Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by the420kid

 Just take a recent example Atlantica, I played the game when a new server opened pushed up to lvl 115 had finished every quest in game...

 

I know this post is OT, but....

 

HOLY CRAP

 

That's some pretty dedicated gaming, man. 

ye, I wondered the same. In what real-life time frame did he do this, and in what time frame do the "average" or "casual" players do it? Here it is called dedicated gaming. Or is it hardcore? Or is it whocares, f off?

My $15 = Your $15.

/end thread

edit: nevermind

I think that games that would be considered "hardcore" are the old generation games, the game world has moved on from these version 1.0 mmo's that reflected their roots in MUDs. When games were first online it took considerable income and time investment into them (good enough internet to play Everquest 1 was rather costly) and only the small gaming population that had the inclination to overcome these obstacles (time and cost) played them.
As the internet got more widely used and cost dropped off significantly you had more people coming into the market, often these would potter about in mmo's but because they were by nature more casual - having a mixture of entertainment sources/real life commitments (most of us who played Muds did so as students) etc etc meant that the traditional model for an mmo did not work for them - for example when you have a job and have 2 hours to play every 2 days or so you could only achieve a small amount on the old mmo's, if you think back to the xp required to level in EQ1 it would take many weeks to get up a single level and it was really off putting to die and loose 2-3 weeks’ worth of xp. Someone with limited time wants to achieve something, have some fun and feel like their hobby is providing entertainment - having all your week’s worth of work undone because of a lag spike or stupid pull etc does not equal fun for most people so mmo's failed to keep much of their casual game players - basically the time verse reward was not good enough.

With the rise of the 2.0 mmo's WoW took a leaf out of its RTS games and made sure that you could log on, play for a few hours or less and have something achieved and that if you died your achievements were not undone in an instance. This made really good sense from a game point of view and catered for the vast majority of people who were now using the internet and wanted to have a fun game that they could play. Wow tried to cater somewhat for the version 1 players by including raids etc which they discovered had most of the casual players wanting to know why they couldn’t have good gear just because they didn’t have the time to invest - they started to play wow because it catered for casual and the change at the end game made 0 sense to the average gamer - so WoW over the course of its time has made more and more content of near equal look and power availably to the casual gamer - dungeon instances requiring 30min can be run each night and over time in small bites a player can get their epic gear that is nearly as good as raiders. - Very smart move Blizzard!

So there are a few reasons why hardcores are ignored:
1. hardcore players are a minority
2. hardcore content by its nature does not work with the vast majority of a games player base
3. mmo's have progressed from version 1 to version 2, making a hardcore mmo is like forcing people back to using an old typewriter, their day is done and most people dont want to go back to a harder, slower and more clunky system.
4. the model doesn’t work with the current player base - look at everquest2, started out with several hardcore elements, corpse runs, loss of xp on death, slower levelling, mostly group content, all good gear in group based fights - players left it in droves, citing all these things as the reason they were quitting, EQ2 reinvented itself towards a more casual game but it was too late for a lot of people and they have never recovered.

So if you want a game that caters for the hardcore minority I suggest you look at the version 1 mmos because it’s unlikely that we will ever see a new mmo follow down what is now a failed business model.

Originally posted by John.A.Zoid

I don't have a problem with creating a game casuals can play but I hate this new thing of dumbing down the game so theres nothing for the hardcore and casuals can get everything.  We've seen this with World of Warcraft where theres nothing really anymore for the hardcore to differentiate themselves from the casual players. Now everyone can have everything and things like epics arn't special anymore and you miss that sense of omg he's badass. In SWG for example there was so much you could do to make yourselves different and the main reason for that is they didn't spoon feed the content to you and you had to work it out for yourselves. The suprising satistics I found of how few people did the things that I did, even other hardcore players and it made me feel proud. However if the game is too easy and thousands upon thousands of people have done that same thing, then you just don't care about doing anything.

Even in TF2 now they looked at how many people had the unlocked weapons and only a small percentage of players did so they decided to change the system to random so everyone had the chance. I just think thats dumb because the hardcore player has to have something to be different from the rest and if everyone had them then they arn't special anymore.

Why should everyone be able to see everything? Alot of people complain about content they wont see but why should they? I just want a game where the time I put into it makes me different and unique so I can feel happy about my character which is important for an mmorpg.

ok.... since you mentioned WoW... WoW offers to "hardcore" players something called RAIDS. If that's not a challenge for you, or you think that raids won't make you feel special either, perhaps you could design your own MMO. Chances are you will, who knows, but then, you will end up like many other big companies that won't cater to "hardcores" simply because the money is not there. It's business as usual.

I'm a hardcore player, and want my games to be deep.  But this doesn't mean I don't recognize that over 90% of a given game's playerbase is casual players, and that it's smart for devs to finally start putting 90% of their efforts towards that casual group instead of the 50% or 60% they used to.

The ideal MMO is Deep but Accessible.  The systems are simple enough for casual players to easily comprehend, but when taken in total they provide a depth of play that retains even the hardcore players (because many casual players eventually graduate and become hardcore; if a game is shallow at that hardcore level of play, they move on.)

Vanity is important to MMOs.  Showing off the sexy gear that you got appeals to a player's vanity and makes him stick around longer to try to get the rare, awesome-looking items the game has to offer.

Vanity doesn't mean casual players shouldn't be able to see all the content though, and that was a big early failing of WOW's raid content where only the hardcore could even participate.

So basically it boils down to "Have difficulty modes.  Casual players can complete all 'easy' content.  Hardcore players can complete 'hard' content and get the vain gear they desire."

Originally posted by Klayo

No one understands what it means to be hardcore anymore. The reason the first hardcore players were hardcore and the reason I am is because... You got to experience things no one else did you got to kill bosses 1/100 people would even see. You would get satisfaction from learning how to decimate the competition with your group. Items mean shit to a real hardcore player its all about the things he accomplished and what he wants to accomplish the items are just there to show what he went through and to get him to the next step he doesn't give a shit.

This was me in Everquest until last year ( family and night classes at the local college ).

I could care jack about the gear other than the really special pieces that were my way of saying, "I was there, I did that." I lived to see the high end raid zones, loved helping come up with new strategies to beat the next challenge, and was willing to bust my ass for weeks on progression to make sure we stayed ahead of the other guilds on my server.

Now that I am unable to meet a 40+ hour a week raid schedual, I am devoting my time to a level locked character in EQ2. I refuse to race to max level or skip content. I just want to experiance everything, at the level the content was originally intended for. When I do eventually get to end game, I'll be there because I want to see it and beat it, not just for the gear.

Originally posted by John.A.Zoid

I don't have a problem with creating a game casuals can play but I hate this new thing of dumbing down the game so theres nothing for the hardcore and casuals can get everything.

Why should everyone be able to see everything? 

Casuals and hardcore would be getting the exact same amount.  How is this bad?  Some of you hardcores need to focus your energy in to things outside the computer anyway. :p

Originally posted by Axehilt

I'm a hardcore player, and want my games to be deep.  But this doesn't mean I don't recognize that over 90% of a given game's playerbase is casual players, and that it's smart for devs to finally start putting 90% of their efforts towards that casual group instead of the 50% or 60% they used to.

The ideal MMO is Deep but Accessible.  The systems are simple enough for casual players to easily comprehend, but when taken in total they provide a depth of play that retains even the hardcore players (because many casual players eventually graduate and become hardcore; if a game is shallow at that hardcore level of play, they move on.)

Vanity is important to MMOs.  Showing off the sexy gear that you got appeals to a player's vanity and makes him stick around longer to try to get the rare, awesome-looking items the game has to offer.

Vanity doesn't mean casual players shouldn't be able to see all the content though, and that was a big early failing of WOW's raid content where only the hardcore could even participate.

So basically it boils down to "Have difficulty modes.  Casual players can complete all 'easy' content.  Hardcore players can complete 'hard' content and get the vain gear they desire."

I like this suggestion, however i think the OP was asking for exclusionary content because completing it when others can't made him feel special for some reason.  In most cases he's referring to a players ability to spend a ton of time in a game doing repetitive tasks which does not equal hardcore.

I find it a bit strange that the only way some people can enjoy a game is if they somehow can achieve something to exclusion of other players.

It should be enough that the "hardcore" player can get through content first, but the OP seemed to be asking for content that the causual player could never experience, which is just a failed model IMO.

As someone said, everyone pays the same amount and should be offered similar content.  (not necessarily exactly the same).

But no one should really be rewarded for having more free time vs another, (or more cash to spend than someone else) a well designed game will provide fairly equal opportuntiies for all player types.

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by jimsmith08

im amazed that people dont think wow is 'hardcore'. any game that has you on a relentless,never ending loot treadmill that takes up hours and hours of your daily life is pretty hardcore (and time wasting) to me.

 

It all depends on what a person sees as hardcore. Personally, I don't find the ability to do repetitive tasks in a zero risk environment for long periods of time to be hardcore, I see that as very dedicated gaming, but not hardcore. Each person has their own definition of what 'hardcore' is and that definition is often based on a comparison to their own playstyle. If someone is into grinding, they'll see the 8-hour a day grinder as hardcore. If someone is into PvP, they'll usually see the people who are into a higher risk form of PvP to be hardcore.  If someone is into RP, they'll often see the more diehard RPers as hardocre RPers.

 

This is the thing, there is no risk in a game, its impossible. How can a game have 'risk'? I see these types of comments on this board so much and it always amazes me how people can truley believe a game has an element of risk or danger in it. If I get shot in a game, I dont die in real life, If I get stabbed in a game I dont bleed over my keyboard, all that happens is I get set back slightly. There are no hardcore games, only those who try to preject an idea that their choice of game somehow makes them 'hardcore' for playing it.  Its just a very sheltered thing for them to believe, and by the comments you read on some gaming boards youd think that gaming is all some of them actually have in life.
 

Originally posted by JonMichael

Games are not hardcore.  People mistake games that are loaded with time sinks to be hardcore.

You want hardcore?  Turn off the computer, go outside and experience life.  That's hardcore.

 

Hahaha... one of the wisest posting in this thread.

/salute

Originally posted by Kyleran 

I find it a bit strange that the only way some people can enjoy a game is if they somehow can achieve something to exclusion of other players. 

That's not true though.  Even the players who care a lot about Vanity items (cool exclusive items) care about Vanity less than Fun Gameplay.

If you asked thousands of players to rate how much they enjoy various aspects of a MMO like "Social interactions", "Getting cool exclusive items", and "Fun combat" I gaurantee very few players are going to rate "Getting cool exclusive items" as the most important way they have fun in a game.

This is why MMOs like WOW have stripped back from full-on exclusive dungons (lots of effort to make) to merely having exclusive items (not nearly as much effort.)

So they still appeal to players who want that sense of Vanity, but without spending huge amounts of effort making content that only a tiny fraction of the playerbase sees (it's even a better idea when you consider that these Vain players are going to stand in the center of town wearing their gear - so everyone *does* get to see the content, even if not everyone can *use* the content.)

Originally posted by John.A.Zoid

I don't have a problem with creating a game casuals can play but I hate this new thing of dumbing down the game so theres nothing for the hardcore and casuals can get everything.  We've seen this with World of Warcraft where theres nothing really anymore for the hardcore to differentiate themselves from the casual players. Now everyone can have everything and things like epics arn't special anymore and you miss that sense of omg he's badass. In SWG for example there was so much you could do to make yourselves different and the main reason for that is they didn't spoon feed the content to you and you had to work it out for yourselves. The suprising satistics I found of how few people did the things that I did, even other hardcore players and it made me feel proud. However if the game is too easy and thousands upon thousands of people have done that same thing, then you just don't care about doing anything.

Even in TF2 now they looked at how many people had the unlocked weapons and only a small percentage of players did so they decided to change the system to random so everyone had the chance. I just think thats dumb because the hardcore player has to have something to be different from the rest and if everyone had them then they arn't special anymore.

Why should everyone be able to see everything? Alot of people complain about content they wont see but why should they? I just want a game where the time I put into it makes me different and unique so I can feel happy about my character which is important for an mmorpg.

Why in a casual game should hardcore be treated like their special. If the game is made for hardcore players then fine, but otherwise they should not get special treatment.

Originally posted by John.A.Zoid

I don't have a problem with creating a game casuals can play but I hate this new thing of dumbing down the game so theres nothing for the hardcore and casuals can get everything.  We've seen this with World of Warcraft where theres nothing really anymore for the hardcore to differentiate themselves from the casual players. Now everyone can have everything and things like epics arn't special anymore and you miss that sense of omg he's badass. In SWG for example there was so much you could do to make yourselves different and the main reason for that is they didn't spoon feed the content to you and you had to work it out for yourselves. The suprising satistics I found of how few people did the things that I did, even other hardcore players and it made me feel proud. However if the game is too easy and thousands upon thousands of people have done that same thing, then you just don't care about doing anything.

Even in TF2 now they looked at how many people had the unlocked weapons and only a small percentage of players did so they decided to change the system to random so everyone had the chance. I just think thats dumb because the hardcore player has to have something to be different from the rest and if everyone had them then they arn't special anymore.

Why should everyone be able to see everything? Alot of people complain about content they wont see but why should they? I just want a game where the time I put into it makes me different and unique so I can feel happy about my character which is important for an mmorpg.

It is an important aspect of any MMO to YOU sir. Not really to the company that made the MMO or the other players who play it. WoW spoon fed content because Blizzard knows the greater majority of the people who play WoW are too stupid to try anything more complicated then a ham sandwich to get stuff.

Face it, you are a minority in the gaming industry. Might as well get use to it because I think WoW won't be the worst load of babyfood we'll see hitting the markets in the next 10 years or so.

---

Originally posted by jimsmith08
This is the thing, there is no risk in a game, its impossible. How can a game have 'risk'?

---

The risk is not based on the fiction of the character, such as dying. The risk is based on the reality of the player, such as losing a level (a time investment). Or losing all your gear in full loot PvP encounters.

There is real risk in EVE Online. You might spend 100 hours going through all the work needed to build up a ship a certain way. Go into battle and you're risking that ship. That's 100 hours of your life. Not everyone wants to repeat that 100 hour process to get the ship back. That's what hangs in the balance.

Nobody actually plays that way because it's too risky. The rule in EVE Online is to bring ships to combat that you can afford to lose. People are naturally risk-averse and they do not like to throw away their accomplishments when that is the focus of the game.

People need to get something straight.  There is no such thing as a hardcore game, only hardcore gamer.  Most game aim at nothing more than providing the gamer with some fun and entertainment.  It is the gamer that decide now hardcore the game can be.  Things like finishing the game on the highest level difficulty without dying or impose on oneself some kind of handicap to give themselve more chalange.  By doing what other can't do, it gives a sense of satisfaction and achievement.  Hardcore gamer, like most other hardcore fanatics out there do it mainly cause it is fun and interesting to us.  You can't really say hardcore gamer are looser or have no life and what not cause what we do aren't so much difference than other fanatics out there.  Some people spend alot of time and money collection cars, stams, making paper origami, or climb mount everest.  You have your time consuming hobby, and we have our.  Neither of us should really judge the other on that merit.

The problem I have with the self imposed hardcore elist prick like the op is that unlike other out there who achieve something and want other to emulate.  What he want is to have something that only himself and the few selected people like himself to have and no other.  Because of their selfish and i'm better than thou attitude.  They some feel threatened and cheapened when more and more people are able to do or have what they have.  These people are trash and being couple with them is a real insult to people like us out there.

I pulled alot of unique and extravagant stun in many games that I played.  It alway bring a simple to my face when I hear that someone else is attempting the same thing and even better when I know they succeded.  That way, I feel like I know someone out there would feel the same kind of rush and excitement as I did when first pulled off that stun.

To the OP,

If you think you are so bloody hardcore, go do something to show just have awsome you are like being ranked top in arena or clear an instance in record time or something.  The simple fact that you are complaining about how everyone have what you got showed that you aren't any more special than them and didn't do jack to deserve it.  Or maybe you just aren't "hardcore" enough.

Originally posted by boojiboy

Originally posted by John.A.Zoid

I don't have a problem with creating a game casuals can play but I hate this new thing of dumbing down the game so theres nothing for the hardcore and casuals can get everything.  We've seen this with World of Warcraft where theres nothing really anymore for the hardcore to differentiate themselves from the casual players. Now everyone can have everything and things like epics arn't special anymore and you miss that sense of omg he's badass. In SWG for example there was so much you could do to make yourselves different and the main reason for that is they didn't spoon feed the content to you and you had to work it out for yourselves. The suprising satistics I found of how few people did the things that I did, even other hardcore players and it made me feel proud. However if the game is too easy and thousands upon thousands of people have done that same thing, then you just don't care about doing anything.

Even in TF2 now they looked at how many people had the unlocked weapons and only a small percentage of players did so they decided to change the system to random so everyone had the chance. I just think thats dumb because the hardcore player has to have something to be different from the rest and if everyone had them then they arn't special anymore.

Why should everyone be able to see everything? Alot of people complain about content they wont see but why should they? I just want a game where the time I put into it makes me different and unique so I can feel happy about my character which is important for an mmorpg.

 

Try Vanguard.  There is definitely a hard-core aspect to that game.  I'm not hard-core, but try to experience both the hard-core content and still enjoy a casual approach due to limited play-time.  They just introduced Pantheon of the Ancients and a new level cap.  Any new hard-core players would have many months ahead of them before they could get to the top tier stuff.

There is nothing hardcore about Vanguard.  One can still level 1-50 in less than 5 days played.  The only thing remotely close to hardcore was the griffon quest when it was 1st implemented before they dumbed it down and made it easier.

Sadly vanguard is just like all other MMO's dumbed down for the casual whiny 18-25 year old kiddies who lack the attention span and patience to do anything that does have instant gratification.  There are not any MMOs fr hardcore players.  They all have been gutted of any challenge or substance for the casual and kiddie players.

So losing time and effort put into a game is hardcore. Your not hardcore unless you beat Oblivion, delete all your save games and start over, and keep repeating. Also let me say this one more time, your not hardcore your a geek (nothing wrong with being a geek) who plays video games. Just enjoy yourself, in the end it's all about having fun.

Originally posted by tayschrenn

Originally posted by Ravanos

you casual scrubs need to figure how to manage your time better.

And there is reason behind this insult other than to proclaim a non-exsistent superiority?

As to hardcore etc. People may hate WOW but it caters to BOTH hardcore and casual. Achievements. Hard Modes. Better loot from said things. You can have the E-Peen if you want it.

you hardcore scrubs need to figure how to get a life.

Originally posted by Cyborg99

So losing time and effort put into a game is hardcore. Your not hardcore unless you beat Oblivion, delete all your save games and start over, and keep repeating. Also let me say this one more time, your not hardcore your a geek (nothing wrong with being a geek) who plays video games. Just enjoy yourself, in the end it's all about having fun.

 

hehe, amen to that.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Vanity is important to MMOs.  Showing off the sexy gear that you got appeals to a player's vanity and makes him stick around longer to try to get the rare, awesome-looking items the game has to offer.

Sorry, I've never understood that.  I know that it exists, I just don't get it.  Who cares what your character looks like?  I have never given a damn, I'm there to play a game, not win a fashion show.  In Anarchy Online, there's an option to wear "social" clothing that shows rather than the regular armor you're wearing.  The only thing I've ever used it for is to hold extra armor I couldn't equip yet because it gets it out of my inventory.

The whole idea of showing off seems extremely shallow and immature to me, who gives a damn?  I know I certainly don't.

I hate this trend to build your entire personal identiy around your online life, creating the need to label yourself hardcore in order to let you feel like you're better than everyone else.

It's nothing more than a sad form of elitism.

Originally posted by Yamoth

You sir need to get a life. Better yet, you sir need to do something outside of video games to make yourself feel special and confident so you don't have to seek so desperately in a fantasy world. But just for the sake of argument, i'll take on all of your argument about the so called problem of letting the casual getting their hands on some loots.

First of, in world of warcraft, even if the casual do get their hands on a few epic. Their epic is no where as good as the one the hardcore able to obtain through constant raiding. The casual epic might give that person plus 100 to spell power. The 10 raid would give 110, and the 25 man raids would give 120, or something like that. The best ingame epics and legendary are all locked inside 25 man raids that require a very large amount of time and effort to aquire. The kind of things that a typical casual player will never able to get and even if he could, he wouldn't have nearly as many as you Mr. Super 1337 hardcore raider would have. In tern even you can understand, the different between casual and raider epic is about 500 to 1000 dps in wow at the time when I quit, so no, they are not the same. Now if you have a problem with the casual having any epic what so ever, then you sir have a bigger problem to worry about and i suggest seeking help from a shrink or a swift kick in the ass. Either would be good.

Now for TF2, as the developer stated. They want EVERYONE to be able to get ALL of the unlock within a reasonable amount of times. Those weapon are not ment to be better. What those weapon ment to do is to give a player a different style to play that class and thus make then entire game more interesting. The problem with the old a achievement is not that the casual can't get them. Anyone that want any of those weapon can unlock them within a day top going into of them achievement farm. The problem with it is that when some new toy released, anyone legitimate player and their red headed step sister debra would play nothing but that class for a straigh week or two will they get all of the unlocks. Furthermore, they don't really bother helping out the team buy choosing a more useful class (god know you don't need to have 10 heavy in a single team) or simple ignore the objective all together and do nothing but attempting to farm for the achievement. This destroy kill the fun for many many people and one of the biggest reason when so many player like me hate when valve announce new unlocks.

Both of your example are not only horrible but totally selfish and for the developer to cater to your need would significantly harm their games.  So simply put, no.  Stop being a prick, and go find something else that make you feel good about yourself.

right on the button , thank you sir easing my reply on this!

I agree with the OP.

I played Lineage II before they dumped it down. Spent two months 15-20 hours a day, just getting into the guild I wanted. We were part of the first siege on our server, and we were proud.

I havent felt this special and unique in a game before or after.

Originally posted by jimsmith08

This is the thing, there is no risk in a game, its impossible. How can a game have 'risk'? I see these types of comments on this board so much and it always amazes me how people can truley believe a game has an element of risk or danger in it. If I get shot in a game, I dont die in real life, If I get stabbed in a game I dont bleed over my keyboard, all that happens is I get set back slightly. 

There are different elements that can be at stake in PVP in some MMOs. Since you say "all that happens is I get set back slightly," it seems to indicate that you are more familiar with games like WOW, WAR and LOTRO where you really don't risk anything in combat. In some of the other MMOs, there are several things that players put on the line when they enter combat. Three very common ones are:

• resources collected
• time invested
• territories controlled

When you enter a battle in games like UO, EVE and Shadowbane you decide ahead of time what you are willing to risk in that engagement. In FFA arenas like UO's Felucca and EVE's nullsec space, that decision has to be weighed even if you are entering the arena for reasons that may not be for the direct intent of combat (recon, mining, courier, etc). On a greater scale, players also risk the territory they control. Loss of a territory can mean loss of status, passage rights or income.

Risk simply means the hazard or chance of loss of any kind, not specifically life or limb.