So, guys, how do you think you could, in a sandbox game, make progression lateral, instead of vertical? I.E. spells don't increase the power, only increase utility.

One of the ways would be to have weapons do more or less damage to certain creatures. For example, silver, whilst being an exceptionally soft metal ( therefore low durability and damage ), does a hell of a lot of damage to lycanthropes, whilst bronze does more damage to fae. This could be represented through an increased crit modifier or something similar.

Now, come on! Give your ideas!

SWG Pre CU.

DO IT

Originally posted by John.A.Zoid

SWG Pre CU.

 

DO IT

Bah,  Pre-CU SWG was very broad but really shallow in it's skill trees.  Plus once you picked your specialization you had to give up all the utility you picked up from other trees.

Actually, as per your comments about weapons doing different damages to different mobs. Tabula Rasa did this.

I had an idea for an alternate attack for every ability.  It isn't better just different.  You get access to the alternate attack by using an ability enough. So if you use flare enough you could unlock the alternate version, tourch, done by holding shift and activating flare.  Flare could be a straight up fire attack, tourch a DoT that costs less mana.  Instead of flare getting more powerful, you just unloack tourch, increasing your tactical options but not making you anymore powerful, in terms of raw power anyway.

Originally posted by CactusmanX

So if you use flare enough you could unlock the alternate version, tourch, done by holding shift and activating flare. 

You have to think about who's gonna be playing your game. With that system do you honestly think that 99% of MMO players won't just spam every spell they get to unlock the second version the moment they get it?

Depends on what you mean by spam, if you mean shoot at nothing then yes I would expect them to try but you can't unlock things just by shooting nothing, you have to kill things with it.  Other than that I would expect them to use their abilities alot, why wouldn't they?

Like what you were saying about the utility thing.

My game concept works in this manner, (generally.)

Instead of increasing the damage done by abilities, you "level" to gain more abilities, that deal damage in different ways. Useful ways. A fireball comes from your fingertips to your opponent. A comet falls from the sky to the target location. Both would be relatively equal in power, depending on casting times and what-not. Yeh see?

Well you could broaden the list and have several types of magic/weapon materials with an equally expansive list of monsters that have a wide spectrum of vulnerabilities, resistances, and immunities.

As you "level up" (assuming this form of character progression) you could learn different ways of casting your spells; i.e. your holy bolt spell is still in your reportoire, but now you can purchase a holy-elemental aura which does DOT to mobs in its range, or other ways of getting holy damage out there (think inferno or fire wall from Diablo, but holy damage).  Apply this progression to buffs as well, starting with a holy self-resistance buff, and progressing towards party-enhancing buffs, healing and cleansing spells, intimidation auras that demoralize mobs that are weak against holy, etc.

Make a decent selection of elemental damage types available at the start, but withhold those that pertain towards more rare and powerful mobs until a certain level so you can't go off and kill something like an vampire elder right out of the gate.

Jesus.... tons of ways.

Number one is to make the game more action-oriented so that most gameplay relies on tense maneuvering and combat strategy/reflexes. From there I can give plenty of examples from a couple game ideas of mine.

1. Leveling that won't leave noobs in the dust.

Got an FPSMMO w/ 30 levels of skill/stat gains and such. It in no way affects whether or not you can enter or complete any content. It's just a way to divy out skills in order to make custom specs, and each level will make you stronger than last time, but just not enough to really have that much of an advantage. Not in CoD4 terms where you stay the same health, but at some point you get a perk or awesome weapons or health - but it's close. You spend your levels on accuracy bonuses and special skills that act a lot like a hotbar-skill would in an FPS. These skills are only useful in certain situations - like jamming all the bullets in the magazine for an inaccurate quick-burst, having the clip ricochet off objects and shoving all the bullets in the clip towards the muzzle for a biug "scrapper shot". Each has it's plusses based on the situation when used, but typically do bad things like damage the weapons and leave you open after. All damage in this game is determined solely by weapons and armor mitigations, not stats. Accuracy is a stat tho, and it makes the shots come closer to the crosshair, differnet guns react in different ways to this. All damage between weapon types is an average based on gun quality, the look and feel of the gun is purely aesthetic, though RoF and accuracy does differ. Anyway, with all that to balance it out you should see a smooth leveling experience to 30 that will make the changes obvious, but you will still be a valuable group asset at level one as long as you are outfitted.

2. Spell utility

One of my fav projects tries to juggle melee, ranged and magic in another FPSMMO-type setting. I'm still figuring it out, but basically melee pwns, ranged hurts bad, and magic is comparably weak but has neverending "ammo" and has various other utilites as you charge the cast with the mouse-click during combat. There are the 4 esoteric elements of fire, water, earth and wind - and you swap between melee/ranged/magic with [tab] (no lock on whatsoever without a specific tool in use that bars combat). When in magic mode the hotbar becomes the magic interface, and by default they are set at 1-4 and you can switch dynamically. With say "earth" highlighted, you can then cast various spells in succession of how they are charged in this example;

(to get a point out, the game uses the idea of chakra that animates magic effects cycling from the ground up to the head - but im not about to get deep into it on this thread, maybe ill post the whole thing someday)

LVL 1 - Throw debris - by rapidly clicking as you would a gun you can throw rocks up from the ground at your feet towards the reticle.

LVL 2 - Bigger Rocks - Charge for a moment and you throw a bigger rock you can still get a momentum going in this size by charge/releasing to a timing. So it matches up well with the first layer if by accident.

LVL 3 - Big Rock - The rock you pick up that would have beed thrown grows even bigger and then you can hurl the biggin.

LVL 4 - Pop Rock - The big rock shakes violently and if released will explode in conical AoE. Good if you can do it in time against and enclosing melee.

LVL 5 - Mound - If the shaking rock is allowed to charge further it will then lift a mound up from the ground and envelop the rock (which dissapears behind the scenes). This mound is used for LoS fun, and to make a barrier to take cover from. It's only temorary tho, then it turns into sand.

LVL 6 - Summon - At this point the spell will not charge as quickly and it becomes a utility in summoning a vehicle in a splash of particle effects dependant on the element. Takes a few second more, even after charging this far.

LVL 7 - Transform - This is just a minute long charge process leading to the next that does nothing, but may provide some kind of teleport or something later on.

LVL 8 - Enlightened Form - If a player beats a major endgame milestone he is able to have a flicker of enlightenment and become a god-child for a moment. This WILL kill anything, total trumping tool everyone gets that is very neccesary in future raids, and sometimes just to pwn people with. You can only use it once every 9 real days.

---- The method above allows combat actions for 4 layers of quick charges that are shown on a meter during combat. The fifth, no matter the element, is some kind of battlefield altering spell, the 6th is always a universal summon spell to collect items from your bank at any location, and 7th a supreme charge into the supreme form. I wish I could better explain the method with the story and setting, which is no doubt my best work ever, but perhaps another day.

I think I got another, but having brain fart.

Originally posted by GTwander

Jesus.... tons of ways.

...

1. Leveling that won't leave noobs in the dust.

...

2. Spell utility

...

LVL 1 - Throw debris - by rapidly clicking as you would a gun you can throw rocks up from the ground at your feet towards the reticle.

LVL 2 - Bigger Rocks - Charge for a moment and you throw a bigger rock you can still get a momentum going in this size by charge/releasing to a timing. So it matches up well with the first layer if by accident.

LVL 3 - Big Rock - The rock you pick up that would have beed thrown grows even bigger and then you can hurl the biggin.

LVL 4 - Pop Rock - The big rock shakes violently and if released will explode in conical AoE. Good if you can do it in time against and enclosing melee.

LVL 5 - Mound - If the shaking rock is allowed to charge further it will then lift a mound up from the ground and envelop the rock (which dissapears behind the scenes). This mound is used for LoS fun, and to make a barrier to take cover from. It's only temorary tho, then it turns into sand.

LVL 6 - Summon - At this point the spell will not charge as quickly and it becomes a utility in summoning a vehicle in a splash of particle effects dependant on the element. Takes a few second more, even after charging this far.

LVL 7 - Transform - This is just a minute long charge process leading to the next that does nothing, but may provide some kind of teleport or something later on.

LVL 8 - Enlightened Form - If a player beats a major endgame milestone he is able to have a flicker of enlightenment and become a god-child for a moment. This WILL kill anything, total trumping tool everyone gets that is very neccesary in future raids, and sometimes just to pwn people with. You can only use it once every 9 real days.

...

Sorry, too much to quote, but a unique perspective on magic. I could see something along the lines of:

Rock Slide - Left click your mouse while having Rock Slide selected and where ever you have your mouse pointed, rocks jut up from the ground impling those in your path. Lasts for 5 seconds and only up to 50 ft range.

If you had a system kinda like Ryzom/Oblivion, you could have people make spells from components and add effects and reagents and allow a point system for building unique spells for players. Would make the research of spells awesome for the first 6 or so months of play. I could see expansions being added and not telling the players about it so they would have to explore the system constantly and search the world on various scrolls or whatnot for different effects.

You could also apply this to melee combat, kinda like how Mortal Online is doing. But from what I am finding is that people over at the MO forums, when a player is allowed control of something that is controlled by game code/server, they ended to look negatively to it. Several examples of this is pets, flagging systems, and transportation.

What they say is that pet AI will automatically hit and deal a constant stream of damage when the other players have to use their own skill (think like Age of Chivalry) to deal damage. What I try to counter with is how is the NPC/Mob AI set up? Do they always hit? If so, then the game will not live up to it's promise of having player skill matter. If they do not always hit, then why could player controlled pets use the same AI? Not only that, pets themselves should not be able to kill a player. A pet class in such a game should have to have input from both the player in forms of fighting along side or using some type of skills help the pet survive long enough to defeat their enemy.

But that was kinda off tangent. I believe MO will have more lateral progression that most games. Might want to take a look at the game. I believe they say people would be able to max out a character in several weeks of play (in terms of primary skills) so other forms of gameplay will be needed other than just leveling in order to keep people interested.

If you want any good examples of more engaging lateral progression, you should check out any 'hybrid' type games that are crossed with RPGs. Basically anything that isn't an MMORPG at its core.

IE: Team Fortress 2, The Battlefield series, etc.

You'll find that these kinds of games have a target audience focused on instant gratification, so either the rewards need to be instant and the playing field must be level and flat, or the rewards need to be worth the effort. To one of this crowd, a pair of boots with +5 stamina and +25 mana seems like a complete waste when it doesn't help them kill something 20+ levels above them.

In these kinds of games, you'll unlock things that improve your classes' current abilities or give you new one things to do; like the scout's energy drink, which makes you "invulnerable" for a short period of time and allows you to run past turret defenses; or the medic's defibrillator, which allows you to revive fallen allies. Your "level" does not increase when you gain these abilities.

So, like any other game, you unlock new stuff as you play the game online. But, while the new stuff certainly increases your utility with different classes, a newbie can still come along with basic stuff and rip you a new one if you aren't careful. The problems in these kinds of environments arise when some unlockables aren't well balanced and entirely replace older equipment, meaning that newbies are overpowered and the learning curve increases dramatically... and there is certainly a lack of variety when each item must have a unique purpose, so you'll probably get bored with the system in a shorter period of time as opposed to a different system... like a forced grind for a minimal reward.

But anyway, despite the flaws, I love that kind of progression. Everyone can play together, so you don't have to concern yourself with elitist cliques to have fun. You just hone your skill and play with friends.

On a semi-related note; I don't appreciate games with 'infinite learning curves' that force me to grind in order to tackle fun challenges, but that's just me.

Personally, I like the idea of a trade-off system.  That is nothing gets stronger without an equivalent decrease somewhere else.  You want +5 to fire spells, it will cost you -5 to 1 of several options.  Progression under this system comes from skills that allow you to select the buff's corresponding price.  So well developed characters might have options for fire like: -1 to other magic schools (6 schools in the game)  or -5 to Ice/water, -1 to resisting other magic schools (or -5 ice/water def), -5 to physical attack/defense, or whatever else I'm missing here.

While this system would let you become very powerful, it would also open massive weaknesses in the process.  Sure you could down other players in a few shots if you fully spec to boost a type of damage, but you are unlikely to survive more than a few shots from anyone either.

Add in a bunch of "life" skills like lockpicking and a host of weapon skills (various swings each with their own tradeoffs) to build and each player would be a fairly unique encounter.  As long as these sort of tradeoffs are maintained for equipment too, a freshmeat n00b still has a shot in starter gear.

Originally posted by Dawnherald

So, guys, how do you think you could, in a sandbox game, make progression lateral, instead of vertical? I.E. spells don't increase the power, only increase utility.

One of the ways would be to have weapons do more or less damage to certain creatures. For example, silver, whilst being an exceptionally soft metal ( therefore low durability and damage ), does a hell of a lot of damage to lycanthropes, whilst bronze does more damage to fae. This could be represented through an increased crit modifier or something similar.

Now, come on! Give your ideas!

Well, you could get certain attacks to hit certain bodyparts or to work better against a certain armor. If you hit an opponent in the head youll do a world of hurt unless he have an helmet and you can have a certain piercing attack to go thru a chainmail that doesn't do so much damage against someone in leather or plate.

You could also make the swords more realistic. A bent Katana for one is brilliant against somene who hasn't got a metal armor but it might break against a metal armor. Certain metals are heavier than other and might do more damage but slow the attack speed whick is good to penetrate a heavy armor but will do less damage against someone in leather.

It is cold iron that damages Fae BTW, bronze is ultimate for canons since it have a lesser chanse of exploding but it is heavier and more expensive.

For combat I would reccomend you to actually learn how real melee works, and add in some mythology to it also.

I see a nice sandbox crafting where you chose model, metal, if you soak the weapon in water or some other liquid (goat blood, urine, whatever) and the technique (you can forge metal of different qualities together, like in a Katana or in many other different ways). All the weapons of course having slightly different values.

1 Egged swords have certain advantages, 2H swords other and so on. Usually are the weapons made to be effective against the most common armor at the time so you can probably balance them out against eachothers and the armors.

A katana really kills someone in regular clothes while Chainmail will make it almost useless. A 2H sword is effective against a plate armor but not good against a person that have no armor (it is slow and easy to dodge/parry).

Then there is of course non combat skills. I suggest that you let people choose a speciality every time your skills go up to a level. Say that you are a thief with disarm traps. You choose Wards as you first speciality and pits as your second. Those you will disarm unless you botch. All other traps like a poison trap on a chest is still possible to disarm at a much lower chanse, like 40% or something.

Make all skills into 10 specialitys or so and make it possible for the most experinced character to be ablo to learn everyone axcept 1 or 2. And this go both to weapons skills (where you might make more then 10 possible attacks of course) and non combat skills.

Example game: Guild Wars does this for PVP characters only whereas when you "level up" you merely unlock new skills. None of your base attributes increase

I'd expect a full fledge sandbox done properly to apply this to PVE as well. How players gain XP is up to the title. Your base attributes NEVER increase. Veterans are merely a lot more diverse than newbies

The carrot-on-the-stick here is that perhaps Veterans have unlocked some cool ability that newbies would want. Wild example- like riding horses / bikes. Something the player will feel a need to acquire.

I have no idea why we've only seen guild wars try this. This was a wild success for them.

Also, for clarity folks, if the skills can be leveled 'vertically' that is not full blown lateral progression. Skill-based systems are most often Vertical progression for skills. so those games are not what most consider lateral progression. Lateral progression normally exists in FPS games like Battlefield 2142, etc

they should make a true sandbox where everything is based on attributes,  wepons,  armor,  skills,  abilities,  buildup times,  cooldowns,  resistences,  defence.  in this way it would really be like putting a child in a sandbox and seeing what he'll build.