Originally posted by Nightbringe1

Originally posted by maskedweasel

 Personally, I enjoy PvP ONLY if its good PvP.  CoX was not good PvP, whereas I felt guildwars and Warhammer had good PvP.   CoX didn't originally have PvP in mind and it was thrown in... and you can clearly tell it was thrown in.  After the launch of CoV there were many powerset balance problems which most games have, but I feel CoX's were self imposed. They tried to play the "balance" game, which CO just won't be doing.  They stated there will be some powersets that are just more powerful then others, but there won't be a single "Ultimate build"

  

 

I don't have anything against games being designed for PvP play, to each his own.

Champions is not, however, being touted as having a pvp focus. It seems to be very much focused on PvE, with acknowlegements made from the begining that the classes are not balanced for PvP. As such, I have no expectation of the game being reviewed from a PvP standpoint.

I responded as I did to the individual blasting the review as he seems to be under the impression that PvP should be treated as a central aspect of all games, even those not promoting themselves as primarily PvP.

I agree with you to an extent.  PvP is not the sole purpose of many games, in fact, its a very small part of many of the games out there right now.  Its been said, and I have said and believe that this was meant to be a PvE game.  When I say that I don't mean that I don't plan on PvP'ing in the game. On the contrary, I actually believe that CO might be some absolutely fantastic PvP simply because, its not balanced.

Personally I would love nothing more then to review the game solely on a PvP standpoint.  I'd love just to test the game, and write something more in depth then I can provide here, but now is not my time.   PvP is part of this game, and although its not the main focus of this game, I always like to think of PvP as that added spice that makes a game great.

Puuk
I wonder to what extent is the environment is interactive? Can my hulking (pun intended) super strength character lift up a car and hurl it at a bad guy (or anything else in the world)? That's the kind of interactivity that would seal a pre-order for me.

Therain93
Or rip a lamp post out of the ground and swing it like a club into a bunch of bad guys (like in Freedom Force! ; ' )

Its been mention in several articles and reviews that yes, the interaction does includes things such as picking up and throwing cars, using lampposts, etc.  In addition, some missions involve using your powers and applying them to the environment, like using Super Strength to lift rubble off trapped citizens.

Weretech
Of course, as far as I'm concerned, any game that is called Champions should be using the Champoins the RPG rules. Champions Online doesn't. The rules of Champions were so well balanced that there is really no excuse not to use the rules other than being lazy. This game definatly doesn't live up to the legacy of Champions the RPG even from the start.
I was highly suprised to hear that they were going to release this for the computer market first - espeically how the hype is saying that is is a console game. They would have been much wiser to release it on the console market first and get a loyal following there before taking on the City of Heroes/Villains.

This game does take and use the Champions PnP rules as its base, but it had to be modified to work in an MMO, where there are thousands of players not just 6-8 around a table.  Balance is more of an issue to such a large player base, when compared to a few friends playing together.  The Dev team has worked closely with Champions PnP staff to make this as close of a transition as possible.

As for computer release before console release, your assessment implies there have been many successful MMOs on consoles which is not the case (PSO and FFO being the exceptions).  Almost every interview with developers they get asked the question of whether this game will break the bad luck of MMOs on consoles.  On the reverse side, there are many successful MMOs on PC and even the moderate successes have outdone previous console MMO releases.  Simply put, you are more likely to get a larger player base with computer before console release.  Keep in mind that with the push back on the PC release to Sept 1 the console release really isn't much later as it is set for "holiday" release.
 
Ivan50265
I was hoping to hear a little about creating my personal Nemisis in the game.  Has it been implemrnted yet?

The Nemesis system will be in from launch.  I saw a post mentioning that you do not make your Nemesis until level 30, but I am not sure that is correct.  I have seen reviews and invterviews, that reference making the nemesis after completing your hero creation.  Maybe, the poster misread something that meant the Nemsis will start plaguing you around level 30 or something.  Again, I cannot say for sure which is correct, just report what I have read.  Another thing to note is that in a recent interview, when asked about the Nemesis system, the developer said they plan on expanding upon it even after launch, possibly including the chance to play as your Nemesis.
 
Yamota
pvp? PvP? PVP??
Why do so many MMORPG previews/reviews fail to even mention if there is any PvP? It is one of the biggest aspect of MMORPGs to please, get on the program!

There is an extensive PvP system in place with 3 specific types of challenges, as well as dueling 1v1.  Rankings will will be listed and doing well also grants useful rewards that cannot be obtained elsewhere.
 

Sounds nice, I just hope they got rid of the auwfull ( imo the worst pve ever, played most mmorpgs for years ) auwfull.......... auwfull random generated 5 theme lvl system. If you played every lvl of the 5 diff theme of lvls ( cave, office, etc ) once, you played them all and was it a pure grind with sometimes a diff staircase or diff door... I still got nightmares of it :)

if they acctually putted some effort in the pve missions / quests this time I will try this one :)

Originally posted by Yamota

 

Ok, thanks for the info. It was just a few lines but enough for preview but the previewer did not even mention it, and that shows incompetence for someone previewing an MMORPG.

IMO, it is an example of a good understanding of MMOs. In the short span of time that someone previews a game there is no way to realistically gauge the PVP pros, cons, or even give an accurate description of it. All you would have is the limited experience of one or two classes in a tiny level range... and probably in a controlled environment.

Think fo the MMOs that you play. Now imagine a person doing a review of the gameplay, and fitting in what little they saw or experienced of PvP in the day or so of playing. Do you feel they would be able to accurately represent PvP in your game from that?

In response to Madeux in post #52:

"  And the reviewers intent was completely obvious, unless you're trolling and just looking for something to pick at.

I'm all for being critical, but the negativity so often seen here is disturbing.

"The reviewer said something wrong, so this game is going to suck!! Everybody run!!!!"  "
 

His clarification is exactly how I read it, FWIW.  I also didn't see a negative connotation, though I can see how some would infer one.

<Edited to add what I was quoting, because I'm a doofus.>

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by Nightbringe1

Originally posted by maskedweasel

 Personally, I enjoy PvP ONLY if its good PvP.  CoX was not good PvP, whereas I felt guildwars and Warhammer had good PvP.   CoX didn't originally have PvP in mind and it was thrown in... and you can clearly tell it was thrown in.  After the launch of CoV there were many powerset balance problems which most games have, but I feel CoX's were self imposed. They tried to play the "balance" game, which CO just won't be doing.  They stated there will be some powersets that are just more powerful then others, but there won't be a single "Ultimate build"

  

 

I don't have anything against games being designed for PvP play, to each his own.

Champions is not, however, being touted as having a pvp focus. It seems to be very much focused on PvE, with acknowlegements made from the begining that the classes are not balanced for PvP. As such, I have no expectation of the game being reviewed from a PvP standpoint.

I responded as I did to the individual blasting the review as he seems to be under the impression that PvP should be treated as a central aspect of all games, even those not promoting themselves as primarily PvP.

 

I agree with you to an extent.  PvP is not the sole purpose of many games, in fact, its a very small part of many of the games out there right now.  Its been said, and I have said and believe that this was meant to be a PvE game.  When I say that I don't mean that I don't plan on PvP'ing in the game. On the contrary, I actually believe that CO might be some absolutely fantastic PvP simply because, its not balanced.

Personally I would love nothing more then to review the game solely on a PvP standpoint.  I'd love just to test the game, and write something more in depth then I can provide here, but now is not my time.   PvP is part of this game, and although its not the main focus of this game, I always like to think of PvP as that added spice that makes a game great.

 

I *think* I read in one of the many preview articles about Champions that PvP was going to be available early on, and that you could earn experience and other rewards for participating in it.  I apologize for not having the link handy, but that sounds like more than an afterthought, assuming I am remembering correctly.
 

Here is some more info on the PvP, since it seems alot of people are interested.  It doesn't state when players can join in on these, but I doubt it would be only available late in careers.  The info is from an interview with Bill Roper on on the atomic web site at: ATOMIC

"PVP
In the Champions Universe, heroes go up against each other to test their abilities, prepare for extreme situations, and compete in what is known as The Hero Games. These are basically different contests designed to allow superheroes to go up against each other in a competitive fashion. From team battles to end-of-the world scenarios to open free-for-alls, the Hero Games act like a danger room mixed with elements of professional wrestling and extreme sports. Currently, we're shooting for three types of PvP play in the Hero Games:

1. Tournament of Champions
This is team-based combat within a defined arena. Teams of heroes can rise to top of the leader-board rankings and gain both acclaim and rewards for their efforts. The Tournament started as underground events between desperate and unsavory individuals with super powers. Recent times have seen the Tournament of Champions become a sanctioned event that is televised and followed by millions of eager fans around the world.

2. B.A.S.H.
This free-for-all affair takes place in a condemned section of the Westside district of Millennium City. While not as pristine an event as the Tournament of Champions, it does have a bevy of followers who track the winners and losers (and offer rewards) with just as mush fervor. It also has the beneficial side effect of making street crime non-existent in that part of the city.

3. Apocalypse
These are special scenarios devised to push superheroes to their limits in extreme situations. The current setting is within a simulated Stronghold prison where some heroes take on the roles of assisting the prison guards and others are trying to break out. This prepares all those involved to either quell a prison uprising or shake free unjust shackles should the prison ever fall into the wrong hands."

Nice Review. I played CoX for a year or more, and really enjoyed it, but it got very tedious: Fight Frostfire 20 times in the same group in one night.. lol. Champions has a lot to live up to against CoH, but I've got a hero complex anyways, and this action combat and open missions sound good. Sounds like fun I may just have to try a free trial.

Originally posted by Alverant

Originally posted by DeserttFoxx

Champions online is NOT twich based.

 

The ability to block just allows you to cut down damage on big moves, you can also dodge certain boss attacks, but dont go into the game expecting it to be counter strike with a cape.  There is a lot more interactivity in combat then the average MMO but dont let the idea of faster paced combat scare you away from this title.

 

So CO is not twitch based but it does depend on you mashing the right button or shoving the joystick the right way at the right instant in time. That's like saying, "I didn't drive home from work in a car, I drove home in a motorized 4 wheeled vehicle smaller than a truck and SUV. But don't call it a car!"

What you describe in your second paragraph fits the definition of a twitch based game; the timing of when you do things matters more here than non-twitch games.

Once you play you will understand what im saying.

In the Champions Universe, heroes go up against each other to test their abilities, prepare for extreme situations, and compete in what is known as The Hero Games. These are basically different contests designed to allow superheroes to go up against each other in a competitive fashion. From team battles to end-of-the world scenarios to open free-for-alls, the Hero Games act like a danger room mixed with elements of professional wrestling and extreme sports. Currently, we're shooting for three types of PvP play in the Hero Games:

1. Tournament of Champions
This is team-based combat within a defined arena. Teams of heroes can rise to top of the leader-board rankings and gain both acclaim and rewards for their efforts. The Tournament started as underground events between desperate and unsavory individuals with super powers. Recent times have seen the Tournament of Champions become a sanctioned event that is televised and followed by millions of eager fans around the world.

2. B.A.S.H.
This free-for-all affair takes place in a condemned section of the Westside district of Millennium City. While not as pristine an event as the Tournament of Champions, it does have a bevy of followers who track the winners and losers (and offer rewards) with just as mush fervor. It also has the beneficial side effect of making street crime non-existent in that part of the city.

3. Apocalypse
These are special scenarios devised to push superheroes to their limits in extreme situations. The current setting is within a simulated Stronghold prison where some heroes take on the roles of assisting the prison guards and others are trying to break out. This prepares all those involved to either quell a prison uprising or shake free unjust shackles should the prison ever fall into the wrong hands."

"PVP

Nice! That PvP sounds like a lot of fun. Altho I also enjoy the: "You killed my father, prepare to die" type of combat, where I see a punk player and throw him into a nearby building bc he stole my loot last group. lol. Interesting that the last form of PvP is taken from a very popular sociology experiment of people role playing a prison. Considering that this sociology grips people in RL, taking it to an RPG, especially an MMO, is very brilliant. Look it up:

http://www.prisonexp.org/

Originally posted by JGMIII

Originally posted by Yamota

pvp? PvP? PVP?? 

Why do so many MMORPG previews/reviews fail to even mention if there is any PvP? It is one of the biggest aspect of MMORPGs to please, (Not)

Because it's easy to please pvpers, add decent combat and give players a reason to fight like intanced pvp or some world pvp objective and they bash eachothers faces in for months.

Or to put it more bluntly, PvP doesn't require any thought (or Skill or Talent) to implement , no Content required.

"Here's a stick, run around and hit each other."   PvP design and coding are now complete.

Nice preview. Im really looking forward to this one.
 

Only thing i don't get in the preview is this: 

"Less fun is the need to manually maintain attack range. Once a target is selected, players have to walk up on their own. It sounds like a small thing on paper, and makes sense given the importance of planning a route in Champions, but it can be extremely frustrating."

Sooooo... Why is it a problem that you need to maintain Melee distance when melee'ing? I thought that was expected?

Oh, and i still don't get the difference between a Comic and a Graphic Novel? Could someone give me an example?

Originally posted by Nightbringe1

Originally posted by Yamota

pvp? PvP? PVP??

 

Why do so many MMORPG previews/reviews fail to even mention if there is any PvP? It is one of the biggest aspect of MMORPGs to please, get on the program!

 

Because 90% of the gaming community does not care about PvP.

Other than the extremely large communities around games that are completely PvP based, such as Team Fortress 2, Counter Strike, DoTA, Guild Wars, Halo. Hell, even WoW has made PvP a bigger focus with their tournaments and arenas. You know basically every game outside of most MMOs realize people want to have competition. In fact, I'd say your made up number is actually the reverse.

Originally posted by Flummoxed

Originally posted by JGMIII

Originally posted by Yamota

pvp? PvP? PVP?? 

Why do so many MMORPG previews/reviews fail to even mention if there is any PvP? It is one of the biggest aspect of MMORPGs to please, (Not)

Because it's easy to please pvpers, add decent combat and give players a reason to fight like intanced pvp or some world pvp objective and they bash eachothers faces in for months.

 

Or to put it more bluntly, PvP doesn't require any thought (or Skill or Talent) to implement , no Content required.

"Here's a stick, run around and hit each other."   PvP design and coding are now complete.

PvP without purpose is lame. "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." The same thing applies to PvP.

If you think it takes nothing to implement real PvP systems you clearly do not know the first thing about PvP. Examples of PvP in games that have purpose, Guild Wars (competitive gaming), Warhammer (simply killing someone won't lock a zone, which won't get you to a fort, which won't get you into the city), Shadowbane (your city was the center of everything and destroying it meant a lot).

All of those examples were more than someone turning on the ability for people to hit each other.

I'm going to bend the NDA rules a bit to clear up some issues.  I will only clarify what was stated in the opening and what I know to be public knowledge.  Keep in mind though that the game is still in beta and constantly being improved upon so what I say here can and, in many cases, will be vastly different at launch.

Character Creator - I can sum it up by saying it looks at what CoX can do and laughs for 5 minutes straight before it brags, "Now let me show you what a REAL character creator looks like!"  And it CAN back up that claim!  It's not quite intuitive in some places and freakishly confusing in others but I find most of the reason is simply do to its shear size.  It is so sick that I suggested they give players starting templates, otherwise many will be lost.  Another thing mentioned is power orientation points but what isn't mentioned is that the color of powers can be changed too, individually.  I've seen one electricity user with seperate red, green, yellow and violet lightning attacks.

Tutorial - The opening stated that the tutorial was short.  I disagree vastly.  It takes me about 30 minutes to an hour to complete, depending on various factors.  I will add that some of the time is spent on what I can only describe as "side quests."  I dare not say any more on that.  The missions are more reminicent of Warcraft than city of Heroes.  I found the open world event a refreshing surprise and as stated, you can join it by simply being in the area.  As far as I can see, there is no way for malicious players to ruin it for others.  They can't even aggro enemies onto other players as aggro lock doesn't break easily.  Sometimes, I wish it did.  I've face-planted a few times because I bit off more than I could chew.

Combat - Not to disappoint a few of you but combat is not twitch-based.  However, I can also please those of that same group when I say combat often feels like it is twitch-based.  At the moment, some end builder attacks can be triggered while you are in motion so you can, in effect, "run and gun" (and quite literally with a few power choices).  Projectiles are still homing but they move so fast and can be tossed so often that only once have I noticed an attack bending to hit an enemy.  Line of sight still plays an important role and because combat is so fast, breaking it to avoid attacks feels twitch-based as well.  Some Endurance builders are auto-attacks but I assure you that this is a good thing!  It's a recent change that is a LOT better than the old way.  Make no mistake though.  If you turn it on and leave to make a sandwich, chances are your character will be dead by the time you pull two slices of bread out.  Auto attacks alone will barely manage to kill a single, even-level minion and WILL fail to kill anything stronger.  You HAVE to use your other attacks too!  Positioning matters as well.  I've run into one boss whose charge attack highlights an area of effect.  If you value your lifebar, you will move out of that area!

Blocking - In my opinion, the active blocking system is ackward, especially to those use to doing it in fighting games, but it is a nice addition to combat.  It's also important, particularly against bosses.  Refusing to block is like kicking Darkseid in the nuts and daring him to hit you back.  It's about as stupid too.

Missions - As I've started earlier, they're more like Warcraft where you go to a contact and are given a specific task that's in the general area.  Most are your standard, bread and butter affair.  Go collect X amount of item Y from enemy Z.  Defeat X amount of enemies.  Take item X to contact Y.  However, some missions, common ones at that, can have a plot twist.  I came across a mundane guard mission later in the game that certainly didn't end the way I thought it would.  Instanced missions are few and so far, most are for main story events.  Many agree that the one at the end of the turorial is "EPIC!!!" the first time around.  (Yes, you must spell that in caps with no less than 3 exclamation marks!)

Environment - Yes, some objects are interactive.  I can and must confess there's a certain giddish glee in picking up a trashcan and hurling it at enemies 25 feet away, knocking off half their HP.  As for larger objects, while I can't personally confirm being able to lift a vehicle, I can say that my character has tried but it proved too heavy for her.  This feature, as well as a few others, is stat-based.  If you want to chuck cars around, you better have enough strength to do so.  What I can confirm is that one person claims to have lifted a vehicle during the turorial because they had the right stats and equipment to make their strength high enough so you'll be able to do amazing things fairly early.

As for the look of the game, I think the opening reporter meant that the game is highly stylized.  The pictures give you a general idea but still frames can't do the game justice.  It doesn't quite look like it was lifted from comicbook pages but vivid colors and simplified textures (compared to ultra-realistic games) give it the spoken "graphic novel" appearence.  Don't let the word "simple" fool you.  The detail is focused more on the highlighting, shadows, light reflections and bumpmaps.

PvP - I cannot comment on this as I know very little about PvP and didn't care to participate.  I will say that at the moment, it's available pretty soon after the tutorial zone.  About level 8 or so.

Travel - One thing I could kiss Cryptic for is making travel powers available VERY early!  The tutorial area is small so it's not needed then,  At the moment though, when you're ready to leave the tutorial, you'll have the option to pick one.  There's a pretty good selection to choose from that is still growing!

One last issue I wish to address is the fear that, with every power available to every character, all players will do is create tank mages.  On one hand, this fear is founded.  Most players have created heroes that can dish the pain and take it too.  They will probably learn the same lesson I have.  There was one instanced mission that I couldn't beat solo so I teamed up with another tank mage to take it on.  Because we handled the outside with no trouble, we literally ran in blasting everything in sight.  Even though both of us had high damage, high hitpoints and healing powers, we were rewarded with a kiss from linoleum about 45 seconds later.  After we respawned, we decided to proceed just a wee bit slower and were able to handle things better but not without coming close to wiping again.  Later on it had occured to me that if either of us had just one control power, any control power, we could have applied it to just a handful of minions which would have been enough to avoid the first wipe.  The lesson is pigeon-holing yourself to the tank mage style of play is foolish.  It's far better to be adaptive.

Conclusion - In my opinion, the game is good but not yet great.  Cryptic still has balance issues to address and bugs to work out but what they have so far shows great promise.  They have given me almost everything I expected them to deliver and tossed in a few extra tidbits that made me crack a smile.  If things continue the way they are, I honestly believe that at launch, anyone who is bored with this game only after two weeks has only the limits of their imagination to blame.  How can you grow tired of a game that gives you a world to save and a sandbox of power choices to do it with?