total crap.  The MMO genre became mainstream by (most games, not all) being diluted into garbage that's playable by just about anyone.

Originally posted by TookyG

Originally posted by hidden1

I would say that it's equal parts blame.  It takes 2 to tango after all.  Game devs put out something, then adjust to gamers requests.  It sort of like enabling a drug addict by saying, "Okay crystal meth might be too much for you, buddy... why don't you try pot instead?"
 

If anything the relationship between mmo industry and it's customer/target audience seem symbiotic at best.

 

Agreed.  It's an endless cycle.  Actually, I guess it's more of a downward spiral into total crap.  The MMO genre became mainstream by (most games, not all) being diluted into garbage that's playable by just about anyone.

Hear, hear.

I'd try to place blame on this game or that game, or that part of the player population or the other, but it serves no one and it is not anything that hasn't been said a thousand times before.  The simple fact is, something is wrong and has been.. and until something changes complaints are the least productive thing to be done.

Originally posted by Cristina1

Originally posted by TheHavok

This genre is fine and getting better.  This is just another redudant doom and gloom post that seems to happen every week.

 

actually you are in the minority,  the majority feeling is that mmorpg scene is stagnant. Many developers wasted their time copying, unsuccesfully, WoW. Lets see what happens in next 1-3 years, should be some new MMOs out with other things than gorcs,  elfs, magic etc. and different game mechanics as well, like Jumpgate for example.

So you're speaking for the "majority"? If you're going by internet opinion then everything sucks no matter what it may be.

Its also very nearsighted to say that developers are wasting their time copying WoW. Each one of those games that you're probably referring to tried to add new ideas onto the WoW formula. They didn't just copy WoW any more than WoW copied EQ. They failed for their own reasons, not because they were too WoW-ish.

If a game like EQ was re-released today except with awesome graphics, people would come and complain about how awful it was. It doesn't have the features that we have come to expect from newer better games. The genre has come a long way since those days. Even the games that many of us consider failures have raised our expectations of what a MMOG should have.

The genre is getting more popular. The quality of the games being released is improving. We ARE seeing innovation even if it is happening in the least likely of places. So yes, the genre IS getting better. The only problem is that its not getting better fast enough for some people.

Originally posted by Aganazer

The genre is getting more popular. The quality of the games being released is improving. We ARE seeing innovation even if it is happening in the least likely of places. So yes, the genre IS getting better. The only problem is that its not getting better fast enough for some people.

"Better" is subjective.  I can completely understand why people want to play WoW or [insert game title here], because they like it and that's fine.  When the majority of games coming out cater to a specific group, and someone is in said group (I'm not saying you are Aganazer), I get why they might think the genre is getting better.  However, to those outside of said group, it's easy to see why they would think the genre is going downhill.

MMOs are not horrible today. If you do not enjoy them anymore, then stop. No one is stopping you, at all.