Originally posted by Opticron

Originally posted by WSIMike

Hell, just seeing an "Item Mall" button on the interface throws me off. I can't stand it, personally. I'll dabble with the F2P MMOs, but I'll never spend money on them. Like you, I think it completely breaks immersion and undermines the point of playing in the first place for me.

On that note, I have an issue with what the author writes here:

"To use myself as an example, I tend to explore and try new things quite a bit rather than grinding for experience and/or farming items all the time. As a result, there are periods, sometimes lasting quite a while, when my advancement is slow. If I happen to decide I want to pick up the pace by buying a better weapon, some bonus XP potions or whatever, I really don't see that as constituting a problem for anyone else."

He seems to be of that spoiled "have my cake and eat it, too" mindset. He wants to spend all his time doing only what he wants to do, but still have access to the good stuff, when he wants it.

It's actually a perfect illustration of why I'm against it. Exploring is a lot of fun, I enjoy doing it as well... but I don't believe that because I didn't spend any/enough time trying to earn a good piece of armor, or a weapon, or xp, that I'm *entitled* to it. Hell no. If I want that good item, then I'm not going to spend that time exploring.. Instead I'm going to spend it working to acquire that weapon/armor/etc. It's something that improves my character... why shouldn't I have to earn it by defeating a tough mob, completing a difficult quest, etc? It's *part of playing the game*. Sorry, I've just never subscribed to that "silver platter" mentality.

MMOs trace back to table-top RPGs (been a couple steps in-between, of course). I don't ever remember someone handing the DM at a gaming session $5 so they can simply, "magically" acquire a better sword, or armor, or get faster xp. The point of it all was to *play*, to adventure and explore and have fun no matter what you were doing. It wasn't to "race to level cap as fast as possible so you could move on to the next game". It's so ridiculous to me to see people taking a genre that was founded around the idea of an on-going adventure that could be played for years without reaching "the end", and trying to reduce it to an ADD Paradise.

As for it not constituting a problem for anyone else... It very well can constitute a problem. Ever experienced elitism in a MMO? Elitism over gear, etc? I have, plenty. If there's a sword you can purchase, and it's deemed a "must-have" weapon, then there will be people who will shun you from parties for not having it. So now, if you want to be able to participate in parties, etc, you need to pull out the Visa and buy it. Expand that out to armor, or potions, etc. etc. That very well *can* be a problem, especially for people on a tight budget... which leads me to my next point.

And those who believe MMOs will keep it only to "fluff" items... Come on. Their goal is to make money. They're not going to base their entire business model on an Item Mall system that people never have to use. They'd go broke. They might introduce fluff items first, to warm people up to the idea. But over time, more and more necessary items will become available.

As has been said before, if an Item Mall is implemented for anything beyond mere fluff items and there's no equivalent to be earned via in-game means, then it can very well cause a wide gap. When Bob with the seemingly limitless credit line can simply whip out his Visa and buy whatever he wants and have an uber-equipped character... while the next guy can only afford, maybe, some health pots or something... Guess who's going to most likely win in a PvP fight? Bob... not necessarily because he's better... simply because he had more $$$ to gear himself up better.

It's lame.

Subscription based games provide a level playing field for all players. Everyone pays the same fee. Everyone has the same access to the same gear and items in-game. It's just a more fair way to go about it. 

 

I don't see the spoiled mindset you try to point out. He does says he's willing to pay for the bonus xp or extra weapons, simply to enjoy the game in more possible ways, how is that spoiled?

Subscription based games do not provide a level playing field. Like stated in the article it's a question of time v.s. money. Sub based games are biased towards players with enough time, RMT games are biased toward players with money, finding a balance/combination of both is the key here where through time you can reach the same goals as you can reach by paying extra or vice versa. While it's hard to describe "the point" of MMO's, i believe  "provide entertainment" comes pretty close and people are entertained in different ways. While you like to  "work " for your sword of almightyness, i like to do other stuff and then "pay" for mine, we both do what we enjoy and have the same result, where's the harm in that?

Finally, someone gets it.  Had to happen sometime.  Drop all the name calling about people who favor the RMT model being unskilled, or not able to succeed, the simple truth is we're not willing to trade free time for grinding when other options exist. (reason I play both EVE and ROM btw)

Note, I don't play in games where illegal RMT would affect other players, I keep to the games which support the model.

In ROM there's a player who has spent 4K on his gear and yes, he'll always be far better than I since I'll never spend that sort of cash. But I don't have some sort of epeen issues where I have to be the biggest or the baddest player on the server. Truth is, I've helped kill this same highly geared player a couple of times, we compensated with numbers and took him down. 

Sure, if you feel the need to win one on one this might be a problem, but in my book, when loot is on the line, you win any way possible, as long as you win big. 

Numbers? I'll give you a number:

100% development support in F2P games comes from those people who actually spends money in Item Mall. Its also a good way to make a profit for that game devs.

I don't know if there are many people, who has a decent job and likes to play MMO, that has never tried to spend some money in Item Malls. And usually if they do it once, they will do it again in other similar games. And in some cases they actually enjoy those games more than regular per-month fee games.

Also F2P games are developed that way to make it feel repetitive and full of grind unless you spend some cash. What you think those devs are stupid and don't know what they are doing? Unskilled, undetermined they call those who spend cash? Well, those who call them that way probably just don't have any extra money to spend. I hope we're not talking about jelousy being covered by some excuse of determination of cracking that F2p grind fest.

"OH YEAH I JUST GRINDED FOR 2 WEEKs STRAIGHT TO GET ME THAT MOUNT." Good for you pal, but I'd rather spend some cash, buy that mount and spend that time enjoying my life with family and friends. Its just my option. Because I do have some extra money and I prefer to spend my time in game having fun instead of gnashing my teeth against the wall of dumb grind that was created in this F2P game for the sole purpose to make your game experience miserable and give you a hint that "Hey hey, your mount is only click away".

RMT must be stopped at every corner no matter the source DEVS or gold sellers they must all be stopped i will never ever play a game that uses it as a payment model because it is a way for marketers to lie to you you pay your sub and you EXPCET to have the ability to access all parts of the game off your own play time and all the content if its an F2P game they are falsely advertising their product which is illegal in many countries because the game is NOT free to play you have to pay if you want to be able to access all the content and the like

this is why the insidious RMT must be fought at every corner of every street on the beaches in the towns in the fields and forests

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Originally posted by popinjay:

The only reason RMT works is because the markets they are mainly run in (third world) are were people do not have a steady stream of reliable income or own their own home internet connections. Over there, the job situation is by and large agricultural or some other type, and people do not simply have the $15/month to steadily pay. So being able to pay $10 one month and nothing the next when you dont' have money makes sense.

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Originally posted by S1nn3r

I dont post here often but i had to pick up on this pretty silly comment. Did you just say Korea was a third world country ? (being its one of the largest markets as you say for RMT to be run in)

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Did you read "Korea was a third world country?" If not, you shouldn't be so defensive.

It's obvious why you don't post here often. You have 3 posts and used one of them to call someone's post "silly" while seeing what you wanted to see and making your own inferences into the thread.

You probably should stick to lurking. You apparently do that much better.

Free to Play clearly means that you don't have to pay to play the game. It would be a pretty arguable subject that insist that free to play also means free access to all that game has to offer. Game content is free in F2P games. You can't really consider Item Mall items a game content. All the explorable content in the game is in fact free to get to. Except that you will be spending endless hours to grind things.

Actually, because of the Item Mall customers F2P games are not as grind focused any more. For example in Atlantica Online the main thing about the game is to upgrade your mercenaries and that takes crystals and jewels. Almost every box that Item mall offers has jewels with the highest percentage to win. So the Market actually flooded with jewels. People go for mount boxes and instead get lots of jewels. Price goes down from 6 million per a jewel to like 350K.

On this example you can very well see how Item Mall customers influence the market prices and make that way game for those who play without spending any cash easier. But they still need to grind mobs for gold. And in most cases those who never spend cash on Item Mall turn to gold sellers. Since its cheaper in Atlantica case.

I don't see the spoiled mindset you try to point out. He does says he's willing to pay for the bonus xp or extra weapons, simply to enjoy the game in more possible ways, how is that spoiled?

Because he wants to be able to pay to get a leg up on someone else. If I am playing in the same game world, I basically have to end up shelling out money to compete on a level playing field.

Not saying that there should be a law against RMT games. Just explaining why they are so unappealing to the vast majority of the MMO player base. The author is wrong; RMT  will never ever catch on as a standard for reasons I just described. Not in a million billion years.

 I know a lot of people like to trash talk the RMT model, but A LOT of people buy in to it...probably even some of those who even trash talk it.

But I put my money where my mouth is.  I'm a gamer...have been for 30 years.  I will NEVER play an RMT based game.

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Originally posted by Brain-dead
I don't see the spoiled mindset you try to point out. He does says he's willing to pay for the bonus xp or extra weapons, simply to enjoy the game in more possible ways, how is that spoiled?
Because he wants to be able to pay to get a leg up on someone else. If I am playing in the same game world, I basically have to end up shelling out money to compete on a level playing field.
Not saying that there should be a law against RMT games. Just explaining why they are so unappealing to the vast majority of the MMO player base. The author is wrong; RMT  will never ever catch on as a standard for reasons I just described. Not in a million billion years.

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Come back here in 3-4 years. It will not be a standard for most of the gaming market, but you will see a great influence in game development. You will see companies advertising their products in most modern P2P games (maybe not the fantasy ones), different micro-transaction modes and add-ons embedded into some games, etc. While RMT may not be as a standard to develop new games based on but it has enough influence to create new forms of it. You already know about TCGs that plays a big role in a several MMOs and DLCs on Xbox Live is just an example on how this is being advanced.

RMT was never something to make you consider as an obligation in the game. It was invented by Asian developers as an attempt to cater to more casual players, attract attention to themselves with a 'FREE' tag and promote their financial program to support the game and make profit in the meantime.

I know a lot of people like to trash talk the RMT model, but A LOT of people buy in to it...

What percentage of the player base? Is it even 5%? 1%? RMT is a niche, just like F2P is a niche. And I dont see that changing anytime soon if at all.

But I put my money where my mouth is. I'm a gamer...have been for 30 years. I will NEVER play an RMT based game.

Ditto. I just dont see the point. If it ever caught on I would go back to single player games or consoles.

Originally posted by Thradar

 I know a lot of people like to trash talk the RMT model, but A LOT of people buy in to it...probably even some of those who even trash talk it.

But I put my money where my mouth is.  I'm a gamer...have been for 30 years.  I will NEVER play an RMT based game.

Ditto.

Game companies can adopt this strategy of they please.  Just will not get my money.  Monthly fee is one thing.  I like the option of being able to play when I want and get a product that has developers working on any bugs or issues in the game.  Also, adding new content and such for the monthly fee.

Paying for a new shiney inside the game does not appeal to me at all.  Now, something that is negligable to game play?  Housing, pets, items to place in a house?  Those are all things that are not conducive to playing.  In most cases I do not strive for player owned houseing because the upkeep in gameing coin makes the whole concept a job to support that item than enjoying it.  However, there are those players who love this type of thing.  So be it.

Come back here in 3-4 years. It will not be a standard for most of the gaming market, but you will see a great influence in game development.

"Most" of the market? It wont even be the standard for a minority of the market.

RMT was never something to make you consider as an obligation in the game. It was invented by Asian developers as an attempt to cater to more casual players, attract attention to themselves with a 'FREE' tag and promote their financial program to support the game and make profit in the meantime.

And I dont doubt there is a big demand for it over there in Asia, because most of them (meaning Chinese/Korean/Ect..) dont have the incomes to support a subscription game at the moment. As their standards of living increase however (and they are), I predict the subscription model will become more popular over there as well.

If given a real choice (one not bound by income) they will choose the subscription model just like we have.

That "free" tag has become synonymous with "low quality and/or no support". Its only attractive if you dont have an income to support a subscription.

Originally posted by Brain-dead

I don't see the spoiled mindset you try to point out. He does says he's willing to pay for the bonus xp or extra weapons, simply to enjoy the game in more possible ways, how is that spoiled?

Because he wants to be able to pay to get a leg up on someone else. If I am playing in the same game world, I basically have to end up shelling out money to compete on a level playing field.

Not saying that there should be a law against RMT games. Just explaining why they are so unappealing to the vast majority of the MMO player base. The author is wrong; RMT  will never ever catch on as a standard for reasons I just described. Not in a million billion years.

Not the way i read it. He wants to enjoy the game in more ways than simply grinding for the next level/high-end equipment by paying in order to keep up with friends who do like that sort of thing, and why shouldn't he? To reverse your statement: If i'm playing in the same game world, I basically have to give up my job and social/family activities to compete on a level playing field with a student playing 8h/day  

Most ubers/hard-core players 'earned' their position by making long hours playing their game, the introduction of real money is seen as a threat to quickly lose that position to others who are willing to spend more money. Maybe that's why it seems unappealing to most. The way i see it running a marathon in 2 hours remains impressive even though someone willing to buy a motorcycle can do it in 10 minutes.

Yup, you bet there are. Why do you guys think these F2P clones multiply like rabbits? Its a popular thing amongst mature gaming community. While some of you may consider not to be involved and spend your extra money on something else there will always be people who will max their credit cards just to get that stupid mount... What I personally hope for is that RMT mechanics will be advanced, I already see a difference in RoM for example comparing to early F2P games. RMT needs to be perfected, changed, tweaked, adjusted towards the cash spending player needs not the greed of the company developer.

Thats how I think it will be mixed with todays MMO standards.

The largest MMOs in the world are F2P.

Source please. List the F2P MMOs with larger player bases than WoW or Everquest.

One of the major attractions of playing an MMO is earning weapon and armor upgrades through questing. It says something about your determination and skill if  you've fought your way thorough 10 levels of a dungeon to get to final boss to get that uber sword.  With RMT, good weapons and armor are no longer a function of skill and determination but of how much you have in your wallet. 

 It's  for the immediate gratification crowd who want the best equipment but don't want to work for it and it destroys the "bragging rights" of players who've taken the time and effort to EARN what they have.  It is the ultimate dumbing down of  a genre that's already been dumbed down by unimaginative and copycat game play, making "quests" the equivalent of a "jobs" (i.e. collect 10 wolf pelts and 10 spider sacs and get a 10 silver payment) repeating those "quests" at different levels, removing penalties for "dying" in game, etc all for the benefit of lazy gamers, and stockholders that want larger dividends on their investments.

I've played MMOs since there were MMOs and put up with all the crap these gaming companies have thrown at me. However, if RMT is instituted in ANY MMO I'm currently playing, I'm gone, period.

Originally posted by WSIMike

Hell, just seeing an "Item Mall" button on the interface throws me off. I can't stand it, personally. I'll dabble with the F2P MMOs, but I'll never spend money on them. Like you, I think it completely breaks immersion and undermines the point of playing in the first place for me.

On that note, I have an issue with what the author writes here:

"To use myself as an example, I tend to explore and try new things quite a bit rather than grinding for experience and/or farming items all the time. As a result, there are periods, sometimes lasting quite a while, when my advancement is slow. If I happen to decide I want to pick up the pace by buying a better weapon, some bonus XP potions or whatever, I really don't see that as constituting a problem for anyone else."

He seems to be of that spoiled "have my cake and eat it, too" mindset. He wants to spend all his time doing only what he wants to do, but still have access to the good stuff, when he wants it.

It's actually a perfect illustration of why I'm against it. Exploring is a lot of fun, I enjoy doing it as well... but I don't believe that because I didn't spend any/enough time trying to earn a good piece of armor, or a weapon, or xp, that I'm *entitled* to it. Hell no. If I want that good item, then I'm not going to spend that time exploring.. Instead I'm going to spend it working to acquire that weapon/armor/etc. It's something that improves my character... why shouldn't I have to earn it by defeating a tough mob, completing a difficult quest, etc? It's *part of playing the game*. Sorry, I've just never subscribed to that "silver platter" mentality.

MMOs trace back to table-top RPGs (been a couple steps in-between, of course). I don't ever remember someone handing the DM at a gaming session $5 so they can simply, "magically" acquire a better sword, or armor, or get faster xp. The point of it all was to *play*, to adventure and explore and have fun no matter what you were doing. It wasn't to "race to level cap as fast as possible so you could move on to the next game". It's so ridiculous to me to see people taking a genre that was founded around the idea of an on-going adventure that could be played for years without reaching "the end", and trying to reduce it to an ADD Paradise.

As for it not constituting a problem for anyone else... It very well can constitute a problem. Ever experienced elitism in a MMO? Elitism over gear, etc? I have, plenty. If there's a sword you can purchase, and it's deemed a "must-have" weapon, then there will be people who will shun you from parties for not having it. So now, if you want to be able to participate in parties, etc, you need to pull out the Visa and buy it. Expand that out to armor, or potions, etc. etc. That very well *can* be a problem, especially for people on a tight budget... which leads me to my next point.

And those who believe MMOs will keep it only to "fluff" items... Come on. Their goal is to make money. They're not going to base their entire business model on an Item Mall system that people never have to use. They'd go broke. They might introduce fluff items first, to warm people up to the idea. But over time, more and more necessary items will become available.

As has been said before, if an Item Mall is implemented for anything beyond mere fluff items and there's no equivalent to be earned via in-game means, then it can very well cause a wide gap. When Bob with the seemingly limitless credit line can simply whip out his Visa and buy whatever he wants and have an uber-equipped character... while the next guy can only afford, maybe, some health pots or something... Guess who's going to most likely win in a PvP fight? Bob... not necessarily because he's better... simply because he had more $$$ to gear himself up better.

It's lame.

Subscription based games provide a level playing field for all players. Everyone pays the same fee. Everyone has the same access to the same gear and items in-game. It's just a more fair way to go about it.

 

 

You know, I'm actually inclined to agree with a lot of these points, mostly because I read it and I found I couldn't retort with anything more intelligent than yelling "Well, you're STUPID!" at the computer screen.

Not the way i read it. He wants to enjoy the game in more ways than simply grinding for the next level/high-end equipment by paying in order to keep up with friends who do like that sort of thing, and why shouldn't he?

I alrerady explained why; because he is able to buy his way ahead of me in a game world we are both playing in. The best characters in the game are no longer the people who have been there the longest or played the best or whatever...they are the people with the most money to spend on the game.

And like I already said...I'm not saying they shouldnt be allowed to do it. I am explaining why such a setup is unappealing to me and (IMO) most MMO gamers.

Thats like saying "why should I be able to do whatever the hell I want in any MMO I play?? If it helps me enjoy the game more, where is the harm??".

Most ubers/hard-core players 'earned' their position by making long hours playing their game

Which, IMO, is better than your alternative of allowing them to simply buy their position.

the introduction of real money is seen as a threat to quickly lose that position to others who are willing to spend more money.

Of course it is. What is the point of trying to advance in a game where anyone can simply buy their way ahead of me?

Maybe that's why it seems unappealing to most. The way i see it running a marathon in 2 hours remains impressive even though someone willing to buy a motorcycle can do it in 10 minutes.

So why dont Marathons allow people on motorcycles to enter them? Why are all the runners ruining the "fun" of the motor cyclists? If thats the way they want to do the race, why cant they participate too?

I had the impression your article finished before it was concluded... Was it a technical issue?

...or you really wanted to finish the text that way?

Originally posted by popinjay

 

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Originally posted by popinjay:

 

The only reason RMT works is because the markets they are mainly run in (third world) are were people do not have a steady stream of reliable income or own their own home internet connections. Over there, the job situation is by and large agricultural or some other type, and people do not simply have the $15/month to steadily pay. So being able to pay $10 one month and nothing the next when you dont' have money makes sense.

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Originally posted by S1nn3r

 

I dont post here often but i had to pick up on this pretty silly comment. Did you just say Korea was a third world country ? (being its one of the largest markets as you say for RMT to be run in)

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Did you read "Korea was a third world country?" If not, you shouldn't be so defensive.

 

 

It's obvious why you don't post here often. You have 3 posts and used one of them to call someone's post "silly" while seeing what you wanted to see and making your own inferences into the thread.

 

 

You probably should stick to lurking. You apparently do that much better.

I read into it that way becuse the largest Free 2 Play Markets are Korea and China , hence equating your "are mainly run" comment to mean those two countrys as those are pretty much the largest markets for said payment model which would equal "mainly run" at least to me at any rate.

This article is about the inevitabilyt of RMT. Some people dont seem to agree that this is inevitable, or that it will happen soon. So I have a question. What major North American Game Publisher does NOT already support RMT in some format?

Here are publishers that do:

Blizzard

SOE

NCSoft

EA

and honestly, I am not aware of any that do not.... 

I guess that depends on how you define RMT...IMO, buying a costume piece in City of Heroes when there are thousands of free ones available doesnt make the game RMT. It is still a subscription game. And you cannot buy advancement with money.

Originally posted by qombi

Originally posted by DarkRexx

It's hilarious how many mmo players love to make companies into some sort of Lex Luthor-esque bad guy because they offer premium services through micro transactions or outside product codes i.e. WoW TCG loot cards. The truth is, is that wanting to make lots of money through selling cash shop only items to players doesn't make a company 'evil' or 'greedy'. It makes them a 'company'.

Personally I don't see a problem with offering extra content through a RMT system, wether or not the premiums are cosmetic or character-enhancing. If it's some person's idea of fun to plunk down 20$ to buy some hawt gear for thier character so they can hang with thier higher-level friends and not get mauled (or grief some noob in pvp, or WHATEVER the reason REALLY doesn't matter) then why should anyone care? If the game stops being fun because of a poorly-implemented cash shop, you don't have to get your spending impulse fix at that particular game. If the mmo doomsday prophets are right (they're not) and RMT destroys every single half-decent game to be released in the near future, therby damning the MMO industry, then just go play some single player games on your PC and/or console of choice, but before you do, remember that lots of those games also offer 'premium content for a nominal fee' as well.  

 

You can keep your "premium services" thank you. I will continue to you know PLAY games for items. I don't consider swiping my credit card for an item a fun game tactic to obtain an item. In fact that isn't a game at all anymore. I think all of you are missing the points of GAMES, they are meant to be played. I guess swiping a credit card to you is fun. Games are about gameplay, if a game is unfun to you then play a different one. You people sure are illogical in the way you "play" games. 

I will make a new fun game online for all of you to play. The object of the game is to swipe your credit card as many times as you can to obtain items and then sit in the town and stare at yourself. It's a blast!

That's true, games are meant to be played and are meant to be fun. That does not invalidate the fact that people are going out and spending money to mitigate certain aspects of these games. And they are going through secondary companies.

It is not out of the realm of feasibility that a company, seeing that people are spending money on these secondary companies, would like to take that money for themselves.

And the point of the matter is that no matter what you or anyone else things about whether it is fun or not to use real money to bypass parts of the game, people are doing it.

More than likely they are doing it to bypass the things that they don't think are fun in order to get to the parts where they do think the fun is.

It's not good but that is probably the truth of it.

And more to the point, these games attract such a wide variety of people that it makes sense that there are parts of these games that just don't appeal to certain people.

So no matter what, even if a certain amount of players staunchly proclaim that they will never play a game with RMT, there are so many players using it that it sends a very mixed message to developers.

"We would never use rmt...." then you go on the internet and there are thriving rmt sites. Something doesn't add up there. What is a developer to do then?

Originally posted by Brain-dead

I guess that depends on how you define RMT...IMO, buying a costume piece in City of Heroes when there are thousands of free ones available doesnt make the game RMT. It is still a subscription game. And you cannot buy advancement with money.

That is like saying:

I dont buy stuff online, I just use Ebay.

RMT is the METHOD that is used to do business, not the results.

There are many ways of getting in the cash for a MMO company. RMT is one of them but many companys do good with P2P, Arenanet are doing well by just charging for the game and the expansions and you can put in-game or in-UI adds, have a large life-time fee like you can use in LOTRO also. And there must be other ways to get in the cash too.

Nothing is inevitable 'cept death and taxes.