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If they don't offer PTP MMOs sometime in the near future, then I am pretty much done with this genre. I am no fan of RMT and neither are my family and friends. I don't think it matters much really, if the majority wants the RMT platform then it's the way things have to go I guess. We will just head back to the games that we initially played and just getout of the house more to socialize. :P
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RMT will never go away while developers keep making the same shortsighted game play design IE time sinks and grind sinks, some people like to enjoy the content of a game without it becoming a second job. The situation has also got worse because the organisations that began farming and selling game items cashed in and made a lot of money and this obviously has not gone unnoticed and the developers now want their slice of the pie. So instead of innovative game design the genre will be stuck with endless grinding because the devs wont want to change anything because they can cash in on the people who want to avoid as much of the moronic game play as possible. |
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Originally posted by catsaad Best way I can respond to this reply is please stamp the word "clueless" on your forehead. Trying to use Perfect World to support an argument of how well RMT works is just beyond ludicrous. Now I can easily use Perfect World as an prime example of why RMT does not work in MMO's. You cannot pvp or compete in the important Territory Wars in PW unless you devote significant resources to the item store. That is a known fact by anyone who has attempted either in game. With that significant fact we can boil down your post to saying you feel it is ok for only the rich players to dominate a game? |
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Originally posted by Ozmodan Best way I can respond to this reply is please stamp the word "clueless" on your forehead. Trying to use Perfect World to support an argument of how well RMT works is just beyond ludicrous. Now I can easily use Perfect World as an prime example of why RMT does not work in MMO's. You cannot pvp or compete in the important Territory Wars in PW unless you devote significant resources to the item store. That is a known fact by anyone who has attempted either in game. With that significant fact we can boil down your post to saying you feel it is ok for only the rich players to dominate a game? Why shouldn't they dominate the game? if you have a good reason other than personal jealousy it would be interesting to hear. |
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Originally posted by Garkan Easiest way to avoid gameplay of games you find to be unfun or too time consuming is to not play them. If you continue to play games that you find unfun or too time consuming then you ultimately support that playstyle therefore putting your voice in as a "yes" for more games like that. I am sure you judge any single player game on it's gameplay whether not it is fun. Do the same with your MMOs, if something is unfun don't play it. That is what I do. I don't play games that I do not have time for or that I find unfun to the point where I would want to pay money to skip the game I payed for in the first place. That would be illogical. |
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Originally posted by Ozmodan Best way I can respond to this reply is please stamp the word "clueless" on your forehead. Trying to use Perfect World to support an argument of how well RMT works is just beyond ludicrous. Now I can easily use Perfect World as an prime example of why RMT does not work in MMO's. You cannot pvp or compete in the important Territory Wars in PW unless you devote significant resources to the item store. That is a known fact by anyone who has attempted either in game. With that significant fact we can boil down your post to saying you feel it is ok for only the rich players to dominate a game?
or you know...
maybe you don''t care a white about PvP? |
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The most important reason to be against RMTs that Richard Aihoshi failed to address is that if RMT becomes accepted then development will inevitably slant towards that which drives more RMT sales.
It may start with an simple robe or coat that is aesthetic only but eventually it will be a special weapon you cannot get without paying extra. How about nerfs intended not for balance but to refresh RMT sales as players buy up whatever is the new en vogue gear. How about new content becoming harder and harder for non RMT players as a way of driving new revenue. Any way you slice it RMTs are corrupting, and it doesn't take much to see how it can and will change MMOs forever.
RMTs will corrupt the genre and, ultimately, kill it altogether. -------------------------------- |
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Originally posted by AgtSmith
And yet, more people play games with RMT's than those without RMT's. Interesting... |
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I am not so sure more people play F2P than P2P nor that you can really compare since one is free and one is pay. Linux is free but does that mean that eventually Windows or OSX will be free - the dynamics do not directly relate. TV shows have ads so does that mean movie goers would tolerate ads as well? Magazines and newspapers have ads so could books get away with ads amidst their pages? F2P with RMT is a different animal. That being said, if you look at those games you can easily see the degradation I am talking about. I suppose such things are forgivable with no monthly but if it spreads to P2P games it will not take long before the entire MMO genre collapses.
Heck, look to normal software. Remember the days when Software 9.0 or Program 2010 was about the developers improving the program enough to actually need to release a new version and not just a calender event intended to force people to re-up and fork over some more cash? With RMTs MMOs development will become about new ways to drive RMT revenue and not new ways to keep players entertained so they re-up - MMOs will degrade (more so than they may be now) into gear chases on par with the old arcade games that seemed to have little point to them other than to suck quarters. -------------------------------- |
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Show me your data where RMT have a greater population than P2P please.
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Reborn17
Novice Member
Joined: 9/17/07
"In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act." |
People should probably be made aware that public idea mediums are almost universally compromised by money or the hope for some type of gain from those who have power, making the "RMT is inevitable" argument an obvious social/psychological push towards getting people to accept these revenue streams that go against the very essence of video gaming and fair play, moreso when combining them with a subscription. NO PLAYER would ever suggest such a thing, but these low-life industry turds have only one thing on their minds, how to get into your pants...pockets that is. This is why these arsehats have turned the mmo genre into a wasteland, "groupthunk" and corporatized to the gills. "The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion." -Edmund Burke Who will rise up for me against the evildoers? or who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity?" |
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I think it's the vocal minority that hate RMT, and that's exaggerated by most of the game publishers. Personally I've never had a problem with people buying items, cash or even characters. It doesn't affect my characters in the slightest. I've never come across the mythical gold farmers in WoW that steal all the leather, herbs and mining nodes either - they're always contested anyway by regular players. Gold selling spam... that really does get my goat which is why I wrote SpamMeNot for World of Warcraft. tbh though WoW does a poor job at policing chat in general. Kids can spam their "anal" and "dirge" stuff all day long and abuse the same people over the course of years with little punishment, if any. That's certainly the case on the EU realms. |
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Originally posted by Fraxture
It's both true and disingenuous at the same time. Most RMT games aren't F2P anywhere but in the West and in the East they don't have many subscription games due to cultural differences. "Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice." ~Greys Law |
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I'm one of those people that are fine with paying a monthly sub, but if it has an item mall I will avoid the game at al costs. |
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Originally posted by arcana666
But it does affect you, at least if it goes past selling of the most rudimentary asthetic only items. If weapons or other gear with consequential stats and/or benifits is sold then the developers have a revenue stream tied not to monthly subs and playing the game for enjoyment and they will necessarily be driven to create and develop items to maintain that revenue stream. Just think if all MMOs allowed a $5 character respect - how benificial does it now become if the DEVs want to consider swinging the NERF bat? Heck, why not - even if not called for because it will generate revenue from all the nuetered players paying to respec to usefullness. What about elite, or even average gear? Ever need a group to get something done? Well if you can just buy that new armor set instead of dealing with LFG for an hour or whatever, struggling through a tough instance or quest, or you just have limited time how many people will choose that easier route and then not be available for people wanting to play the game to get the item? And how long does anyone really think it would take for alpha classes or elite variants of common things normally unlocked or attained from in game accomplishment to be made available for sale? And once that happens why would the DEVs not start developing the in game process to such a difficult level as to try to force people to buy the things instead.
Simply put, you cannot play an MMO and not be affect by the rules and systems that affect how players get things - it is the very heart of an MMO and RMT will be a dagger in that heart. -------------------------------- |
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I pay a fee to go to school, spend an amount of time taking advantage of the tools and teachers to better my ability to earn a good grade and advance based on my effort; i am not handed a grade, but must spend the time and utilize the time and tools available to me in order to progress.
When I choose to spend an additional amount of money on a prepatory course for a certain subject or type of exam, other students aren't boycotting my school because I choose to take advantage of another opportunity to be better prepared for advancing myself. Nor is the additional opportunity, that I'm willing to pay for in order to be a better student, handing me something that will automatically advance me; it's a matter of how I apply myself and utilize that additional tool that assists me in my effort and might make the difference in a lower than expected final grade or higher than expected final grade.
I'm not personally turned off by RMT for the same reasons, as long as the tools that are provided dont amount to handing someone a new level just because they had additional purchase power. |
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Originally posted by Cik_Asalin
The school anology is a poor one but you ended well with teh above statement. I would argue that RMT has to do what you say there you would oppose to be succesful (maybe not buying levels but somehow buying power). If the RMT stuff is truly of now power value then it isn't goign to sell, or it won't sell widely. And once they have it in that you can buy harnless things like a haircut to get a new hairstlye how long before you can get a hairstyle that is not available any other way because that would obvious sell better? And then how long, if not at first, before selling har redoes that yielded new unique hair gives way to clothes as that is more money. And then same for armor as that is more money, then wepaons, and so on and so on and so on.
No developer is going to implement 'innocent' RMT and see the potential revenue go unearned because they are only selling useless items - it absolutely will lead to sellign of items, gear, XP, access, etc that does matter to everyone. And I don't think it takes any imagination to see game design be affected to encourage the buying of said items over the in game earning of them if the things are even available to be earned.
Seriously, how naive are people to no know this is enivatble if you let it in at all? I cannot help but think of the idiots back in the early 1900s here in the US that bought the argument that the income tax would never be raised above the 3% initially proposed when the 16th Amendment was being pushed. Once the system is in place, RMTs that is, games will lean to design that increases revenues meaning more and more important items and even unique items and eventually to gameplay design that necessitates such items. -------------------------------- |
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Originally posted by AgtSmith
The school anology is a poor one but you ended well with teh above statement. Its not, especially if, as I mentioned, the RMT scenario doesn't hand you a level. Its that simple when implemented properly. |
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Originally posted by AgtSmith
The school anology is a poor one but you ended well with teh above statement. I would argue that RMT has to do what you say there you would oppose to be succesful (maybe not buying levels but somehow buying power). If the RMT stuff is truly of now power value then it isn't goign to sell, or it won't sell widely. And once they have it in that you can buy harnless things like a haircut to get a new hairstlye how long before you can get a hairstyle that is not available any other way because that would obvious sell better? And then how long, if not at first, before selling har redoes that yielded new unique hair gives way to clothes as that is more money. And then same for armor as that is more money, then wepaons, and so on and so on and so on.
No developer is going to implement 'innocent' RMT and see the potential revenue go unearned because they are only selling useless items - it absolutely will lead to sellign of items, gear, XP, access, etc that does matter to everyone. And I don't think it takes any imagination to see game design be affected to encourage the buying of said items over the in game earning of them if the things are even available to be earned.
Seriously, how naive are people to no know this is enivatble if you let it in at all? I cannot help but think of the idiots back in the early 1900s here in the US that bought the argument that the income tax would never be raised above the 3% initially proposed when the 16th Amendment was being pushed. Once the system is in place, RMTs that is, games will lean to design that increases revenues meaning more and more important items and even unique items and eventually to gameplay design that necessitates such items.
Not to mention as well instead of what would have went into the game normally for everyone paying a sub fee, now will be added via the cash shop. |
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Originally posted by qombi
Why does it bother you that some people choose to pay for items off of a cash shop? It's not like I'm condoning third party services that just as often rip you off as deliver whatever service they've promised (gold, power-leveling, big tits, what-have-you). I think your issue is that you like to put a lot of game time into earning things for your avatar, whatever game you happen to be playing, and that the fact is that there are other people out there that think to themselves, "Gee, I sure don't have a lot of time and/or patience to earn level (fill in the blank) and I'd really like to start having some MMO fun. But luckily there's this nifty little cash shop that sells EXP gain potions and items that ensure my gear wont explode from trying to enchant it . Also I want cat ears." So, you notice this and because you feel a sense of accomplishment for earning your items through the tried and true method of grinding ad nauseum, you go off on a tanget like an old man yelling about 'work ethic'. The Fact Of The Matter is this: When you play a subscription game, you're paying for content you have to work to earn. When you use a RMT service provided by the company, you're getting what you pay for right away instead of having to grind like a mother in order to earn it. You end up spending roughly the same amount of money either way, and I'm not sure why you dislike people because your sense of fun is different than others.
You obviously can not understand my point so I will not explain it further. No, I do. In short, your against it and I'm for it. There are always varying opinions, so i hope you dont take offense. I dont often try to convince an apple that he can be a better orange; we need them both, |
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Originally posted by Cik_Asalin
Originally posted by qombi
This is just incredibly naive. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that people won't be spending real money on items that are not of value in gameplay (certainly not buying them as much as non gameplay valuable items). So not matter how it starts it will end up with developers selling power in game, be it items, gear, XP, levels, respecs, etc, etc, etc.. And once it gets past the level of them selling superficial or cosmetic items only it will easily drive development to the point that in making regular acquisition of such items (i.e. through playing) harder and harder and more and more time consuming in order to make the buying of said things more attractive.
The Fact Of The Matter is this: When you play a subscription game, you're paying for content you have to work to earn. When you use a RMT service provided by the company, you're getting what you pay for right away instead of having to grind like a mother in order to earn it. You end up spending roughly the same amount of money either way, and I'm not sure why you dislike people because your sense of fun is different than others.
You make the point against RMTs right there. MMOs, no matter how different, work on a common system of time or effort earning accomplishment or to say it more simply it is about risk verse reward. The risk is the time, the reward the XP or gear you get from that time spent. If you introduce a new mechanic that allows players to simply exchange real money for the rewards without any of the time spent then you invalidate the existing system, at least in part. It breaks the integrity (and I mean integrity in the structural sense) of the game. Furthermore, as the RMT system is implemented then what is to stop developers from doubling and tripling the time required to play to earn various things to increase the amount of people using RMT to get the items, if the RMT items are even available through no paid means? Increase the play to earn 'grind like a mother' (as you put it) requirements to increase people willing to just buy thigns RMT. You see this in expansions all the time, developers design in something to the expansion that is 'better' to a degree that not having the expansion gimps players even in non expansion content. They do it to drive sales of the expansion and in the same way RMT will supplant entertainment value as the driving force between design goals - build what will get more people buying RMT items because that means more money over people playing to earn items. -------------------------------- |
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Originally posted by AgtSmith
This is just incredibly naive. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that people won't be spending real money on items that are not of value in gameplay (certainly not buying them as much as non gameplay valuable items). So not matter how it starts it will end up with developers selling power in game, be it items, gear, XP, levels, respecs, etc, etc, etc.. And once it gets past the level of them selling superficial or cosmetic items only it will easily drive development to the point that in making regular acquisition of such items (i.e. through playing) harder and harder and more and more time consuming in order to make the buying of said things more attractive.
I assume you accidently quoted my post above. I was stating that RMT eventually will take away from content that you would normally get in a subscription based game because why would they give you what they would before for your subscription fee and expansion packs when they can make you pay piece by piece in a RMT item shop? I don't mind if RMT games that are F2P but I will not play them. What is disturbing is when Everquest adds an item shop, it is now going into subscription based games where the content should all be included with your sub fee. Also Everquest was never designed for that model. Any items should be obtained through gameplay. I I don't play games to swipe out the credit card and buy digital items, that isn't my idea of fun gameplay. I agree with your post as well. Well said. |
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WSIMike
 Elite Member
Joined: 3/09/04
Playing: Lineage 2, Dissidia FF |
Originally posted by Sovrath
Then would you both mind if they doubled the monthly sub? Or is that greed as well? The only way it shows greed is if their expenses are so low and their profits are so high that they don't "need" to add different revenue streams but choose to anyways. And then again, if they are a publiclly traded company then they have to maximize their profits for their stockholders. I'm sure both of you would be a bit miffed if your retirement funds or 401k's or whatever you have languished and didn't make any profit because the companies in your portfolio did just enough to stay afloat, keep people employed and invest a little in the prodcut and future developement. Over the course of years you would then wonder why you don't have enough to retire and what were the companies doing with your money. I have no problem with mixing them. But if it's the mixing of revenue types that you don't like then have them just raise the monthly fees (doesn't seem to have been raised by much in the last 5 years or so) until they can cover all costs and make the profit that they want/need. That works for me.
Your "raising the subscription fee" analogy doesn't exactly work,either, because you're still implying that somehow, suddenly, $15 a month isn't enough... and there's nothing to indicate that it isn't. If they're going to increase the amount of a subscription, they better damn well make sure the amount or quality of the game I'm paying for increases proportionally.
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WSIMike
Elite Member
Joined: 3/09/04
Playing: Lineage 2, Dissidia FF |
Originally posted by Cik_Asalin Its not, especially if, as I mentioned, the RMT scenario doesn't hand you a level. Its that simple when implemented properly.
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Exactly WSImike, if we where to put it back in his flawed school analogy then it would mean that in addition the normal class that you pay for with tuition and earn a degree from the have extra certifications that they issue (if you buy them) and companies prefer people with the degree plus certification so being a degree only person you are SOL. But again, comparing RMT in MMO to education is really just a bad analogy.
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