Originally posted by Superman0X

Originally posted by Brain-dead

I guess that depends on how you define RMT...IMO, buying a costume piece in City of Heroes when there are thousands of free ones available doesnt make the game RMT. It is still a subscription game. And you cannot buy advancement with money.

 

That is like saying:

I dont buy stuff online, I just use Ebay.

 

RMT is the METHOD that is used to do business, not the results.

Non-sense,if a player in WoW pays to change his name or pays to mover server then that doesnt effect me playing against him but once he starts this,I quote from the OP here

"If I happen to decide I want to pick up the pace by buying a better weapon, some bonus XP potions or whatever, I really don't see that as constituting a problem for anyone else."

Then it does effect when I am playing against him,so no not all RMT is the same.

ps.

on a side note  Aihoshi why not just pay for a leveling service while you are at it, then buy all the end game gear,that way you dont have to goto the trouble of even playing the game,save's alot of time and you can just brag how great you are 

I would assume some form of RMT is inevitable for the sole reason that its already occuring as a result of third party sites.  So businesses see that and since there is right now in every P2P game people who do buy currency and items (even though one would like to pretend there are not) the gaming companies are simply taking back the business which was theirs to start with.  So rmt in P2P makes sense to me although others cry foul it does from the company's perspecitve make sense and heck its a lot safter for those users that engage in that stuff.   Since I have never found a need to spend money in P2P games outside of a subscription I will be no more or less affected by these stores, but those that are taking risks are in fact being given a more secure means to do this which is a good thing for them.

As for it becoming a trend.  I think its already a trend as all the major game creators (including the beloved blizzard who can do no wrong) are doing it.   Its here already and the trend has been set.  

I still would rather play a subscription based game with some RMT items like potions on the side or other items which I can get either by grinding or paying cash then play the F2P game where the cost at times seems to go up at an alarmingly fast rate in some cases because all gear needs to be purchased that way.   Granted not all F2P games are like that, but unfortunately the ones I was actually interested in were like that.

 When it comes to MMOs, if you didn't earn it, you shouldn't have it. Sob story about time/earning your money/blah blah blah, too bad. There's little point to an MMO if you can just buy your way through as everything becomes trivialized. Cosmetic items/house items I don't see a problem with, but once you start buying items with in-game equivilents, or when superior cash shop items arise/become required, it's over the top. The TCGs I personally see as a fools errand, because while the games can be fun, and the loot cards are mostly benign (at least in EQ2, the SWG ones I've heard are pretty damn game breaking), I can't see how anyone could attach that much value to cards of which you have no physical copy of, and that are essentially randomly generated when you buy them. In other words, you're paying $2.99 for their server to copy/paste 8 random cards. I can't see that as anything but being ripped off.

Hmmm paying real money for digital 1's and 0's you will never own. No thanks.

That's true, games are meant to be played and are meant to be fun. That does not invalidate the fact that people are going out and spending money to mitigate certain aspects of these games. ... And the point of the matter is that no matter what you or anyone else things about whether it is fun or not to use real money to bypass parts of the game, people are doing it.

The fact that they can buy their way ahead of me makes the game less fun for me. Does my fun count too?

People are circumventing the rules right now only because they can get away with it. RMT advocates want to make it legal to do that within the game. I want to make it HARDER to circumvent the rules, not easier.

It is not out of the realm of feasibility that a company, seeing that people are spending money on these secondary companies, would like to take that money for themselves...

Is it worth losing their subscriber base over?

More than likely they are doing it to bypass the things that they don't think are fun in order to get to the parts where they do think the fun is.

So if the only way I can have fun is playing in God mode, does that justify me hacking the game to allow me to do whatever I want? Gimme a break. Rules exist for a reason. No rules would be less fun.

"We would never use rmt...." then you go on the internet and there are thriving rmt sites.

Where are these thriving RMT games at? Show me a few.

All the best MMOs use a subscription model. RMT is niche at best.

RMT is the METHOD that is used to do business, not the results.

In this context they are one in the same, because the RMT model gives some players an advantage over others. It is no longer about skill or time.

The issue is not really even about the money, but the effect the money has on the game. In a subscription model, there is the perception (real or imagined) that there is a level playing field. Even if there is not, it is still better than the RMT alternative IMO.

Originally posted by reanor

 

---

Originally posted by Brain-dead
What is it with Richard Aihoshi and his petty hatred of the subscription model? First his boner for F2P, and now this.
Sorry, but its popular because it works. I dont like the idea of people being able to pay for in-game advantages. Thats why all the best MMOs are subscription.
 
MMOs trace back to table-top RPGs (been a couple steps in-between, of course). I don't ever remember someone handing the DM at a gaming session $5 so they can simply, "magically" acquire a better sword, or armor, or get faster xp. The point of it all was to *play*, to adventure and explore and have fun no matter what you were doing. It wasn't to "race to level cap as fast as possible so you could move on to the next game".
Heh heh, owned. That about sums up my opinion as well.
If you want to do whatever you want, why play an MMO at all? Just play a single player game in co-op mode. The reason most people play MMOs is the fame factor, and RMT/F2P/whatever is a way of cheating in that regard. You are buying fame. People with money get an advantage.
And I think most people who play MMOs understand that implicitly. Which is why those models will never be more than a niche. Subscription isnt necessarily a level playing field, but it is the closest thing we have seen to one so far.

---

 

There is a problem though. Players in MMOs these days tend to gett hrough the content as fast as possible to get to the end-game that most of the time in new released MMOs is unfinished and unpolished. Can you give me an example of a really enjoyable MMO (except LOTRO) that game actually focuses on your 'journey' to level cap. This example with table-top game would be awesome if developers really cared about the time that we actually spend to get to level cap and the end game content. In todays MMOs most focus is on PvP, Quests are repetitive, redundant gameplay, simply not fun.

Final Fantasy XI is all about the journey.  Of course, you said "really enjoyable", which is subjective. Still, I would say FFXI definitely qualifies. Anarchy Online *used* to be about the journey - there is/was tons of things to do in that game even after you'd gotten to high levels. Asheron's Call 2, for as long as it lasted, was about the journey... not a race to end-game. Basically, most MMOs that came out pre-WoW at least had more focus on the journey, even if they weren't entirely about it.

The problem as I see it is, people are playing MMOs like single-player games now. They don't start them intending to be in it for the "long haul" (with some exceptions), but to get through them and "beat them" as fast as possible so they can move on to the next one. MMOs have almost become a disposable product, so to speak, which is the antithesis of what they were conceived as.

 

Originally posted by DarkRexx

Originally posted by qombi

Originally posted by DarkRexx

It's hilarious how many mmo players love to make companies into some sort of Lex Luthor-esque bad guy because they offer premium services through micro transactions or outside product codes i.e. WoW TCG loot cards. The truth is, is that wanting to make lots of money through selling cash shop only items to players doesn't make a company 'evil' or 'greedy'. It makes them a 'company'.

Personally I don't see a problem with offering extra content through a RMT system, wether or not the premiums are cosmetic or character-enhancing. If it's some person's idea of fun to plunk down 20$ to buy some hawt gear for thier character so they can hang with thier higher-level friends and not get mauled (or grief some noob in pvp, or WHATEVER the reason REALLY doesn't matter) then why should anyone care? If the game stops being fun because of a poorly-implemented cash shop, you don't have to get your spending impulse fix at that particular game. If the mmo doomsday prophets are right (they're not) and RMT destroys every single half-decent game to be released in the near future, therby damning the MMO industry, then just go play some single player games on your PC and/or console of choice, but before you do, remember that lots of those games also offer 'premium content for a nominal fee' as well.  

 

You can keep your "premium services" thank you. I will continue to you know PLAY games for items. I don't consider swiping my credit card for an item a fun game tactic to obtain an item. In fact that isn't a game at all anymore. I think all of you are missing the points of GAMES, they are meant to be played. I guess swiping a credit card to you is fun. Games are about gameplay, if a game is unfun to you then play a different one. You people sure are illogical in the way you "play" games. 

I will make a new fun game online for all of you to play. The object of the game is to swipe your credit card as many times as you can to obtain items and then sit in the town and stare at yourself. It's a blast!

 

Why does it bother you that some people choose to pay for items off of a cash shop? It's not like I'm condoning third party services that just as often rip you off as deliver whatever service they've promised (gold, power-leveling, big tits, what-have-you). 

I think your issue is that you like to put a lot of game time into earning things for your avatar, whatever game you happen to be playing, and that the fact is that there are other people out there that think to themselves, "Gee, I sure don't have a lot of time and/or  patience to earn level (fill in the blank) and I'd really like to start having some MMO fun. But luckily there's this nifty little cash shop that sells EXP gain potions and items that ensure my gear wont explode from trying to enchant it . Also I want cat ears." So, you notice this and because you feel a sense of accomplishment for earning your items through the tried and true method of grinding ad nauseum, you go off on a tanget like an old man yelling about 'work ethic'.

The Fact Of The Matter is this: When you play a subscription game, you're paying for content you have to work to earn. When you use a RMT service provided by the company, you're getting what you pay for right away instead of having to grind like a mother in order to earn it. You end up spending roughly the same amount of money either way, and I'm not sure why you dislike people because your sense of fun is different than others.

 

 

You obviously can not understand my point so I will not explain it further. If you do not get it by now, continue to "play" your game with your credit card. I find it illogical to play a GAME that I do not have time for nor enjoy so I pay for items instead of playing it myself. That is the silliest thing I have ever heard. If I felt I didn't have enough time to play a game I would quit, it's very simple. I would go to something I had time to you know actually PLAY considering that is why you buy games.

Edit: So your logic is, with a subscription based MMO GAME you PLAY  to get items. If that said game has virtual items for cash then you get to bypass PLAYING the GAME by pulling out your credit card and obtaining the items. Just wow .... you may want to take a step back and read what you wrote. You do realize these are games right and in games that is what you do is play them?

Why even play if you don't want to? I should created an MMO where you sit in town and put in your credit card information to get items and then you stand there and stare at it.  Games are meant to be played, if the game play isn't fun then quit. Some people need to take a step back and realize what games are.

Originally posted by eHero

I'm surprised anyone would look at something that works in other countries and then look at America and say, "Sure! It's inevitable!"  There've been better ideas that didn't hold water here.  Let's name some.

The metric system. 

The electric car (except the gas prices changed that finally). 

Bullet trains. 

From everything I've read, gamers in asian countries tend to be more cooperative and team-centered.  Whereas in the U.S. there's a larger trend toward individualism.  To me, even if a game doesn't put me in direct competition with someone else (via pvp), I'm still in competition with them as far as level and item gains go.  I'm proud of the fact that I've got Shiny Sword of Pigmailia on my max level toon, because I know how hard I had to "work" to get it.  And as well, if I see someone with something even better, there's a little awe for what they, likewise, were able to accomplish.

Now, give people the ability to speed through levels or gain cool looking items just by buying them with real money, that kind of thing sours me on the entire experience.  Now I don't know if that person with the awesome hammer actually earned it, or paid for it with dollars. 

Again, most of this is just my opinion, but I hope to not have to play a game where the richer person wins or has the ability to win based solely on his real world wealth. 

I concur.

I dont understand how anyone would ever consider spending real money on buying ingame stuff. I mean, the whole point of the game is to COMPETE with your skill, not your wallet. Its like buying olympic gold medal. Whats the point if you haven't earned it? And I am not even talking about how this affects those that do NOT want to spend money. The author's logic puzzles me because he somehow does not sees this. Makes me wonder if this is the beginning of the RMT promotion campaign by a gaming group or something. How would you, having bought godly sword of destruction, NOT affect me if I am not able to buy it or earn it? If you want to explore and not level, then you have no right to complain that you are X levels below me if all I did is level and not explore.

I won't mind (like so many others) if RMT items were pure cosmetics, but I would not support it because the lne between cosmetic and non-cosmetic items is just too thin. Devs will always be tempted to cross it. At first its cosmetic items, eye candy. Then its potion, you know, nothing serious. Yeah sure they do give u exp bonus, but thats not a big bonus. Then comes the items and thats the end of it.

Any kind of purchase of in-game items for real currency IS affecting those that do not want to spend their money. There is just no way around it, however eloquently you write your article.

For me its simple - I see micro-transactions and I stop reading.

Simple...

Originally posted by qombi

Originally posted by DarkRexx

Originally posted by qombi

Originally posted by DarkRexx

It's hilarious how many mmo players love to make companies into some sort of Lex Luthor-esque bad guy because they offer premium services through micro transactions or outside product codes i.e. WoW TCG loot cards. The truth is, is that wanting to make lots of money through selling cash shop only items to players doesn't make a company 'evil' or 'greedy'. It makes them a 'company'.

Personally I don't see a problem with offering extra content through a RMT system, wether or not the premiums are cosmetic or character-enhancing. If it's some person's idea of fun to plunk down 20$ to buy some hawt gear for thier character so they can hang with thier higher-level friends and not get mauled (or grief some noob in pvp, or WHATEVER the reason REALLY doesn't matter) then why should anyone care? If the game stops being fun because of a poorly-implemented cash shop, you don't have to get your spending impulse fix at that particular game. If the mmo doomsday prophets are right (they're not) and RMT destroys every single half-decent game to be released in the near future, therby damning the MMO industry, then just go play some single player games on your PC and/or console of choice, but before you do, remember that lots of those games also offer 'premium content for a nominal fee' as well.  

 

You can keep your "premium services" thank you. I will continue to you know PLAY games for items. I don't consider swiping my credit card for an item a fun game tactic to obtain an item. In fact that isn't a game at all anymore. I think all of you are missing the points of GAMES, they are meant to be played. I guess swiping a credit card to you is fun. Games are about gameplay, if a game is unfun to you then play a different one. You people sure are illogical in the way you "play" games. 

I will make a new fun game online for all of you to play. The object of the game is to swipe your credit card as many times as you can to obtain items and then sit in the town and stare at yourself. It's a blast!

 

Why does it bother you that some people choose to pay for items off of a cash shop? It's not like I'm condoning third party services that just as often rip you off as deliver whatever service they've promised (gold, power-leveling, big tits, what-have-you). 

I think your issue is that you like to put a lot of game time into earning things for your avatar, whatever game you happen to be playing, and that the fact is that there are other people out there that think to themselves, "Gee, I sure don't have a lot of time and/or  patience to earn level (fill in the blank) and I'd really like to start having some MMO fun. But luckily there's this nifty little cash shop that sells EXP gain potions and items that ensure my gear wont explode from trying to enchant it . Also I want cat ears." So, you notice this and because you feel a sense of accomplishment for earning your items through the tried and true method of grinding ad nauseum, you go off on a tanget like an old man yelling about 'work ethic'.

The Fact Of The Matter is this: When you play a subscription game, you're paying for content you have to work to earn. When you use a RMT service provided by the company, you're getting what you pay for right away instead of having to grind like a mother in order to earn it. You end up spending roughly the same amount of money either way, and I'm not sure why you dislike people because your sense of fun is different than others.

 

 

 

You obviously can not understand my point so I will not explain it further. If you do not get it by now, continue to "play" your game with your credit card. I find it illogical to play a GAME that I do not have time for nor enjoy so I pay for items instead of playing it myself. That is the silliest thing I have ever heard. If I felt I didn't have enough time to play a game I would quit, it's very simple. I would go to something I had time to you know actually PLAY considering that is why you buy games.

I understand your point pretty well. You like to play games that encourage you to earn your character's prestige, and you feel that if people don't do that they're cheating themselves. I think you're just saying I can't understand and that you're not going to explain it further because you really can't extrapolate on a subject you haven't even made clear in the first place.
All you've been doing is saying "I am having FUN doing it my WAY and I don't SEE how you're having FUN, SO you're a moron and I SHALL scorn YOU with half-assed SARCASM." When anyone offers a counter-point, you just treat them like a moron because they don't agree with you and repeat the same message in so many words. I also think it's kind of strange how you assume I play micro games even though I  haven't said as much and although I have tried them, I don't use the item malls and I'm not really playing one now. My fave games so far have been WoW, Darkfall, and Warhammer Online.

All I'm saying is...

Sorry, I just lost interest in this topic. Defending RMT is like yelling at people from on top of a pile of crap and wondering why everyone thinks you smell.

Originally posted by DarkRexx

Originally posted by qombi

 

You can keep your "premium services" thank you. I will continue to you know PLAY games for items. I don't consider swiping my credit card for an item a fun game tactic to obtain an item. In fact that isn't a game at all anymore. I think all of you are missing the points of GAMES, they are meant to be played. I guess swiping a credit card to you is fun. Games are about gameplay, if a game is unfun to you then play a different one. You people sure are illogical in the way you "play" games. 

I will make a new fun game online for all of you to play. The object of the game is to swipe your credit card as many times as you can to obtain items and then sit in the town and stare at yourself. It's a blast!

 

Why does it bother you that some people choose to pay for items off of a cash shop? It's not like I'm condoning third party services that just as often rip you off as deliver whatever service they've promised (gold, power-leveling, big tits, what-have-you). 

I think your issue is that you like to put a lot of game time into earning things for your avatar, whatever game you happen to be playing, and that the fact is that there are other people out there that think to themselves, "Gee, I sure don't have a lot of time and/or  patience to earn level (fill in the blank) and I'd really like to start having some MMO fun. But luckily there's this nifty little cash shop that sells EXP gain potions and items that ensure my gear wont explode from trying to enchant it . Also I want cat ears." So, you notice this and because you feel a sense of accomplishment for earning your items through the tried and true method of grinding ad nauseum, you go off on a tanget like an old man yelling about 'work ethic'.

Why do you need to depict it as "an issue" for someone to find the process of earning their in-game items instead of buying them? Your idea of fun might be "having" those items with as little effort as possible. For other people, obtaining those items is part of playing the game... part of the fun. To characterize a gameplay preference as "an issue" is pretty narrow-minded.

The Fact Of The Matter is this: When you play a subscription game, you're paying for content you have to work to earn. When you use a RMT service provided by the company, you're getting what you pay for right away instead of having to grind like a mother in order to earn it. You end up spending roughly the same amount of money either way, and I'm not sure why you dislike people because your sense of fun is different than others.

No.. the "Fact of the Matter" is, when you pay a subscription game, you're paying for the service, for the ability to log in and play, be it to run quests all day, hunt for items, raid non-stop, or just stand around and chat. What content you decide to go after is up to you. The idea behind a game is to provide a challenge... to win the game, be the "last one standing", or what have you. In MMOs, you set goals for what you  want to achieve through your character and then proceed to *play the game* to achieve those goals. Some of those goals include obtaining good gear for your character. If it's a meaningful achievement, then what's wrong with having to put some effort into obtaining it?

When I look at some of items I've acquired, or achievements I've earned in FFXI, for example, I think back on the experiences fondly.. of the difficulty I had achieving those goals, tough fights, close-calls, difficult quests, the fun I had with the people who helped me, etc. etc. It gives those items and those achievements meaning beyond just what stat boosts they give me. What kind of satisfaction is there, other than fulfilling the whole feeling of "I want it now", in seeing a good piece of gear, pulling out your Visa card and simply buying it? That's what I can't fathom.

MMOs now have spoiled people into believing that the idea of playing a game is to get everything "now" or as fast as possible. No wonder so many get bored and are ready to move on to the next one only 2 months after they started. Everything's practically handed to them.

And I'm not sure why you have to characterize working for something in a game in such a negative way... "grind like a mother", "grinding ad nauseum", etc.  You want people to respect your preferred playstyle, while you're making these passive jabs at theirs. Kinda hypocritical, no?

There are other reasons not to like the idea of Item Malls in games, and those reasons have already been discussed in this thread. That you choose to ignore the other reasons and try to narrow it down to "people wanting to grind like a mother ad nauseum" is pretty disingenuous.

 

I'll even turn it around and call BS on these people who have "more money than time": what entitles them to have access to the same accomplishments that someone who has put more time into the game? Take any casual, real world, sporting hobyy as an example - if I have more time to put into playing volleyball, pool, bowling, poker or whatever - I'm going to do better, win more events and have access to more levels of competition. No one would consider it "fair" for you to hire the Buffalo Bills offensive line offseason to win a casual football league, so why should we consider that kind of advantage "okay" for an MMO?

(otherwise the previous post nailed it)

Originally posted by eyeswideopen

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by Vortigon

I will Never subscribe to ANY RMT game. Whether its an compulsary or a voluntary option, even if it's for fluff items.

RMT is a slap in the face to the unwritten rules of this genre, it breaks the gaming spirit of MMOs.

MMORPGs are a special kind of gaming genre, immersion is key for many people, and even just knowing that the person in front of me could be wearing or using an item that they have purchased out of game and with no prior effort, is contrary to everything this genre is and should be about.

RMT is a slipper slope, at first it will be sneaked in the back door and then like a virus it will spread to everything. We need to make a stand NOW! NO to RMT or ANY kind.

ANY game with RMT of ANY kind will NOT get me as a subscriber.

So that's one potential customer lost. And if there's 1 theres a lot more.

Hell, just seeing an "Item Mall" button on the interface throws me off. I can't stand it, personally. I'll dabble with the F2P MMOs, but I'll never spend money on them. Like you, I think it completely breaks immersion and undermines the point of playing in the first place for me.

On that note, I have an issue with what the author writes here:

"To use myself as an example, I tend to explore and try new things quite a bit rather than grinding for experience and/or farming items all the time. As a result, there are periods, sometimes lasting quite a while, when my advancement is slow. If I happen to decide I want to pick up the pace by buying a better weapon, some bonus XP potions or whatever, I really don't see that as constituting a problem for anyone else."

He seems to be of that spoiled "have my cake and eat it, too" mindset. He wants to spend all his time doing only what he wants to do, but still have access to the good stuff, when he wants it.

It's actually a perfect illustration of why I'm against it. Exploring is a lot of fun, I enjoy doing it as well... but I don't believe that because I didn't spend any/enough time trying to earn a good piece of armor, or a weapon, or xp, that I'm *entitled* to it. Hell no. If I want that good item, then I'm not going to spend that time exploring.. Instead I'm going to spend it working to acquire that weapon/armor/etc. It's something that improves my character... why shouldn't I have to earn it by defeating a tough mob, completing a difficult quest, etc? It's *part of playing the game*. Sorry, I've just never subscribed to that "silver platter" mentality.

MMOs trace back to table-top RPGs (been a couple steps in-between, of course). I don't ever remember someone handing the DM at a gaming session $5 so they can simply, "magically" acquire a better sword, or armor, or get faster xp. The point of it all was to *play*, to adventure and explore and have fun no matter what you were doing. It wasn't to "race to level cap as fast as possible so you could move on to the next game". It's so ridiculous to me to see people taking a genre that was founded around the idea of an on-going adventure that could be played for years without reaching "the end", and trying to reduce it to an ADD Paradise.

As for it not constituting a problem for anyone else... It very well can constitute a problem. Ever experienced elitism in a MMO? Elitism over gear, etc? I have, plenty. If there's a sword you can purchase, and it's deemed a "must-have" weapon, then there will be people who will shun you from parties for not having it. So now, if you want to be able to participate in parties, etc, you need to pull out the Visa and buy it. Expand that out to armor, or potions, etc. etc. That very well *can* be a problem, especially for people on a tight budget... which leads me to my next point.

And those who believe MMOs will keep it only to "fluff" items... Come on. Their goal is to make money. They're not going to base their entire business model on an Item Mall system that people never have to use. They'd go broke. They might introduce fluff items first, to warm people up to the idea. But over time, more and more necessary items will become available.

As has been said before, if an Item Mall is implemented for anything beyond mere fluff items and there's no equivalent to be earned via in-game means, then it can very well cause a wide gap. When Bob with the seemingly limitless credit line can simply whip out his Visa and buy whatever he wants and have an uber-equipped character... while the next guy can only afford, maybe, some health pots or something... Guess who's going to most likely win in a PvP fight? Bob... not necessarily because he's better... simply because he had more $$$ to gear himself up better.

It's lame.

Subscription based games provide a level playing field for all players. Everyone pays the same fee. Everyone has the same access to the same gear and items in-game. It's just a more fair way to go about it.

 

 

 

Well said.

and yet i wonder...

what if we dont give a Rat's Tail about PvP?

Originally posted by nekollx

Originally posted by eyeswideopen

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by Vortigon

I will Never subscribe to ANY RMT game. Whether its an compulsary or a voluntary option, even if it's for fluff items.

RMT is a slap in the face to the unwritten rules of this genre, it breaks the gaming spirit of MMOs.

MMORPGs are a special kind of gaming genre, immersion is key for many people, and even just knowing that the person in front of me could be wearing or using an item that they have purchased out of game and with no prior effort, is contrary to everything this genre is and should be about.

RMT is a slipper slope, at first it will be sneaked in the back door and then like a virus it will spread to everything. We need to make a stand NOW! NO to RMT or ANY kind.

ANY game with RMT of ANY kind will NOT get me as a subscriber.

So that's one potential customer lost. And if there's 1 theres a lot more.

Hell, just seeing an "Item Mall" button on the interface throws me off. I can't stand it, personally. I'll dabble with the F2P MMOs, but I'll never spend money on them. Like you, I think it completely breaks immersion and undermines the point of playing in the first place for me.

On that note, I have an issue with what the author writes here:

"To use myself as an example, I tend to explore and try new things quite a bit rather than grinding for experience and/or farming items all the time. As a result, there are periods, sometimes lasting quite a while, when my advancement is slow. If I happen to decide I want to pick up the pace by buying a better weapon, some bonus XP potions or whatever, I really don't see that as constituting a problem for anyone else."

He seems to be of that spoiled "have my cake and eat it, too" mindset. He wants to spend all his time doing only what he wants to do, but still have access to the good stuff, when he wants it.

It's actually a perfect illustration of why I'm against it. Exploring is a lot of fun, I enjoy doing it as well... but I don't believe that because I didn't spend any/enough time trying to earn a good piece of armor, or a weapon, or xp, that I'm *entitled* to it. Hell no. If I want that good item, then I'm not going to spend that time exploring.. Instead I'm going to spend it working to acquire that weapon/armor/etc. It's something that improves my character... why shouldn't I have to earn it by defeating a tough mob, completing a difficult quest, etc? It's *part of playing the game*. Sorry, I've just never subscribed to that "silver platter" mentality.

MMOs trace back to table-top RPGs (been a couple steps in-between, of course). I don't ever remember someone handing the DM at a gaming session $5 so they can simply, "magically" acquire a better sword, or armor, or get faster xp. The point of it all was to *play*, to adventure and explore and have fun no matter what you were doing. It wasn't to "race to level cap as fast as possible so you could move on to the next game". It's so ridiculous to me to see people taking a genre that was founded around the idea of an on-going adventure that could be played for years without reaching "the end", and trying to reduce it to an ADD Paradise.

As for it not constituting a problem for anyone else... It very well can constitute a problem. Ever experienced elitism in a MMO? Elitism over gear, etc? I have, plenty. If there's a sword you can purchase, and it's deemed a "must-have" weapon, then there will be people who will shun you from parties for not having it. So now, if you want to be able to participate in parties, etc, you need to pull out the Visa and buy it. Expand that out to armor, or potions, etc. etc. That very well *can* be a problem, especially for people on a tight budget... which leads me to my next point.

And those who believe MMOs will keep it only to "fluff" items... Come on. Their goal is to make money. They're not going to base their entire business model on an Item Mall system that people never have to use. They'd go broke. They might introduce fluff items first, to warm people up to the idea. But over time, more and more necessary items will become available.

As has been said before, if an Item Mall is implemented for anything beyond mere fluff items and there's no equivalent to be earned via in-game means, then it can very well cause a wide gap. When Bob with the seemingly limitless credit line can simply whip out his Visa and buy whatever he wants and have an uber-equipped character... while the next guy can only afford, maybe, some health pots or something... Guess who's going to most likely win in a PvP fight? Bob... not necessarily because he's better... simply because he had more $$$ to gear himself up better.

It's lame.

Subscription based games provide a level playing field for all players. Everyone pays the same fee. Everyone has the same access to the same gear and items in-game. It's just a more fair way to go about it.

 

 

 

Well said.

 

 

and yet i wonder...

 

what if we dont give a Rat's Tail about PvP?

PvP was just an example I used.

Please don't try pulling that "the example given is the only applicable one" crap. It won't fly.

I also noted the elitism that can rise out of something like that and can affect other players who don't have the finances to run out and buy every new "must have or you suck" item that comes along. I notice you ignored that point though - not coincidentally, I'm sure.

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by DarkRexx

Originally posted by qombi

 

You can keep your "premium services" thank you. I will continue to you know PLAY games for items. I don't consider swiping my credit card for an item a fun game tactic to obtain an item. In fact that isn't a game at all anymore. I think all of you are missing the points of GAMES, they are meant to be played. I guess swiping a credit card to you is fun. Games are about gameplay, if a game is unfun to you then play a different one. You people sure are illogical in the way you "play" games. 

I will make a new fun game online for all of you to play. The object of the game is to swipe your credit card as many times as you can to obtain items and then sit in the town and stare at yourself. It's a blast!

 

Why does it bother you that some people choose to pay for items off of a cash shop? It's not like I'm condoning third party services that just as often rip you off as deliver whatever service they've promised (gold, power-leveling, big tits, what-have-you). 

I think your issue is that you like to put a lot of game time into earning things for your avatar, whatever game you happen to be playing, and that the fact is that there are other people out there that think to themselves, "Gee, I sure don't have a lot of time and/or  patience to earn level (fill in the blank) and I'd really like to start having some MMO fun. But luckily there's this nifty little cash shop that sells EXP gain potions and items that ensure my gear wont explode from trying to enchant it . Also I want cat ears." So, you notice this and because you feel a sense of accomplishment for earning your items through the tried and true method of grinding ad nauseum, you go off on a tanget like an old man yelling about 'work ethic'.

Why do you need to depict it as "an issue" for someone to find the process of earning their in-game items instead of buying them? Your idea of fun might be "having" those items with as little effort as possible. For other people, obtaining those items is part of playing the game... part of the fun. To characterize a gameplay preference as "an issue" is pretty narrow-minded.

The Fact Of The Matter is this: When you play a subscription game, you're paying for content you have to work to earn. When you use a RMT service provided by the company, you're getting what you pay for right away instead of having to grind like a mother in order to earn it. You end up spending roughly the same amount of money either way, and I'm not sure why you dislike people because your sense of fun is different than others.

No.. the "Fact of the Matter" is, when you pay a subscription game, you're paying for the service, for the ability to log in and play, be it to run quests all day, hunt for items, raid non-stop, or just stand around and chat. What content you decide to go after is up to you. The idea behind a game is to provide a challenge... to win the game, be the "last one standing", or what have you. In MMOs, you set goals for what you  want to achieve through your character and then proceed to *play the game* to achieve those goals. Some of those goals include obtaining good gear for your character. If it's a meaningful achievement, then what's wrong with having to put some effort into obtaining it?

When I look at some of items I've acquired, or achievements I've earned in FFXI, for example, I think back on the experiences fondly.. of the difficulty I had achieving those goals, tough fights, close-calls, difficult quests, the fun I had with the people who helped me, etc. etc. It gives those items and those achievements meaning beyond just what stat boosts they give me. What kind of satisfaction is there, other than fulfilling the whole feeling of "I want it now", in seeing a good piece of gear, pulling out your Visa card and simply buying it? That's what I can't fathom.

MMOs now have spoiled people into believing that the idea of playing a game is to get everything "now" or as fast as possible. No wonder so many get bored and are ready to move on to the next one only 2 months after they started. Everything's practically handed to them.

And I'm not sure why you have to characterize working for something in a game in such a negative way... "grind like a mother", "grinding ad nauseum", etc.  You want people to respect your preferred playstyle, while you're making these passive jabs at theirs. Kinda hypocritical, no?

There are other reasons not to like the idea of Item Malls in games, and those reasons have already been discussed in this thread. That you choose to ignore the other reasons and try to narrow it down to "people wanting to grind like a mother ad nauseum" is pretty disingenuous.

 

 

Well...

I...

But... he...

Damn. You got me good. Okay, I'm sorry. I'll try harder to remember all the points of a discussion.

But you have to admit... the phrase "grind like a mother ad nauseum" is funny when taken out of context. :D
 

Originally posted by WSIMike

PvP was just an example I used.

Please don't try pulling that "the example given is the only applicable one" crap. It won't fly.

I also noted the elitism that can rise out of something like that and can affect other players who don't have the finances to run out and buy every new "must have or you suck" item that comes along. I notice you ignored that point though - not coincidentally, I'm sure.

 

ok then lets go though some key PvE secnarios then.

RTMer can not trade or sell items, does not team with you:

Effect on you? None

RTMer can not trade or sell items, does team with you:

Effect on you? Better team?

RTMer can trade or sell items:

Effect on you? The same item he bought RTM you can grind for and buy at AH. Even Play.

Originally posted by Opticron

Originally posted by Brain-dead

I don't see the spoiled mindset you try to point out. He does says he's willing to pay for the bonus xp or extra weapons, simply to enjoy the game in more possible ways, how is that spoiled?

Because he wants to be able to pay to get a leg up on someone else. If I am playing in the same game world, I basically have to end up shelling out money to compete on a level playing field.

Not saying that there should be a law against RMT games. Just explaining why they are so unappealing to the vast majority of the MMO player base. The author is wrong; RMT  will never ever catch on as a standard for reasons I just described. Not in a million billion years.

 

Not the way i read it. He wants to enjoy the game in more ways than simply grinding for the next level/high-end equipment by paying in order to keep up with friends who do like that sort of thing, and why shouldn't he? To reverse your statement: If i'm playing in the same game world, I basically have to give up my job and social/family activities to compete on a level playing field with a student playing 8h/day  

Most ubers/hard-core players 'earned' their position by making long hours playing their game, the introduction of real money is seen as a threat to quickly lose that position to others who are willing to spend more money. Maybe that's why it seems unappealing to most. The way i see it running a marathon in 2 hours remains impressive even though someone willing to buy a motorcycle can do it in 10 minutes.

Except you don't see the Marathon runner and the motorcyclyst competing in the same race. If they did, the motorcyclist would be frowned upon and laughed at for buying a motorcycle to win because he spent his time in the office earning money for the motorcycle rather than training for the big race.

Why do people who have jobs and families WANT to compete with people who have more time on their hands? Just play the game at your pace? I know many who do. RMT hurts games more than it helps, cripples economies, unbalances PvP and creates classes of living... those who pay and those who don't. In fact casual play or hardcore play is not even a real issue when it comes to RMT. There are MANY "hardcores" who have lots of money. So they play like they have no lives and pay for RMT to boot. Then there are MANY casuals who just take the game slow. You don't see them because you are looking towards the finish line.

The purpose of an MMORPG is every action you take affects others around you. Some people seem to think it doesn't that we shouldn't care. I played Lineage 2 for a long time and finally got fed up, I will not play a game controlled by Ebayers/Botters/RMTers ever again. I'll play a game controlled by whoever demonstrates the most teamwork, skill and organization.

I agree that RMT is inevitable, and I also agree with the article, that by and large it does do no objective damage. In a capitalist free market, trading goods/money VS time/work is a pretty normal thing. People sell their work time for coin. Whats new in this? When I am buying 20 castles and 20 horses and 20 golden armors with my dollars, it is nobodies frigging business. Period. The alternative is communism, where "authorities" regulate what you can do.

I agree however that PVP should not be influence for apparent reasons.

Some vocal minority of "old school hardcore whatevers" try to keep this away with religious zeal and for purely fictional reasons. Most gamers don't care a rats ass, as the mass usage of gold buying proofs. Like alcohol prohibition, forbidding some thing just does not work. End of story.

Well first off, anyone that says they will pay about the same for an RMT game as a subscription game are you in for a surprise.  RMT will cost more . Once you are in for a little bit it will expand be more and more and more.....

Personally I see the market divirging.  There are a lot of MMO players out there that just won't play a game where you can buy your way to success.  So I think subscription games will still be around for the long haul.  Since almost any game today has some form of pvp you will be forced to spend significant funds if you intend to experience that portion of the game.  That will turn a lot of people off.  So while Mr Aihoshi does not feel it is a big deal if people can use RMT to enchance their character developement, there are a significant portion of us who won't play such a game.

There is also the Eve way too.  You can basically buy game time in Eve and sell it to other players for the in game currency, hence it can be classified as RMT.  The interesting thing here is that it does not advance your character one iota as skill growth is determined over real time rather than game time.  Even having lots of isk to spend does not make your character that much better.

So look for a definite divurgence rather than RMT becoming the standard.  The smart developers will pick their niche and stick to it.   The people at Blizzard do not like RMT, so I would be very surprised if they were to use it in any of their games in the near future.

It will be interesting to see how future MMO's handle this issue.  I think if Bioware allows RMT to affect character development, it will significantly hurt their star wars MMO.

Those that argue that it wont hurt the PvE aspect are also WRONG! People with better gear get in the group... example... I find a group have decent gear, then someone who just spent 15 bucks on thier gear comes... they pick the other guy... I dont get in... he does, because he has the money adn can quickly buy better...it hurts PvP and Pve... and if the mmo has a player driven econmy based on game items, it will warp that,,,,

Originally posted by Ozmodan

Well first off, anyone that says they will pay about the same for an RMT game as a subscription game are you in for a surprise.  RMT will cost more . Once you are in for a little bit it will expand be more and more and more.....

Personally I see the market divirging.  There are a lot of MMO players out there that just won't play a game where you can buy your way to success.  So I think subscription games will still be around for the long haul.  Since almost any game today has some form of pvp you will be forced to spend significant funds if you intend to experience that portion of the game.  That will turn a lot of people off.  So while Mr Aihoshi does not feel it is a big deal if people can use RMT to enchance their character developement, there are a significant portion of us who won't play such a game.

There is also the Eve way too.  You can basically buy game time in Eve and sell it to other players for the in game currency, hence it can be classified as RMT.  The interesting thing here is that it does not advance your character one iota as skill growth is determined over real time rather than game time.  Even having lots of isk to spend does not make your character that much better.

So look for a definite divurgence rather than RMT becoming the standard.  The smart developers will pick their niche and stick to it.   The people at Blizzard do not like RMT, so I would be very surprised if they were to use it in any of their games in the near future.

It will be interesting to see how future MMO's handle this issue.  I think if Bioware allows RMT to affect character development, it will significantly hurt their star wars MMO.

IMVPO spending too much money in ingame items just proves folly and wrong values. But thats just how I feel. On the other hand, when someone has any other hobby, the rich can buy every expensive stuff, and the poor have to be content with simple things. If you are rich you can have the most exclusive golf equipment, and when you are poor... well, such is life. ( And I am not rich, mind ya, but why should MMos be different than any hobby?)

I predict in the long run EVERY MMO will have some form of RMT. Why? Because money is just too powerful to resist. Like the One Ring, heh. No company will resist the siren call at some point. I see it like the change of economy from the system of the Middle Ages to modern capitalism. In the Middle Ages, people were not free to sell their goods as they wanted, they were bound to lords and superiors, to their places and given pathways of living, set by authorities. Like the economic pathways set by game devs today. But once the idea of the free market arose, there was no "niche" left in the end. Now you may like it or not, but RMT IS the future. Fighting against it seems like fighting against weather changes to me.

Originally posted by Elikal

Originally posted by Ozmodan

Well first off, anyone that says they will pay about the same for an RMT game as a subscription game are you in for a surprise.  RMT will cost more . Once you are in for a little bit it will expand be more and more and more.....

Personally I see the market divirging.  There are a lot of MMO players out there that just won't play a game where you can buy your way to success.  So I think subscription games will still be around for the long haul.  Since almost any game today has some form of pvp you will be forced to spend significant funds if you intend to experience that portion of the game.  That will turn a lot of people off.  So while Mr Aihoshi does not feel it is a big deal if people can use RMT to enchance their character developement, there are a significant portion of us who won't play such a game.

There is also the Eve way too.  You can basically buy game time in Eve and sell it to other players for the in game currency, hence it can be classified as RMT.  The interesting thing here is that it does not advance your character one iota as skill growth is determined over real time rather than game time.  Even having lots of isk to spend does not make your character that much better.

So look for a definite divurgence rather than RMT becoming the standard.  The smart developers will pick their niche and stick to it.   The people at Blizzard do not like RMT, so I would be very surprised if they were to use it in any of their games in the near future.

It will be interesting to see how future MMO's handle this issue.  I think if Bioware allows RMT to affect character development, it will significantly hurt their star wars MMO.

 

IMVPO spending too much money in ingame items just proves folly and wrong values. But thats just how I feel. On the other hand, when someone has any other hobby, the rich can buy every expensive stuff, and the poor have to be content with simple things. If you are rich you can have the most exclusive golf equipment, and when you are poor... well, such is life. ( And I am not rich, mind ya, but why should MMos be different than any hobby?)

I predict in the long run EVERY MMO will have some form of RMT. Why? Because money is just too powerful to resist. Like the One Ring, heh. No company will resist the siren call at some point. I see it like the change of economy from the system of the Middle Ages to modern capitalism. In the Middle Ages, people were not free to sell their goods as they wanted, they were bound to lords and superiors, to their places and given pathways of living, set by authorities. Like the economic pathways set by game devs today. But once the idea of the free market arose, there was no "niche" left in the end. Now you may like it or not, but RMT IS the future. Fighting against it seems like fighting against weather changes to me.

Well I disgree that it is inevitable, since there is a significant audience who will not support such a game.  Go read some of the comments that Bilzzard has made about RMT.  They feel the exactly same way, it is not inevitable at all.  Since they have been pretty astute in this market so far, you would think they have done some research to support such a view.

Originally posted by racasdorph

Those that argue that it wont hurt the PvE aspect are also WRONG! People with better gear get in the group... example... I find a group have decent gear, then someone who just spent 15 bucks on thier gear comes... they pick the other guy... I dont get in... he does, because he has the money adn can quickly buy better...it hurts PvP and Pve... and if the mmo has a player driven econmy based on game items, it will warp that,,,,

*shrugs* i suppose. But i woun't want on that team anyway. I prefer skilled players over looted ones anyway.

But what do i know my main MMO is City of Heroes where I'm a 60 month vent would can run half the game without any enhancments and still get begged on to join teams.

Cause i'm just that good, and people know it.

 I know I have posted some replies in this thread but 1 thing that keeps hitting me and is maybe worth a thought but then again maybe not.

People that agree with RMT in games keep stating "we dont have the time to play so this is fair"sort of thing,ok fair enough..

Now what about the player's that dont have alot of time to play but also dont have the money to buy in game items?

Should we invent some sort of ingame welfare cheque's for them so they can be on a level gaming field?

I think with the upcomming release of Aion it would cater for all type's,as in crafted gear is as or nearly as good as raiding gear and pvp gear,I am a casual player and in my on-line guild we all help each other so maybe getting the items to craft gear if we cant get the raid gear will keep us enough in line with other player's,pvp gear we will earn in time...this to me seems to be a very fair option for both hard-core and the casual player......not a visa card battle or a time ingame battle.....maybe this is an alternative soloution for the future.

Originally posted by nekollx

Originally posted by racasdorph

Those that argue that it wont hurt the PvE aspect are also WRONG! People with better gear get in the group... example... I find a group have decent gear, then someone who just spent 15 bucks on thier gear comes... they pick the other guy... I dont get in... he does, because he has the money adn can quickly buy better...it hurts PvP and Pve... and if the mmo has a player driven econmy based on game items, it will warp that,,,,

 

*shrugs* i suppose. But i woun't want on that team anyway. I prefer skilled players over looted ones anyway.

 

But what do i know my main MMO is City of Heroes where I'm a 60 month vent would can run half the game without any enhancments and still get begged on to join teams.

 

Cause i'm just that good, and people know it.

Ooo this bring up a good question, how will people know right off the bat who is skilled and who isnt? Yeha after awhile u will be able to tell... after the group is wiped lol