The so-called "hardcore" players have a lot of options in various games where they can choose a higher level of difficultly so as to play "hardcore". Yet they won't do this....make you wonder why, doesn't it?

This option has been discussed several times in threads like this but the so-called "hardcore" players reject this option over and over again with lame excuses...which pretty much tells you all you need to know about the "hardcore" mindset.

Sorry if this comes across harsh, but when you see the same complaint posted from a sub-group of players that have simple access to the tools to change a game into what they request.....it just makes the complaints invalid.

Simple as that.

Originally posted by Hammertime1

The so-called "hardcore" players have a lot of options in various games where they can choose a higher level of difficultly so as to play "hardcore". Yet they won't do this....make you wonder why, doesn't it?

This option has been discussed several times in threads like this but the so-called "hardcore" players reject this option over and over again with lame excuses...which pretty much tells you all you need to know about the "hardcore" mindset.

 

Sorry if this comes across harsh, but when you see the same complaint posted from a sub-group of players that have simple access to the tools to change a game into what they request.....it just makes the complaints invalid.

Simple as that.

I would love a difficulty option in MMOs.

Kinda like what guild wars does after I finish leveling and go through the storyline i can switch on hard mode and the entire game is now a challenge to me at top level.

I love stuff like that, What player that loves a challenge wouldn't?

Originally posted by John.A.Zoid

I don't have a problem with creating a game casuals can play but I hate this new thing of dumbing down the game so theres nothing for the hardcore and casuals can get everything.  We've seen this with World of Warcraft where theres nothing really anymore for the hardcore to differentiate themselves from the casual players. Now everyone can have everything and things like epics arn't special anymore and you miss that sense of omg he's badass. 

It didn't work when they did hardcore for Sunwell, so why should they do it now?  I needs to prove I are hardcore, right?  Prove with skill, not with gear.

Originally posted by lethys

Originally posted by John.A.Zoid

I don't have a problem with creating a game casuals can play but I hate this new thing of dumbing down the game so theres nothing for the hardcore and casuals can get everything.  We've seen this with World of Warcraft where theres nothing really anymore for the hardcore to differentiate themselves from the casual players. Now everyone can have everything and things like epics arn't special anymore and you miss that sense of omg he's badass. 

It didn't work when they did hardcore for Sunwell, so why should they do it now?  I needs to prove I are hardcore, right?  Prove with skill, not with gear.

Problem is mmorpgs are about Gear and developing your character. They arn't like CS where the hardcore player can wipe out a whole server because he's so good. So mmorpgs need to allow hardcore players to make themselves stand out from the casual.

Originally posted by John.A.Zoid

Problem is mmorpgs are about Gear and developing your character. They arn't like CS where the hardcore player can wipe out a whole server because he's so good. So mmorpgs need to allow hardcore players to make themselves stand out from the casual.

This is exactly what Dana was referring to in the "Throw out the rulebook" article.

Originally posted by John.A.Zoid

Originally posted by lethys

Originally posted by John.A.Zoid

I don't have a problem with creating a game casuals can play but I hate this new thing of dumbing down the game so theres nothing for the hardcore and casuals can get everything.  We've seen this with World of Warcraft where theres nothing really anymore for the hardcore to differentiate themselves from the casual players. Now everyone can have everything and things like epics arn't special anymore and you miss that sense of omg he's badass. 

It didn't work when they did hardcore for Sunwell, so why should they do it now?  I needs to prove I are hardcore, right?  Prove with skill, not with gear.

 

Problem is mmorpgs are about Gear and developing your character. They arn't like CS where the hardcore player can wipe out a whole server because he's so good. So mmorpgs need to allow hardcore players to make themselves stand out from the casual.

so you claim that mmorpg are for noskill losers who need to raise their self esteem? sadly.... you are right in great part, really most of mmos are only about grind, like Last Chaos.

Again, different understanding of what hardcore means doesnt allow to come to any agreement. Further discussion impossible.

Their is no such thing as hardcore in games you dummy.

personally i like having a challenge to get super special items....i like having to work my ass off to achieve things in games, gives me a better sense of accomplishment, this is one of the reasons i quit WoW and am awaiting another game that isnt on easy mode.

IMPO a MMO needs to be balanced. On the one hand I understand the OP that at some point making games too easy you take the feeling of accomplishment away. Playing LOTRO for example. They handed out levels WAY too easy and too fast. I won't judge WOW here, I have only played it very brief. LOTRO is very very easy, and consequently as nice as LOTRO was it had little meaning to me. There IS such a thing as a too easy game.

On the other hand, IMO any MMO should allow at least a version of everything attainable for casual gamers. Let me make an example.

In Vanguard you can own Flying Mounts only at endgame and with very great dedication. When you play only casual, it remains out of reach. Why not make a balance, and give hardcore players some uber Flying Mount, but some simple, slower version also for say level 30 and soloable? In a similar fashion as EQ2 housing is made. You get housing right away in the cheap form of a appartment room, affordable for starters with very casual playstyle. And you have everything up to a large luxurious manor in store, for people playing hardcore. In that way you have some form for everyone, and even casual players don't feel totally left out.

There is nothing I loathed more than knowing a certain sphere of a game was shut out for me, because I dont want to invest all my spare time to a hobby like it were work. At the end of my day I want some small, nice something to have, some new pair of boots, a new sword, something, maybe even just decorative, even if I just played an hour or so, to make me feel like I accomplished something, and not only limit this feeling to very long term gameplay. In that way I disagree with the OP. A MMo is no personal proving ground for the ego. it is above all a game meant to enjoy. As many MMOs are made, everything interesting is so expensive or bound to such ridiculous grind, casual gamers will always feel like trash gamers, and a fun time hobby is not for people with an ego to proof!

But I halfway agree than some MMOs cheapen the gameplay, when everything is handed out too cheap and too fast. Still, as it is usually applied, hardcore wasnt "difficult" it was just a form of timesink. And timesink are not hard or difficult, they are just boring. Grinding the uber mount X in the MMO Y for half a year is not hardcore, it is only dull and stupid. THAT is the most important confusion in this entire matter. Difficulty has nothing to do with a repetitive timesink, but that is what we see in most MMOs.

I used to be so frustrated with EQ2 in its first years, when everything interesting was so expensive and so far away from my reach, I was aware that most cool stuff I would never ever have with my casual playstyle, and that just takes A LOT of motivation away. A game should not make people feel second best, only because they have a RL.

The bottom line for me is, I pay as much as any other bloke, so I want to see everything I pay for.

Where is this notion that everything in the game must be available to every single player.  I don't know about the rest of you people, but when I play, I marvel at the thought of things being out of my reach. That some enormous beasts stand on a volcanic peak, staring across the doomed landscape, waiting vigilant for only the most dedicated and coordinated to come for a challenge.

Where is the mystique of mythical lands and items when literally anyone can achieve it. Honestly, what's the fucking point.. there is nothing epic in that. I've played MMOs all my life, and I've never been a "hardcore" achiever. I've never been part of a serious raiding guild.. 

But to listen to you people whine that it's not fair that you might not see everything in the game.. ? That's just ridiculous.. Yes, it's a hobby, but it's also a hobby where people are rewarded for the commitment they put into it, just like every other hobby.  If someone's hobby is Texas Hold'em poker, they play it a lot and try to be the best they can, but you don't see every single player piss and moan when they won't let just everybody into high-class tournaments.

Honestly, if you can't enjoy the content you have, what makes you think you're going to enjoy the end-game content if it's simply handed to you? Simple answer, you won't. You'll bitch that there is nothing left to do and you soon move on to the next venture, consuming everything handed to you once more. That is what you are, a Consumer, literally and by market terms.

Note: I also never group with people like this.. Your impatient and whining nature dissolves all teamwork and fun in a group setting, and you can be smelled from a mile away.

A MMO's persistent world setting implies "long-term".. as in, play for quite some time. It's not a single-player RPG with a chat box. It's meant to be played for a while, among friends, achieving goals at a comfortable pace.

If they made a game solely for the hardcore, where casuals couldn't get anywhere in a game, the game wouldn't be successful. For the games that are accessible 90% of the game, but that 10% of the game is for "hard-cores only" how is it fair for the casual player to pay for a game he or she will never see that last 10%? I'm not saying make everything easy, but don't make it impossible either.

If you want more games to cater towards the 'hardcore', than you have to be willing to keep these games afloat. This means tolerating more issues, and paying more for your games. It's simply reality that the hardcore gamer is well into the minority. Every hardcore MMO has had trouble holding subs, people just remember the nostalgia of the older days when MMOs weren't as popular, and expectations were MUCH lower.

Don't get me wrong, I very much love to play challenging games. However, the simple truth is that most people either don't have the time to see such challenges through, or the desire. Games are having a hard enough time holding people's attention long enough to do simple quests. Good luck holding their attentions long enough to do long, drawn-out, group oriented, and convoluted content.

Originally posted by John.A.Zoid

I Now everyone can have everything and things like epics arn't special anymore and you miss that sense of omg he's badass. In SWG for example there was so much you could do to make yourselves different and the main reason for that is they didn't spoon feed the content to you and you had to work it out for yourselves. The suprising satistics I found of how few people did the things that I did, even other hardcore players and it made me feel proud. However if the game is too easy and thousands upon thousands of people have done that same thing, then you just don't care about doing anything.

Funny thing is, even back in EQ1 I never got the "sense of omg he's badass".  I knew it was just a product of "time invested" back then, just like the majority realize that now.  I always skipped those "news" tidbits about how someone got some weapon, because it was just silly.  It didn't show anything about the skill of the player at all, it just showed how much time they invested, or they got to the content while it was extraordinarily buggy and exploitable (like 99% of EQ1's 'achievements').

Additionally, there are games out there that provide more than WoW, but players like yourself (I'm generalizing here forgive me) ignore them because they are not mainstream and don't have naked dark elf females.  The Chronicles of Spellborn is a prime example.  That has a wonderful skill/ability system, quests that don't tell you exactly where to go unlike WoW/WAR, and probably the best PvP (due to the skill system and more dynamic combat).  But the playerbase is tiny because it doesn't have Orcs, naked elves, and isn't a copy/paste from EQ/EQ2/WoW/WAR, etc.

Originally posted by aeroplane22

Where is this notion that everything in the game must be available to every single player.  I don't know about the rest of you people, but when I play, I marvel at the thought of things being out of my reach. That some enormous beasts stand on a volcanic peak, staring across the doomed landscape, waiting vigilant for only the most dedicated and coordinated to come for a challenge.

Where is the mystique of mythical lands and items when literally anyone can achieve it. Honestly, what's the fucking point.. there is nothing epic in that. I've played MMOs all my life, and I've never been a "hardcore" achiever. I've never been part of a serious raiding guild.. 

But to listen to you people whine that it's not fair that you might not see everything in the game.. ? That's just ridiculous.. Yes, it's a hobby, but it's also a hobby where people are rewarded for the commitment they put into it, just like every other hobby.  If someone's hobby is Texas Hold'em poker, they play it a lot and try to be the best they can, but you don't see every single player piss and moan when they won't let just everybody into high-class tournaments.

Honestly, if you can't enjoy the content you have, what makes you think you're going to enjoy the end-game content if it's simply handed to you? Simple answer, you won't. You'll bitch that there is nothing left to do and you soon move on to the next venture, consuming everything handed to you once more. That is what you are, a Consumer, literally and by market terms.

Note: I also never group with people like this.. Your impatient and whining nature dissolves all teamwork and fun in a group setting, and you can be smelled from a mile away.

A MMO's persistent world setting implies "long-term".. as in, play for quite some time. It's not a single-player RPG with a chat box. It's meant to be played for a while, among friends, achieving goals at a comfortable pace.

this is exactly how I feel as well.  I cant stand the "gimme now and let me do it by myself" mentality that 98% of the players have now.  Look at most the responses in this thread.  Everyone just says get a life or I dont have the time to work my way up to the top and your a loser for wanting a game like this.  If you like games similar to WoW where you can get awesome weapons by yourself in a short amount of time thats great, theres a million mmos for you out there take your pick.  Dont bash people for wanting just 1 half decent game where I have to work towards my goals. 

I loved eq in its classic days BECAUSE I didnt do everything.  I would see entrances to lairs and big huge statues of dragons infront of dungeons and it had this epic mysterious feeling.  I didnt think "well shit i cant run in there with my lvl 2 sword and slay that dragon right now...THIS GAME SUCKS!"  I want to work hard towards my goals and look back when i finally achieve what i set out for.  I have sooooooo many good memories from my hardships in eq because everything was so hard.  Everything was mysterious in that game because I couldnt do everything.  If I saw some huge weapon someone had I wanted to work my way up to attain it, if there was a huge dragon I saw or heard cool stories about I wanted to become stronger so I could take part in killing him. 

This doesnt mean I dont have a life.  In classic eq days I went to school and played football etc etc.  I just didnt get things NOW like everyone seems to want these days.  Now days I work 10 hours a day 6 days on 2 days off and I just dont even feel like playing this new generation of games.  I log on and see someone with some cool sword and its well maybe i can get that in 2 or 3 days.  Wheres the journey in that?  These games are all about the journey, you dont log on and get handed a huge spear and think....ya.....im awesome.

Originally posted by Hegron

Hardcore died the day blizzard realised they could make more money out of casuals, few games companies will break that trend, they are in the business of making money, and casuals makes the more. Besides, it is just a game, who wants to devote their life to playing it, most people want a game they can jump into, have fun and jump out of and then get on with real life.

The days of hardcore have come and gone, and they will never be catered for as the forefront of mmo’s again. The new model is family and friend guilds, easy to attain goals, look at wow, it has become more successful the more it has changed over the last year or two, and will continue to grow. If you want hardcore in your life, juggle two jobs and bring up a family, otherwise realise its just a game, and if you don’t like the new style of mmo's then move along to something you do like.
 

That, my friend, was extremely well said.

Originally posted by DrSpanky

Originally posted by Hegron

Hardcore died the day blizzard realised they could make more money out of casuals, few games companies will break that trend, they are in the business of making money, and casuals makes the more. Besides, it is just a game, who wants to devote their life to playing it, most people want a game they can jump into, have fun and jump out of and then get on with real life.

The days of hardcore have come and gone, and they will never be catered for as the forefront of mmo’s again. The new model is family and friend guilds, easy to attain goals, look at wow, it has become more successful the more it has changed over the last year or two, and will continue to grow. If you want hardcore in your life, juggle two jobs and bring up a family, otherwise realise its just a game, and if you don’t like the new style of mmo's then move along to something you do like.
 

That, my friend, was extremely well said.

I agree that this is the way the industry has gone, but I also hate it, tbh.

Not only is designing content for 5% of your playerbase inefficient, the type of challenges associated with "hardcore" MMORPG gaming... getting forty people online that know what they are doing for five hours on a weekend... isn't the type of logistical hassle that most people like to engage in for fun.  I'd be all for a game that had a challenging leveling experience and required a higher degree of coordination to progress but hopefully the "Raid or Die" mentality has seen its last successful incarnation with World of Warcraft.  Not that raids are a bad thing per se, but I get tired of them being put on a pedastal as some type of superior or pure MMORPG play style that needs to carry with it some sort of inherently superior reward.  It's time for the genre to expand, and rewards should be based off of skill instead of time commitment. 

Originally posted by red_cruiser

Not only is designing content for 5% of your playerbase inefficient, the type of challenges associated with "hardcore" MMORPG gaming... getting forty people online that know what they are doing for five hours on a weekend... isn't the type of logistical hassle that most people like to engage in for fun.  I'd be all for a game that had a challenging leveling experience and required a higher degree of coordination to progress but hopefully the "Raid or Die" mentality has seen its last successful incarnation with World of Warcraft.  Not that raids are a bad thing per se, but I get tired of them being put on a pedastal as some type of superior or pure MMORPG play style that needs to carry with it some sort of inherently superior reward.  It's time for the genre to expand, and rewards should be based off of skill instead of time commitment. 

I have no problem with that if skill is like Counter Strike where you can truely dominate other players by pure skill. Like I've been playing Counter Strike since 2000 and I can dominate most people and they'll never have a chance to kill me. I don't want it to be changed by gear or class cause then it's not skill based and you might aswel just admit it's about time.

While I will always be playing MY game...

...welcome to the wonderful world post-Wii.

Where catering to the casual retard that can't control a joystick with more than 4 buttons always wins.

WoW keeps getting mentioned about how it is destroying "hardcore" content yet WoW has been making steps to allow the hardcore to show off their e-peen.

WoWs hard mode raid bosses and achievements allow the hardcore the chance to show casuals they are better than them. Yeah, the lowly casual will "ooh" and "aah" but truthfully they dont care. They just dont want to hurt the fragile ego of the harcore players. They understand that thier life is so empty they have to live vicariously through a video game and get appraisal from people you will never meet.

So, there are ways for people to show others how freakin' hardcore they are but like the hardcore players themselves they are mostly superficial.

Anything that goes mainstream turns into crap - it's always been that way and gaming is no different.

BUT...  the hardcore community remains and even grows as some of the masses who are introduced to whatever it is eventually become really hardcore about it themselves.  It's just not at the forefront anymore.

As for MMOs, there's still plenty of hardcore MMOs out there - EvE, Vanguard, and Darkfall come to mind - and they're still being made.  Just dont expect the masses to give them glowing reviews - after all, these games aren't made for them.  Log in and see for yourself.  If you like it and have fun, who cares if only 0.5% of the MMO community is actually playing it so long as it turns a modest profit and remains supproted?

Originally posted by JGMIII

Originally posted by Cephus404

It depends on what you mean by "hardcore".  If it's that you play the game 18+ hours a day so you can play your twinked characters and somehow "win" the game and have everyone look up to you, that's not hardcore, that's a loser who needs a life.  People like that are why games like Everquest got the title "EverCrack", because these people were treating it as a drug they were addicted to and played obsessively.

If that's you, seek professional help.

 What's wrong with challenging content that requires a real time investment? 

It's not like casual players cant also enjoy that content in small chunks.

Why must you peg someone a loser for wanting to feel good about the time they invested in a character?

There's nothing wrong with it, in fact I've argued that MMOs inherently do require a real time investment in the anti-gold-buying threads, but there's such a thing as going too far the other way as well.  MMOs are games, nothing more, nothing less.  If you take it as anything more than a game, you're doing something wrong.  There are far too many people who are investing time in a game that they ought to be investing in real life and those people *ARE* losers.  A game is something that you play when you've got free time.  Some of these people are trying desperately to live vicariously through animated on-line characters swinging swords on a computer screen.

Originally posted by Yamoth

Originally posted by galliard1981

I believe you are seriously mistaken what hardcore means. Hardcore is player who is better than majority, not one that spent more time on the game.

To me its great where everybody has easy access to the best items and only skill matters who pwns who. Guild wars being best example of game which allows to show everybody who the leet is. I am not talking about rare armor, which requires only grind, but titles achieved through skilled gameplay, especially pvp titles.

Again,

nolife doesnt equal hardcore

 

That is kind of true.  Hardcore player play for the game, the rush to the top.  We mainly do it to be the so we can say we conqure it all, and be the first if possible.  Real hardcore player don't give a rat ass about the gear since it was never really that hard for them to get their hand on them in the first place.  All the hardcore player ever care about is getting to the top, not about who get there after them.  But in order to get to the top in the first place, we do spend a stupid amount of the playing the game in a short period of time.

Then those hardcores that rushed to the endgame and to be first, are also the first to bitch at the game devs that the game is too easy. Then they jump ship n off to the next new MMO to do the same thing all over again. So why should Devs concentrate on the Hardcores who are the first to get there and the first to leave? A smart thing would be to concentrate on the players that will keep playing for months if not years, rather than the few that will play a few months.

Hare core players have never been relevant, in terms of financially, or influence.

Originally posted by JGMIII

 

Why must you peg someone a loser for wanting to feel good about the time they invested in a character?

because thats how they feel good about themselves. the "oh I could have what that raider has but i have a life unlike him. he probably spends 18 hours a day in game" defense.

I am a hardcore raider I play my game maybe 20-25 hours a week. figure 4 raids a week about 4 hours on those days thats 16 as well as a couple hours here and there just hanging out with guildies doing 6 man dungeon runs (EQ2). I mean however could I have a life playing on that schedule?!?!

LOL

you casual scrubs need to figure how to manage your time better.