Originally posted by DrSpanky

Originally posted by Hegron

Hardcore died the day blizzard realised they could make more money out of casuals, few games companies will break that trend, they are in the business of making money, and casuals makes the more. Besides, it is just a game, who wants to devote their life to playing it, most people want a game they can jump into, have fun and jump out of and then get on with real life.

The days of hardcore have come and gone, and they will never be catered for as the forefront of mmo’s again. The new model is family and friend guilds, easy to attain goals, look at wow, it has become more successful the more it has changed over the last year or two, and will continue to grow. If you want hardcore in your life, juggle two jobs and bring up a family, otherwise realise its just a game, and if you don’t like the new style of mmo's then move along to something you do like.
 

That, my friend, was extremely well said.

I agree that this is the way the industry has gone, but I also hate it, tbh.

Not only is designing content for 5% of your playerbase inefficient, the type of challenges associated with "hardcore" MMORPG gaming... getting forty people online that know what they are doing for five hours on a weekend... isn't the type of logistical hassle that most people like to engage in for fun.  I'd be all for a game that had a challenging leveling experience and required a higher degree of coordination to progress but hopefully the "Raid or Die" mentality has seen its last successful incarnation with World of Warcraft.  Not that raids are a bad thing per se, but I get tired of them being put on a pedastal as some type of superior or pure MMORPG play style that needs to carry with it some sort of inherently superior reward.  It's time for the genre to expand, and rewards should be based off of skill instead of time commitment. 

Originally posted by red_cruiser

Not only is designing content for 5% of your playerbase inefficient, the type of challenges associated with "hardcore" MMORPG gaming... getting forty people online that know what they are doing for five hours on a weekend... isn't the type of logistical hassle that most people like to engage in for fun.  I'd be all for a game that had a challenging leveling experience and required a higher degree of coordination to progress but hopefully the "Raid or Die" mentality has seen its last successful incarnation with World of Warcraft.  Not that raids are a bad thing per se, but I get tired of them being put on a pedastal as some type of superior or pure MMORPG play style that needs to carry with it some sort of inherently superior reward.  It's time for the genre to expand, and rewards should be based off of skill instead of time commitment. 

I have no problem with that if skill is like Counter Strike where you can truely dominate other players by pure skill. Like I've been playing Counter Strike since 2000 and I can dominate most people and they'll never have a chance to kill me. I don't want it to be changed by gear or class cause then it's not skill based and you might aswel just admit it's about time.

While I will always be playing MY game...

...welcome to the wonderful world post-Wii.

Where catering to the casual retard that can't control a joystick with more than 4 buttons always wins.

WoW keeps getting mentioned about how it is destroying "hardcore" content yet WoW has been making steps to allow the hardcore to show off their e-peen.

WoWs hard mode raid bosses and achievements allow the hardcore the chance to show casuals they are better than them. Yeah, the lowly casual will "ooh" and "aah" but truthfully they dont care. They just dont want to hurt the fragile ego of the harcore players. They understand that thier life is so empty they have to live vicariously through a video game and get appraisal from people you will never meet.

So, there are ways for people to show others how freakin' hardcore they are but like the hardcore players themselves they are mostly superficial.

Anything that goes mainstream turns into crap - it's always been that way and gaming is no different.

BUT...  the hardcore community remains and even grows as some of the masses who are introduced to whatever it is eventually become really hardcore about it themselves.  It's just not at the forefront anymore.

As for MMOs, there's still plenty of hardcore MMOs out there - EvE, Vanguard, and Darkfall come to mind - and they're still being made.  Just dont expect the masses to give them glowing reviews - after all, these games aren't made for them.  Log in and see for yourself.  If you like it and have fun, who cares if only 0.5% of the MMO community is actually playing it so long as it turns a modest profit and remains supproted?

Originally posted by JGMIII

Originally posted by Cephus404

It depends on what you mean by "hardcore".  If it's that you play the game 18+ hours a day so you can play your twinked characters and somehow "win" the game and have everyone look up to you, that's not hardcore, that's a loser who needs a life.  People like that are why games like Everquest got the title "EverCrack", because these people were treating it as a drug they were addicted to and played obsessively.

If that's you, seek professional help.

 What's wrong with challenging content that requires a real time investment? 

It's not like casual players cant also enjoy that content in small chunks.

Why must you peg someone a loser for wanting to feel good about the time they invested in a character?

There's nothing wrong with it, in fact I've argued that MMOs inherently do require a real time investment in the anti-gold-buying threads, but there's such a thing as going too far the other way as well.  MMOs are games, nothing more, nothing less.  If you take it as anything more than a game, you're doing something wrong.  There are far too many people who are investing time in a game that they ought to be investing in real life and those people *ARE* losers.  A game is something that you play when you've got free time.  Some of these people are trying desperately to live vicariously through animated on-line characters swinging swords on a computer screen.

Originally posted by Yamoth

Originally posted by galliard1981

I believe you are seriously mistaken what hardcore means. Hardcore is player who is better than majority, not one that spent more time on the game.

To me its great where everybody has easy access to the best items and only skill matters who pwns who. Guild wars being best example of game which allows to show everybody who the leet is. I am not talking about rare armor, which requires only grind, but titles achieved through skilled gameplay, especially pvp titles.

Again,

nolife doesnt equal hardcore

 

That is kind of true.  Hardcore player play for the game, the rush to the top.  We mainly do it to be the so we can say we conqure it all, and be the first if possible.  Real hardcore player don't give a rat ass about the gear since it was never really that hard for them to get their hand on them in the first place.  All the hardcore player ever care about is getting to the top, not about who get there after them.  But in order to get to the top in the first place, we do spend a stupid amount of the playing the game in a short period of time.

Then those hardcores that rushed to the endgame and to be first, are also the first to bitch at the game devs that the game is too easy. Then they jump ship n off to the next new MMO to do the same thing all over again. So why should Devs concentrate on the Hardcores who are the first to get there and the first to leave? A smart thing would be to concentrate on the players that will keep playing for months if not years, rather than the few that will play a few months.

Hare core players have never been relevant, in terms of financially, or influence.

Originally posted by JGMIII

 

Why must you peg someone a loser for wanting to feel good about the time they invested in a character?

because thats how they feel good about themselves. the "oh I could have what that raider has but i have a life unlike him. he probably spends 18 hours a day in game" defense.

I am a hardcore raider I play my game maybe 20-25 hours a week. figure 4 raids a week about 4 hours on those days thats 16 as well as a couple hours here and there just hanging out with guildies doing 6 man dungeon runs (EQ2). I mean however could I have a life playing on that schedule?!?!

LOL

you casual scrubs need to figure how to manage your time better.

Originally posted by Ravanos

you casual scrubs need to figure how to manage your time better.

And there is reason behind this insult other than to proclaim a non-exsistent superiority?

As to hardcore etc. People may hate WOW but it caters to BOTH hardcore and casual. Achievements. Hard Modes. Better loot from said things. You can have the E-Peen if you want it.

Originally posted by John.A.Zoid

I don't have a problem with creating a game casuals can play but I hate this new thing of dumbing down the game so theres nothing for the hardcore and casuals can get everything.  We've seen this with World of Warcraft where theres nothing really anymore for the hardcore to differentiate themselves from the casual players. Now everyone can have everything and things like epics arn't special anymore and you miss that sense of omg he's badass. In SWG for example there was so much you could do to make yourselves different and the main reason for that is they didn't spoon feed the content to you and you had to work it out for yourselves. The suprising satistics I found of how few people did the things that I did, even other hardcore players and it made me feel proud. However if the game is too easy and thousands upon thousands of people have done that same thing, then you just don't care about doing anything.

Even in TF2 now they looked at how many people had the unlocked weapons and only a small percentage of players did so they decided to change the system to random so everyone had the chance. I just think thats dumb because the hardcore player has to have something to be different from the rest and if everyone had them then they arn't special anymore.

Why should everyone be able to see everything? Alot of people complain about content they wont see but why should they? I just want a game where the time I put into it makes me different and unique so I can feel happy about my character which is important for an mmorpg.

Try Vanguard.  There is definitely a hard-core aspect to that game.  I'm not hard-core, but try to experience both the hard-core content and still enjoy a casual approach due to limited play-time.  They just introduced Pantheon of the Ancients and a new level cap.  Any new hard-core players would have many months ahead of them before they could get to the top tier stuff.

Originally posted by Cortechs

Additionally, there are games out there that provide more than WoW, but players like yourself (I'm generalizing here forgive me) ignore them because they are not mainstream and don't have naked dark elf females.  The Chronicles of Spellborn is a prime example.  That has a wonderful skill/ability system, quests that don't tell you exactly where to go unlike WoW/WAR, and probably the best PvP (due to the skill system and more dynamic combat).  But the playerbase is tiny because it doesn't have Orcs, naked elves, and isn't a copy/paste from EQ/EQ2/WoW/WAR, etc.

Hey I agree the Fantasy thing is overdone and love seeing something different but seriously, TCoS is just not that fun of a game. I downloaded the trial to try out the PvP combat and the whole spinning rows of spells thing was just boring to me. I've never been into the Asian hackfests so I might have been biased against the game from the start but it was far from the best PvP.
 

I'd love to see a game with the AoC combat system, SWG crafting system, DAoC style RvR, be polished at launch and run on older systems like WoW and offer a mixture of 10, 25 and 48 man raids with variable difficulties from WoW and EQ. Wrap it all up in an Underworld/Vamp/Werewolf theme and call it casual hardcore so everyones happy .

Games are not hardcore.  People mistake games that are loaded with time sinks to be hardcore.

You want hardcore?  Turn off the computer, go outside and experience life.  That's hardcore.

Hardcore and casual...hhmm. Well, This trend you speak of was started before WOW, sorry. WOW gets the blame for alot of things because it is the game on top. Shadows of Luclin or Planes of Power anyone? Even UO got backlash from the 'hardcore' with it's changes. So sorry, Blizzard did not start the trend. Funny, WOW, it seems, is the most hated game among 'hardcore' mmoers yet it is the game everyone still talks about all the time. There are plenty of 'hardcore' games out there you just need to look a little harder if you dont see them ;)

Casual or Hardcore there are games that fit all tastes on the market. Enough of the bashing and flaming and complaining. There are hundreds of mmo's out there. There is bound to be something everyone of us can like and have fun with. Labels of hardcore or casual are not needed. Play what you like. If you can not find one you like? Dont play anything, move on to a different genre.

as others have said in different phrasings: what is hardcore then? all it is is more time in the game with a lot of grind.

It still exists, just not in the newest releases perhaps. Although, imagine say WoW - so you have 10 alts all geared up and achievements galore. no casual player has that.

Originally posted by JonMichael

Games are not hardcore.  People mistake games that are loaded with time sinks to be hardcore.

You want hardcore?  Turn off the computer, go outside and experience life.  That's hardcore.

 

For me personally a Hardcore game is actually challenging, sure it could have timesinks but what game doesn't?

Games that have harsh death penalties and are more forced grouping or group centric are hardcore to me.

A MMO like Final fantasy with ultra hard raids and a group centric game world is a hardcore game. A game like Eve with a Learning cliff and harsh death penalty are hardcopre games.

I wish you guys would stop telling me to go outside though I have a full time job and spend a massive amount of time with my Wife and children outdoors. Stop pegging everyone that wants a challenging experience as a basement dwelling loser.

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

Hare core players have never been relevant, in terms of financially, or influence.

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

Hare core players have never been relevant, in terms of financially, or influence.

 

Because Hardcore Gamers don't exist.

Hardcore or challenging games do however.

im amazed that people dont think wow is 'hardcore'. any game that has you on a relentless,never ending loot treadmill that takes up hours and hours of your daily life is pretty hardcore (and time wasting) to me. great way to throw away years of your life I suppose, but hey, atleast you got some shiny purple belts and shoes!

in reality there is no such thing as a hardcore game, and those who use the term very likely lead a very sheltered existance. its not hardcore cos you lost your pixelated spaceship in EVE or your pixelated axe in darkfall, all that happened was you lost some pixels in a game and now youre going to have to grind even harder to make up for all the time youve just wasted.

I dislike the terms hardcore and casual as they seem to cater to one very select part of the gaming community, namingly a group of whiners who are constantly crowing and whining because they dont like some aspect in a game, which of course makes a devs job even harder to balance everything out.

I believe valve changed the weapon unlocks to random because they didnt want achievement grind servers being the basis of unlocks, not to appease 'casuals' (though they screwed it up by letting idlers get stuff too). its interesting to note that the first people to whinge, whine and cry were the ones who had spent 16 hours on the first day trying to unlock everything to no avail. would these people be considered hardcore, or casual?