Just like the title says.  What is the difference between a Theme Park and a Sandbox game?

The reason I'm asking is because it seems to be a huge "fight" today.  But i'm not sure that I would understand what two mean.

I get the general idea, but I dont' believe they are that far apart as some claim them to be.

Some people claim WoW and War and alot of the new MMOs are theme park, and I can see that, but what does it mean?

If going from one zone to the next with monsters getting harder over time, each zone being equal to a set lvl, is themepark, then pretty much all MMOs are theme park.  Most MMOs are set up that way.  DAoC was, and FFXI as well as many of the older games.

If having quests that "introduce" the game to people is theme parkish, then almost all MMOs are guilty of that.

If having an endgame that is "predefined" by the developer is theme parkish, then almost EVERY MMO is guilty of that.  In fact, every mmo is.  DAoC's end game was RvR, as defined by the developer, with some unimportant / inconsequential side things.  So is Darkfall, except it is Guild vs Guild, and thats the WHOLE game, no end game at all... kinda cool that there is no end game, but without options, causes boredom to set in pretty quick.  Shadowbane, although better developed than Darkfall, but still a RvR (or Guild vs Guild) fight as endgame.  EQ and UO and FFXI as well as almost every other major MMO had pretty much the same End game as WoW... pretty much treasure hunting / dungeon crawling.  Each had subtle "extras" to try to give some more reason to "lvl" / spend in game (ffxi -> merit points) but it was essentially an end game identical to WoW.

But the majority of people claims, it seems, revolve around these two differences.  Endgame, and "linear progression through a set of zones."

So, what exactly defines the difference between a themepark and a sandbox?  When does a sandbox turn into a themepark, and when does  a themepark turn into a sandbox.  And what happens when you have a "starter zone" which basically is a "themepark" and then you get let out, and now there is no more linear progression... suddenly its a sandbox... what are those?  Theme park?  Sandbox?  Theme in sand?  A themebox?  A sand park?  If you have a "theme park" setup in the middle to "prepare" players to get to an effective lvl before they are let out in the "big bad wild."  Does that keep it a theme park?  Does that piss off the "I'm a real man, look at my set swing... don't need nothin to hold them up, baby!" because the game held their hand for the first half / 3/4s / whole game???  Until you can get into the realy world...

I don't understand this whole "hardcore" vs "newbie" argument.

WOuldn't it be safe to assume that a "hardcore" player is truly nothing more than someone who has played 1 or 2 MMOs before, so that when he steps into a NEW MMO, when he sees the "theme" part, since he already "knows" most of this info, he gets annoyed, whereas a newbie is just someone who has never played an MMO before, and thus doesn't mind having his hand held.

Isn't a "hardcore" player nothing more than a "grown up newbie" who still wants to keep playing?

-Kelemit

I'd be willing to call anything that has a handful of different ways to play/advance/whatever, that AREN'T just an afterthought or a nerfed form of play.   Things like PvP, changing the world, and other cliches of "sandbox" are just there because that's what the developers choose to add.

I'd also add another semi-requirement that all the forms of play/mechanics have to thought out in the sense that they have to interact with each other thouroughly.

Its weird. But i get a special feeling when i login to a sandbox MMO. And i dont get it when i login to a themepark MMO. Maybe it have something with expectations to do, i dont know.

By some means i just know when a MMO is sandbox or themepark. So its hard to say what it is. One thing is the simple thing of beeing able to run in any direction from the noob area without something to stop you. And maybe the feeling of not having an idea of whay to do.

for me the descision would be fundamental bevore even thinking about an mmo

the descision is either:

"I want to make a game that tells a story and has the following game mechanics" > theme park or

"I want to simulate a world for example a scifi or fantasy setting, once the world is set ill give players the following options to interact with it" > sandbox

for me the difference is between creating a client for either an adventure game (theme park) or something similar to 2nd life (sandbox)

sandbox for me is not developing a game without story. its about moving the complexity of the virtual world away from gaming concepts (like soccer, dodgeball) towards stuff that happens on the server like resources and (monster) population management, trading and building mechanics, world altering effects (like weather, seasons) and so on.

i think even the poster boy for sandbox gaming, darkfall has only little code for world simulation and substitutes sandbox for an environment that doesnt change much but concentrates on player to player interaction in opposition to a story driven (themepark) game where a lot of NPC> Player Interaction is happening

aye sandbox is about expressing ones own arts , theme park is more of an explore to find interesting things.

i will try to explain on most sandbox game i played, Shadowbane

Very few npc and not a single quest. I mean. If there are any quest, they are given by other players, like somebody is hiring you to kill some annoying pk or defend his guilds mine for the time its vulnerable to attack. If you succeed, you get paid with gold/stuff. Or you are not paid and make your own quest to kill the freaking cheater and his whole guild.

You can go to any place in the world from lvl1. Sure you wil most probably die in the way, but skilled player can dodge all the mobs to reach his destination.

You are not divided into some shitty faction. You decide on your own, on which side are you, or are you are bad or evil. And you can change anytime. You can even kill your party member if you want.

The world is player driven. Every city is raised and owned by guilds. Every single one can be destroyed.

Finally, your actions are meaningfull. Your allegiance matters. Unlike in themepark where there is totally zero impact on the world when you complete quests.

Generally speaking theme parks are quest based to progress the story of your character, and tell the lore to you.
I prefer to call these Quest based games.

I don't like calling games sandbox, instead I call them open-ended games.
These games may or may not have quests.
If the do have quests they generally few and far between, or simply there to make money.
These games let the player decide what they what to do, and usually are player driven.

The reason I don't like call a game sandbox is because I define snadbox, as a element of a game that allows you to ignore how the game is meant to played, and do your own thing. Most MMOs have a Sandbox element to them. 

Originally posted by kelemit

Just like the title says.  What is the difference between a Theme Park and a Sandbox game?

One of the most distinct differences between the two design approaches is that in a theme park you are led from one 'ride' to the next, whereas in sandboxes players choose their path - they are given a pail, shovel and some molds and let loose on the environment.

A character's progression in a theme park  is almost identical to the progression path of every other character in the theme park. To use WOW as an example, every troll will start in the Valley of Trials and then move Razor Hill and then to Orgrimmar to train and then head to the Crossroads. In the Crossroads they will kill their ten striders then kill their ten lions then search for the three raptor nests.

A character's progression in a sandbox is more open-ended. A player could actually document a unique history of the activities of his character and his guild.

There's pros and cons to both. The most obvious advantage to a themepark is that the entire design of the game is to constantly entertain you and provide tasks for you to do. The biggest advantage of the sandbox is that players are given tools to create objects and tasks to entertain themselves andothers.

Look at your character's history in any MMO. If the history looks unique, it was more than likely an MMO that was very sandbox-heavy in design. If it looks like everyone else's it was probably an MMO that had many trhemepark elements.

They don't mean anything, they are very vague.

Sandbox is a term mostly used to connote intelligence, creativity and freedom, whatever that means to you is debatable.  Themepark is used as an insult to what is thought as simple minded, linear gameplay.  Sandbox is usually synonomous with good, themepark bad.

Keep in mind who uses the terms though, mostly the "hard" core gamers, suggestive tone of voice optional.  They generally have the same kind of features in mind, like death penalties, item decay, but it can vary to a significant degree the meaning of sandbox to them.  If they feel a game requires intelligence, creativity and allows freedom then it is a sandbox, if not it is a themepark.

You don't really see WoW players going around saying they like themepark games.

Sandbox does not describe a set of features, more a feeling.  If all that was wanted was a description of features we already have words for that, much more specific words, like sim, skill based, FFA PvP.  As it stands now sandbox means more along the lines of elite or hardcore rather then anything gameplay related, whether intended or not.

And truth being the meanings of sandbox and themepark only hold meaning within MMORPGs.  Non-MMO sandbox games like GTA, Assassin's Creed, Crackdown and Mercenaries, self described sandbox games by the developers and press, would not be sandbox games according to some of the sandbox crowd as it does not meet the specific standard they hold.  Whereas in the non MMO realm, sandboxes are any game that allows the players to freely ingore the game objectives and explore and do things in an open world, so sandbox is concerned only with world design, nothing about features, a definition every MMO I have played meets.  Themepark on the other hand doesn't mean anything to anybody except to those of the sandboxers that use it.

I think the use of the terms hold back games by trying to force games into highly subjective and ultimately pointless categories.  It is like arguing over the first M in MMORPG, it is subjective and deeming a game not an MMO because it isn't massive enough doesn't help describe a game or convey ideas, same as sandbox and themepark. 

It more feeds the us verses them mentality.  You see threads complaining about not being able to find a sandbox game, then someone suggests one and it turn out not to meet the OP's specific definition of sandbox game.  And you get threads about how the genre is doomed as developers only make themepark games for the stupid bleeting masses and the players that want real challenge and freedom are ignored, blah blah blah.

They are placeholders more in depth thought and discussion.  That is why I like the Dev Corner, people talk about actual mechanics and don't gab on about sandbox vs themepark or complain about how they are such geniuses and everyone is so dumb, see the pub for that.

To help you understand better, let me use an example of single player game.

Fallout is most sandbox game u have out there. You have various endings and many options how to defeat obstacles. You can just kill all npc, rob them from crucial items needed or use charisma to get what you want. You can finish game very fast or explore the world and do many side quest that have impact on ending movie.

Diablo is perhaps most themepark. You just go from point to point each and everytime the same way. 

I hope this helps. BTW if u didnt play fallout, dont even admit it or you will be banned from every gamer community.

Thanks alot for all the replies,

I'm not really looking for an explanation as to who says what, or what it means.  I understand the "feeling" of the meaning that most people impart to it.  And I myself understand that same feeling.  I "feel" it too, when I step into a WORLD vs ... something else?   Whatever that else is.

What I don't understand is "what that thing" is...  Most people who have posted above, have basically said what I have already stated, or said something that obviuosly isn't the difference between the "sandbox" and "themepark."

One example is that sandbox characters will have UNIQUE histories, whereas themepark characters will all have the same or similar histories.  But the fact of the matter is, that both will have pretty much the same ore similar histories.  Especially as that MMO ages and "lvling" guides come out to help people know the most efficient path to lvling.  AT that point, EVERYONE will have almost IDENTICAL history.

If you argue that one COULD have unique histories, then you can say the same about themepark people, too.  THe arguement that a "themepark" character will gimp himself is just as valid to a sandbox character.  The only argument that MAY not work would be for what we would argue as "themepark" characters HAVING to do a quest to unlock a special ability or utility to make them more powerful.  But a sandbox will end up doing the same thing, if there is ANYWHERE that a "certain item / skill / etc" makes a character stronger.  It may be SHIFTED in its similarity, ie:  a themepark may have the similarity at the quest location, but the sandbox will have the similarity at the "farming for the unique item to give to a crafter to make me the uber weapon" location.

BOth result in the same thing, all "people of class ZZZ" will do this quest to get this item, whereas in a sandbox, all "people of class (skill grouping choice) ZZZ" will kill this mob to get this item to give it to the crafter.

ANother statement was that one could go anywhere in the gameworld, even from lvl 1.  I believe that is true of WoW (don't quote me, may be wrong only played beta) and is definitely true of War.  You can go anywhere, with skill at evading the different mobs.  Same is true of Sandbox.  So I don't know if that is necesarrily true.

Another pointed out that Fallout is a sandbox game.  But I woudl argue that its differenc eis almost nill to a themepark.  THe endings are limited, you cannot choose / make your own ending.  (you must choose a developer ending).  You can choose how FAST or SLOW you go through all the content offered to you, but... YOU MUST go through all the content, and you MUST go through all the content (especially of the main story line) IN THE IDENTICAL order as ALL others.  Even the "side quests" as they were mentioned, still are in order, base don lvl and or pre-requisite quests.  (And.. i'm making a guess here, I've never played fallout, not my kind of game... and no... not afraid to mention it because real gamers don't ostrasize others because they have their own likes / dislikes... or ... are gamers immature?? heh).  But, the result is the same.  Linear gameplay with optional quests whereby even if you travel anywhere in the world, you must come back to your "next quest waypoint" in your storyline to continue the story onto the next stage.  (except for some possible storylines / quest lines that are started by a phone call or email ... which means they can start from anywhere in the game world, but i'm sure 99% of the time they will END UP at the same place... no MATTER WHER EYOU ARE OR HOW MANY TIMES YOU PLAY!)

Now, most of you will say, duh, that is the nature of the game, it has to be static... to a certain extent.

But thats my point, why is fallout sandbox, even though its jsut as linear or almost as linear as a "themepark."

Another point a poster made was that being FORCED into factions is a themepark!  Then DAoC MUST be a themepark, as well as EQ... but I dont' very much ANYONE would EVER say either one of those 2 are Themparks... 

All these arguments are good, but don't nail the actual problem.  WHAT IS a themepark!!!  ANd HOW do we NOT get trapped by it?

I KNOW Warhammer was a themepark... I felt it when I walked in.. it was WIERD!  I enjoyed it for a while, about 30 lvls, but just began to feel more and more.. empty playing it.  IT WAS FUN!!!  But it wasn't... what I FELT an MMO should be... a WORLD should be... The world felt DEAD!  But when I played DAoC, it felt ALIVE!  I donno.

As I've been writing this, some ideas have begun percolating in my brain.  Let me throw this out there and see if anyone has some ideas / clarification so I can nail specifics.

I think, walking into a Sandbox, one feels two things.

1.  A sense of wonder about what is around the corner.  There is no sure idea of whats coming next.  No one knows whats out there... or... maybe they do, but its only a CHANCE that you will meet or find or see it.  Walking out into the world feels like you don't know whats coming next.  

But in a themepark, YOU KNOW whats coming next.  I think this is ALMOST related to what the poster above said about how each character has a UNIQUE history, but I believe it is subtly different.  Its not that the history is unique, its that the future is unknown.  In a themepark, the future IS known.  In a "sandbox," atleast the FIRST time you play, the future is NOT known.

Now, I believe this also has some bearing on the idea that gameplay changes over time, not necessarily that you no longer are fighting, or now you are crafting, but fighting becomes different, the character develops and thus playstyle must change.  (I MAY BE SOOOOO WRONG with this.... Just a (in the last 10 seconds) kind of thought... but thrown out to wrestle with it).

2.  The 2nd thing a Sandbox gives, I think, is a sense of danger.  I DON"T KNOW WHY!!!  But I guess that somehow they just do!  At this point, a themepark and a sandbox are no different.  It is simply a question of how hard BOTH games choose to make their mob AI, and / or how strong they hit in comparison to a player.  Are Equal con mobs truly equally? ie: 50/50 chance that you win or die?  Or are equal mobs easy, to the point you mow through them like a ... ... what?  Machine gun?  

I don't know how to describe this, or not, but I think it comes in combo with number one.  When you step out into the big blue, you don't know what you will find, and when you do get there, you are shocked and afraid at all the danger around you.  Maybe i'm describing this wrong... I have to think about this more... not sure.

Am I on the right track?  Or no? 

-Kelemit

Originally posted by kelemit

As I've been writing this, some ideas have begun percolating in my brain.  Let me throw this out there and see if anyone has some ideas / clarification so I can nail specifics.

 

I think, walking into a Sandbox, one feels two things.

1.  A sense of wonder about what is around the corner.  There is no sure idea of whats coming next.  No one knows whats out there... or... maybe they do, but its only a CHANCE that you will meet or find or see it.  Walking out into the world feels like you don't know whats coming next.  

But in a themepark, YOU KNOW whats coming next.  I think this is ALMOST related to what the poster above said about how each character has a UNIQUE history, but I believe it is subtly different.  Its not that the history is unique, its that the future is unknown.  In a themepark, the future IS known.  In a "sandbox," atleast the FIRST time you play, the future is NOT known.

Now, I believe this also has some bearing on the idea that gameplay changes over time, not necessarily that you no longer are fighting, or now you are crafting, but fighting becomes different, the character develops and thus playstyle must change.  (I MAY BE SOOOOO WRONG with this.... Just a (in the last 10 seconds) kind of thought... but thrown out to wrestle with it).

 

2.  The 2nd thing a Sandbox gives, I think, is a sense of danger.  I DON"T KNOW WHY!!!  But I guess that somehow they just do!  At this point, a themepark and a sandbox are no different.  It is simply a question of how hard BOTH games choose to make their mob AI, and / or how strong they hit in comparison to a player.  Are Equal con mobs truly equally? ie: 50/50 chance that you win or die?  Or are equal mobs easy, to the point you mow through them like a ... ... what?  Machine gun?  

I don't know how to describe this, or not, but I think it comes in combo with number one.  When you step out into the big blue, you don't know what you will find, and when you do get there, you are shocked and afraid at all the danger around you.  Maybe i'm describing this wrong... I have to think about this more... not sure.

 

Am I on the right track?  Or no? 

-Kelemit

You got yourself turned around in yoru conclusions.

The 'sense of wonder' thing is purely an aspect of how familar the game content is.  Whenever I try a new thing in WoW I get a 'sense of wonder' because it is new and I do not know how things will turn out.  When I played EVE I would lose the 'sense of wonder' after I done an activity for a while and regain it if I tried something new.  It's purely tied into the quality and longevity of the content.

The difficulty of the game is also not a direct aspect of whether it is themepark or sandbox.  You can have really difficult themparks and really easy sandboxes.

The problem with nailing down the definitions is because thempark games contain a lot of sandbox elements and sandbox games have a lot of thempark elements.  A 'pure themepark' would be as boring as a 'pure sandbox' would be tedious.

Originally posted by Torik

You got yourself turned around in yoru conclusions.

The 'sense of wonder' thing is purely an aspect of how familar the game content is.  Whenever I try a new thing in WoW I get a 'sense of wonder' because it is new and I do not know how things will turn out.  When I played EVE I would lose the 'sense of wonder' after I done an activity for a while and regain it if I tried something new.  It's purely tied into the quality and longevity of the content.

The difficulty of the game is also not a direct aspect of whether it is themepark or sandbox.  You can have really difficult themparks and really easy sandboxes.

The problem with nailing down the definitions is because thempark games contain a lot of sandbox elements and sandbox games have a lot of thempark elements.  A 'pure themepark' would be as boring as a 'pure sandbox' would be tedious.

I misinformed, I apologize.

The "sense of wonder" I am describing is not one of newness, although there is a sense of wonder involved in that.  That sense of wonder is one of seeing something for the first time, or finding a new object / skill, or discovering... well... something new!

The sense of wonder I'm ATTEMPTING to describe is a wonder of the unknown.  Not wonder over something new, but literally one of just no knowledge of where you will "end up." 

I guess the best example I can give is War.  War, you KNOW where you are going to end up.  You know that the end result of all your work will be running into the enemies "capital" city, or defending yours.  It will always and forever be where you will be.  One of these two places.  And you will always progress towards that point.

In a sandbox, the end result may be similar (or even identical for badly designed / very restrictive class type mmos) to everyone else, but where you end up can be considerably different.  What you will DO can be considerably different.

I don't know if I'm explaining this well... sigh.  But there is an "unknowningness" to this that brings about a sense of wonder.

As for danger... I did say that themepark and sandbox are no different, if you read my post.  It is a matter of choice on how hard developers want to make their game / monsters, as it were.

I believe I didn't explain myself well on this point either, but what I was trying to get across was also this sense of "unknownness" as above, but no it exudes a sense of deep fear and danger. 

But there is a missing element here that I can't seem to place.... my clarity seems to be at a loss here.

I apologize.  I will stop and think more carefully / clearly through ideas.

As for the "tediousness" vs "boringness" of sandbox to themepark... that is an interesting observation.  I will also ponder that.  The question then appears to be that sandbox to themepark is nothing more than a sliding scale from directed content to total freedom.  But maybe one would argue then, that a "boring themepark offers little to no freedom, and directed content is the only option, whereas total tedious sandbox offers total freedom with NO content.  So then, the perfect mmo would be massive / huge amounts of directed content (everything from quests to storyline driven game play to multiple / various game types within teh game) with total freedom to do any of the directed content, or completely ignore the directed content, and create your own content that STILL CAN INTERACT / AFFECT (minorly... donno if you can make it a major effect) the directed content available to all players... hmm....  Or... somehow allow players to create their own directed content... and allow other players to affect that directed content... (but wouldn't this be the same thing as "tedious sandbox"... or is there a fundamental difference...)  Sigh.... still wrestling with this.

Sincerely,

-Kelemit

I'll try to explain the best I can.

Basically "Theme Park" is a game method that gives clear-cut goals for the players that define a set pacing from beginning to end, most of the time. Free Realms has some sandboxy aspects in that you can really go anywhere and do the same kinds of quests in different locations, but there is stil a bit of pacing due to the level gaps - and that is fine in it's case. Most of the time these games set up an expectation that all there is to do in the game will have markers and quest objectives to lead you along. When all is said and done it tends to feel empty, so they add things like crafting, fishing and other sandboxy gameplay alternatives - but if they are in no way complimetary to the character, or neccesary in terms of economy, it becomes useless fluff that resembles a cycling task with no real reward that can't be trumped from something gained in typical questing. Theme Parks games rarely look at the "big picture" in time to remedy it, and that issue would be "what to do at endgame".

A Sandbox game is a very loose term for games that either leave a lot of the content and goal-structure to the player's imagination, but the best implementation of the genre allows players to feel rewarded by exploring and hunting things on his own. This can be done in games like SWG and Wurm where you [want] to go get lost in the woods and build a private settlement, or with others, and from there you just get creative with mechanics that have to be put in that allow you to do so. Changing the game world like this is big in sandboxes, like claiming your section of the play-pit, but otherwise there are games where fighting things one on one is really hard - and the rewards just as great. When these mobs are few and far between the game is less about grinding mobs, and becomes a personal quest in exploring and hunting them. People who bitch about worlds being to barren must not have a good fight ahead of them, or are just not getting something out of it that matters. In the end though, sandbox means the game is "open to suggestion" from players - even if all the game is about is grinding mobs with no quest structure - the lowest form of sandbox.

There is no real problem with either genre, but one is either too much for some, or not enough or others. So devs typically say ahead of time "this is what I want", and then just add a few TP or SB elements that fit the theme or would simply be complimentary to gameplay, economy or social structure.