Okay, okay, I was thinking about this, whilst doing some story writing for my little fantasy setting ( which is shaping up quite nicely, it's different, but not so different as to alienate people ), and I decided to pose this question to all of you out there.

How, in a non-level based / "skill" based game, can you make the characters feel more powerful as they get "higher skills" without making them undefeatable by lower skill players? Basically, how do you make progression lateral, whilst making sure that players do not feel as if their skill level is worthless?

Some obvious things come to me, like different debuffs, AoE etc from levelling up, but they probably wouldn't make players feel any more powerful, just give them a wider variety of choice.

Or, in your opinion, do they not need extra power, just extra choice?

Originally posted by Devour

Okay, okay, I was thinking about this, whilst doing some story writing for my little fantasy setting ( which is shaping up quite nicely, it's different, but not so different as to alienate people ), and I decided to pose this question to all of you out there.

How, in a non-level based / "skill" based game, can you make the characters feel more powerful as they get "higher skills" without making them undefeatable by lower skill players? Basically, how do you make progression lateral, whilst making sure that players do not feel as if their skill level is worthless?

Some obvious things come to me, like different debuffs, AoE etc from levelling up, but they probably wouldn't make players feel any more powerful, just give them a wider variety of choice.

Or, in your opinion, do they not need extra power, just extra choice?

You cannot. The primary "measure" of power is whether you can defeat others. If a L80 cannot defeat a L1 easily, how can he/she feel powerful?
 

The same can be said about PvE. If a L80 cannot outdps a L1, how can he feel powerful?

More choices (for example customization your looks) are fine but it is really not every effective to make people feel more powerful. If you look at a game like WOW, dps can change a factor of 2 for L80 purely based on gear. That is power for you.

Even if you gave the player more debuffs, the effect has to be realized in success of tackling a tougher situation than prior to having that debuff.

Extra power and choice is optimal in todays standards I'd think.  In the military, i have to be proficient with an m16 before i graduate to more power, to become an m60 gunner. As a sniper, i become more proficient at hitting a moving target versus a stationary one with more practice and the skill that comes with it; more situational choices that, i guess makes me more powerful.

First off, I must apologize to Devour. Slammed him in another thread, but since then read a lot of very sensible posts by him. So, peace.

Regarding your question. In my opinion planetside did this very well. You have a number of certification points to invest in skills which allow you to use certain weapons or vehicles. As you level up you gain more points.

What that means is that even as a low-level player you have access to pretty much every piece of equipment, but because your points are quickly used up, you can't switch if you find yourself in a situation that requires a different loadout. As the player progresses and acquires more cert points, he has the option of switching to different tools of destruction as the circumstance requires.

In essence a skilled low-level player has every chance to defeat a high-level player, if the situation favours his current certification. Overall though, there is a great incentive to level up, as you become more versatile and can enjoy different aspects of the game within one play-session. (you can re-cert every so many hours real time)

I hope that makes sense. Given that you are in a fantasy scenario, I'm not sure how that would translate, but giving the player different options is a great way, imho, to reward and give a sense of power. Also, i'm a great fan of visual rewards. Access to different looking (!) armour, different dye kits, different looking mounts, etc. makes a player distinguishable and potentially admired/feared.

... just realized Cik-Asalin said more or less the same thing with fewer words... dang

Originally posted by nariusseldon

You cannot. The primary "measure" of power is whether you can defeat others. If a L80 cannot defeat a L1 easily, how can he/she feel powerful?
 

The same can be said about PvE. If a L80 cannot outdps a L1, how can he feel powerful?

More choices (for example customization your looks) are fine but it is really not every effective to make people feel more powerful. If you look at a game like WOW, dps can change a factor of 2 for L80 purely based on gear. That is power for you.

 

Well, the difference here is that in a levelbased system a lvl1 do zero damage to a 80. Not a little but nothing.

Without levels a noob do a little damage to an experienced player. Not much and the chanses of he alone killing the experienced one is varying from small to almost nothing depending on the system but if 10 noobs gank a experienced players they will probably win, like in real life.

An experience player should do more DPS, mostly because he hits a lot more often and avoids being hit himself.

The OP should have a look on how pen and paper games are solving this, I reccomend a look on the brilliant Warhammer fantasy roleplaying game.

There the chanses to hit increase and toughness which is lowering the damage you recive. You also gains more attacks, you start with 1 but can get so many as 4 or 5 in a round. But with all this an experienced player can still be defeated by a noob, it is just not likely and happens one in a thousand times. But it does happen. You can also get more hitpoints, about the double that you started with.

You do not make more damage in the game with a single cut however even if your crit chanse improve but it is the extra attack speed that give you that. The system is very balanced and would work well in a MMO, but I simplefied it down a lot for you guys.

There are also many otther pen and paper system that works as good like Runequest and Shadowrun, the last one does not have hitpoints.

Originally posted by Cik_Asalin

Even if you gave the player more debuffs, the effect has to be realized in success of tackling a tougher situation than prior to having that debuff.

 

Extra power and choice is optimal in todays standards I'd think.  In the military, i have to be proficient with an m16 before i graduate to more power, to become an m60 gunner. As a sniper, i become more proficient at hitting a moving target versus a stationary one with more practice and the skill that comes with it; more situational choices that, i guess makes me more powerful.

That only works to a certain degree, I am great with a sub machine gun but have hardly ever shot with a pistol and can use a sword quite good but not a knife.

You could easily start with the M60, it would be a little more work but not that incredible much.

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by Cik_Asalin

Even if you gave the player more debuffs, the effect has to be realized in success of tackling a tougher situation than prior to having that debuff.

 

Extra power and choice is optimal in todays standards I'd think.  In the military, i have to be proficient with an m16 before i graduate to more power, to become an m60 gunner. As a sniper, i become more proficient at hitting a moving target versus a stationary one with more practice and the skill that comes with it; more situational choices that, i guess makes me more powerful.

 

That only works to a certain degree, I am great with a sub machine gun but have hardly ever shot with a pistol and can use a sword quite good but not a knife.

You could easily start with the M60, it would be a little more work but not that incredible much.

This is probably where we differ, but it also helps in carving out specialties.  You might be good with a snub-nosed 38 hand-gun, but have to become more proficient at using it before you can handle the recoil of the 44 magnum and the power that comes with it.  And just because you might be good at handguns, might not necessarily mean your good at rifle'd weapons, perhaps.

You could perhaps look at the guild wars approach, with a larger variety and easier access to skills however limiting the max skills able to be used at a time, thus putting an importance on strategy.

In a non level based game its difficult. One way is by equipment that takes time or resources to obtain...one in which only a veteran player could aquire while a new player couldnt

Not extra power extra utility. Any noob can gut someone with a big scrap of iron. Not everyone can evade, track down, pass without a trace, move silently, disable without killing, overcome certain types of obstacles, avoid traps. find the best routes between points, mapping  Debuff removal, cure poisons, remove death effects, reduce fatigue. To me the most interesting spells have always been the ones that do something besides kill.

addition to the good comments of above posters -

If what characters do look the same, I think even if you know your skill points are doing something, it still wouldn't "feel" any different.
So, I guess visually those things should show, like speed of movement or speed of your character locking on a target when shooting arrows for example.

In fact made me think that games that do use the sp model should implement the graphical changes to the character as some primary skills increase. It's like an extension to the skill progression.

Originally posted by Czzarre

In a non level based game its difficult. One way is by equipment that takes time or resources to obtain...one in which only a veteran player could aquire while a new player couldnt

Its been done. It's called EVE. 

This has been done easily in good Open ended games and I'm sure it would work in more skill oriented games.

First you make the game have an unlimited skill cap overall.

But you cap individual skill templates.  So it would take like two weeks to make a perfect Warrior and any newb can make a warrior that can go toe to toe with a 5 years vet thats using a warrior also since specific templates are capped.

The difference is flexability in playstyle of the vet. since there's no overall cap that older player can be a warrior, paladin, mage, ranger, thief. His power is flexability of roles. Now I know you think that would make the new player be at a disadvantage.

Not if you link skill sets with gear. Like the vet with heavy armor and a 2h axe is a warrior but even if hes a mage and a hunter he cant use those skills unless he changes gear.

So he really isnt able to use everything at once, his power is in flexability.

basically a two week player will be able to hang toe to toe with a vet.

Eve actually works like this but maxxing out a skill template for a specific playstyle takes longer than two weeks.

In a fantasy game just make sure its easier to reach template skill caps so that doesn't happen.

I'm kind of tired so I hope you guys can understand me.

Edit: Shit!!!! I was beaten to it. i tried to explain the mechanic a bit instead of just saying its been done in eve already LOL! Actually its also like this in Ryzom as well.

Originally posted by Czzarre

In a non level based game its difficult. One way is by equipment that takes time or resources to obtain...one in which only a veteran player could aquire while a new player couldnt

Level-based games are essentially "Get this much XP and all your Skills increase x amount" so this problem is not different at all between a Level-based game and a Skill-centric one.

As others have noted, the "Lateral Progression" systems of Planetside and Guild Wars are where it's at.  However these systems are specifically designed to keep the gap small, between max and min level players.  Also note that this style of system is specifically being used by PVP-focused games; in games where the developers wanted Player Skill to be the strongest factor in winning a fight.

It really comes down to asking yourself what the goals are for your RPG, and developing systems that meet those goals.  If PVP isn't even a focus, then lateral progression makes less sense because you can solve the PVE side of things quite easily (Sidekick system from City of Heroes; "Bolster" buff in PVP areas of Warhammer (and in COX's PVP))

Originally posted by Axehilt

Level-based games are essentially "Get this much XP and all your Skills increase x amount" so this problem is not different at all between a Level-based game and a Skill-centric one.

As others have noted, the "Lateral Progression" systems of Planetside and Guild Wars are where it's at.  However these systems are specifically designed to keep the gap small, between max and min level players.  Also note that this style of system is specifically being used by PVP-focused games; in games where the developers wanted Player Skill to be the strongest factor in winning a fight.

It really comes down to asking yourself what the goals are for your RPG, and developing systems that meet those goals.  If PVP isn't even a focus, then lateral progression makes less sense because you can solve the PVE side of things quite easily (Sidekick system from City of Heroes; "Bolster" buff in PVP areas of Warhammer (and in COX's PVP))

But you should be better if you played a long time, that is the whole point. In a level less system like I described in my post above you can bring a noob with an experienced group without any mentoring or whatever, he will do less damage and are easier to hit by the mobs but it isn't like in a levelbased system where he will do no damage at all on the mobs. You will of course be better of with another experienced playerbut a noob is still better than no one.

In level based system you will do a lot less damage than usual when attacking things that are higher level than you, that is why you need the sidekick/mentor system.

But players should still get better as time pass, otherwise you are playing an FPS. It doesn't matter if you are playing PvP or PvE, hard work should always pay of. It shouldn't make you unbeatable either of course so it needs to be a balance. Someone with a better armor wont defeat an opponent with inferior armor every time even if they are as good, but he will most of the time.

Originally posted by Devour

Okay, okay, I was thinking about this, whilst doing some story writing for my little fantasy setting ( which is shaping up quite nicely, it's different, but not so different as to alienate people ), and I decided to pose this question to all of you out there.

How, in a non-level based / "skill" based game, can you make the characters feel more powerful as they get "higher skills" without making them undefeatable by lower skill players? Basically, how do you make progression lateral, whilst making sure that players do not feel as if their skill level is worthless?

Some obvious things come to me, like different debuffs, AoE etc from levelling up, but they probably wouldn't make players feel any more powerful, just give them a wider variety of choice.

Or, in your opinion, do they not need extra power, just extra choice?

One way is to just ignore the " leveling " or damage aspect of skills, and focus more on application of the right skill at the right time.  Make the combat much more realistic.  Don't include skills that only have different properties, but make sure they pros/cons.

i.e. Projectiles that don't just move in a straight line or have the exact same timing.  

i.e. Melee skills that leave your character open for attack or counter.

Originally posted by Loke666 

But you should be better if you played a long time, that is the whole point. In a level less system like I described in my post above you can bring a noob with an experienced group without any mentoring or whatever, he will do less damage and are easier to hit by the mobs but it isn't like in a levelbased system where he will do no damage at all on the mobs. You will of course be better of with another experienced playerbut a noob is still better than no one.

In level based system you will do a lot less damage than usual when attacking things that are higher level than you, that is why you need the sidekick/mentor system.

But players should still get better as time pass, otherwise you are playing an FPS. It doesn't matter if you are playing PvP or PvE, hard work should always pay of. It shouldn't make you unbeatable either of course so it needs to be a balance. Someone with a better armor wont defeat an opponent with inferior armor every time even if they are as good, but he will most of the time.

You're only using WOW as an example, and it's not actually due to using a level-based system at all.

Imagine two DPS characters:

• level 70 character vs. level 70 mob = 600 DPS
• level 80 character vs. level 80 mob = 1000 DPS

Why doesn't the level 70 character deal 600 DPS against a level 80 target?

It's not because of level, it's because of the myriad of combat systems in WOW which care about AttackerLevel vs. DefenderLevel.  Among the many systems that work this way are:

• Weapon Skill (glancing blows)
• Defenses (defense, parry, block, etc)
• Hit/Spellhit (misses)

Blizzard didn't have to implement these systems that way.  If they'd left the level comparison out of those combat mechanics, a level 70 would deal 600 DPS to a level 80 target.

So it's not the Level-based progression system, but the myriad of mini-combat systems that cause a level 70 to do terrible DPS to a level 80 mob.

A skill-based progression game could use similar mechanics so that the difference between someone with 70 Sword Skill and 80 Sword Skill is just as important as being level 70 vs. 80 in WOW.  In fact, I would question the depth of a skill-centric system where it was abnormally easy to fight mobs significantly higher than your skill level.

Although personally I haven't really played many skill-centric MMOs (Asheron's Call 1 probably being the closest, but it was a hybrid and had the strengths of a level-based system to sidestep the weaknesses of a skill-only system.)

It's fine to say characters should get better as time progresses.  But each MMO needs to draw the line somewhere between "advancement is purely lateral" (ie becoming more flexible, not more powerful) and "advancement is mostly vertical" (becoming more powerful, with new abilities making you slightly more flexible.)  The former works great for PVP-centric games, while the latter is proven for PVE-centric games.   ...and neither cares whether you choose a skill-centric or level-centric system for your primary means of advancement (because like i said earlier: a level system is basically "all my skills go up when I get enough XP".)

Originally posted by thinktank001

Originally posted by Devour

Okay, okay, I was thinking about this, whilst doing some story writing for my little fantasy setting ( which is shaping up quite nicely, it's different, but not so different as to alienate people ), and I decided to pose this question to all of you out there.

How, in a non-level based / "skill" based game, can you make the characters feel more powerful as they get "higher skills" without making them undefeatable by lower skill players? Basically, how do you make progression lateral, whilst making sure that players do not feel as if their skill level is worthless?

Some obvious things come to me, like different debuffs, AoE etc from levelling up, but they probably wouldn't make players feel any more powerful, just give them a wider variety of choice.

Or, in your opinion, do they not need extra power, just extra choice?

One way is to just ignore the " leveling " or damage aspect of skills, and focus more on application of the right skill at the right time.  Make the combat much more realistic.  Don't include skills that only have different properties, but make sure they pros/cons.

i.e. Projectiles that don't just move in a straight line or have the exact same timing.  

i.e. Melee skills that leave your character open for attack or counter.

While I agree with this, I do believe that the damage and graphical show of each skill should be increased slightly over the course of a character's life.

Depending on how you're doing this, say a character does have the whole strength, agility, intelligence style of stat system. You could have those stats add on to a skill to both increase its damage as well as its graphical show.

i.e. Let's just say you have a skill "Bash" which swings forward and hits the enemy, knocking them back and doing damage.
At 10 strength, a starting amount for any new player, Bash hits for 10 damage and knocks back 5 feet, with a small red sprite
At 50 strength, about mid-game for a player, Bash hits for 20 damage and knocks back 7 feet, with a large red sprite

etc. etc.

I believe this would have made my enjoyment of World of Warcraft a lot greater than what it was, seeing as how the graphics of a rank 12 firebolt was the same as a rank 1 firebolt, and really dampened the whole "I'm getting stronger" feeling while in combat.

Even without the stats system in there, surely you could even have a "skill mastery" thing going on, making a skill maybe up to 50% more powerful, but with a better, more powerful graphical look to it.

Originally posted by Axehilt 

A skill-based progression game could use similar mechanics so that the difference between someone with 70 Sword Skill and 80 Sword Skill is just as important as being level 70 vs. 80 in WOW.  In fact, I would question the depth of a skill-centric system where it was abnormally easy to fight mobs significantly higher than your skill level.

Although personally I haven't really played many skill-centric MMOs (Asheron's Call 1 probably being the closest, but it was a hybrid and had the strengths of a level-based system to sidestep the weaknesses of a skill-only system.)

It's fine to say characters should get better as time progresses.  But each MMO needs to draw the line somewhere between "advancement is purely lateral" (ie becoming more flexible, not more powerful) and "advancement is mostly vertical" (becoming more powerful, with new abilities making you slightly more flexible.)  The former works great for PVP-centric games, while the latter is proven for PVE-centric games.   ...and neither cares whether you choose a skill-centric or level-centric system for your primary means of advancement (because like i said earlier: a level system is basically "all my skills go up when I get enough XP".)

Oh ho ho, but here is where "skills" and "levels" start getting thrown around and mixed up!

If you have an MMO based on level gaining rather than skill gaining, one would just level up by grinding mobs until their level is so high that the game just recognises them as "Uber cool." compared to a newbie who the game recognises as "Lame."

In WoW, "level" is used as well as "skills", making it sort of unfair that a mage who has never taken a hit in his or her life, but is level 80 due to awesome mob farming, will still dodge and parry and all that bullshit against a level 10 warrior who has "maxed out" his sword skill.

If you were just using a skill system, one would have to train up their "dodging" and "parrying", or just simply, "defending" skill, in order to properly counter effectively against someone, even a relative noob, who just has high "sword swinging and pwnage" skills.

For example, one character has decided to go "pure swordzzzz", and spends all day using his sword on things (bunnies, people, whatever) and maxes his sword skill up to 100. His relative "level" in time spent would be like, a level 10.

Then another character, some guy who likes to average out everything, has been casting spells, shooting arrows, stabbing people (for ease sake, let's say "with swords"). Spells, arrows, and swords for this dude are all at like, 50. Let's say he's at a level 15 time spent.

If the game were PVE, the guy at the bottom would be a nice DPS dude. I'd like to have him for that fight with the lava dude who burns you up close, and sometimes activates an anti-magic shield! Much better than someone with a sword who's just gonna die after a few minutes.

But if the game were PVP based, sword-man would probably beat el-generalito, with his epic sword skillzzz.

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Originally posted by zymurgeist
Not extra power extra utility. Any noob can gut someone with a big scrap of iron. Not everyone can evade, track down, pass without a trace, move silently, disable without killing, overcome certain types of obstacles, avoid traps. find the best routes between points, mapping  Debuff removal, cure poisons, remove death effects, reduce fatigue. To me the most interesting spells have always been the ones that do something besides kill.

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This, dammit, this!