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Originally posted by Cik_Asalin
The point has already been made: the entire original post was pasted into one of the replies in this thread and INSTEAD of actually arguing it, you have chosen to argue the summary points. And your arguments really don't give any valid reason for being. In short, they are just empty statements lacking merit. If you want to be taken seriously, respond to his full review. And quit with the bloated statements. Sheesh. |
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Originally posted by grimal
Well said, sir. And thanks for the fine read (referencing your original review). I didnt play the game nor follow nearly as long as you, but the game just didn't click with me at all. Add to that the atrocious in-game community and the whole experience felt a little too similiar to some chinese water torture. Back to the point you just made, why is it that he claims SWG or UO are NOT sandboxes? I know it's a bit off-topic but I'd like to see his argument for the case (myabe a new thread?) Anyone who states that the original UO was NOT a sandbox game is beyond reason... hence no matter what evidence is brought to bear, it will result in a futile discussion. Suffice it to say... A person with the stance that UO was NOT a sanbox game will be very lonely in that opinion. |
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Originally posted by grimal
The point has already been made: the entire original post was pasted into one of the replies in this thread and INSTEAD of actually arguing it, you have chosen to argue the summary points. And your arguments really don't give any valid reason for being. In short, they are just empty statements lacking merit. If you want to be taken seriously, respond to his full review. And quit with the bloated statements. Sheesh. Once again, your correct in calling out the flaws and misleading nature of notable points without substantiation. Thank you for making my point. |
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Originally posted by Cik_Asalin
Now you are trolling. The OP's intent (or at least I think it was) is to point out the well thought out review posted in the original DF forums that is now gone without a trace. Because he didn't have said post, he summarized with some short points. Yet, several posts following, the entire article was posted in-full. You chose to attack the summary vs. the review. He offers substantiation in the review. You ignore this and repeatedly reply with "well, it lacks substantiation"..well, we are not talking about the points, we are talking about the review.
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Originally posted by grimal This! |
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WSIMike
 Elite Member
Joined: 3/09/04
Playing: Lineage 2, Dissidia FF |
Originally posted by Cik_Asalin Good grief, man. Cut back on the kool-aid.
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Here's a picture
"When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all." - God |
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WSIMike
Elite Member
Joined: 3/09/04
Playing: Lineage 2, Dissidia FF |
Originally posted by Cik_Asalin I wasn't the the original one i responded to that had to substantiate a pointless statement about i don't like x, i knew it, you knew and now you know it without content within his original post to support the case.
Again, if like a sheep, you might accept a content-less point that's your special right, probably reserved for special folks.
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Koolaider
 Novice Member
Joined: 1/06/07
"FIGHT THE MAN...Harness the power of Breakfast Cereals" |
After reading his thread, I now believe that there is such thing as winning the Internet. |
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I'm permabanned from Forumfall. How childish. 19/02/2009 @11pm - "Your Darkfall preorder was successful!" Ahh, classic Tasos! |
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Originally posted by Hellmoob
Seriously?
For writing that post of yours that is copied onto this thread for all to view for themselves? For that you were perma-banned?
Heh... they are a bit thin-skinned.
They probably didn't like it that it got re-posted so quickly onto this site, unmoderated and other sites. |
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egotrip
 Hard Core Member
Joined: 12/24/08
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. |
Originally posted by Hellmoob /sarcasm on If you wanted to keep your account you should've made a positive quitting thread saying how you can't withtake the awesomness,perfection and "hardcore" nature of the game due to your own WoW carebearness and cookie grinder asian mmo mentality give all your stuff away to [insert random fanboy name here] , receive a public lashing, not log-in until Tasos himself e-mails you himself pardoning you for your transgression and be branded forever as a quiter of the most perfect, feature complete, total epic, awesome ,FFA,fool-loot, MMORPG evar !!!!!!!111 /sarcasm off But seriously now, what did you expect? Well they have your money and since you're obviously not willing to spend more on them and since they're not willing to start listening to any concerns / complaints their playerbase may have about the game because ,and i do quote Tasos here,"the players don't know what they really want".; thus your opinion just became invalid to them , not that it ever did matter to them in the first place but now with your ban it's officially invalid to them. And yes i deliberately misspelled fool-loot .
there are more posts discussing Darkfall than there are people actually playing the useless game |
Originally posted by Hellmoob
Currently playing Real Life.. http://i36.tinypic.com/2uyod3k.gif For all your stalking needs.. |
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So, I’ll come full circle and respond to anything of substance that this guy mentions in this one post rather than bouncing around, leaving out the non-notable and redundant remarks out since those are purely nothing more than bloviating and some of the idiots in this thread are still akin to arguing that an empty remark such as that as ‘this sucks’ is a substantiated one; good luck in your real-life endeavor. But, there are true, false, and misleading points in his the authors departure post. Best post? No way, unless you’ve not see other departure posts and perhaps you might be new to mmorpgs as possibly many of those that visit this forum with a 4,3,2, or 1 month old subscription to might be.
I clocked 786 hours of Darkfall gameplay.
Darkfall is a passable FPS mod with a few bare-bones RPG features tacked on in the grindiest incarnations I’ve ever seen.
>And bare-bones RPG? Well, the players drive their roles and your not pigeon-holed into any one role, but do have the freedom to adopt many in DF. What I don’t have a grasp of is the specific RPG element, unless it might be PvE related, that the author is looking for. Aside from that, you are not going to play this game, as you would other pve-centric mmo’s in the safety of a computer influenced and tethered safety net when other players are around. In other words, your role is only as important or fulfilling as the team that your playing with, and if your not part of a clan for hire, mercs, or an alliance that plays as a group or team, your not going to have any rpg appreciation for DF because there is no code-driven scripted story or path that your character is inclined to take following its creation.
> Grind? Purely subjective and not inconsistent at all with any other mmo on the market. As with other mmo’s, in DF, you have no choice but to incrementally advance in skills or attributes or task oriented things in order to, well, improve and advance. If you want to talk about grind, my god, was getting to jedi in swg a grind.
Without full loot, I’m reasonably sure nobody at all would play.
Better Gathering is all the challenge of having the time to find somewhere quiet and click every now and then, and doesn’t create any sort of contested territories for rare resources.
Crafting is an unintuitive time/resource sink, totally devoid of any semblance of player skill, individuality or genuinely worthwhile outputs. I don’t know if you’ve ever added up the materials for a Full Plate set, but it’s not pretty at all.
PvE is either exploiting or bringing an enormous quantity of people to box/focus fire something (with the possible exception of the Fire Dragon, but I doubt it).
Siege warfare is lag-rape, and the political landscape is a handful of giant unskilled conglomerates plus Afghanistan.
>Secondly, this game does highly depend on player-influenced diplomacy and participation, leaders, soldiers and followers, and the political landscape is a fluid one and will continue to be a fluid one; the political landscape has not be static, but dynamic. I happen to think that with the finite size of the world and finite number of players participating, it does lend itself to a short shelf-life in some respects.
City building is a joke (cannons that shoot at nothing, glaring defensive faults in some major cities), and honestly boats and warhulks are so prohibitively expensive for the value they deliver that only the most wealthy (read: heaviest exploiters) will ever bother with them. I can almost hear the cries of everyone that wanted to be in a pirate clan.
>City building is a guild and alliance commitment and a very involved developmental affair; far from a joke. However, I dont like the static nature of not being able to plan your own city at all and i do not like the lack of ability to place structures with a building zone, where you would want to place them.
>Huh? Cannons that shoot at nothing? I’d really question some of your credibility by that statement alone. Clearly lacking in siege experience if the author has not seen cannons set-up in action to take out enemy forces and defenses.
> And eluding to winners being exploiters? Not only is that completely false, aside from AV addressing exploiters as do any dev's of many mmo's, that ability to bring a WH to a siege didn't result in a win for one alliance that alliance brought it to a recent siege and ended up losing the siege they initiated. The author’s completeness of information is again questionable.
PvP is fun… When you’re not raiding cities overpopulated with attended macroers (or getting zerged 8v1 by an alliance because every time they send one or two guys to kill you, they have to cry in clan chat about how they got slammed). It’s particularly fun if you have the time to invest in Aventurine’s grotesque treadmill skill system, which primarily rewards having a lot of time to jerk off to furry erotica while your character macros (not that I would know, I manual clicked like a chump because I’m too lazy to download AutoIt).
>PvP is fun, but again, character development is no more arduous in DF than in any other mmo; you will no more feel like a gerbil on a wheel in DF than you would to advance your character in any other mmo. The arenas in DF are not developer implemented, their player-implemented, and yes, there is a lot of attended sparring that goes on in this game for skill. There’s no way to eliminate the unattended macroers, which sucks, and this is one of my big disappointments with the game. The virtual world is always on and you can always be in. But regardless, someone is always to have higher skills than me due to them having more play-time, as with any mmo, but the span between those that play more is significantly slanted in favor of those that can macro unattended for very long periods of time, perhaps such as yourself. Should I say goodbye macroer?
This would concern me more if this was a solo game, but that edge that those macroers gain is substantially blunted by the team-combat of this game in most situations where regardless of what your skill is, outcome is a matter of character skill, players skill, augmented items like food and pots, gear, weapon, and situation; not just character skill. None-the-less, I am still not appreciative at all of the ability for players to macro at all, and with the devs attention to skill advancement increase, the void between the macroers and the ones that don’t closes that much more quickly.
The best times I had in Darkfall were small group PvP fights with clanmates where we faced 2v1 or worse odds and ended up with more loot than we could comfortably carry. The problem was, those times were very sparse.
> Two things. Firstly, the world does need to retain its population and see it grow. Secondly, there is no difficulty looking for a fight, ever, at what ever odds you want. The challenge of finding it more immediately as you’d like, is certainly challenged by the seemingly missing player-base to sustain a player-driven world.
AV If you’re going to have a huge, intricate world, you either have to have enough people to fill it and make it vibrant (you don’t) or you need to have areas worth fighting over other than player cities to concentrate the PvPers in those areas (none of those, either).
> Again, we addressed the player-base population so that’s redundant, but if you cant find a guild that has enough leadership to get involved in the diplomacy, politics, raiding or city siegeing aspects of game-play, then either find another group, a more active group, but to claim that there aren’t areas of frequent combat or the ability to drive combat in an open pvp world is absolutely false.
The only places you were almost guaranteed to find other players were easily exploitable high profit spawns, camped out by nakeds with surefire escape routes, or else cities filled with yet more naked people itching to go 5v1 with an Ork in robes.
>A month ago perhaps, regarding exploit, but as mentioned about the attention and frequent updates that the devs have implemented, as would and do devs from any other mmo, this is not prevalent. However, you will still find ‘groups’ of players, as in any other mmo, camping highly profitable mobs still, as its player-nature. Bring your own group and combat them.
The incentive to go out and look for great fights is substantially diminished when you realise it’s almost certainly going to take a few hours to get a good scrap, and some roll patrol is probably going to waste an inordinate amount of that time chasing you.
>Again, false. If anyone is traveling nearly that much, even nearly nearly that much for a good scrap, then you must be playing a different game than I am.
Darkfall? Sandbox? Ultima Online is a sandbox, SW:G is a sandbox. Darkfall is dirt. If you go and read the FAQ for the game that Aventurine said they would be releasing (I believe the entire thing is still on the official site), you’ll read about a sandbox game. A game with features for all kinds of players, a game where opportunities to be successful according to your own goals are virtually limitless, a game that allows both small individualistic clans and larger forces that sway the political landscape to coexist within a vibrant fantasy world. A game with a crafting system that actually rewards those who dedicate themselves to it in terms of their skill as a player, rather than simply the character skill treadmill. Where PvE battles are as enthralling and challenging as their PvP counterparts, and where the environment is as deadly and foreboding as the villainous PKers who inhabit it. A game with racial warfare and unique racial traits, as well as (finally!) a meaningful alignment system. Unique characters developed by an individual’s preference, able to be adapted to changing needs and desires, rather than the homogenous master-of-all-styles that every competitive player now uses, and is encouraged to use by the limitless skill system. A game with minimal grind, where ‘learning by doing’ would be just as effective in the long run as ultra-grinding skills. That may be true in Darkfall, but “the long run” measures in years rather than a few weeks. Can you even imagine getting weapon mastery without hours and hours of unproductive swinging? I really don’t like to think about it.
>My god, that’s a lot of thought crammed into one paragraph. What the author just re-wrote or carried over from the DF site is similar to any mmo’s marketing and promotional fluff found similarly with any of the other overly-hyped mmos by their marketing grunt. Neither UO or SW:G are sandboxes, and either is DF a true sandbox since it lacks many environmental pales and shovels to truly shape the virtual environment are lacking, not to mention that the sandbox term has been so misused for so long, and re-instated by others personal opinions as to what it means, that every person has their own personal spin on, well, what it means.
The fact is that Darkfall made grand promises and delivered hollow stand-ins for those promises. It is, in essence, an FPS in an open world setting, and with lootable items. The primary difference between Darkfall and the standard shooter, aside from the obvious full-loot mechanic, is that there’s no team balancing, no real objective other than “find some other guys and rape ‘em”, and a lot more downtime between bouts of combat. Everything else is ancillary and shoddily created.
>If the author is looking for balance and hand-outs to compensate for lack of skill, then this is the wrong game. That’s the only thing that comes to mind since he/she admits to having played for almost 9 hours a day for 3 months or so, I cant help but imagine that he/she couldn’t have the character skill to withstand the combative nature of the game. And to suggest that the nature of the game simmers down to finding other guys and combating them, well, that is one of several cornerstones of the game regardless of how you go about doing it.
>Aside from that, I am no more disappointed at the DF team than I was at the AoC team for grand promises to bait you into their game, but the difference is that there is so much player-driven content and ability to get involved within DF, that it has kept me distracted from many of the short-falls that might have pushed me out of another mmo.
The Dev team is, honestly, a group of people with good ideas and shitty execution of those ideas, headed up by a man who is frankly a reprehensible liar.
>I have little appreciation for AV, but the content they delivered, admittedly falling way short of expectation, is still the best team and competitive guild-based game platform driven by a player ecosystem on the market, aside from EvE imho.
>DF can only last for as long as the current player-base interest is maintained and then for as long as the political in-game landscape constinues to evolve. If that landscape evolves to fewer but larger factions and alliances, then we’ll have the biggest empty pve mmo on the market. However, for now, its challenges and open design is still keeping my interest.
The rest of the authors bloviating is nothing more than continued drivel and boo hoo, but as his/her points remain the same, so do mine.
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The post above me is long. I wonder what it says. |
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A word of advice: try not to get too riled up by any obnoxious and out of this world statements from a fanboy. I've noticed all decent threads getting derailed in this manner and our favourite mod here loves to use that as an excuse to lock instead of cleaning up or asking us to continue afresh.
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Originally posted by Fariic
Humor award for the day! +1 |
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FAILFALL |
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Short and to the point, the bottom line is not a long winded waah fest. Alot of people feel the game is sub par and garbage. Why defend it to the people that feel this way. Let the game sell itself if it s so good. |
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Originally posted by Hammertime1
Humor award for the day! +1
I might not be all ways right,but i am never wrong.. |
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Originally posted by Fariic
After a really crap day at work this made me laugh. |
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Originally posted by hoopty
I think, sir, you mean 20/10! But, yeah, lots of text, little substance in that post.
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Originally posted by hoopty
4/10 |
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Originally posted by Cik_Asalin --WALL OF STUPID--
You spent HOW long writing this, and it was the best you could do? THIS was the BEST you could do? Oh my. 1. I don't just play the game, I interact with other people. As an ex-member of Murder Herd, I spent all day talking shit on vent with my friends, drinking, and yes, playing Darkfall. I played WoW for 12 or so hours a day for over 3 years, I quit because they ruined the game with expansions that vastly lowered the sense of personal achievement involved in getting high level gear. I am an elitist player, a "powergamer" if you will, and I know how to deal with burning out on MMOs - play them with good people. However, if I can go and play a better game with the same good people, well, I'm going to take that option. Never mind the principal of not giving my money to unprincipled, unscupulous, bumbling idiots like Tasos. Oh, and don't say "If I blahblah", the idea that I'm being compared to you on the internet is insulting and repugnant. 2. I know why it's a first-person oriented game, I was referring to the first-person shooter genre. Perhaps you're familiar with it? Games that are centered entirely around objective based first-person combat, without character progression (or with very limited forms of said, a la COD4 ranks). Jump in, kill people, jump out, go again. I played a lot of FPS's before and between MMORPGs, and I can appreciate the co-incidence of the two mechanics. I don't hate Darkfall combat, I never said I did, I love the small group PvP. I came to Darkfall on the basis of that core feature, but that's not the only reason I wanted to play. Game mechanics need to be in place to give an RPG environment a "sandboxy" feel and "freedom", as you so love to call it. The typical response to "What do I do in DF" is to laugh condescendingly and say "Poor child, it is an RPG sandbox. Do as you want!" Alright then, I'll be a travelling bard, shall I? Okay, so maybe I can't do that. RPG elements need to be supported by the game. In Darkfall you can be a zergling, a mercenary, or something economically focussed. The economy is dull and based purely on the amount of time one is willing to invest in it. There isn't much benefit to be had from having stacks of cash either. A dedicated solo crafter will never get as far as a clan alt who only logs in to turn externally gathered resources into items, because player skill is a totally absent mechanic. Very little in Darkfall is solo-friendly, and very little caters to the desires of individual players. I'll only dignify your "lol grind" response with the fact that Darkfall in the single most level-based game on the market, because there are thousands of brutally dull levels of individual skills to progress through before you can be considered "competitive". If you disagree, go "get shit on" by Shuyin HAIL or Pho Hammar and tell me skills aren't a big deal. I've played Chinese Aion and it was nothing compared to Darkfall. Full loot is the only reason people play, because face it, it feels good to take all the other guy's shit when he dies. It's a mechanic that's almost unique to Darkfall, and the added risk-reward does make PvP a lot more exhilarating and death more meaningful. If Darkfall PvP didn't have full loot, the PvP in the vast majority of FPSs (for FPS combat) and RPGs (for tactical combat) would be far superior. Darkfall's combat isn't complex or challenging in terms of cognition, but success has greater rewards than it would in the vast majority of other games. Perhaps I should extend to say "full loot free for all open world PvP", but I stand by my statement. "I personally", yeah, I'm sure you're being very objective there. In other MMOs there is an element of player skill and knowledge to gathering. You know where the rare spawns are, you know where the low traffic spawns are... In darkfall every node is the same, and it suffers greatly for it. Why go to a dangerous area and mine iron when you can do it right next to a damn tower? There's not even a variation in yield. Darkfall gathering is a basic input-output timesink, and the single most basic, uninventive mechanic they could have conceived to fulfil the purpose. You're right, crafting does behave like any other skill. A linear system with highly limited variation and no player skill. See, I stress "player skill", not character skill. You need to progress the crafting, but you don't even have to be at your keyboard to do it. I don't advocate minigame type systems, but there are far better ways to approach intuitive, skilled crafting. Ask a guy called "Preka", or else check out the MUD "Dragonrealms" to see one. I 'm taking too much time over this as it is. If you don't know how to exploit every mob in the game into ridiculous easymode (cough, launch) then I don't see why you're trying to voice an opinion on PvE. The AI is lobotomized quake bots with shitty "abilities" that are usually of very limited use. If I'm mounted, no mob is ever going to stun me or snare me or DoT me to death... because those things don't exist. Shit walks up to you and punches you a lot, and they compensate for the lack of "real" AI by giving everything ridiculous health pools. Sad, but true. Also "the environment is the players" is the weakest substitute for "the PvE is shit" that I've ever heard. In reponse to sieges: 1. You've clearly never been online when Hyperion participated in a siege... And, while on rubaiyat, you couldn't even use your "rest" function. Their sound engine and their server load-bearing is atrocious. 2. The point about teens vs. teens is moot. We were promised epic siege battles with hundreds per side running smoothly. It was never beta tested, and this is the result. Reap what you sow. Ask Society of the Anvil about cannons that can't see anything worth shooting. I participated in the siege on CoCK's city where the flamethrowers torched close to 50 mounts in a glorious rain of fire... And that's the only kills I've ever seen the city defence weaponry score. Most of them have sorely lacking AoE, are difficult to aim, and until very recently had exceptionally poor damage. Even now I wouldn't be afraid of being within range of a cannon. As for exploiters, both CotC and the Afghans are rampant exploiters, and they freely admit it. Look it up in clan discussion. And Afghanistan didn't take the Warhulk to Mar Shral. They have a Vileforge but they didn't use it. Also, it's "alluding". Get better at English. I made it clear I never unattended macro'd. I did however raise some skills by shooting them at nothing for a very long time. It was the only practical way to do it. And you've clearly never participated in a great deal of group vs group combat if you're saying that character skill is ancillary. It is the primary force at work, and augmented by the usual pots/food/gear, it's the core of PvP. Go run a 10v5 against a few Mercs and see how player skill works out. They're pretty decent players, not stellar, but high character skills ensure that they have the edge they need to beat the vast majority of other groups while outnumbered. "There is no difficulty looking for a fight ever" is just a lie, unless you feel like fighting a city alone. Kindly inform me of these "areas of frequent combat", instead of stating they exist flatly. Also, you "addressed the playerbase population" did you? Where is your data sourced from? We did find farming groups and attack them. They mounted, they ran, we usually killed them all or the vast majority... That's hardly PvP. That's ganking. Getting a bunch of cash for ganking some chumps mana missiling Elfshades isn't very enthralling. Where do the really PvPers fight, pray tell? Yeah, sure, different game, I must've been playing on a different server when I rode for 3 and a half hours to find two 1v1 fights right next to player cities, or crossed Rubaiyat east to west without seeing one other person. UO and SW:G are both sandboxes, because they incorporate a great deal of mechanics that allow for a similar abundance of player freedom. Darkfall does not, it just lets you PvP the shit out of whoever you like and maybe build a city if you nutcup 15 other clans hard enough. How is that a sandbox, and yet UO isn't? Both my character skill and player skill were substantially above average. If I could log in and prove it to you, I would. I was able to withstand everything about the "combative nature" of the game other than the mindless tedium that filled in-between that combat. And to so boldly state that it's "one of several cornerstones", you might want to elaborate the other ones, so as not to look like, oh, someone who can't substantiate their lies. You know, like Tasos. Hahahahaha, and then you put in "aside from EvE", possibly the only other game that meets those specifications. Brilliant. Let me summarise: You have no substantial backing to any of your counterpoints, no evidence and no justification for your bold statements of fact. When you do, write another wall of text for me to spend an hour deconstructing and mocking. Then maybe you'll stop filling this thread with your baseless, subjective brown-nosing of Tasos and take your lack of literary talent to a less "challenging" thread. Love and Waffles, -Hellmoob- NOTE: I'm not going to proofread this wall for typos, sue me. 19/02/2009 @11pm - "Your Darkfall preorder was successful!" Ahh, classic Tasos! |
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cosy
 Master
Joined: 9/15/04
I helped over 300 new players in EvE, how many did you help ? |
Originally posted by parrotpholk google cache link to dead more not just the OP want to try eve-online ? i help you-join eve university,L2P-basic guide if you want to understand EvE-Online |
Haha I rate the rebuttal for that long wall of text as a 2/10..
