You say the games are catered to casuals?

I disagree.  The games these days are more hardcore than I've ever seen.  Why?  Because all the games do are things the hardcore say they want: loot-based character advancement, constant action, marathon raids, guild-centric player life, and coordination so demanding you need TS/Vent to successfully navigate in groups.

The only thing the games generally don't do for the hardcore that the hardcore say they want is full-on PvP with looting, but that's a far strech for any game.

See, what makes the games hardcore these days is that all the stuff non-hardcore folk enjoy has been taken out...downtimes, crafting, emotes, and roleplay.  All that's left is a grind-fest to uberness, which is what the hardcore does.

I have to agree with the notion here that "hardcore" and "gamer" should never be used in the same sentence unless it is in a mocking way.  You aren't hardcore by any reasonable stretch of the word if you are playing video games 12 hours a day, unless you are betting $1000 a hand playing video poker/blackjack.

As to the point of the thread, I think "hardcore" gamers should be ignored.  You can never please these people, so why even try?  They'll burn through content it took 1000s of man hours to create in a week and then bitch about it.  They are the first people to jump ship to try the next shiny new MMO.  Why would you care about catering to these people? 

Originally posted by Darth_Osor

I have to agree with the notion here that "hardcore" and "gamer" should never be used in the same sentence unless it is in a mocking way.  You aren't hardcore by any reasonable stretch of the word if you are playing video games 12 hours a day, unless you are betting $1000 a hand playing video poker/blackjack.

As to the point of the thread, I think "hardcore" gamers should be ignored.  You can never please these people, so why even try?  They'll burn through content it took 1000s of man hours to create in a week and then bitch about it.  They are the first people to jump ship to try the next shiny new MMO.  Why would you care about catering to these people? 

You win!

Seriously. So called "hardcore" gamers have no business gaming period. They don't even play to have fun. they play to whine and complain about being too good for games.

Very few people like playing with these kind of people. They make games into competition instead of a good time.

If you don't think anyone caters to hardcore, go make your own stupid game where you can perma die after 1000 hours and do nothing but focus on being oh so amazing instead of having fun. then all your hardcore buddies can go play that game and leave the 99% of other gamers to actually enjoy the games out there.

Also, since honestly, about 1% of the gaming public would be considered "hardcore", it's just a waste of time and money to cater to them.

I think people need to try enjoying games instead of crying about them not being catered to them specifically. But what do I know? I'm not "hardcore".

Originally posted by John.A.Zoid

I don't have a problem with creating a game casuals can play but I hate this new thing of dumbing down the game so theres nothing for the hardcore and casuals can get everything.  We've seen this with World of Warcraft where theres nothing really anymore for the hardcore to differentiate themselves from the casual players. Now everyone can have everything and things like epics arn't special anymore and you miss that sense of omg he's badass. In SWG for example there was so much you could do to make yourselves different and the main reason for that is they didn't spoon feed the content to you and you had to work it out for yourselves. The suprising satistics I found of how few people did the things that I did, even other hardcore players and it made me feel proud. However if the game is too easy and thousands upon thousands of people have done that same thing, then you just don't care about doing anything.

Even in TF2 now they looked at how many people had the unlocked weapons and only a small percentage of players did so they decided to change the system to random so everyone had the chance. I just think thats dumb because the hardcore player has to have something to be different from the rest and if everyone had them then they arn't special anymore.

Why should everyone be able to see everything? Alot of people complain about content they wont see but why should they? I just want a game where the time I put into it makes me different and unique so I can feel happy about my character which is important for an mmorpg.

Hmm... where to start?

Ok. The games are created with the idea by the programmers that eventually every player will experience as much of the content as possible. There will be people who do not do more than half and there will be others who finish everything in 2 weeks and cry for more.

I would like to really address the latter group here. I was once like you. I would get a new shiny game and would BURN thru it like  it was money and I was on leave after a 3 year tour. I would max out my character and get all the best gear. My personal life took hits so my virtual life could flourish. Not to extremes mind you but enough that I actually had to look at what I was doing.

First and foremost the playing of a game should be for recreation. Simply put, for FUN.

Once it becomes an obsession you need to step back and take a look at what you are doing.

Hardcore is really just another way of saying you spend so much time playing that you think you deserve more than every other player. In essence that you are special because of your dedication. Nope. Not even close. 

It is just a game. If you run out of content play other race/class combinations until you get bored. Then take a deep breath and stop playing for awhile. If you spend a few days away and want to keep playing, great. If not try another game or go do something else entirely. 

It is silly to think that a small segment or even half the players of a game will be able to get devs to keep churning out content. With the current game model being used this just isn't possible. Ever y time you add something to the code you cause bugs. These have to be fixed. SO you are adding more and more fix time every time you expand. Granted you will put more in but it has to be at a measured pace. There will never be enough rare or difficult content for those who call themselves hardcore because they simply play too much. 

Now the assertion that you make that you cannot be as elite as you once were because things are dumbed down is in essence saying that : It isn't fair that these people playing this game are able to catch up with me even though I play 10 times as much as they do. I think you really need to take a look in the mirror on this one.

Even if they change the archtype of the games being make and allowed players to retire their players and become part of the mythos you would have issues. Say a game where the first person to kill this dragon gets to retire their character and become part of the mythos of the world. Or you get a statue erected to you. But again taht is a different template than the games are made under right now and likely (chime in any programmers) would be labor intensive. 

 Not to mention that eventually you would have people complaining that everything good had already been done. Then the devs are left adding more hardcore content and statues and expanding the mythos until it is a jumbled mess.

So I put it back onto your plate. Do not just complain. Tell us all  how you would like to see the games changed so that you as a member of the hardcore/playing a lot group would  get a bit more love.

Originally posted by Darth_Osor

I have to agree with the notion here that "hardcore" and "gamer" should never be used in the same sentence unless it is in a mocking way.  You aren't hardcore by any reasonable stretch of the word if you are playing video games 12 hours a day, unless you are betting $1000 a hand playing video poker/blackjack.

As to the point of the thread, I think "hardcore" gamers should be ignored.  You can never please these people, so why even try?  They'll burn through content it took 1000s of man hours to create in a week and then bitch about it.  They are the first people to jump ship to try the next shiny new MMO.  Why would you care about catering to these people? 

/thread

Add in the bitterness of once BEING the main draw.  Now they're cast aside.  Anger is just bound to bubble up.  I've never minded difficult or time consuming parts of a MMO.  Some people really love that.  Just as long as I don't have to do them to advance, I'm happy.  Knowing there are people playing that can achieve things I can't makes the world feel larger and more diverse.  Its the vocal animosity that seethes out, wanting EVERYONE to have to rise up to their play style, is why developers just don't care about them anymore.  They brought it upon themselves when it all comes down to it.

Solution is in the name of the post. There are NO needs because it is a game and simply a form of entertainment, nothing is needed or required. I myself am a hardcore gamer and despite the fact that my name describes how I feel about the MMO market, I don't sit down and go, man I really need a hardcore game in life, because well it's a game. If there isn't one you don't like play a different type of game.

---

Originally posted by LynxJSA

---

Originally posted by jimsmith08

This is the thing, there is no risk in a game, its impossible. How can a game have 'risk'? I see these types of comments on this board so much and it always amazes me how people can truley believe a game has an element of risk or danger in it. If I get shot in a game, I dont die in real life, If I get stabbed in a game I dont bleed over my keyboard, all that happens is I get set back slightly. 

---

 
There are different elements that can be at stake in PVP in some MMOs. Since you say "all that happens is I get set back slightly," it seems to indicate that you are more familiar with games like WOW, WAR and LOTRO where you really don't risk anything in combat. In some of the other MMOs, there are several things that players put on the line when they enter combat. Three very common ones are:

• resources collected
• time invested territories controlled

When you enter a battle in games like UO, EVE and Shadowbane you decide ahead of time what you are willing to risk in that engagement. In FFA arenas like UO's Felucca and EVE's nullsec space, that decision has to be weighed even if you are entering the arena for reasons that may not be for the direct intent of combat (recon, mining, courier, etc). On a greater scale, players also risk the territory they control. Loss of a territory can mean loss of status, passage rights or income.
Risk simply means the hazard or chance of loss of any kind, not specifically life or limb.
 
 

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Well, you're wasting that time playing these games anyway so what does it matter. The only difference between MMOs and staring at a wall is that MMOs have a monthly fee.

There is no risk in MMOs. There is no reward in MMOs. There is no hardcore in MMOs.

Why did you remove "territory controlled"?

You also acknowledge that the player risks losing time but then say there is no risk in MMOs. Odd.

I never thought of 'no lifers' (aka raiders) as hardcore. All they do is go to a dungeon, get on Vent/TS, and bark out their dance routines 24/7 in their very special little instances

That's not hardcore; doing the samething day in and day out in your very own private dungeon???

WoW was never hardcore. Raiders were merely told they were special when in reality they were kind of a joke. They never lifted a finger to help me do anything. They were just an elite crew of players that got handed free epix for dancing in their dungeons every night.

Getting awarded for merely time spent beating on scripted, mindless AI mobs was never anything worth epics in my book. Worst, it took 40 of these guys to gang bang on 1 AI???

Maybe it would be different if the mobs were roaming around the world itself harming other players. Than I'd have sympathy for the greedy loot grubbers if they actually lifted one finger to help the community / server

Originally posted by PatchDay

I never thought of 'no lifers' (aka raiders) as hardcore. All they do is go to a dungeon, get on Vent/TS, and bark out their dance routines 24/7 in their very special little instances

That's not hardcore; doing the samething day in and day out in your very own private dungeon???

WoW was never hardcore. Raiders were merely told they were special when in reality they were kind of a joke. They never lifted a finger to help me do anything. They were just an elite crew of players that got handed free epix for dancing in their dungeons every night.

 

Getting awarded for merely time spent beating on scripted, mindless AI mobs was never anything worth epics in my book. Worst, it took 40 of these guys to gang bang on 1 AI???

 

Maybe it would be different if the mobs were roaming around the world itself harming other players. Than I'd have sympathy for the greedy loot grubbers if they actually lifted one finger to help the community / server

 

Wow a lot of hostility from this one, got turned down to some raiding guild most likely

Originally posted by PatchDay

 

Getting awarded for merely time spent beating on scripted, mindless AI mobs was never anything worth epics in my book. Worst, it took 40 of these guys to gang bang on 1 AI???

 

 

Have you ever tried to coordinate a 25 man attack on an AI? One mistake and you wipe.

mindless != easy.

A mindless chess program which uses alpha-beta pruning can easily beat you and 99.9% of the population.

---

Originally posted by Darth_Osor
As to the point of the thread, I think "hardcore" gamers should be ignored.  You can never please these people, so why even try?

---

Game companies find it invaluable to keep those people around if they want to get the free marketing - the buzz - that the hardcore generate. They're the ones who zealously defend the game in forums, blog about their experiences online and tell friends and family ad nauseum. They are the source of game buzz that permits a lot of people to find out about the game in the first place.

They also happen to be the ones who kill games because they are annoyed by the things that the publisher does with the game. How many games died ignominious deaths after a design change that alienated the hardcore community? Would World of Warcraft exist without so many zealous players behaving like the game was a very important thing in people's lives? You can't buy marketing like that.

That said, I have no interest in catering to people who have extreme enthusiasm for games. "Moderation in all things."

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by PatchDay

 

Getting awarded for merely time spent beating on scripted, mindless AI mobs was never anything worth epics in my book. Worst, it took 40 of these guys to gang bang on 1 AI???

 

 

 

Have you ever tried to coordinate a 25 man attack on an AI? One mistake and you wipe.

mindless != easy.

A mindless chess program which uses alpha-beta pruning can easily beat you and 99.9% of the population.

What? Ok, once you spend a little time you know what to do and what not to do. Then you rinse and repeat. This is in no way hardcore or any more talented than being immortal and being able to walk through a mine field. In the end it is simply spending enough time doing it to know what to do and what not to do.

The end result is time=sucess.

That in no way makes someone hardcore. Unless by hardcore you mean someone who spends way too much time playing a game. I have done both sides and I can tell you at least for me it is not a lot of fun to play that way.

You grind out the gear set, the next expansion comes out and your top end gear is made useless by the green drops in the new area. So your time ends up being wasted. 

Rather than grind now I play as many characters/classes as possible to be able to experience as much of the game as I can.

Oh yeah, and try to have as much fun as I can. ;)

Originally posted by protoroc

Originally posted by PatchDay

I never thought of 'no lifers' (aka raiders) as hardcore. All they do is go to a dungeon, get on Vent/TS, and bark out their dance routines 24/7 in their very special little instances

That's not hardcore; doing the samething day in and day out in your very own private dungeon???

WoW was never hardcore. Raiders were merely told they were special when in reality they were kind of a joke. They never lifted a finger to help me do anything. They were just an elite crew of players that got handed free epix for dancing in their dungeons every night.

 

Getting awarded for merely time spent beating on scripted, mindless AI mobs was never anything worth epics in my book. Worst, it took 40 of these guys to gang bang on 1 AI???

 

Maybe it would be different if the mobs were roaming around the world itself harming other players. Than I'd have sympathy for the greedy loot grubbers if they actually lifted one finger to help the community / server

 

 

Wow a lot of hostility from this one, got turned down to some raiding guild most likely

maybe you are the person hes talking about :)

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Why did you remove "territory controlled"?

You also acknowledge that the player risks losing time but then say there is no risk in MMOs. Odd.

You lost time writing that post, what's your point?  You lose time doing everything you do, you might as well make sure that the things you do are things you enjoy.  If you're going to play a game that you hate and then get on here and complain about it, it seems to me you ought to just find something else to do.

Originally posted by Nomad40

What? Ok, once you spend a little time you know what to do and what not to do. Then you rinse and repeat. This is in no way hardcore or any more talented than being immortal and being able to walk through a mine field. In the end it is simply spending enough time doing it to know what to do and what not to do.

 

The end result is time=sucess.

 

That in no way makes someone hardcore. Unless by hardcore you mean someone who spends way too much time playing a game. I have done both sides and I can tell you at least for me it is not a lot of fun to play that way.

Well, define a little. I spent 3 hours with a PUG group to get down the pattern to kill emalon. This is already an EASY raid. You wipe again and again trying to learn how to do 3 drakes at OS. 

And i never said hardcore = talent. No talent should be required. We are takling about GAMES here. However, it does take dedication to spend hours and hours on the same boss, trying to beat it. I don't play hardcore either that is why i welcome making raids more accessible.

Originally posted by John.A.Zoid

I don't have a problem with creating a game casuals can play but I hate this new thing of dumbing down the game so theres nothing for the hardcore and casuals can get everything.  We've seen this with World of Warcraft where theres nothing really anymore for the hardcore to differentiate themselves from the casual players. Now everyone can have everything and things like epics arn't special anymore and you miss that sense of omg he's badass. In SWG for example there was so much you could do to make yourselves different and the main reason for that is they didn't spoon feed the content to you and you had to work it out for yourselves. The suprising satistics I found of how few people did the things that I did, even other hardcore players and it made me feel proud. However if the game is too easy and thousands upon thousands of people have done that same thing, then you just don't care about doing anything.

Even in TF2 now they looked at how many people had the unlocked weapons and only a small percentage of players did so they decided to change the system to random so everyone had the chance. I just think thats dumb because the hardcore player has to have something to be different from the rest and if everyone had them then they arn't special anymore.

Why should everyone be able to see everything? Alot of people complain about content they wont see but why should they? I just want a game where the time I put into it makes me different and unique so I can feel happy about my character which is important for an mmorpg.

You consider yourself a hardcore?  Funny, I never got the impression that you were anything close to being hardcore.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Nomad40

What? Ok, once you spend a little time you know what to do and what not to do. Then you rinse and repeat. This is in no way hardcore or any more talented than being immortal and being able to walk through a mine field. In the end it is simply spending enough time doing it to know what to do and what not to do.

 

The end result is time=sucess.

 

That in no way makes someone hardcore. Unless by hardcore you mean someone who spends way too much time playing a game. I have done both sides and I can tell you at least for me it is not a lot of fun to play that way.

 

Well, define a little. I spent 3 hours with a PUG group to get down the pattern to kill emalon. This is already an EASY raid. You wipe again and again trying to learn how to do 3 drakes at OS. 

And i never said hardcore = talent. No talent should be required. We are takling about GAMES here. However, it does take dedication to spend hours and hours on the same boss, trying to beat it. I don't play hardcore either that is why i welcome making raids more accessible.

 

This brings up a point about raids in general. You have to spend time to get down just how to kill something. So there are only a few ways a large group can kill these mega bosses. Not even strategy really as much as it is where to stand and what to do. Which is a limitation of the programming , but again you spend enough time you get better gear. This does not mean anyone is hardcore. One man's dedication is another man's time sink.

Originally posted by DrSpanky

Originally posted by Hegron

Hardcore died the day blizzard realised they could make more money out of casuals, few games companies will break that trend, they are in the business of making money, and casuals makes the more. Besides, it is just a game, who wants to devote their life to playing it, most people want a game they can jump into, have fun and jump out of and then get on with real life.

The days of hardcore have come and gone, and they will never be catered for as the forefront of mmo’s again. The new model is family and friend guilds, easy to attain goals, look at wow, it has become more successful the more it has changed over the last year or two, and will continue to grow. If you want hardcore in your life, juggle two jobs and bring up a family, otherwise realise its just a game, and if you don’t like the new style of mmo's then move along to something you do like.
 

That, my friend, was extremely well said.

Wow, that is an amazing post.  Couldn't have said it better myself.

I think the only thing that I can respond to this post is:   you said need and video game in the same sentance.

 This thead went on a lot longer than I expected, especially considering smart people like Hegron have succinctly nailed the issues at hand.

Put another way:

• However you define "hardcore player", it probably includes the word "more than most players" somewhere.
• "More than most players" is synonymous with 'niche' and 'minority'.
• Niche means few players.
• MMO means many players.
• It's hard to make a successful niche singleplayer title; it's extremely hard (possibly even foolish) to make a niche massively multiplayer title.

I think that small independant studios can potentially do Niche "hardcore" MMOs in a way that's cheap enough to produce that they manage to be successful (profitable), but the easy money is in selling products that people want to buy.

Basically the best MMOs are the ones which are Accessible without being Shallow.  Deep, but not complicated.  Which is why WOW is successful.

IMO The term hardcore started getting used to describe excessive play / uber skills after Diablo 2

The newbs were softcore / carebears while the true gamers played hardcore mode ( 1 life ) from then on people have always seemed to use the term hardcore when refering to difficult things in games "you would have to be hardcore to get xxxx" , "man I been up all night grinding trying to get this level", " you sir are hardcore :P"

Originally posted by John.A.Zoid

I don't have a problem with creating a game casuals can play but I hate this new thing of dumbing down the game so theres nothing for the hardcore and casuals can get everything.  We've seen this with World of Warcraft where theres nothing really anymore for the hardcore to differentiate themselves from the casual players. Now everyone can have everything and things like epics arn't special anymore and you miss that sense of omg he's badass. In SWG for example there was so much you could do to make yourselves different and the main reason for that is they didn't spoon feed the content to you and you had to work it out for yourselves. The suprising satistics I found of how few people did the things that I did, even other hardcore players and it made me feel proud. However if the game is too easy and thousands upon thousands of people have done that same thing, then you just don't care about doing anything.

Even in TF2 now they looked at how many people had the unlocked weapons and only a small percentage of players did so they decided to change the system to random so everyone had the chance. I just think thats dumb because the hardcore player has to have something to be different from the rest and if everyone had them then they arn't special anymore.

Why should everyone be able to see everything? Alot of people complain about content they wont see but why should they? I just want a game where the time I put into it makes me different and unique so I can feel happy about my character which is important for an mmorpg.

Hardcore doesn't mean anything!  You can be in a casual Rading guild and have hardcore items, accomplishments, armor, etc...  It's about goals.

The term Hardcore is so overly used by the younger kids these days. Hardcore what..? It's not a noun!

I'm casual player yet everyone I know consider me hardcore... only because I never deviate from what i am doing and accomplish things in due order. I don't frit-frat around, nor do I respond or talk to others while playing. I do..!  But at my own pace.

This might have been mentioned before but human psyche works as follows.

Not evryone can succeed, are MMOS turning into Communism online?

Not everyone can become an Elit football player and not everyone can become a mathematical genius.

The same must apply to an MMO world if we have nobody to look up to and be awe struck by, the games hype will just fade away...

Reason sports are so big is that the those modern gladiators do what most of us only dream about doing. Same logic goes for MMOs, if the Industry dosent catch on soon, and  continue to dumb down these games, the mmo market will crash and burn...

Watch and see all of you that dont agree with me... Games need a challenge to spurr people on... It also ceeps the casuals playing as they have somthing/someone to look up to.. Not everyone can be the Alpha dog...its not in the human natur.

Originally posted by Zlayer77

This might have been mentioned before but human psyche works as follows.

Not evryone can succeed, are MMOS turning into Communism online?

Not everyone can become an Elit football player and not everyone can become a mathematical genius.

The same must apply to an MMO world if we have nobody to look up to and be awe struck by, the games hype will just fade away...

Reason sports are so big is that the those modern gladiators do what most of us only dream about doing. Same logic goes for MMOs, if the Industry dosent catch on soon, and  continue to dumb down these games, the mmo market will crash and burn...

Watch and see all of you that dont agree with me... Games need a challenge to spurr people on... It also ceeps the casuals playing as they have somthing/someone to look up to.. Not everyone can be the Alpha dog...its not in the human natur.

 

That you are wrong. In all the single player game, you ARE the hero. People would not pay money to play a game where they can't get the good stuff.

Remember that MMORPGs are NOT real life. They are games and the whole point is to make people have the illusion that they are special.