Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by qombi

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

I know analogies can be hard to follow or flawed, but try this one.

We are climbing a mountain.

We meet at the top of the mountain. There is no way in the Universe to get to the top, except to do it one step at a time, all the way up. Now, we look at each other, and we know we have both taken every step up the mountain. Do I care, or do you, if one of us got there quicker? Do I care if you got there in a week, and it took me 6 months? No. I know, that either way, you went through every encounter I did to get there regardless of the time taken (think of this as content).

So, in this case we don't measure by SPEED we measure by foot steps taken to reach the top. No matter how quickly I do it or how slowly you do it, or vice a versa, we know one thing, there's no way to avoid those footsteps, they have to be taken. This is want makes us equal, the amount of footsteps we have taken, NOT THE SPEED at which we take them.

Now, imagine there is a helicopter that can give you a lift up the side of the mountain if you feel like taking a break from climbing now and then.

We reach the top of the mountain. Did you take the same footsteps I did, or did you ride in the Helicopter? Did you ride part of the way, most of the way, only a little bit of the way? How can this be perceived as equal on any level?

RMT lets you skip content. P2P means you MUST do the content, no matter how fast or slow.

Thats' what we like about P2P instead of RMT, knowing everyone has to do the same content, no matter how fast or how slow.

Need to kill 1,000 mobs to get to level 5? There is no shortcut, you MUST kill 1,000 mobs. I don't care if you do it in one sitting of 8 hours, or 30 minutes a day, either way IT"S STILL 1,000 MOBS! 

With RMT, take an XP potion. Maybe you killed 900 Mobs, maybe 500, maybe only 100. Who knows?

 

Actually I can use that same analogy for an anti-RMT argument. If it is true like you said no one should care who gets to top the fastest only if we both get there, then why does it matter if you can't play as much as someone else? I mean you may just get to enjoy the game at a slower pace but you will get there.

The only arguments FOR RMT I have seen is because people seem to think buying items instead of playing the game is somehow giving them what the player who has played the game and gotten the items. It will never work like that. You can't buy the experience of enjoying and playing the game to obtain the "trophies". That is all the items are, you can't buy trophies as they are meant to represent an experience. All you buy by swiping your credit card is a virtual item with no value behind it. The only value you can find in a video game is enjoyment from playing it. Video games are meant to be played.

The simple thing to do is when you find a game that is unfun or you feel you do not have enough time to enjoy it how you would like to is to quit it. You can always find a game that you can actually PLAY and enjoy. That is what games are anyhow, fun leisure activities meant to be played and enjoyed. RMT skews this into something else. I am actually fine though with RMT games built from the beginning using that model, I consider that a gambling casino type game for people who enjoy that. That becomes a game for people who want to see if they can out do someone else in the real life money game.

To say though it is inevitable for all games ... I don't think so. Not all gamers want to play that type of real life game. A lot of folks like myself like to play video games for the enjoyment of playing and advancing. People also shouldn't label people who do not like RMT as someone who plays 24/7. They could be just like me who has a wife and children who doesn't play every day but when I play I get the satisfaction of obtaining all items in game. You start swiping credit cards in game for items, then you brought me out of the game world into the real life world which I do all day at work etc. I don't care for that in my leisure gaming time. If the MMO genre ever does become so greedy with dollar signs that they think they can force RMT on ALL MMO games then I will not be playing MMOs anymore, it is that simple. Like I said vote with your wallets. I don't support RMT. 

 

Items may be trophies for you, but for many people they are just tools. 

I don't enjoy earning the money to buy a hammer, though I might enjoy building something with that hammer.

Why do you insist on telling people how they should find enjoyment and where they should spend their money?  If I spend money on a virtual sword, I am not buying it as a trophy, I am buying it as a tool to help me enjoy the game.

So many of these anti RMT arguments are bordering on retarded.  I have not seen anyone advocating the purchase of some almighty trophy, or even a maxed out character.  They are simply talking about purchasing tools that will let them get to the enjoyable parts of the game fast... rather than grind for hours and hours to get a weapon, I spend a couple bucks, get my weapon, and then get to what I consider to be fun.

If grinding for hours to buy a weapon is enjoyable for you, then by all means I suggest you do it.  Just don't expect me to want to do the same.

 

So you wouldn't have a problem with some one spending say...and extra 100 dollers and being a level 70? (or 80, 90 whatever)...all geared out? It would only be fair. that way they could get right into the action and "start building with there hammers"

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

I know analogies can be hard to follow or flawed, but try this one.

We are climbing a mountain.

We meet at the top of the mountain. There is no way in the Universe to get to the top, except to do it one step at a time, all the way up. Now, we look at each other, and we know we have both taken every step up the mountain. Do I care, or do you, if one of us got there quicker? Do I care if you got there in a week, and it took me 6 months? No. I know, that either way, you went through every encounter I did to get there regardless of the time taken (think of this as content).

So, in this case we don't measure by SPEED we measure by foot steps taken to reach the top. No matter how quickly I do it or how slowly you do it, or vice a versa, we know one thing, there's no way to avoid those footsteps, they have to be taken. This is want makes us equal, the amount of footsteps we have taken, NOT THE SPEED at which we take them.

Now, imagine there is a helicopter that can give you a lift up the side of the mountain if you feel like taking a break from climbing now and then.

We reach the top of the mountain. Did you take the same footsteps I did, or did you ride in the Helicopter? Did you ride part of the way, most of the way, only a little bit of the way? How can this be perceived as equal on any level?

RMT lets you skip content. P2P means you MUST do the content, no matter how fast or slow.

Thats' what we like about P2P instead of RMT, knowing everyone has to do the same content, no matter how fast or how slow.

Need to kill 1,000 mobs to get to level 5? There is no shortcut, you MUST kill 1,000 mobs. I don't care if you do it in one sitting of 8 hours, or 30 minutes a day, either way IT"S STILL 1,000 MOBS! 

With RMT, take an XP potion. Maybe you killed 900 Mobs, maybe 500, maybe only 100. Who knows?

While you are playing the game or climbing the mountain, do you enjoy the act itself, or do you enjoy forcing everyone to do it the way you do?

And, why do you care if he climbs or use the helicopter?  If he use the helicopter, will it ruin your slow climbing?  Will the path collapse, or ... ?

I smell envy.  Nothing more.

Originally posted by Zlayer77

Originally posted by Abrahmm

A game is a game for a reason. Everything I can achieve, get, create, and destroy should be done by playing the game. Swiping a credit card is not playing the game, it is skipping the game. I think it's terrible if key things in the game are available for real life money, and I think it is even worst if necessary things are ONLY available for real life money. If this genre is heading down the road of RMT, it will be a genre without me.

 

Quoted for the truth. Im happy not everyoen has gone and lost thiere minds on theses boards. There are still some sane people left

Quoted for total nonsense.

A game is a game to whoever wants to play it the way s/he likes.  You play it your way and stop telling us how to play our game.  You have told us your views about how a game is to you, no CC, no RMT.  OK, your view taken, that is your view.  Not a truth.  There is no truth in this issue.

If you want to leave games with RMT, fine.  That means 1 less out of millions of gamers.  No big deal.

I already stated my view long ago.  RMT from developers are acceptable to me, whether I will play that game or any game at all depends on the gameplay.  RMT is one of the factors under consideration when assessing a game, not the only.  A crap game like DF without RMT is still a crap game.  A good game like Eve, with its unique form of payment, or the extra bells and whistles from WoW using RMT (character/server transfer/rename) does not diminish the gameplay of EvE or WoW.

RMT from illegal gold farmers are not acceptable to me.

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by qombi

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

I know analogies can be hard to follow or flawed, but try this one.

We are climbing a mountain.

We meet at the top of the mountain. There is no way in the Universe to get to the top, except to do it one step at a time, all the way up. Now, we look at each other, and we know we have both taken every step up the mountain. Do I care, or do you, if one of us got there quicker? Do I care if you got there in a week, and it took me 6 months? No. I know, that either way, you went through every encounter I did to get there regardless of the time taken (think of this as content).

So, in this case we don't measure by SPEED we measure by foot steps taken to reach the top. No matter how quickly I do it or how slowly you do it, or vice a versa, we know one thing, there's no way to avoid those footsteps, they have to be taken. This is want makes us equal, the amount of footsteps we have taken, NOT THE SPEED at which we take them.

Now, imagine there is a helicopter that can give you a lift up the side of the mountain if you feel like taking a break from climbing now and then.

We reach the top of the mountain. Did you take the same footsteps I did, or did you ride in the Helicopter? Did you ride part of the way, most of the way, only a little bit of the way? How can this be perceived as equal on any level?

RMT lets you skip content. P2P means you MUST do the content, no matter how fast or slow.

Thats' what we like about P2P instead of RMT, knowing everyone has to do the same content, no matter how fast or how slow.

Need to kill 1,000 mobs to get to level 5? There is no shortcut, you MUST kill 1,000 mobs. I don't care if you do it in one sitting of 8 hours, or 30 minutes a day, either way IT"S STILL 1,000 MOBS! 

With RMT, take an XP potion. Maybe you killed 900 Mobs, maybe 500, maybe only 100. Who knows?

 

Actually I can use that same analogy for an anti-RMT argument. If it is true like you said no one should care who gets to top the fastest only if we both get there, then why does it matter if you can't play as much as someone else? I mean you may just get to enjoy the game at a slower pace but you will get there.

The only arguments FOR RMT I have seen is because people seem to think buying items instead of playing the game is somehow giving them what the player who has played the game and gotten the items. It will never work like that. You can't buy the experience of enjoying and playing the game to obtain the "trophies". That is all the items are, you can't buy trophies as they are meant to represent an experience. All you buy by swiping your credit card is a virtual item with no value behind it. The only value you can find in a video game is enjoyment from playing it. Video games are meant to be played.

The simple thing to do is when you find a game that is unfun or you feel you do not have enough time to enjoy it how you would like to is to quit it. You can always find a game that you can actually PLAY and enjoy. That is what games are anyhow, fun leisure activities meant to be played and enjoyed. RMT skews this into something else. I am actually fine though with RMT games built from the beginning using that model, I consider that a gambling casino type game for people who enjoy that. That becomes a game for people who want to see if they can out do someone else in the real life money game.

To say though it is inevitable for all games ... I don't think so. Not all gamers want to play that type of real life game. A lot of folks like myself like to play video games for the enjoyment of playing and advancing. People also shouldn't label people who do not like RMT as someone who plays 24/7. They could be just like me who has a wife and children who doesn't play every day but when I play I get the satisfaction of obtaining all items in game. You start swiping credit cards in game for items, then you brought me out of the game world into the real life world which I do all day at work etc. I don't care for that in my leisure gaming time. If the MMO genre ever does become so greedy with dollar signs that they think they can force RMT on ALL MMO games then I will not be playing MMOs anymore, it is that simple. Like I said vote with your wallets. I don't support RMT. 

 

Items may be trophies for you, but for many people they are just tools. 

I don't enjoy earning the money to buy a hammer, though I might enjoy building something with that hammer.

Why do you insist on telling people how they should find enjoyment and where they should spend their money?  If I spend money on a virtual sword, I am not buying it as a trophy, I am buying it as a tool to help me enjoy the game.

So many of these anti RMT arguments are bordering on retarded.  I have not seen anyone advocating the purchase of some almighty trophy, or even a maxed out character.  They are simply talking about purchasing tools that will let them get to the enjoyable parts of the game fast... rather than grind for hours and hours to get a weapon, I spend a couple bucks, get my weapon, and then get to what I consider to be fun.

If grinding for hours to buy a weapon is enjoyable for you, then by all means I suggest you do it.  Just don't expect me to want to do the same.

 

 

So you wouldn't have a problem with some one spending say...and extra 100 dollers and being a level 70? (or 80, 90 whatever)...all geared out? It would only be fair. that way they could get right into the action and "start building with there hammers"

 

 

While I wouldn't do it, I'd be just fine with it.  When I'm doing pvp, I have no way of knowing how that person got their toon, if they earned it or bought it.  Makes no difference to me.  Besides, if they bought it, chances are i'll just own them easier.

Either way, I'm still playing the way I want to play, and I'm having fun.

Originally posted by Scot

What I can’t wait for is when they introduce RMP to solo offline games! Then I can insert my DVD, start the game and use the cash shop to take me to the last scene! Wow aren’t I clever! :)

You do not need that.  There are always trainer programs or memory editors that can fix it.

Fact is, it depends on what you want from a game.  For a game like chess (against the computer), does it make sense just changing the board and winning it on a snap?

Originally posted by madeux

 

So you wouldn't have a problem with some one spending say...and extra 100 dollers and being a level 70? (or 80, 90 whatever)...all geared out? It would only be fair. that way they could get right into the action and "start building with there hammers"

 

 

 

While I wouldn't do it, I'd be just fine with it.  When I'm doing pvp, I have no way of knowing how that person got their toon, if they earned it or bought it.  Makes no difference to me.  Besides, if they bought it, chances are i'll just own them easier.

Either way, I'm still playing the way I want to play, and I'm having fun.

Exactly.  It is the same as if I took over my friend's max level character and play.  I did not go thru the entire levelling, I just swapped alt with him.  So I am a criminal?

Why should I care whether another play gets his axe by money or grinding or just having it handed to him by his guild as he /follow afk in a raid?  So long as he chops up the mobs beating me up, I am alright with him.

Originally posted by Dewm

 

 

Main thing I know is that if it was just a matter of buying stuff to speed up the game a little....no biggie, but here is an example.

 

(most people have play'd WOW i'll use that)

I am level 30, spent the last 2 weeks getting there (i'm slow :P ) and I have done a ton of raids and havn't gotten that good of items, or whatever....and i'm out farming NPCs and out of no where another level 30 player comes and kills me because he was able to spend the 30 bucks for that twink item... fair? I think not.

Now...I think that people should have a choice on what they spend money on, or not. BUT when it starts effecting MY game play, that is where the problem is.

now I know some of you tards are like "well stop playing the game"....doh. thats like me saying "Don't like Obama? move to another country"....serously...get your head out of your @SS.

 

Now I can afford to spend money on games. monthly. or buying extra items. but I don't. why? well 1. because I think its a wast of money 2. I think it takes away from the gameplay. And yes your right....its my choice. but when MY gameplay is ruined and MY 15.99 is ruined by some kid who got 20$ from grandma......that is when I have a problem

So all it all. I think the RMT servers and the none RMT servers should exist. And quite honestly I think the non-RMT ones will be more populated.

 

 

Disclaimer: I really dont' like Obama, he is F'ing up this country...but it was an example.

I think in a way Dewm sums up how I feel about RMT.  As wow raiding has been discussed I will use that as my example.  I often pug and when I see someone with a certain level of gear I have expectations.  You're in Naxx gear, I assume you know the tactics.  Having good items means you have gone through the experiences needed to get them, which should have prepared you for later game experiences.  I attain some of my dungeon set, I get some fire res and I am ready for MC.  If I just buy gear its likely I have experienced nothing, and I may not know my class well, and am inexperienced with grouping.

Now, imagine you are pugging heroics and raids, you don't know if people have earned or bought gear.  I'm a patient gal, usually make all my pugs, I usually have a few people I have grouped with before, I don't mind taking people not fully epic, I don't mind explaining tactics.  I have met some great people through pugs.  But I do expect some max level gear, that you've done something.  If people pug and keep getting people who haven't earned their gear, and have no idea whats going on that directly effects the competent members enjoyment of the game.  That keeps happening less people pug, which hurts casual gamers more.

My main problem with RMT is simply that games are about skill, we get our skills from playing, so we can kill harder things.  I'm a healer, I have learned most about healing from pugs, and particularly healing when I had shit gear, when evrey second and every spell choice mattered.  And I think its unfair for people to buy their way past that stage of the game.

I do appreciate that some people have less time than others, continuining with the wow talk, there are sooo many casual guilds, soo many places online where you can look up raid/heroic whatever tactics.  You google your class you can find suggestions for fast gearing.  You make friends, even if you only run a few dungeons a week  you're experiencing the game, and getting better at it.

I am ok with people playing f2play games with the RMT.  I would just never myself.  I play mmos because firsltly I love to group, love to get my healing on, but also because I do have the time.  Others have said it, but you buy an mmo, you should know that its a time comitment to match hardcore players, but also know that there are a lot of casual people too :)

Sorry for spelling and gramatical errors

If the game involve money then it is not a game anymore, it's all about money. Just like Asustek motherboard, they are used their own company Network adapter on motherboard, but if you want to update the latest drivers such as Attansic L1 network driver, Intel ICH9 etc, then all the website redirected you to download a software names Driver Detective. But you have to buy the software to get updated.

The thing they can do it because you don't have many choice to buy a motherboard, but there will be too many games on the market, new company may try that since they won't lose anything but the older company might be hesitated to sell this kind of game.

If one day the game market are all full of these gambling games requires constantly spend money to keep the minimum entertainment then I may start reading a book or do something else. Because they changed the gaming into a money matter so you have to consider how you spend your money wisely to kill something, especially it is mainly killing time.

I think there are far too many F2P/RMP MMO’s on the market. And they need you, the subscription MMO player to make them viable. Hence we have a industry which is trying to persuade us to play MMO’s their RMP way. No thanks.

Originally posted by samelizabeth

Originally posted by Dewm

 

 

Main thing I know is that if it was just a matter of buying stuff to speed up the game a little....no biggie, but here is an example.

 

(most people have play'd WOW i'll use that)

I am level 30, spent the last 2 weeks getting there (i'm slow :P ) and I have done a ton of raids and havn't gotten that good of items, or whatever....and i'm out farming NPCs and out of no where another level 30 player comes and kills me because he was able to spend the 30 bucks for that twink item... fair? I think not.

Now...I think that people should have a choice on what they spend money on, or not. BUT when it starts effecting MY game play, that is where the problem is.

now I know some of you tards are like "well stop playing the game"....doh. thats like me saying "Don't like Obama? move to another country"....serously...get your head out of your @SS.

 

Now I can afford to spend money on games. monthly. or buying extra items. but I don't. why? well 1. because I think its a wast of money 2. I think it takes away from the gameplay. And yes your right....its my choice. but when MY gameplay is ruined and MY 15.99 is ruined by some kid who got 20$ from grandma......that is when I have a problem

So all it all. I think the RMT servers and the none RMT servers should exist. And quite honestly I think the non-RMT ones will be more populated.

 

 

Disclaimer: I really dont' like Obama, he is F'ing up this country...but it was an example.

 

I think in a way Dewm sums up how I feel about RMT.  As wow raiding has been discussed I will use that as my example.  I often pug and when I see someone with a certain level of gear I have expectations.  You're in Naxx gear, I assume you know the tactics.  Having good items means you have gone through the experiences needed to get them, which should have prepared you for later game experiences.  I attain some of my dungeon set, I get some fire res and I am ready for MC.  If I just buy gear its likely I have experienced nothing, and I may not know my class well, and am inexperienced with grouping.

 

Now, imagine you are pugging heroics and raids, you don't know if people have earned or bought gear.  I'm a patient gal, usually make all my pugs, I usually have a few people I have grouped with before, I don't mind taking people not fully epic, I don't mind explaining tactics.  I have met some great people through pugs.  But I do expect some max level gear, that you've done something.  If people pug and keep getting people who haven't earned their gear, and have no idea whats going on that directly effects the competent members enjoyment of the game.  That keeps happening less people pug, which hurts casual gamers more.

 

My main problem with RMT is simply that games are about skill, we get our skills from playing, so we can kill harder things.  I'm a healer, I have learned most about healing from pugs, and particularly healing when I had shit gear, when evrey second and every spell choice mattered.  And I think its unfair for people to buy their way past that stage of the game.

 

I do appreciate that some people have less time than others, continuining with the wow talk, there are sooo many casual guilds, soo many places online where you can look up raid/heroic whatever tactics.  You google your class you can find suggestions for fast gearing.  You make friends, even if you only run a few dungeons a week  you're experiencing the game, and getting better at it.

 

I am ok with people playing f2play games with the RMT.  I would just never myself.  I play mmos because firsltly I love to group, love to get my healing on, but also because I do have the time.  Others have said it, but you buy an mmo, you should know that its a time comitment to match hardcore players, but also know that there are a lot of casual people too :)

 

Sorry for spelling and gramatical errors

Some observations.

Your biggest gripe focus on PvP and twinking.  Well I don't PvP, but then with a lvl 80 WoW alt, it is just too easy to buy the 29 39 twink gear.  You earn 200g a day at lvl 80 without effort, how many 200 gold you need to gear up a twink?  If you do not have a maxed 80, then its another issue.  Anyone with a lvl 80 can twink out and beat you, RMT or not.  If you are talking about PvP at maxed level then forget it.  The best gear are almost never purchasable.  Right now the BiS gear that are craftable are not really available b/c no one has the recipe or runed orbs.  By the time they are available in serious supply, many of us have half or more ulduar 25 gear.  Why do I fear someone who can buy 1 piece of craftable or 2?  As for the non crafted BoE gear, not many are ground breaking and not matched by some average l200 gear from H dungeons.  Oh yeah the l213 EoV bracers, so that is one piece.  Give this arguement, may I ask, what does RMT do which is totally ground breaking to pvp in WoW?

In raids, gear check is NOT a way to test raid knowledge.  Its a way to assess survivability.  If we want to check raid knowledge we ask him to link the achievement.  On the other hand, we usually raid with people we know, and for people who are skilled (with an prior main), he will do well in a weaker geared alt, so long as he passed minimum gear check and hence survivability.  The best player in all green won't last one AoE, no matter how godly.  The AoE damage >> his max health.  Good bye.

As for the argument about skill, a player with no clue on PvP but all geared out need not win.  Try to beat a stupid hunter in full T8.5 but no idea about hit box and dead zone, he can't even hit me, once I got rid of his pet.  Gear matters a lot in WoW, a bit too much indeed, but there is still scope for skill and knowledge to set in, and in WGs, its zerg vs zerg.  Your super L236 sword does not kill all of us in 1 swipe.

Originally posted by Orthedos

Originally posted by samelizabeth

Originally posted by Dewm

 

 

Main thing I know is that if it was just a matter of buying stuff to speed up the game a little....no biggie, but here is an example.

 

(most people have play'd WOW i'll use that)

I am level 30, spent the last 2 weeks getting there (i'm slow :P ) and I have done a ton of raids and havn't gotten that good of items, or whatever....and i'm out farming NPCs and out of no where another level 30 player comes and kills me because he was able to spend the 30 bucks for that twink item... fair? I think not.

Now...I think that people should have a choice on what they spend money on, or not. BUT when it starts effecting MY game play, that is where the problem is.

now I know some of you tards are like "well stop playing the game"....doh. thats like me saying "Don't like Obama? move to another country"....serously...get your head out of your @SS.

 

Now I can afford to spend money on games. monthly. or buying extra items. but I don't. why? well 1. because I think its a wast of money 2. I think it takes away from the gameplay. And yes your right....its my choice. but when MY gameplay is ruined and MY 15.99 is ruined by some kid who got 20$ from grandma......that is when I have a problem

So all it all. I think the RMT servers and the none RMT servers should exist. And quite honestly I think the non-RMT ones will be more populated.

 

 

Disclaimer: I really dont' like Obama, he is F'ing up this country...but it was an example.

 

I think in a way Dewm sums up how I feel about RMT.  As wow raiding has been discussed I will use that as my example.  I often pug and when I see someone with a certain level of gear I have expectations.  You're in Naxx gear, I assume you know the tactics.  Having good items means you have gone through the experiences needed to get them, which should have prepared you for later game experiences.  I attain some of my dungeon set, I get some fire res and I am ready for MC.  If I just buy gear its likely I have experienced nothing, and I may not know my class well, and am inexperienced with grouping.

 

Now, imagine you are pugging heroics and raids, you don't know if people have earned or bought gear.  I'm a patient gal, usually make all my pugs, I usually have a few people I have grouped with before, I don't mind taking people not fully epic, I don't mind explaining tactics.  I have met some great people through pugs.  But I do expect some max level gear, that you've done something.  If people pug and keep getting people who haven't earned their gear, and have no idea whats going on that directly effects the competent members enjoyment of the game.  That keeps happening less people pug, which hurts casual gamers more.

 

My main problem with RMT is simply that games are about skill, we get our skills from playing, so we can kill harder things.  I'm a healer, I have learned most about healing from pugs, and particularly healing when I had shit gear, when evrey second and every spell choice mattered.  And I think its unfair for people to buy their way past that stage of the game.

 

I do appreciate that some people have less time than others, continuining with the wow talk, there are sooo many casual guilds, soo many places online where you can look up raid/heroic whatever tactics.  You google your class you can find suggestions for fast gearing.  You make friends, even if you only run a few dungeons a week  you're experiencing the game, and getting better at it.

 

I am ok with people playing f2play games with the RMT.  I would just never myself.  I play mmos because firsltly I love to group, love to get my healing on, but also because I do have the time.  Others have said it, but you buy an mmo, you should know that its a time comitment to match hardcore players, but also know that there are a lot of casual people too :)

 

Sorry for spelling and gramatical errors

Some observations.

Your biggest gripe focus on PvP and twinking.  Well I don't PvP, but then with a lvl 80 WoW alt, it is just too easy to buy the 29 39 twink gear.  You earn 200g a day at lvl 80 without effort, how many 200 gold you need to gear up a twink?  If you do not have a maxed 80, then its another issue.  Anyone with a lvl 80 can twink out and beat you, RMT or not.  If you are talking about PvP at maxed level then forget it.  The best gear are almost never purchasable.  Right now the BiS gear that are craftable are not really available b/c no one has the recipe or runed orbs.  By the time they are available in serious supply, many of us have half or more ulduar 25 gear.  Why do I fear someone who can buy 1 piece of craftable or 2?  As for the non crafted BoE gear, not many are ground breaking and not matched by some average l200 gear from H dungeons.  Oh yeah the l213 EoV bracers, so that is one piece.  Give this arguement, may I ask, what does RMT do which is totally ground breaking to pvp in WoW?

In raids, gear check is NOT a way to test raid knowledge.  Its a way to assess survivability.  If we want to check raid knowledge we ask him to link the achievement.  On the other hand, we usually raid with people we know, and for people who are skilled (with an prior main), he will do well in a weaker geared alt, so long as he passed minimum gear check and hence survivability.  The best player in all green won't last one AoE, no matter how godly.  The AoE damage >> his max health.  Good bye.

As for the argument about skill, a player with no clue on PvP but all geared out need not win.  Try to beat a stupid hunter in full T8.5 but no idea about hit box and dead zone, he can't even hit me, once I got rid of his pet.  Gear matters a lot in WoW, a bit too much indeed, but there is still scope for skill and knowledge to set in, and in WGs, its zerg vs zerg.  Your super L236 sword does not kill all of us in 1 swipe.

Well technicially I never mentioned pvp or twinking, my point was that people spend time doing dungeons learning their class as they collect gear.  If you could just buy the gear, you wouldn't need to run anything to get it, thus you get even more people walking around in epics with no skills because they have the cash to do so.  

The arguments being made in this post suggests that some people play games not to get to the reward (the process) but move to have the items faster to use them (the end result),  My argument was that I prefer to not have people be able to buy items, because I believe the process of gearing (as in to be ready for raids) teaches us to play the game.  And that because you get people walking around in said bought items, with no skills, that you end up pugging with it impacts everyone's game experience.  Indeed it makes people less likely to pug.

The relation to the post I first mentioned is that is has been argued that how one gets their things doesn't effect other gamers, when it does.  If many buy gold and ruin the economy, that effects those who wish to play properly.  Just as those who buy pvp boosts, or items to raid, or any gear in general can change the game for others.

Originally posted by samelizabeth

Originally posted by Orthedos

Originally posted by samelizabeth

Originally posted by Dewm

 

 

Main thing I know is that if it was just a matter of buying stuff to speed up the game a little....no biggie, but here is an example.

 

(most people have play'd WOW i'll use that)

I am level 30, spent the last 2 weeks getting there (i'm slow :P ) and I have done a ton of raids and havn't gotten that good of items, or whatever....and i'm out farming NPCs and out of no where another level 30 player comes and kills me because he was able to spend the 30 bucks for that twink item... fair? I think not.

Now...I think that people should have a choice on what they spend money on, or not. BUT when it starts effecting MY game play, that is where the problem is.

now I know some of you tards are like "well stop playing the game"....doh. thats like me saying "Don't like Obama? move to another country"....serously...get your head out of your @SS.

 

Now I can afford to spend money on games. monthly. or buying extra items. but I don't. why? well 1. because I think its a wast of money 2. I think it takes away from the gameplay. And yes your right....its my choice. but when MY gameplay is ruined and MY 15.99 is ruined by some kid who got 20$ from grandma......that is when I have a problem

So all it all. I think the RMT servers and the none RMT servers should exist. And quite honestly I think the non-RMT ones will be more populated.

 

 

Disclaimer: I really dont' like Obama, he is F'ing up this country...but it was an example.

 

I think in a way Dewm sums up how I feel about RMT.  As wow raiding has been discussed I will use that as my example.  I often pug and when I see someone with a certain level of gear I have expectations.  You're in Naxx gear, I assume you know the tactics.  Having good items means you have gone through the experiences needed to get them, which should have prepared you for later game experiences.  I attain some of my dungeon set, I get some fire res and I am ready for MC.  If I just buy gear its likely I have experienced nothing, and I may not know my class well, and am inexperienced with grouping.

 

Now, imagine you are pugging heroics and raids, you don't know if people have earned or bought gear.  I'm a patient gal, usually make all my pugs, I usually have a few people I have grouped with before, I don't mind taking people not fully epic, I don't mind explaining tactics.  I have met some great people through pugs.  But I do expect some max level gear, that you've done something.  If people pug and keep getting people who haven't earned their gear, and have no idea whats going on that directly effects the competent members enjoyment of the game.  That keeps happening less people pug, which hurts casual gamers more.

 

My main problem with RMT is simply that games are about skill, we get our skills from playing, so we can kill harder things.  I'm a healer, I have learned most about healing from pugs, and particularly healing when I had shit gear, when evrey second and every spell choice mattered.  And I think its unfair for people to buy their way past that stage of the game.

 

I do appreciate that some people have less time than others, continuining with the wow talk, there are sooo many casual guilds, soo many places online where you can look up raid/heroic whatever tactics.  You google your class you can find suggestions for fast gearing.  You make friends, even if you only run a few dungeons a week  you're experiencing the game, and getting better at it.

 

I am ok with people playing f2play games with the RMT.  I would just never myself.  I play mmos because firsltly I love to group, love to get my healing on, but also because I do have the time.  Others have said it, but you buy an mmo, you should know that its a time comitment to match hardcore players, but also know that there are a lot of casual people too :)

 

Sorry for spelling and gramatical errors

Some observations.

Your biggest gripe focus on PvP and twinking.  Well I don't PvP, but then with a lvl 80 WoW alt, it is just too easy to buy the 29 39 twink gear.  You earn 200g a day at lvl 80 without effort, how many 200 gold you need to gear up a twink?  If you do not have a maxed 80, then its another issue.  Anyone with a lvl 80 can twink out and beat you, RMT or not.  If you are talking about PvP at maxed level then forget it.  The best gear are almost never purchasable.  Right now the BiS gear that are craftable are not really available b/c no one has the recipe or runed orbs.  By the time they are available in serious supply, many of us have half or more ulduar 25 gear.  Why do I fear someone who can buy 1 piece of craftable or 2?  As for the non crafted BoE gear, not many are ground breaking and not matched by some average l200 gear from H dungeons.  Oh yeah the l213 EoV bracers, so that is one piece.  Give this arguement, may I ask, what does RMT do which is totally ground breaking to pvp in WoW?

In raids, gear check is NOT a way to test raid knowledge.  Its a way to assess survivability.  If we want to check raid knowledge we ask him to link the achievement.  On the other hand, we usually raid with people we know, and for people who are skilled (with an prior main), he will do well in a weaker geared alt, so long as he passed minimum gear check and hence survivability.  The best player in all green won't last one AoE, no matter how godly.  The AoE damage >> his max health.  Good bye.

As for the argument about skill, a player with no clue on PvP but all geared out need not win.  Try to beat a stupid hunter in full T8.5 but no idea about hit box and dead zone, he can't even hit me, once I got rid of his pet.  Gear matters a lot in WoW, a bit too much indeed, but there is still scope for skill and knowledge to set in, and in WGs, its zerg vs zerg.  Your super L236 sword does not kill all of us in 1 swipe.

 

Well technicially I never mentioned pvp or twinking, my point was that people spend time doing dungeons learning their class as they collect gear.  If you could just buy the gear, you wouldn't need to run anything to get it, thus you get even more people walking around in epics with no skills because they have the cash to do so.  

 

The arguments being made in this post suggests that some people play games not to get to the reward (the process) but move to have the items faster to use them (the end result),  My argument was that I prefer to not have people be able to buy items, because I believe the process of gearing (as in to be ready for raids) teaches us to play the game.  And that because you get people walking around in said bought items, with no skills, that you end up pugging with it impacts everyone's game experience.  Indeed it makes people less likely to pug.

 

The relation to the post I first mentioned is that is has been argued that how one gets their things doesn't effect other gamers, when it does.  If many buy gold and ruin the economy, that effects those who wish to play properly.  Just as those who buy pvp boosts, or items to raid, or any gear in general can change the game for others.

Mixed feelings about your idea.  How can you shut down RMT, well make all items bind on pickup.  Meaning no trade.  Now that is serious.  How can I craft, if I can only sell to myself?  Ok enchanting inscribing gems will live, but blacksmith? leatherwork? tailor (only sell bags?), oh dear we lost half of the crafting and will bring down almost the entire economy.

So long as there are BoEs (bind on equip), there is room for RMT.  You need to strike a balance.

WoW is a much better game, in that BoE really won't turn the tide of PvPs and hardly matters, as there are too many venues to get gold.  So many gold, I have nothing to spend my 70k gold on.  Nothing I need to spend on, that I cannot afford.

Your argument holds alot more waters with many F2P games, item mall horrid stories.  I never look at them, so I don't care.

---

Originally posted by LynxJSA

---

Originally posted by JB47394
That's an interesting view of the topic. Unfortunately, the fundamental idea behind RMT is that people care enough about some game change to pay money for it. If there are players who care, then there will be players who care and who don't have the money. They will feel at a disadvantage, feel slighted or feel that they aren't experiencing the whole game.

---

But isn't that more of a problem with a player palying a game they probably shouldn't be playing than a problem with RMT? If I'm not willing/able to spend money at a casino, I don't go to a casino. That doesn't make gambling for money bad and it definitely doesn't mean that others shouldn't be able to enjoy it if they can afford to or want to.

---

The casino analogy is confused. The equivalent in a casino is showing up and buying extra aces that you can use as you see fit. Despite the fact that casino games are all about the money, players don't circumvent the rules of the games by spending money. Players are expected to accept the cards that they are dealt by an independent dealer. They don't buy cards. In MMORPGs, players are expected to follow the rules of the game to advance their character. They don't buy those advancements.

But all that is an aside to the fundamental notion that if players are interested enough in something within the game to pay for it, then that something is clearly important to the game. There is no notion of a 'good' purchase because somebody's feathers are going to get ruffled as a result of the purchase. That's not good business, which is the ultimate goal of using these in-game purchases: good business.

Originally posted by Orthedos

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

I know analogies can be hard to follow or flawed, but try this one.

We are climbing a mountain.

We meet at the top of the mountain. There is no way in the Universe to get to the top, except to do it one step at a time, all the way up. Now, we look at each other, and we know we have both taken every step up the mountain. Do I care, or do you, if one of us got there quicker? Do I care if you got there in a week, and it took me 6 months? No. I know, that either way, you went through every encounter I did to get there regardless of the time taken (think of this as content).

So, in this case we don't measure by SPEED we measure by foot steps taken to reach the top. No matter how quickly I do it or how slowly you do it, or vice a versa, we know one thing, there's no way to avoid those footsteps, they have to be taken. This is want makes us equal, the amount of footsteps we have taken, NOT THE SPEED at which we take them.

Now, imagine there is a helicopter that can give you a lift up the side of the mountain if you feel like taking a break from climbing now and then.

We reach the top of the mountain. Did you take the same footsteps I did, or did you ride in the Helicopter? Did you ride part of the way, most of the way, only a little bit of the way? How can this be perceived as equal on any level?

RMT lets you skip content. P2P means you MUST do the content, no matter how fast or slow.

Thats' what we like about P2P instead of RMT, knowing everyone has to do the same content, no matter how fast or how slow.

Need to kill 1,000 mobs to get to level 5? There is no shortcut, you MUST kill 1,000 mobs. I don't care if you do it in one sitting of 8 hours, or 30 minutes a day, either way IT"S STILL 1,000 MOBS! 

With RMT, take an XP potion. Maybe you killed 900 Mobs, maybe 500, maybe only 100. Who knows?

 

While you are playing the game or climbing the mountain, do you enjoy the act itself, or do you enjoy forcing everyone to do it the way you do?

And, why do you care if he climbs or use the helicopter?  If he use the helicopter, will it ruin your slow climbing?  Will the path collapse, or ... ?

I smell envy.  Nothing more.

If he uses the Helicopter then I can use the Helicopter, and I will. That would defeat the whole point of journeying to somewhere that cannot be accessed by Helicopter.

Originally posted by Scot

I think there are far too many F2P/RMP MMO’s on the market. And they need you, the subscription MMO player to make them viable. Hence we have a industry which is trying to persuade us to play MMO’s their RMP way. No thanks.

I am getting this feeling too lately. 

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Orthedos

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

I know analogies can be hard to follow or flawed, but try this one.

We are climbing a mountain.

We meet at the top of the mountain. There is no way in the Universe to get to the top, except to do it one step at a time, all the way up. Now, we look at each other, and we know we have both taken every step up the mountain. Do I care, or do you, if one of us got there quicker? Do I care if you got there in a week, and it took me 6 months? No. I know, that either way, you went through every encounter I did to get there regardless of the time taken (think of this as content).

So, in this case we don't measure by SPEED we measure by foot steps taken to reach the top. No matter how quickly I do it or how slowly you do it, or vice a versa, we know one thing, there's no way to avoid those footsteps, they have to be taken. This is want makes us equal, the amount of footsteps we have taken, NOT THE SPEED at which we take them.

Now, imagine there is a helicopter that can give you a lift up the side of the mountain if you feel like taking a break from climbing now and then.

We reach the top of the mountain. Did you take the same footsteps I did, or did you ride in the Helicopter? Did you ride part of the way, most of the way, only a little bit of the way? How can this be perceived as equal on any level?

RMT lets you skip content. P2P means you MUST do the content, no matter how fast or slow.

Thats' what we like about P2P instead of RMT, knowing everyone has to do the same content, no matter how fast or how slow.

Need to kill 1,000 mobs to get to level 5? There is no shortcut, you MUST kill 1,000 mobs. I don't care if you do it in one sitting of 8 hours, or 30 minutes a day, either way IT"S STILL 1,000 MOBS! 

With RMT, take an XP potion. Maybe you killed 900 Mobs, maybe 500, maybe only 100. Who knows?

 

While you are playing the game or climbing the mountain, do you enjoy the act itself, or do you enjoy forcing everyone to do it the way you do?

And, why do you care if he climbs or use the helicopter?  If he use the helicopter, will it ruin your slow climbing?  Will the path collapse, or ... ?

I smell envy.  Nothing more.

 

If he uses the Helicopter then I can use the Helicopter, and I will. That would defeat the whole point of journeying to somewhere that cannot be accessed by Helicopter.

In real life (yes, a rough concept for many), if you want to get to a destination, you get to decide, based upon how much time you have compared to the money it would cost, how you wan to get there, which option works best for you.

If you have little time and lots of money, you take a jet.  You get on a plane, have a drink, take a nap, and wake up at your destination and your fun begins.

If you have more time, and less money, maybe you'll have to drive.   Even then you get to choose whether or not you want to drive straight through to get to your destination as fast as possible.  Or perhaps you'll want to take some side routes and visit some peculiar roadside attractions.

Maybe you have the money, and could fly if you wanted, but you decide you want to see the sights, so you decide to drive anyway, even though it's going to take you more time.

 And then we all end up at Disneyland, and hold hands, and sing happy songs, and there's no need for everyone to sit and argue about which was the best route to get there, who really earned their trip to Disneyland.  Those who drove don't have to get angry at those who flew.

Wow... it turns out that there are options, and choices, and all sorts of crazy ideas out there.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

I know analogies can be hard to follow or flawed, but try this one.

We are climbing a mountain.

We meet at the top of the mountain. There is no way in the Universe to get to the top, except to do it one step at a time, all the way up. Now, we look at each other, and we know we have both taken every step up the mountain. Do I care, or do you, if one of us got there quicker? Do I care if you got there in a week, and it took me 6 months? No. I know, that either way, you went through every encounter I did to get there regardless of the time taken (think of this as content).

So, in this case we don't measure by SPEED we measure by foot steps taken to reach the top. No matter how quickly I do it or how slowly you do it, or vice a versa, we know one thing, there's no way to avoid those footsteps, they have to be taken. This is want makes us equal, the amount of footsteps we have taken, NOT THE SPEED at which we take them.

Now, imagine there is a helicopter that can give you a lift up the side of the mountain if you feel like taking a break from climbing now and then.

We reach the top of the mountain. Did you take the same footsteps I did, or did you ride in the Helicopter? Did you ride part of the way, most of the way, only a little bit of the way? How can this be perceived as equal on any level?

RMT lets you skip content. P2P means you MUST do the content, no matter how fast or slow.

Thats' what we like about P2P instead of RMT, knowing everyone has to do the same content, no matter how fast or how slow.

Need to kill 1,000 mobs to get to level 5? There is no shortcut, you MUST kill 1,000 mobs. I don't care if you do it in one sitting of 8 hours, or 30 minutes a day, either way IT"S STILL 1,000 MOBS! 

With RMT, take an XP potion. Maybe you killed 900 Mobs, maybe 500, maybe only 100. Who knows?

You miss one point though.

A lot of the required content (like farming for gold) is repetitive. So arguably, one is reducing the repetition and not skipping the content. Let's take a thought example. Let say you have already run through Naxx 10 times and know the fights. Having someone run your character through 3 more times for the chance of the drops won't really detract from the fact that you have already gone through the Naxx content and that you know that fight.

Making gold is similar. Most people runs dailies to farm gold. How many of those dailies they haven't done 100 times?

You can't argue that because i run the same daily 50 times instead of 100 times, i do not know how to play my class. If you look at some of the WOW items, it requires a lot of grinding dailies. For example, fast flying mount costs ~$5000 gold. A daily pays roughly 13 gold. Let's say 20g (because of drops from the dailies), you need to do like 250 of those to get one item. That is 10 days of grinding if you can do 25 EACH day. I don't think it will be "skipping content" if someone chooses to do 15 days and buy the rest of the gold.

However, you *can* argue whether RMT is fair or not but that is a whole different debate.

Dear Madeux and Orthedos you two are the strongest suporters of RMT in this thread so I would like to heare WHY you think this modle is the best.. All I see now is you trying to shoot down all that are against it.

please tell us why you think RMT is a  good thing, the pros so to speak. Why should we pay IRL money to be the best in a virtual world...

come on we all know by now that you are Fanboys/employes of the RMT please tell us why we should spend our money getting gear/items (thine AIR) ingame???

Originally posted by Zlayer77

Dear Madeux and Orthedos you two are the strongest suporters of RMT in this thread so I would like to heare WHY you think this modle is the best.. All I see now is you trying to shoot down all that are against it.

please tell us why you think RMT is a good thing, the pros so to speak. Why should we pay IRL money to be the best in a virtual world...

come on we all know by now that you are Fanboys/emplpyess of the RMT please tell us why we should spend our money getting gear/items (thine AIR) ingame???

  If you want to see the pros, go read the previous posts, because we've already been through it all.

But don't bother.  You've already made up your mind, so what's the point.

And for the record, I do not work for RMT, and as I've never played a game that incorporates RMT, calling me a Fanboy is quite a stretch.  I simply see the numbers.  More people worldwide play games with RMT than those without.  It just makes sense to me.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Orthedos

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

I know analogies can be hard to follow or flawed, but try this one.

We are climbing a mountain.

We meet at the top of the mountain. There is no way in the Universe to get to the top, except to do it one step at a time, all the way up. Now, we look at each other, and we know we have both taken every step up the mountain. Do I care, or do you, if one of us got there quicker? Do I care if you got there in a week, and it took me 6 months? No. I know, that either way, you went through every encounter I did to get there regardless of the time taken (think of this as content).

So, in this case we don't measure by SPEED we measure by foot steps taken to reach the top. No matter how quickly I do it or how slowly you do it, or vice a versa, we know one thing, there's no way to avoid those footsteps, they have to be taken. This is want makes us equal, the amount of footsteps we have taken, NOT THE SPEED at which we take them.

Now, imagine there is a helicopter that can give you a lift up the side of the mountain if you feel like taking a break from climbing now and then.

We reach the top of the mountain. Did you take the same footsteps I did, or did you ride in the Helicopter? Did you ride part of the way, most of the way, only a little bit of the way? How can this be perceived as equal on any level?

RMT lets you skip content. P2P means you MUST do the content, no matter how fast or slow.

Thats' what we like about P2P instead of RMT, knowing everyone has to do the same content, no matter how fast or how slow.

Need to kill 1,000 mobs to get to level 5? There is no shortcut, you MUST kill 1,000 mobs. I don't care if you do it in one sitting of 8 hours, or 30 minutes a day, either way IT"S STILL 1,000 MOBS! 

With RMT, take an XP potion. Maybe you killed 900 Mobs, maybe 500, maybe only 100. Who knows?

 

While you are playing the game or climbing the mountain, do you enjoy the act itself, or do you enjoy forcing everyone to do it the way you do?

And, why do you care if he climbs or use the helicopter?  If he use the helicopter, will it ruin your slow climbing?  Will the path collapse, or ... ?

I smell envy.  Nothing more.

 

If he uses the Helicopter then I can use the Helicopter, and I will. That would defeat the whole point of journeying to somewhere that cannot be accessed by Helicopter.

That and what if, he used the helicopter to get to the top before me and then ganked me? fun? not really....

Trust me i've play'd a MMO where buying was a big part of it. and it sucked.

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by Zlayer77

Dear Madeux and Orthedos you two are the strongest suporters of RMT in this thread so I would like to heare WHY you think this modle is the best.. All I see now is you trying to shoot down all that are against it.

please tell us why you think RMT is a good thing, the pros so to speak. Why should we pay IRL money to be the best in a virtual world...

come on we all know by now that you are Fanboys/emplpyess of the RMT please tell us why we should spend our money getting gear/items (thine AIR) ingame???

  If you want to see the pros, go read the previous posts, because we've already been through it all.

But don't bother.  You've already made up your mind, so what's the point.

And for the record, I do not work for RMT, and as I've never played a game that incorporates RMT, calling me a Fanboy is quite a stretch.  I simply see the numbers.  More people worldwide play games with RMT than those without.  It just makes sense to me.

 

I whent thru the post Madux and I could not see any listing of why I as a consumer would benefit from the RMT modle that is why I asked

And im not suprised you gave me that kind of answer lets see if Orthedose gives me the same...

one of the best post in this thread was made by Inktomi its a Neutral take on it and I think he nailed a few points. And in the end it comes down to MONEY... 20k people spending 100$ a month is a lot of cash. This is the only real argument i can find why RMT is better then P2P. You can earn alot more money with less people paying.  A P2P game would be close to cancelation if they only had 20k subs... a free to play game though... 20k people could be the same as 100k in a P2P game. Money makes the world go round, and I whish you good luck with your lobbing Madeux

Originally posted by Inktomi

Woo boy this thread is hot! Big walls of texts, quotes and enough attitude to put Paris Hilton to shame.

I have to agree with OP and comments made along the way. Yes there is some terrible RMT and terrible games in general around the net. My relationship with the unistall button isn't as a stranger. And we have a choice if we will continue to play said game or not. Now on one hand in RMT, I can leave it there indefinately and if for some reason I go back I just have to patch it and WA-LA! I'm back in business. On the other hand, if I decide to not play said p2p game, I'll use LOTRO as an example; I am actually wasting the rest of the monthly subscription my $10 and if I go back I have to PAY for another subscription whether it be 1,3,6 or 12 months. They are expecting some money from me.

F2P already knows that there is a certain amount of people that will not pay a dime to play their game. They use something called the "89/10/1" rule, and to quote John Davison, co-founder of WhatTheyPlay.com, a Web site that helps parents navigate the many game choices for their kids.

This rule, Davison says, assumes that 89 percent of your audience is playing for free, 10 percent is paying for something and 1 percent is spending a lot of money, buying new clothes or convenience items for their avatars. - Courtesy MSNBC.com

And with Free Realms that has already hit the 2 million mark, 1% of 2mil is 20,000 and now your talking real money. RMT or what I call it, Pay As You Go is the new breed of online content that many favor and the P2P is in my eyes a lease payment due at the end of the month. I really never OWN anything, I just rent it for a certain amount of time.

This market is expandiing and getting more competitive, no one is settling for low quality and they don't have to. These companies are under pressure and already have a few points against them, they need to step up or the next expansion of games is going to hurt the bottom line which is money. These games are a business that doesn't run on good looks, charm and personality servers cost money and so does the manpower to keep them running.

I don't think RMT is inevitable, I feel that is going to be an evolution of an already established machine and stand as a separate entiity. It is going to stay, but it will stand apart from a larger part of the industry and will attract different players. We are all as different as the characters we play in these games.

It all comes down to choice.

Play safe,

~Ink
 

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

I know analogies can be hard to follow or flawed, but try this one.

We are climbing a mountain.

We meet at the top of the mountain. There is no way in the Universe to get to the top, except to do it one step at a time, all the way up. Now, we look at each other, and we know we have both taken every step up the mountain. Do I care, or do you, if one of us got there quicker? Do I care if you got there in a week, and it took me 6 months? No. I know, that either way, you went through every encounter I did to get there regardless of the time taken (think of this as content).

So, in this case we don't measure by SPEED we measure by foot steps taken to reach the top. No matter how quickly I do it or how slowly you do it, or vice a versa, we know one thing, there's no way to avoid those footsteps, they have to be taken. This is want makes us equal, the amount of footsteps we have taken, NOT THE SPEED at which we take them.

Now, imagine there is a helicopter that can give you a lift up the side of the mountain if you feel like taking a break from climbing now and then.

We reach the top of the mountain. Did you take the same footsteps I did, or did you ride in the Helicopter? Did you ride part of the way, most of the way, only a little bit of the way? How can this be perceived as equal on any level?

RMT lets you skip content. P2P means you MUST do the content, no matter how fast or slow.

Thats' what we like about P2P instead of RMT, knowing everyone has to do the same content, no matter how fast or how slow.

Need to kill 1,000 mobs to get to level 5? There is no shortcut, you MUST kill 1,000 mobs. I don't care if you do it in one sitting of 8 hours, or 30 minutes a day, either way IT"S STILL 1,000 MOBS! 

With RMT, take an XP potion. Maybe you killed 900 Mobs, maybe 500, maybe only 100. Who knows?

You miss one point though.

A lot of the required content (like farming for gold) is repetitive. So arguably, one is reducing the repetition and not skipping the content. Let's take a thought example. Let say you have already run through Naxx 10 times and know the fights. Having someone run your character through 3 more times for the chance of the drops won't really detract from the fact that you have already gone through the Naxx content and that you know that fight.

Making gold is similar. Most people runs dailies to farm gold. How many of those dailies they haven't done 100 times?

You can't argue that because i run the same daily 50 times instead of 100 times, i do not know how to play my class. If you look at some of the WOW items, it requires a lot of grinding dailies. For example, fast flying mount costs ~$5000 gold. A daily pays roughly 13 gold. Let's say 20g (because of drops from the dailies), you need to do like 250 of those to get one item. That is 10 days of grinding if you can do 25 EACH day. I don't think it will be "skipping content" if someone chooses to do 15 days and buy the rest of the gold.

However, you *can* argue whether RMT is fair or not but that is a whole different debate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The fact that the content is repetitive is immaterial to the point I was making.

The content is kill 1,000 mobs to reach level 5. Then I want to kill 1,000 mobs to reach level five, with no way around that process.

I don't care whether you know how to operate yoru character or not. I want a game that gives me a path to make my character stronger, and I do NOT want a way to cheat.

There is no way to let you cheat, and not let me cheat, which is why I don't play RMT games. In an RMT game, I can just buy my way around the content, which means the content is no longer fun for me, since I have the money to do that.

IMO, Yes, your example is skipping content, and buying your way around it.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 

The fact that the content is repetitive is immaterial to the point I was making.

The content is kill 1,000 mobs to reach level 5. Then I want to kill 1,000 mobs to reach level five, with no way around that process.

I don't care whether you know how to operate yoru character or not. I want a game that gives me a path to make my character stronger, and I do NOT want a way to cheat.

There is no way to let you cheat, and not let me cheat, which is why I don't play RMT games. In an RMT game, I can just buy my way around the content, which means the content is no longer fun for me, since I have the money to do that.

IMO, Yes, your example is skipping content, and buying your way around it.

Killing 1000 mobs is not content.  Having a quest, and having a mob to kill is content, having lots of quests and lots of different mobs can be considered lots of content (although if they are all kill quests you could use the argument this is still just one item of content).  The content is not multiplied because you have to do it 1000 times, it is still just one item of content.

A candy store that sells nothing but coffee crisp chocoloate bars does not have a lot of content, even if it is has a million coffee crisps it just has stock with one item content.  It's inventory will still read just one item:  coffee crisp amt: 1000000

As far as this goes, "There is no way to let you cheat, and not let me cheat, which is why I don't play RMT games. In an RMT game, I can just buy my way around the content, which means the content is no longer fun for me, since I have the money to do that. "

My god man, take some personal responsibility.  You could just stop yourself, you know... just not do it.

If you are doing something and deliberately doing something and you dont' like doing that thing, and yet you are doing it for entertainment purposes, even though you don't like it, and doing it will ruin the entertainment for you - you need a psychiatrist or maybe even a tough coach to give you some willpower.

Venge Sunsoar

Killing 1000 mobs is not content.  Having a quest, and having a mob to kill is content, having lots of quests and lots of different mobs can be considered lots of content (although if they are all kill quests you could use the argument this is still just one item of content).  The content is not multiplied because you have to do it 1000 times, it is still just one item of content.

I have to ask then, why support a game you feel this way about? The way you describe it, I would assume you think this is bad game design by the way you have described it and have decided this particular gameplay is worth paying for to skip. Yes it is still game content even if it is game content you dislike.  When I find games I do not like the way they designed the game, I quit them. I will not pay to play a game then skip parts of it buy swiping a credit card. I play games for leisure diversion activity.

I definitely will not vote a "yes" with my wallet for gameplay I think is bad design. I want more games created that I do enjoy.

Example 2 I play alot of chess, on a stopage clock would it be fair if I could pay to get more time then my opponent?

In an RMT situation, this would be like selling a god sword for real money (a great method to commit RMT suicide). In most RMT situations, the analogy should be:

"I play a lot of chess. On a stop-clock match would it be fair if I could pay to play with blue pieces (instead of black or white)?"

or

"I play a lot of chess. On a stop-clock match would it be fair if I could pay to have the match recorded for my personal viewage later?"

Some RMT shops only offer items that do not effect gameplay (although most don't). I'm assuming most people would be fine with that. What I don't see is how people are putting the hate on EXP potions... Imagine if WoW sold EXP potions... Would you really care?

Looking into different financial systems for games, interested in this whole post.