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5/29/09 3:17:47 PM#26
Originally posted by madeux
It's not about a lack fo self control. It's about making the challenge artificial, not real. Let's say someone wants a game that is difficult. You COULD play WoW naked, with no gear, and that would make it much more difficult. So if a person is asking for a more difficult game, would you say they shoujld be satisfied to play WoW naked, which would certainly make it more difficult, and if they do not do that, they lack self control? It's exactly the same thing. Yes I COULD group in a game that doesnt' require it, just like I COULD play WoW with no gear to make it harder. But that sounds retarded to me, maybe you would do it and think it was the same has a harder game, but I wouldn't.
So, when you're playing a game that has Easy, Medium, Hard, and God-Help-Me-This-Is-Impossible settings, do you only pick the Easy setting, just because it is there? I recall playing Fable in the arena, and getting bonuses for going in with no armor. Funny, having that option never upset me.
Perhaps this is an example you can understand. From my perspective, the "easy" mode is always on. It CANNOT be turned off. If there was a different server to go to with different rules, that would be turning off the easy mode. What you are saying, is I should play Fable on Easy mode, but then do stupid things to gimp myself so it will be like Hard mode.
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5/29/09 3:19:27 PM#27
Originally posted by madeux
It really depends on the item, the importance of the items and the other game mechanics. Some of it is simply envy. Some of it is that allowing people to buy the trappings of success cheapens success to an unacceptable level. I mean if anyone can buy it for a couple of bucks what's sweet about it? It's just every day crap. Do you think anyone would want to race in the Indianapolis 500 if you could buy Borg-Warner trophies at Wal-mart for $59.95? Part of the thrill is in doing something not everyone can or is willing to do. Yes time can be unbalancing in games where time sinks and grinding are prevalent but a certain amount of that is unavoidable in any game. All RMT is avoidable by design. "Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice." ~Greys Law |
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5/29/09 3:20:48 PM#28
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
So, when you're playing a game that has Easy, Medium, Hard, and God-Help-Me-This-Is-Impossible settings, do you only pick the Easy setting, just because it is there? I recall playing Fable in the arena, and getting bonuses for going in with no armor. Funny, having that option never upset me.
Perhaps this is an example you can understand. From my perspective, the "easy" mode is always on. It CANNOT be turned off. If there was a different server to go to with different rules, that would be turning off the easy mode. What you are saying, is I should play Fable on Easy mode, but then do stupid things to gimp myself so it will be like Hard mode.
Yup, that is obviously exactly what I am saying. Thank you for the brilliant summary. |
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5/29/09 3:23:32 PM#29
Originally posted by zymurgeist
It really depends on the item, the importance of the items and the other game mechanics. Some of it is simply envy. Some of it is that allowing people to buy the trappings of success cheapens success to an unacceptable level. I mean if anyone can buy it for a couple of bucks what's sweet about it? It's just every day crap. Do you think anyone would want to race in the Indianapolis 500 if you could buy Borg-Warner trophies at Wal-mart for $59.95? Part of the thrill is in doing something not everyone can or is willing to do. Yes time can be unbalancing in games where time sinks and grinding are prevalent but a certain amount of that is unavoidable in any game. All RMT is avoidable by design.
Whatever trophy they give you for winning the Indy 500, I could have an identical one built. I could buy it, and display it. In fact, some obnoxious race fan has probably done it. Does that take anything away from the person who actually wins it? If Bob gets joy from having it, and Ed gets his joy from earning it, can't we just let them both enjoy themselves? |
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5/29/09 3:30:05 PM#30
Originally posted by madeux
Your argument is flawed. If the trophy actually made his car go faster your comparison would make more sense. Gear and loot makes you stronger and makes you survive and kill faster. It's not just the prestige of getting it. That is secondary at best.
Look at it this way. Every race car had to use the exact same engine model. The winner gets to put in a stronge engine..that's the price. That would be a better comparison. Then imagine having that winning price system and somebody just going out and buying a more powerful engine then that system falls apart. People liking the winning price system will naturally get upset. |
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5/29/09 3:30:06 PM#31
Originally posted by madeux
So, when you're playing a game that has Easy, Medium, Hard, and God-Help-Me-This-Is-Impossible settings, do you only pick the Easy setting, just because it is there? I recall playing Fable in the arena, and getting bonuses for going in with no armor. Funny, having that option never upset me.
Perhaps this is an example you can understand. From my perspective, the "easy" mode is always on. It CANNOT be turned off. If there was a different server to go to with different rules, that would be turning off the easy mode. What you are saying, is I should play Fable on Easy mode, but then do stupid things to gimp myself so it will be like Hard mode.
Yup, that is obviously exactly what I am saying. Thank you for the brilliant summary.
It's pretty obvious. You can make faster progress solo. But you should group anyway (gimp yourself) and pretend it's a good grouping game. Why would anyone gimp themselves, and think that's the same as a challenging game where you don't have to gimp yourself? I don't want to gimp myself, that's retarded. Let's lower the basket in basketball, and make all the tall guys tie one hand behind their backs. It's exactly the same right? Uh, no, it isn't. That's the same as, let's make it solo friendly, but if you want to gimp yourself and group you can. That's the same as a good grouping game right? Uh, no, it isn't.
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5/29/09 3:34:48 PM#32
Originally posted by madeux
Whatever trophy they give you for winning the Indy 500, I could have an identical one built. I could buy it, and display it. In fact, some obnoxious race fan has probably done it. Does that take anything away from the person who actually wins it? If Bob gets joy from having it, and Ed gets his joy from earning it, can't we just let them both enjoy themselves?
Actually you can't. They'll confiscate it an everything else you own after you lose the court case from the 5,000 lawyers they'll put on your ass. It is a unique historical artifact. It literally cannot be bought at any price. Even the people who win the race never get ownership of it. That's what makes it so special. Even if you could buy it everyone would know you didn't earn it and that would make it worthless. The winners are a community of people who have accomplished something significant to them and millions ofothers. To try to buy your way in would make you a poser beneath contempt.
If Ed buying it cheapens Bob's joy of getting it no they can't both enjoy it. Let me put it this way. If everyone is special no one is.
"Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice." ~Greys Law |
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5/29/09 3:39:51 PM#33
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Whatever trophy they give you for winning the Indy 500, I could have an identical one built. I could buy it, and display it. In fact, some obnoxious race fan has probably done it. Does that take anything away from the person who actually wins it? If Bob gets joy from having it, and Ed gets his joy from earning it, can't we just let them both enjoy themselves?
Actually you can't. They'll confiscate it an everything else you own after you lose the court case from the 5,000 lawyers they'll put on your ass. It is a unique historical artifact. It literally cannot be bought at any price. Even the people who win the race never get ownership of it. That's what makes it so special. Even if you could buy it everyone would know you didn't earn it and that would make it worthless.
If Ed buying it cheapens Bob's joy of getting it no they can't both enjoy it. :Let me put it this way. If everyone is special no one is. Then perhaps Bob needs to make some personal decisions about where he is gaining his self worth. If he is always basing it on the actions of others, Bob will never be happy. Bob needs to learn to just take some satisfaction in a job well done. :) |
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5/29/09 3:41:06 PM#34
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Yup, that is obviously exactly what I am saying. Thank you for the brilliant summary. It's pretty obvious. You can make faster progress solo. But you should group anyway (gimp yourself) and pretend it's a good grouping game. Why would anyone gimp themselves, and think that's the same as a challenging game where you don't have to gimp yourself? I don't want to gimp myself, that's retarded. Let's lower the basket in basketball, and make all the tall guys tie one hand behind their backs. It's exactly the same right? Uh, no, it isn't. That's the same as, let's make it solo friendly, but if you want to gimp yourself and group you can. That's the same as a good grouping game right? Uh, no, it isn't. All I'm really getting out of this conversation is an aura of selfishness. Game developers, tailor your game to exactly what I want, but don't give anyone else what they want if it's different than what I want. It's a selfish and unrealistic stance to take. Most businesses are not going to cater to just one group if they don't think that group is large enough to give them the success they desire. There are a lot of leaps of logic above, including the "gimping" that are hard to make when speaking in generalities rather than about specific games. The bottom line is, if you don't like someone else having options that you personally don't want to choose, you really need to examine your motivations for playing. The game and/or the genre may just not be for you, and that's ok. |
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5/29/09 3:43:38 PM#35
Originally posted by madeux
Maybe it's Ed that needs to learn that rewards for any endeavor are not bought but earned. Satisfaction for a job well done is the cake. The rewards that job well done earns is is the icing.
Suppose we had an RMT gane where bought items were gold colored and earned items were silver with no other differences. Which do you imagine would be more desirble to players and earn greater respect? How much would you care to bet the RMT players wouldn't demand to be able to buy silver items too. "Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice." ~Greys Law |
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5/29/09 3:46:13 PM#36
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Whatever trophy they give you for winning the Indy 500, I could have an identical one built. I could buy it, and display it. In fact, some obnoxious race fan has probably done it. Does that take anything away from the person who actually wins it? If Bob gets joy from having it, and Ed gets his joy from earning it, can't we just let them both enjoy themselves?
Someone is obviously not a juris doctor. I've agreed with your posts before, Zymu, but this is just silly and wrong on so many counts.
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5/29/09 3:46:39 PM#37
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Maybe it's Ed that needs to learn that rewards for any endeavor are not bought but earned. Satisfaction for a job well done is the cake. The rewards that job well done earns is is the icing.
Maybe Bob should live his own life, and let Ed do the same. |
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LiquidWolf
 Novice Member
Joined: 4/18/07
Currently Playing: |
5/29/09 3:49:11 PM#38
Originally posted by ianubisi
This is the best statement right from the first page. Time = Money I'd say this is true for many markets... and is really only becoming an issue now as MMO's become a larger market. Time = Money but remember... money != experience |
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5/29/09 3:52:29 PM#39
Originally posted by bmdevine Someone is obviously not a juris doctor. I've agreed with your posts before, Zymu, but this is just silly and wrong on so many counts.
It's literally protected by law. You can look it up. It's trademarked, copywrited, and registered as a Indiana State and National treasure and God knows what else. You can't even publish a picture of it without permission. "Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice." ~Greys Law |
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5/29/09 3:54:28 PM#40
Originally posted by madeux
Maybe Bob should live his own life, and let Ed do the same.
Maybe human beings should stop being human? I don't think that will ever happen nor should it. "Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice." ~Greys Law |
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5/29/09 3:56:46 PM#41
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Maybe Bob should live his own life, and let Ed do the same.
Maybe human beings should stop being human? I don't think that will ever happen nor should it.
Yes, and they should never evaluate themselves and their faults, and they should certainly never try to better themselves. That can only lead to bad things. |
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5/29/09 3:58:50 PM#42
I don't understand what you get out of buying your way to the top in a video game. Isn't the idea of a game to actually play it? I really hope RMT doesn't turn MMORPG's into a collector hobby. Let's say I started a new game with RMT, I go out and buy a max level character with all the best items in the game. Now what? In most P2P PvE games that's the point I unsubscribe and move onto another game. "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." |
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5/29/09 4:00:47 PM#43
Originally posted by zymurgeist
It's literally protected by law. You can look it up. It's trademarked, copywrited, and registered as a Indiana State and National treasure and God knows what else. You can't even use a picture of it without permission. Use in what context? That's what you really need to know. It's copyright, by the way, and where the heck does the concept of a "national treasure" factor into discussion regarding a trophy? You're just making stuff up. Telling people to look up stuff you've made up is kind of silly, don't you think? That's something you ought to do before spouting it as a fact. |
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5/29/09 4:02:15 PM#44
Originally posted by madeux
Because removing the incentive for achievement so we can have universal equality of outcome guaranteed makes us better people. I remember an entire dysfunctional Empire built upon that utopian ideal. It began collapsing in 1985 and we're still dealing with the aftershocks. "Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice." ~Greys Law |
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5/29/09 4:07:26 PM#45
Originally posted by bmdevine
It's literally protected by law. You can look it up. It's trademarked, copywrited, and registered as a Indiana State and National treasure and God knows what else. You can't even use a picture of it without permission. Use in what context? That's what you really need to know. It's copyright, by the way, and where the heck does the concept of a "national treasure" factor into discussion regarding a trophy? You're just making stuff up. Telling people to look up stuff you've made up is kind of silly, don't you think? That's something you ought to do before spouting it as a fact.
Look it up, seriously. It has every protection under law the Statue of Liberty does and then some. You can't commercially use the words Borg-Warner Trophy without permission. Not the name not the likeness nothing. In nearly any context. Look up the legal protections accorded to National Treasures. "Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice." ~Greys Law |
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5/29/09 4:09:26 PM#46
Originally posted by zymurgeist Use in what context? That's what you really need to know. It's copyright, by the way, and where the heck does the concept of a "national treasure" factor into discussion regarding a trophy? You're just making stuff up. Telling people to look up stuff you've made up is kind of silly, don't you think? That's something you ought to do before spouting it as a fact.
Look it up, seriously. It has every protection under law the Statue of Liberty does and then some. You can't commercially use the words Borg-Warner Trophy without permission. Not the name not the likeness nothing. In nearly any context. Look up the legal protections accorded to National Treasures. Who said anything about commercial use? Read the first question I posted directly above. Sorry, but the discussion fails at this point. |
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5/29/09 4:12:24 PM#47
Originally posted by bmdevine Use in what context? That's what you really need to know. It's copyright, by the way, and where the heck does the concept of a "national treasure" factor into discussion regarding a trophy? You're just making stuff up. Telling people to look up stuff you've made up is kind of silly, don't you think? That's something you ought to do before spouting it as a fact.
Look it up, seriously. It has every protection under law the Statue of Liberty does and then some. You can't commercially use the words Borg-Warner Trophy without permission. Not the name not the likeness nothing. In nearly any context. Look up the legal protections accorded to National Treasures. Who said anything about commercial use? Read the first question I posted directly above. Sorry, but the discussion fails at this point.
You guys are straying further and further away from the original discussion just so you can win an argument. Why not take that argument to PMs?. I doubt anybody on the forums will read it and go..yeah that guy is right and play referee. Let's get this discussion back on topic instead of having it derailed by battling egos. |
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5/29/09 4:14:38 PM#48
Imo, if you dont have a huge amount of freetime, MMO's aren't for you anyways. At least I stopped playing when I got a new job and work at least 12h/day (like to read about some games when i come home tho).
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5/29/09 4:16:42 PM#49
Yes... but no. Yes, differences in time to play are un-balancing BUT there is a difference between imbalance due to the circumstances of life, and imbalance created, fostered and encouraged by the company that runs the game. For example, in a race, one runner is faster than the other. That doesn't mean its ok for the race organizer to sell head-starts.
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5/29/09 4:19:44 PM#50
Originally posted by Fibsdk
Look it up, seriously. It has every protection under law the Statue of Liberty does and then some. You can't commercially use the words Borg-Warner Trophy without permission. Not the name not the likeness nothing. In nearly any context. Look up the legal protections accorded to National Treasures. Who said anything about commercial use? Read the first question I posted directly above. Sorry, but the discussion fails at this point.
You guys are straying further and further away from the original discussion just so you can win an argument. Why not take that argument to PMs?. I doubt anybody on the forums will read it and go..yeah that guy is right and play referee. Let's get this discussion back on topic instead of having it derailed by battling egos.
Agreed. |
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