I"m tired of ppl saying I should give indi/small developers a chance. Why should I? I'm the kind of guy who never cheers for the underdog and I always shop at the big stores (walmart,etc). Some ppl say bigger companies don't care about customers but companies like AV prove that small/indie devs don't care either.

So I say down with the small budget mmo's and more of the bigger budget mmo's because we all know the more money put into a mmo the better it will be (no I'm not joking). 

Many ppl will disagree with this but their just liberals so ignore their post. It's ok to say bad things about the big bad companies but your not aloud to say bad things to the small weak companies : /

the elite of the devs ae probabbly working on the bid budgets games, but withouth the freedom to innovate

the indie devs could be people withouth experience, maybe even skill, and money, but can innovate

and we need innovation.

if you down a game because lack of graphics or animation you are doing a disservice to gaming and specially to mmorpg

so....

down BAD games, not games that have low production values. If you know the diference... i guest is a dificult one

we need more crazy  and original  games, and these wll come in ugly box's

Originally posted by Cyborg99 

Many ppl will disagree with this but their just liberals so ignore their post. It's ok to say bad things about the big bad companies but your not aloud to say bad things to the small weak companies : /

wait wut

Personally, I don't pay much attention to who is developing the game.  If I like it, I will play it.  Otherwise, I'll move on.  It seems to me that the size of the developer doesn't have a whole lot to do with the quality of the game.  Everyone is capable of delivering a crap product and I have seen gems come from companies of all sizes. 

Who the hell cares?

Originally posted by Teiman

 

the elite of the devs ae probabbly working on the bid budgets games, but withouth the freedom to innovate

the indie devs could be people withouth experience, maybe even skill, and money, but can innovate

and we need innovation.

if you down a game because lack of graphics or animation you are doing a disservice to gaming and specially to mmorpg

so....

down BAD games, not games that have low production values. If you know the diference... i guest is a dificult one

 

we need more crazy  and original  games, and these wll come in ugly box's

 

 

 

Freedom to innovate? Big companies hire the most qualified devs with expirience while small/indie companies get stuck with the bottom of the barrel. Also to some ppl (like myself) graphics are a huge factor in games because I spend alot of money on updating my pc, so don't tell me what factors I should condsider.

Originally posted by Cyborg99

I"m tired of ppl saying I should give indi/small developers a chance. Why should I? I'm the kind of guy who never cheers for the underdog and I always shop at the big stores (walmart,etc). Some ppl say bigger companies don't care about customers but companies like AV prove that small/indie devs don't care either.

So I say down with the small budget mmo's and more of the bigger budget mmo's because we all no the more money put into a mmo the better it will be (no I'm not joking).  Many ppl will disagree with this but their just liberals so ignore their post.

Kudos, best argument ever!

Why didn't I ever think of that, tell people (not ppl) to simply ignore every post that is against mine. That opens a whole new world, it's such a great tactic. Just ignore it if someone opposes you. American citizens probably should have ignored the bombing of Pearl Harbor, I mean, they're (not their) just Communists, so just ignore their big booms.

I know (not no) that we all have different opinions, but yours, is wrong (at points at least).

May I point out where you said "The more money, the better game". That's far from true. Take for example, CounterStrike, which had little/no budget and is ages better than the steaming pile that the general populous calls Halo 3. It's not so much the budget as the skill of the artists. The same applies to movies, as I have seen many fanfilms with a budget of 80-500 dollars that trump Hollywood Blockbusters with budgets in the millions of dollars.

I like to shop at the big stores too, they tend to have more in stock and it's a bit cheaper, I don't really see what that has to do with Indie developers though...

Please, if you want to be taken seriously, learn to spell correctly first of all, and don't say "People will disagree, but I don't like them, ignore them".

Thank you,

 - Eric

EDIT: About 4 posts before I posted mine, wanted to touch on them. Mostly then one saying that Indie developers get the bottom of the barrel developers. I hate to use to profane language but that is the dumbest shit I have heard in a long time. Are you trying to tell me that these great god-like developers just started in a big studio? No. They had to make quality work before they were hired. And if this, http://www.moddb.com/mods/angels-fall-first-planetstorm , http://www.moddb.com/mods/day-of-defeat , http://www.moddb.com/mods/team-fortress-classic , http://www.moddb.com/mods/counter-strike is bottom of the barrel big developers haven't even scratched anything good (and yes, 3 of those now have sequels that are highly acclaimed and some of the most played online games. The other one is still in a young beta stage, and is being said to be one of the best UTIII mods ever made). I guess I could have also linked you to Operation Peacekeeper 1 and 2, which has more players than many commercial games. Or maybe Forgotten Hope 1 and 2, which hosts about 600 players at any given time. I guess Project Reality could have worked too, a game that has been featured in about 25 different print magazines, about half of those being at least one full page, I believe 5 were two page spreads. There's also Zeno Clash, made by Indie developers.

And those highly skilled fancy-dancy programmers, craft what the big company wants them to craft and has it done when they want and it better be how they want it. Think of them as veteran worked at a car factory. They may be skilled, but it doesn't mean they are allowed to go out and make what they want.

Originally posted by nickelpat

Originally posted by Cyborg99

I"m tired of ppl saying I should give indi/small developers a chance. Why should I? I'm the kind of guy who never cheers for the underdog and I always shop at the big stores (walmart,etc). Some ppl say bigger companies don't care about customers but companies like AV prove that small/indie devs don't care either.

So I say down with the small budget mmo's and more of the bigger budget mmo's because we all no the more money put into a mmo the better it will be (no I'm not joking).  Many ppl will disagree with this but their just liberals so ignore their post.

 

Kudos, best argument ever!

Why didn't I ever think of that, tell people (not ppl) to simply ignore every post that is against mine. That opens a whole new world, it's such a great tactic. Just ignore it if someone opposes you. American citizens probably should have ignored the bombing of Pearl Harbor, I mean, they're (not their) just Communists, so just ignore their big booms.

I know (not no) that we all have different opinions, but yours, is wrong (at points at least).

May I point out where you said "The more money, the better game". That's far from true. Take for example, CounterStrike, which had little/no budget and is ages better than the steaming pile that the general populous calls Halo 3. It's not so much the budget as the skill of the artists. The same applies to movies, as I have seen many fanfilms with a budget of 80-500 dollars that trump Hollywood Blockbusters with budgets in the millions of dollars.

I like to shop at the big stores too, they tend to have more in stock and it's a bit cheaper, I don't really see what that has to do with Indie developers though...

Please, if you want to be taken seriously, learn to spell correctly first of all, and don't say "People will disagree, but I don't like them, ignore them".

 

Thank you,

 

 

 - Eric

Wtf your post doesn't make sense? So your butthurt over the war or something and some stuff about u being a cry baby or something. Also I can type ppl all I want because you can't stop me .

Originally posted by Cyborg99

Many ppl will disagree with this but their just liberals so ignore their post.

XD

Man, that is bordering on sig worthy material. Funny stuff...

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by Cyborg99

Many ppl will disagree with this but their just liberals so ignore their post.

 

XD

Man, that is bordering on sig worthy material. Funny stuff...

Thanks feel free to use it and spread the word that liberals are the anti-Christ.

Originally posted by Cyborg99

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by Cyborg99

Many ppl will disagree with this but their just liberals so ignore their post.

 

XD

Man, that is bordering on sig worthy material. Funny stuff...

 

Thanks feel free to use it and spread the word that liberals are the anti-Christ.

this is sad.... i can't tell if you're serious, or the most epic troll ever.

Originally posted by Cyborg99

Originally posted by nickelpat

Originally posted by Cyborg99

I"m tired of ppl saying I should give indi/small developers a chance. Why should I? I'm the kind of guy who never cheers for the underdog and I always shop at the big stores (walmart,etc). Some ppl say bigger companies don't care about customers but companies like AV prove that small/indie devs don't care either.

So I say down with the small budget mmo's and more of the bigger budget mmo's because we all no the more money put into a mmo the better it will be (no I'm not joking).  Many ppl will disagree with this but their just liberals so ignore their post.

 

Kudos, best argument ever!

Why didn't I ever think of that, tell people (not ppl) to simply ignore every post that is against mine. That opens a whole new world, it's such a great tactic. Just ignore it if someone opposes you. American citizens probably should have ignored the bombing of Pearl Harbor, I mean, they're (not their) just Communists, so just ignore their big booms.

I know (not no) that we all have different opinions, but yours, is wrong (at points at least).

May I point out where you said "The more money, the better game". That's far from true. Take for example, CounterStrike, which had little/no budget and is ages better than the steaming pile that the general populous calls Halo 3. It's not so much the budget as the skill of the artists. The same applies to movies, as I have seen many fanfilms with a budget of 80-500 dollars that trump Hollywood Blockbusters with budgets in the millions of dollars.

I like to shop at the big stores too, they tend to have more in stock and it's a bit cheaper, I don't really see what that has to do with Indie developers though...

Please, if you want to be taken seriously, learn to spell correctly first of all, and don't say "People will disagree, but I don't like them, ignore them".

 

Thank you,

 

 

 - Eric

 

Wtf your post doesn't make sense? So your butthurt over the war or something and some stuff about u being a cry baby or something. Also I can type ppl all I want because you can't stop me .

It makes perfect sense, just try reading more than two words. It really does help, believe me, I've tried it ;)

Expect excellence, accept nothing less. Nothing else matters.

Win, OP troll is win, for making you all get worked up.

Originally posted by Cyborg99

 

Freedom to innovate? Big companies hire the most qualified devs with expirience while small/indie companies get stuck with the bottom of the barrel. Also to some ppl (like myself) graphics are a huge factor in games because I spend alot of money on updating my pc, so don't tell me what factors I should condsider.

the boss is probably people that are not gammers, and just want to "repeat" the sucess of wow making a wow clone.  Is like people tryiing again and again to clone Pacman and Tetris forever, never triing to make something else. EVen if these guys are good, the result will be another wow, and we have more than enough of these. 

While I agree that this is a nice troll thread, I also have to agree with the original sentiment.

I have never understood the "support indies because they're indies" lobbyists. If they have good, innovative or creative ideas then sure I will support them. If they deliver decent products I will support them.

However, defending them just because they are indie when they deliver steaming piles of junk is baffling to me.

I mean come on, I'll support that local Mexican indy restaurant over Taco Bell...so long as the food is at least as good...but if they serve bad food, have terrible waiters and overcharge...I'm gone...I don't keep going back and defending them.

This seems like a silly thread, but I'll bite. 

First, let's try to remember that most major companies start off as small developers.  Greatness isn't thrust upon them -- they earn it through innovation, hard work, and vision.  To ignore today's small developers is to ignore tomorrow's major players in the market.

Second, a profitable company does not automatically equal a good MMO.  You can throw money at a game all day long, but in the end, if you don't have the talent or the drive to make a game better in a significant way, it's not going to happen.  A great example of this is Vanguard.  SOE is a huge company with lots of resources -- Vanguard is their MMO and it's on life support at best.  Star Wars Galaxies is another example.  How many thousands of players have clamored for a pre-CU server?  Common sense would tell you that it would be an instant hit in the MMO community.  Does SOE listen?  Nope.  SOE is just one example of a large MMO company that means nothing in terms of being able to produce a quality product. 

Finally, the MMO market is broad enough to accomodate the little guys and the big guys at the same time.  It's not like RL where WalMart moves in and everything else shuts down.  Even with WoW gobbling up a huge chunk of the market, there are dozens or more little companies out there that are doing more than just surviving -- they're profitable.  The market is far from saturation.

Anywho, that's my response.  It's just an opinion, so feel free to disagree.

Originally posted by ericbelser

While I agree that this is a nice troll thread, I also have to agree with the original sentiment.

I have never understood the "support indies because they're indies" lobbyists. If they have good, innovative or creative ideas then sure I will support them. If they deliver decent products I will support them.

However, defending them just because they are indie when they deliver steaming piles of junk is baffling to me.

I agree here. Bad games are bad games, and deserve to be ignored/hated.   I hope people see my point. Poor production values don't make a game bad. Something like animations, sounds,  voices...  you need truckloads of money for these, and don't make the game more fun, but make the game more expensive. I think most people are "tricked" by bad games with great production values, and movies... and books...  

Actually, if we have learned anything, making a good, fun, successful MMORPG is hard work, and few companies in the past 5 years has really pulled it off well, regardless of how much money they spent.

Even the big names like WAR, AOC, VG and others were released as bug riddled, incomplete messes, which certainly any small indie developer managed to equal.

Big money does not equal good games.... wish it did but usually all it guarentees is no risk taking and rehashes of has already worked in the past.  Forget any thought of innovation.

But I agree, all developers have to be held to a higher quality standard at release than we've been receiving in the past few years.

Originally posted by Teiman

Originally posted by Cyborg99

 

Freedom to innovate? Big companies hire the most qualified devs with expirience while small/indie companies get stuck with the bottom of the barrel. Also to some ppl (like myself) graphics are a huge factor in games because I spend alot of money on updating my pc, so don't tell me what factors I should condsider.

 

the boss is probably people that are not gammers, and just want to "repeat" the sucess of wow making a wow clone.  Is like people tryiing again and again to clone Pacman and Tetris forever, never triing to make something else. EVen if these guys are good, the result will be another wow, and we have more than enough of these. 

Always this WOW hate.

Yes please give us more WOW's i would be so happy if we had 3-4 more games with those numbers of customers.

The more success this (MMO) industry has the more we can expect to see people putting money into developing games.

Sure we will get ton's of bad clone games.. and most will suck.. so what? Never have seen a game company that could force me to buy a game yet:)

The sad truth the folks that say they hate WOW just wont except is simple..take away the Blizzard name and the warcraft IP and they STILL would have one of the best games around. 

Easy on the systems, easy to get into and have FUN with, lots of things to do.  You know what the next big game is going to be? A game that easy on systems, easy to get into and have FUN with, and have lots of things to do in  it:P

Originally posted by DarLorkar

Originally posted by Teiman

Originally posted by Cyborg99

 

Freedom to innovate? Big companies hire the most qualified devs with expirience while small/indie companies get stuck with the bottom of the barrel. Also to some ppl (like myself) graphics are a huge factor in games because I spend alot of money on updating my pc, so don't tell me what factors I should condsider.

 

the boss is probably people that are not gammers, and just want to "repeat" the sucess of wow making a wow clone.  Is like people tryiing again and again to clone Pacman and Tetris forever, never triing to make something else. EVen if these guys are good, the result will be another wow, and we have more than enough of these. 

Always this WOW hate.

Yes. I hate WoW.

The way I hate McDonalds.   I  fail to see a burger from McDonalds as food.  Is popular, and McDonalds make billions.  People love it.    The burger itself... is food that gray thing? It don't think is meat.    

I probablly work with different standards as you. 

I tried the WoW on a trial, 2 times, and quitted before teh 15 days. I was boring, a too simple game...  I was with the feeling that the game was uncomplete, or something, because the combat was that boring. Nothing to do, from second zero.  I fail to see how people can think that game is fun. Maybe for people that has never played a RPG before?

But he... is me.  McDonalds make great food, and WoW is the awesome. I am probably wrong.

Guys, just because you can fail at making a good game with big money does not, in reverse, tell us that money does not matter. Frankly, looking at the smaller games released during the last years, one thing shows up a lot: Lack of content. However, lack of content is usually a matter of man-hours, which ultimately is about money.

I dont think its possible to make a good large MMORPG without a ton of money. Due to the fickle playerbase and expectations of consuming content at a quick pace, you need a LOT of content to keep people playing beyond the first 8 weeks or so. And that content doesnt come for free.

Alternative ways of creating content aside (sandbox elements, player-created content), mainstream MMOs (read: Theme-Park MMOs) need a huge pile of just standard content stuff. Thats not about innovation, its about meat on the bones of innovation, and that meat is the not-very-glorious work of getting a lot of guided, easy, fast-food content into the game.

Originally posted by Cyborg99
[...]

Many ppl will disagree with this but their just liberals so ignore their post.

[...]

That part made the troll a bit too obvious.

Originally posted by Vahrn

Originally posted by Cyborg99
[...]

Many ppl will disagree with this but their just liberals so ignore their post.

[...]

 

That part made the troll a bit too obvious.

Originally posted by Cyborg99

I"m tired of ppl saying I should give indi/small developers a chance. Why should I? I'm the kind of guy who never cheers for the underdog and I always shop at the big stores (walmart,etc). Some ppl say bigger companies don't care about customers but companies like AV prove that small/indie devs don't care either.

So I say down with the small budget mmo's and more of the bigger budget mmo's because we all know the more money put into a mmo the better it will be (no I'm not joking). 

Many ppl will disagree with this but their just liberals so ignore their post. It's ok to say bad things about the big bad companies but your not aloud to say bad things to the small weak companies : /

This poster has the attitude that everybody should fear.  I'll go so far as to say that he is the cancer that is destroying our society.  Shopping at "big stores" is inherently not evil in anyway, but, when you do more research and receive more data, you discover those big stores drive out the small mom and pap companies which initially allows the business roots to form in communities.

Also not supporting indie/small mmo developers eventually leads to only the big, multibillion dollar companies able to be profitable.  This is a bad thing because it encourages monopolies which eventually lead to less and less to choose from for the consumer.  Also, if said big company puts out a bad product, he knows it will sell nonethless and the consumers will have no other choice but to buy it because they have no other option.  Microsoft is a perfect example of this process. 

Support your local mom and pap stores and support the little guy!

Edit: I just realized OP is playing EVE which just further proves that he has no idea what he is talking about since EVE was created by an indie company.

Originally posted by star

Originally posted by Cyborg99 

Many ppl will disagree with this but their just liberals so ignore their post. It's ok to say bad things about the big bad companies but your not aloud to say bad things to the small weak companies : /

wait wut

I think he is saying he supported Bush...

Must be nice to be one of the 20% of the US population who thinks the world is flat, health care should be earned, and possum road kill is the best tasting dish ever served out of a big black kettle.

I say if the game sucks, it flat out sucks. If it is a good game, more power to them. Whether the game company dumps a load of money into it or not isn't really relevant. A game company either helps the economy by dumping money into it or making something that works, or they go bankrupt after helping the economy because their game was crap.

WoW would have worked if Blizzard had invested $25.03 in it rather then billions. The graphics sure as hell didn't take a lot of time to do, and it isn't like they re-created the UI or reinvented the wheel to make the game. In fact I'd say they wasted a whole lot of money to make the game.