I thought this was worth repeating from the news section as it reflects one of the main reasons so many of us complain about the state of MMO’s these days. I doubt many of you will read it through, after all marketing tells the game designers we don’t like to read more than two sentences before we move on!

MMO story writters are being told to forget the naratation, just keep doing more quest steps. This ‘arcade mentality’ as I think of it is removing the RPG out of the games we loved. Does anyone remember Adventure Games, like Monkey Island, virtualy no mainline game software developer makes them these days. Those games players have gone the way of the dodo. And so now so have we, the old MMORPGers who liked the game for the narative, the quest background and other RP and puzzle elements. You did not have to be a roleplayer to like that side of the game but we too have now gone the way of the dodo, our game style culled by arcade players and their infantile preferences.

From – ‘Sanya Weathers's MMO Underbelly: Take This Column To NPC X’

““…..And she remembers the feedback she got when she tried to depart from the FedEx norm. “We'd do a story based low level quest where you'd have special low-level mobs that only popped if you were on the quest. We'd have a special ending where you 'affected the outcome.' There would be special effects. But because it took the player out of the mindset of 'to level I need to go through these kill mob quests and fed ex quests' the results were really hit or miss. Roleplayers loved them. Everyone else hated them, especially the people who were very methodical about getting to the highest level as efficiently as possible.”

That’s the hardest thing about designing MMOs, by the way – people want to get past all of the content as quickly as possible so they can get to (and consume) the “real” content. That “real” content is the least tested and least complete part of the game, but if there’s a way to powerlevel past the tested and polished material, people will find it.

The writers love adding narration and story, but all the feedback indicates less talk, more quest steps. Less story, more 'jobs.'

“And let’s face it. From a development standpoint, it's less time consuming to do those types of quests, and less expensive, because you don't need to hire content devs that can write or narrate.”

Most of the writers I spoke to said the same thing, and furthermore, mentioned a growing trend in the industry of hiring a writer on a consulting basis to do the story bible and the backstory for the website. That material informs the quests, but spares the company the time and expense of having a professional writer in house for the actual gameplay elements.””
 

I don't get the whole "MUST MAX LEVEL" thing. I mean, usually I'm forced there by friends, but otherwise I'd just explore and the like. ( On my first WoW character, I managed to get a mount, and spent a few days exploring the entire world to fill out my map. I was level 45 at the time. =p This was a month or two after release. )

Originally posted by Scot

From – ‘Sanya Weathers's MMO Underbelly: Take This Column To NPC X’

““…..And she remembers the feedback she got when she tried to depart from the FedEx norm. “We'd do a story based low level quest where you'd have special low-level mobs that only popped if you were on the quest. We'd have a special ending where you 'affected the outcome.' There would be special effects. But because it took the player out of the mindset of 'to level I need to go through these kill mob quests and fed ex quests' the results were really hit or miss. Roleplayers loved them. Everyone else hated them, especially the people who were very methodical about getting to the highest level as efficiently as possible.”

That’s the hardest thing about designing MMOs, by the way – people want to get past all of the content as quickly as possible so they can get to (and consume) the “real” content. That “real” content is the least tested and least complete part of the game, but if there’s a way to powerlevel past the tested and polished material, people will find it.
””
 

I wonder who they asked whether or not they liked that quest.
I cannot imagine that everyone but the roleplayers would hate quests which are not such a pointless crap (FedEx).

At least I am no roleplayer and still I am sick of the loads of junk quests in current MMOs.

Originally posted by Devour

I don't get the whole "MUST MAX LEVEL" thing. I mean, usually I'm forced there by friends, but otherwise I'd just explore and the like. ( On my first WoW character, I managed to get a mount, and spent a few days exploring the entire world to fill out my map. I was level 45 at the time. =p This was a month or two after release. )

Then you don't understand human psychology. It is about feeling powerful and better than others.

Sure, it is an illusion but our minds cannot distinguish. You wan to be L80, because it feels much better than 79, particularly with that new spell to kill stuff with.

Originally posted by Scot

I thought this was worth repeating from the news section as it reflects one of the main reasons so many of us complain about the state of MMO’s these days. I doubt many of you will read it through, after all marketing tells the game designers we don’t like to read more than two sentences before we move on!

MMO story writters are being told to forget the naratation, just keep doing more quest steps. This ‘arcade mentality’ as I think of it is removing the RPG out of the games we loved. Does anyone remember Adventure Games, like Monkey Island, virtualy no mainline game software developer makes them these days. Those games players have gone the way of the dodo. And so now so have we, the old MMORPGers who liked the game for the narative, the quest background and other RP and puzzle elements. You did not have to be a roleplayer to like that side of the game but we to have now gone the way of the dodo, our game style culled by arcade players and their infantile preferences.

From – ‘Sanya Weathers's MMO Underbelly: Take This Column To NPC X’

““…..And she remembers the feedback she got when she tried to depart from the FedEx norm. “We'd do a story based low level quest where you'd have special low-level mobs that only popped if you were on the quest. We'd have a special ending where you 'affected the outcome.' There would be special effects. But because it took the player out of the mindset of 'to level I need to go through these kill mob quests and fed ex quests' the results were really hit or miss. Roleplayers loved them. Everyone else hated them, especially the people who were very methodical about getting to the highest level as efficiently as possible.”

That’s the hardest thing about designing MMOs, by the way – people want to get past all of the content as quickly as possible so they can get to (and consume) the “real” content. That “real” content is the least tested and least complete part of the game, but if there’s a way to powerlevel past the tested and polished material, people will find it.

The writers love adding narration and story, but all the feedback indicates less talk, more quest steps. Less story, more 'jobs.'

“And let’s face it. From a development standpoint, it's less time consuming to do those types of quests, and less expensive, because you don't need to hire content devs that can write or narrate.”

Most of the writers I spoke to said the same thing, and furthermore, mentioned a growing trend in the industry of hiring a writer on a consulting basis to do the story bible and the backstory for the website. That material informs the quests, but spares the company the time and expense of having a professional writer in house for the actual gameplay elements.””
 

I think what is to be taken from this is that players don't like looking at a wall of text. But breaking the quest down into quest steps or giving information in smaller chunks works better. The quest steps don't have to be "kill 10 boars".

And that really makes sense. Video games tend to be a bit more dynamic and the interaction is more interactive than a book.

Reading large amounts of info on a computer screen (to me) is more awkward than reading it from a printed document or one that I can hold in my hand.

But no, one doesn't have to take from that that all quests have to be simple repetitive kill quests.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

 

Then you don't understand human psychology. It is about feeling powerful and better than others.

Sure, it is an illusion but our minds cannot distinguish. You wan to be L80, because it feels much better than 79, particularly with that new spell to kill stuff with.

This guy is totaly right but isnt my only reason to get max lvl.  In games with a level cap I like to get there get it out of the way casue I like to PvP and you cant beat a max lvl player if you arent max lvl as well.  In some games where the max lvl is near impossible to reach or there is no cap just retarded amounts of exp to gain a level then its all about the mighty powers :P

You are wrong Sovrath, I wish you were not, but the drive here is for nothing more complex than a ten year old could understand. If as you think more complex quests were being broken up into more steps that would be fine. But that is not happening, they are binning the more complex quest design for a simplistic multi step ‘give the player donkeys another carrot’ approach.

What you suggest is actually a fine way of breaking up that wall of text feeling. But that’s not the driving force here; it is being driven by the lowest common player denominator and a desire to drive costs down.
 

Originally posted by Scot
What you suggest is actually a fine way of breaking up that wall of text feeling. But that’s not the driving force here; it is being driven by the lowest common player denominator and a desire to drive costs down. 

That just seems like an overdramatic grognard-y way of looking at things.

Think of it this way:

You're watching your favorite TV show (or movie) and BAM - there's a big wall of text to read.  It's backstory on onscreen character -- it's good writing, even -- but it's abruptly disrupting the pace of the show.  Furthermore, the info from the text probably would've worked better if they'd naturally worked it into the performance: an offhand comment about a no-nonsense character's "wild college days" paints a vivid picture in our imaginations much faster than reading about the antics in text.

It's the same in games.  You're inside this beautiful, colored world.  Being confronted with a text box disrupts the immersiveness of being inside a living, real world - because it doesn't conform with what we actually experience in reality (ie text boxes don't appear in front of your face all the time in real life.)

Despite a lack of text boxes, the best TV Shows have interesting situations, characters, and plots.  MMOs will eventually learn to provide a similarly interesting experience with as few text box interruptions as possible (perhaps advanced text-to-speech tech for the writers to use.)

And when that happens anyone who longs for the "text boxes of old" would be likened to someone longing for the old text boxes in silent movies.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Despite a lack of text boxes, the best TV Shows have interesting situations, characters, and plots.  MMOs will eventually learn to provide a similarly interesting experience with as few text box interruptions as possible (perhaps advanced text-to-speech tech for the writers to use.)

And when that happens anyone who longs for the "text boxes of old" would be likened to someone longing for the old text boxes in silent movies.

Can you give an example? IMO your analogy is terribly flawed.

MMO's can never provive a similarly interesting experience as TV shows.

They don't tell stories the same way. TV is passive. I just sit there and watch the story unfold. I don't participate or expect to. I have zero input, and zero effect on what's happening on the screen.

Games are different. I actively participate in the story in the game. I kill things, I craft things, I organize guilds, I buy things, I sell things, I socialize with other players.

How can you use an active medium to provide a passive experience? I'm not going to sit there and absorb the story in an MMO, I want to make the story.

The points are valid but a bit skewed imo. If you build a game which is based upon leveling and acquiring newer items you must then expect the audience to value those things which will get them there the fastest: quests, grinding, power leveling, etc. Don't hate the player, hate the game is a more appropriate response as modern MMO's have put an emphasis on progression whether level based, or item based. The only MMORPG type games I have played where I didn't feel the necessity to use "fed ex" quests was Ultima Online and other skill based games that felt more immersive and less like a logic statement. IF I do this quest, then I'll get this much XP. Skill based games or other metrics of progression feel more like a sandbox game and therefore eliminate some of this mentality of questing for experience only.

There is a market for both the MMO instant gratification quest --> quest --> quest, as well as the more open ended exploration types. I love fantasy and roleplaying but also appreciate progression. If a developer makes a game that does not make the end game a race to the highest level or shiniest gear then roleplaying and "natural" quests can take place. If they build a game where you become an uber high end raiding god at level 100 with shiny gear then they know what to expect.

Conclusion: Multiple MMO's can cater to different audiences. Sure the instant quest gratification ones might have a larger audience with short attention spans, but there is certainly a market out there for the roleplayers who actually enjoy the journey of the game.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Axehilt

Despite a lack of text boxes, the best TV Shows have interesting situations, characters, and plots.  MMOs will eventually learn to provide a similarly interesting experience with as few text box interruptions as possible (perhaps advanced text-to-speech tech for the writers to use.)

And when that happens anyone who longs for the "text boxes of old" would be likened to someone longing for the old text boxes in silent movies.

 

Can you give an example? IMO your analogy is terribly flawed.

MMO's can never provive a similarly interesting experience as TV shows.

They don't tell stories the same way. TV is passive. I just sit there and watch the story unfold. I don't participate or expect to. I have zero input, and zero effect on what's happening on the screen.

Games are different. I actively participate in the story in the game. I kill things, I craft things, I organize guilds, I buy things, I sell things, I socialize with other players.

How can you use an active medium to provide a passive experience? I'm not going to sit there and absorb the story in an MMO, I want to make the story.

Completely agree with everything you said.

This thread got me thinking, tho. I still have to say that out of all the MMOs out that I enjoyed the quest system in Asheron's Call much moreso than any other game that forcefeeds them to you in order to level and gear up effeciently. Quests shouldn't be the main way to advance your character or story. Live events work much better for revealing and playing out a story line, there's just too few games that have done it.

When I first logged into WOW I didn't really know what to expect all those years back. I actually kind of enjoyed the ! and ?, but after running through 30 or so levels of it, it turned into nothing but staring at the mini-map whenever inside a town/outpost to have them direct me where to go. It completely kills the immersion when the creators have pre-planned your adventures. It's nice, it's easy, but it's not fun. And focusing on how to improve on quest-based leveling systems, and the quests themself because the game relies on them so much, is the wrong direction to go.

There are ways to motivate players to travel to certain areas and explore them, ways to encourage players to kill certain named critters, or gather certain materials, or do whatever, without putting a ! in the middle of the game that upon right clicking on it tells you how to play the game, where to go, what to do. Countless older-gen MMOs motivated players to fully explore content without having to depend on a quest-based system. They also offered that without turning it into nothing but an open world designed for nothing but a war-zone between players (Darkfall). You can have a very decent PVE (or PVP) game full of rich content without shoving it down our throats.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Scot
What you suggest is actually a fine way of breaking up that wall of text feeling. But that’s not the driving force here; it is being driven by the lowest common player denominator and a desire to drive costs down. 

That just seems like an overdramatic grognard-y way of looking at things.

Think of it this way:

You're watching your favorite TV show (or movie) and BAM - there's a big wall of text to read.  It's backstory on onscreen character -- it's good writing, even -- but it's abruptly disrupting the pace of the show.  Furthermore, the info from the text probably would've worked better if they'd naturally worked it into the performance: an offhand comment about a no-nonsense character's "wild college days" paints a vivid picture in our imaginations much faster than reading about the antics in text.

It's the same in games.  You're inside this beautiful, colored world.  Being confronted with a text box disrupts the immersiveness of being inside a living, real world - because it doesn't conform with what we actually experience in reality (ie text boxes don't appear in front of your face all the time in real life.)

Despite a lack of text boxes, the best TV Shows have interesting situations, characters, and plots.  MMOs will eventually learn to provide a similarly interesting experience with as few text box interruptions as possible (perhaps advanced text-to-speech tech for the writers to use.)

And when that happens anyone who longs for the "text boxes of old" would be likened to someone longing for the old text boxes in silent movies.

I disagree that this carries across to games or that it is even universally true of TV.
 

For example, when reading a newspaper I quickly scan for interesting articles, can get more detail and read a lot more than I would in the same time watching some announcer read the news. 

Things like mouseover help and links to more detailed help text is faster and quicker than any  onscreen video presentation.

I have played a few rpg's where the quest is driven by video.  A lot of people love this and the ambience it creates.  However, it also takes a long time compared to reading the same information by scanning text. While I love the video sequences for quests, this would quickly bore me if every quest makes me sit through a video sequence at start and completion.  I prefer a mix, with the majority of quests as text and some quests with video sequences.  The other problem with video is that if you need to refresh your memory, you usually have to re-watch the whole video sequence, whereas with text you can jump straight to the key information.    LoTRO is an example of a game that already has video sequences for some of its storylines and key quests.

It is also only a matter of time before someone improves on quests and sets a new standard for how they are experienced and presented. Who knows what the next step will be from the current quest logs and quest interfaces.

I have no doubt, that it will become standard for there to be more video sequences than in most of the current games.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp 

 

Can you give an example? IMO your analogy is terribly flawed.
MMO's can never provive a similarly interesting experience as TV shows.
They don't tell stories the same way. TV is passive. I just sit there and watch the story unfold. I don't participate or expect to. I have zero input, and zero effect on what's happening on the screen.
Games are different. I actively participate in the story in the game. I kill things, I craft things, I organize guilds, I buy things, I sell things, I socialize with other players.
How can you use an active medium to provide a passive experience? I'm not going to sit there and absorb the story in an MMO, I want to make the story.

Well text boxes are passive.

You hopefully agree that having text (passive) in TV Shows (passive) would be bad.

Wouldn't you consider it worse for text boxes (passive) to be in games (active)?

I think the genre can go in two different directions, much like non-MMO RPGs:

First would be passive stories in the vein of JRPGs (Final Fantasy) and Guild Wars PVE.  In these stories your actions are partially taken out of your control but you get the benefit of a strongly presented storyline.  Granted the quality of plot -- as in all gaming -- is very difficult to manage correctly.

Which is probably why many of western gamers tend to prefer the second direction...open worlds (Oblivion, Fallout 3, WOW, WAR, etc)

There are advantages to each.  I thought it was pretty cool to see my MMO character actually conversing with main NPCs in Guild Wars - it gave my character's actions a lot more impact.  But the story was static.  Give the same idea to the folks at Bioware and have them apply Mass Effect style dialog, with the story changing depending on your choices, and you'd have one possible evolution of the genre (and given the choice-intensive focus of the MMO they're working on, this might be vaguely similar to what they're attempting.)

With open worlds, it's really easy to imagine all sorts of open activities in that game world that don't require spamming the user with a text box to kick things off.  For starters, WAR's Public Quests could be expanded to create all kinds of interesting activities.  Also I could see NPCs entering an Oblivion-style tavern and automatically have their quest log updated based on rumors heard inside the tavern.

Really the best solutions to this problems are the ones that keep the action going.  Where you can keep moving and acting in the game world while the villain spews his insults, inadvertantly giving hints to the player's party about where the next leg of the quest is (which an allied NPC might verbally speak about once the battle is over.)

It'll all still be tracked in some quest log somewhere, but if you want you could ignore that entirely and just play the game (albeit probably still chasing yellow waypoints on your minimap.)

max lvl makes big difference in mmo's that actually reward people for it.

I don’t think Axehilt is getting the right picture here. Text boxes are just a way of communicating information to a player in the game. Yes you could use more video intensive or more subtle methods. But that is not the concern here. With the drive to dumb down story that’s going on in current MMO’s we are not going to be getting large text boxes, video sequences or anything else that detracts from the ‘next step carrot’.

But I agree it would be nice to have more than just text boxes to convey large amounts of information.
 

Simplified, the problem becomes:

• Players don't want a crappy story, but they do want gameplay.
• Games are active experiences, so passive text boxes ruin gameplay.

Take the story out of text boxes and into the game itself, and players won't reject it.  Doesn't mean you should skimp on making the reward structure very clear (because having a clear "You do this; you get this" setup is what quests do best; and it'd be easy to lose focus on that if you were a MMO trying to steer away from text boxes.)

The tricks to taking the story into the game itself are similar to those used in TV/Movies.  It only takes a few choice bubble-chat or voiceover lines said by a given NPC to paint a vivid impression of that NPC's history or motivations.

I'd cite Dawn of War's unit responses as a great example (though I'm a little biased, as a coworker of mine did the ones for Soulstorm and wrote Ode to Short Dialog, an article which appeared in Game Developer/Gamasutra.)  Few unit responses are typical "Attack order acknowledged" faire; instead the majority of lines give a lot of insight into the motivations and attitude of each unit:

• "Lapdogs of the False Emperor!" -Chaos, upon sighting Space Marine foes.
• "As you wish, but set us loose!" -Chaos Khorne Berserker squad
• "All who love live, fear the reaper" -Eldar Dark Reaper squad
• "A bigger cage...I can't even see the bars!" -Dark Eldar Tortured Slave, upon creation

This is the style of dialog I'd expected an MMO to use if it was trying to do away with text boxes.  So basically instead of a text box to convey the story behind a quest, you'd have WAR Public Quest-style (formalized quest/reward system) locations in the game world.  In these locations, the environment and NPC layout itself would often communicate a ton about the situation, and short NPC dialog (or chat-bubbles) would do the rest.

Because if you enter town and see one side of it overrun by dead peasant corpses, and witness a peasant die after being attacked by a Plague Rat, you don't need a 2 paragraph quest description to figure out what's up.