Originally posted by Valeran

Originally posted by Dana

Originally posted by Valeran

Throwing out the rulebook has been tried...SOE tried it with SWG:NGE and look what it did to their reputation and subscription numbers. 

Moral is if you throw out the rulebook make sure it is with a new MMO and not one already running with a core subscription base.

Yeah, I was talking about new games. I think everyone has learned their lesson from SWG.

 

Except SOE. ;)

...have they done it since? 

Smed has flat out apologized for NGE on a few occasions.

So yeah, if anything, I'd say especially SOE.

Originally posted by Troneas

Originally posted by Dana

Originally posted by Valeran

Throwing out the rulebook has been tried...SOE tried it with SWG:NGE and look what it did to their reputation and subscription numbers. 

Moral is if you throw out the rulebook make sure it is with a new MMO and not one already running with a core subscription base.

Yeah, I was talking about new games. I think everyone has learned their lesson from SWG.

 

actually, in my opinion, soe threw out the rulebook when they built swg, because swg had many new and innovative ideas. it went off to a promising start, but failing to reach SOE's desired playerbase numbers (reasons being the hologrind, lack of polish, buggs, etc. etc.) they picked up the WoW's rulebook again to create the NGE - and failed miserably.

I think SWG is a perfect example of what I was saying earlier and what I interpret Elikal as saying.. You can't just throw out all the rules and start from scratch... SWG tried to be innovative which is great but in doing so they also completely ignored what already worked... (It didn't take long for me to get sick of hunting donkeys and birds surrounding twig piles)

Some ideas were great, but the game in its entirety was terrible.. They forgot to use the concepts that people liked in an MMO..

If a game was developed now that completely ignored everything that worked in MMO's, all the years of development and trial and error, they stand no chance of having the same kind of polish that is expected in our games now. They will be doomed to fail.

Rather taking one or two elements they can improve, then using the wisdom of past developers to make a reliable fun game..
I wont all happen with one game... but rather over time elements will become the norm... you know this mmo is incorporating a sneak system like oblivion, that game is taking elements of a fps to make combat more exciting, another adding riddles and puzzles to dungeon crawls.. Games launching in the traditional fashion and then on the first expansion they add racing or incorporate some other style game into the world... rather than just more of the same... Its when new ideas are added to a polished product will they be inventive... If they try to do everything all they will have is a pile of junk that no one will play and the innovative ideas they had wont get carried on to become the norm of future games..
 

Originally posted by Dana

Originally posted by Valeran

Originally posted by Dana

Originally posted by Valeran

Throwing out the rulebook has been tried...SOE tried it with SWG:NGE and look what it did to their reputation and subscription numbers. 

Moral is if you throw out the rulebook make sure it is with a new MMO and not one already running with a core subscription base.

Yeah, I was talking about new games. I think everyone has learned their lesson from SWG.

 

Except SOE. ;)

 

...have they done it since? 

Smed has flat out apologized for NGE on a few occasions.

So yeah, if anything, I'd say especially SOE.

Another NGE specifically? No. Also, I don't think I have ever read where Smed has given an apology for changing the game as drastically as they did. He may have intimated some dismay for the NGE not working out like he hoped, but as for a genuine apology, I haven't heard/read one. Not that I expect him to care, mind you.

That said, SOE still exhibits that same "we know better than you what you find fun" attitude that was highlighted with the NGE. You can see it on their forums. You can see it in their actions.

I'm of the opinion they are irrelevant in the MMO design space now. I know you guys (MMORPG.com) probably can't do this without hurting yourselves, but it would be interesting to see a poll on that, even better if it was conducted by multiple MMO sites like this, asking the core of the MMO hobby, those that visit such sites regularly, if they would ever play a new SOE game and how much do they trust SOE. Let those two polls run for a month and then look at it.

They are on shaky ground, I think, and as such I certainly don't see them being a company to throw out the rulebook on any new project. No, they are trying to rebuild credibiity with gamers in the MMO space and will not take very many, if any, leaps of faith.

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Another NGE specifically? No. Also, I don't think I have ever read where Smed has given an apology for changing the game as drastically as they did. He may have intimated some dismay for the NGE not working out like he hoped, but as for a genuine apology, I haven't heard/read one. Not that I expect him to care, mind you.

That said, SOE still exhibits that same "we know better than you what you find fun" attitude that was highlighted with the NGE. You can see it on their forums. You can see it in their actions.

I'm of the opinion they are irrelevant in the MMO design space now. I know you guys (MMORPG.com) probably can't do this without hurting yourselves, but it would be interesting to see a poll on that, even better if it was conducted by multiple MMO sites like this, asking the core of the MMO hobby, those that visit such sites regularly, if they would ever play a new SOE game and how much do they trust SOE. Let those two polls run for a month and then look at it.

They are on shaky ground, I think, and as such I certainly don't see them being a company to throw out the rulebook on any new project. No, they are trying to rebuild credibiity with gamers in the MMO space and will not take very many, if any, leaps of faith.

No, he have not. But this is really of topic, this thread is about that all new games shouldn't use the same D&D cloned system, not tha SWG had a different system and then changed it for the same old.

Still, the way many paople go around and misses the old SWG system do tells us that there is room for games with different mechanics, even if SWG was buggy it had a rather good playerbase for its time and if they hadn't messed it up it could have a rather big sub number still.

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

I know you guys (MMORPG.com) probably can't do this without hurting yourselves, but it would be interesting to see a poll on that, even better if it was conducted by multiple MMO sites like this, asking the core of the MMO hobby, those that visit such sites regularly, if they would ever play a new SOE game and how much do they trust SOE. Let those two polls run for a month and then look at it.

Polling among the opinionated will certainly give a bad result for SOE. But if you managed to make every MMOG player vote, I think you'd find numbers long this line:

1% would never play a SEO game again, and don't trust SOE

3% would happily play a SOE game again, and trust SOE

96% have no idea why the question is being asked, or simply don't care due to being tired of the first 1% harping on the matter

I would be in the 96%. ;-)

Edit: now, on the actual topic... An interesting article, but I don't think the next super hit of MMOGs will be anything but a new traditional WoW-style game - or we have to wait a long time for that new super hit. Hopefully there will be very successful MMOGs that are non-traditional, and plenty of them, but it takes a lot of resources to develop and run an MMOG. Non-traditional MMOGs will be low(er) budget, and a low budget MMOG getting WoW numbers will suffer from its own success as it can't meet the demands. Hopefully they can go the route of Eve Online; be different, launch well, stay healthy, and grow steadily over time.

Originally posted by nate1980

Originally posted by cybervic

 Personally, I don't think WoW brought all that much "polish" to the genre. When WoW first came out it wasn't all that polished. It took over a year for it to get to the level of polish that is currently understood as the "bar" of polish in the industry. As a veteran MMO player who's been playing MMO's since UO Beta 2, I can difinitively say that the biggest thing WoW brought to the genre was that they dumbed down the genre and made it easy to play for the average American. On top of that they were the first MMO to SERIOUSLY go global. Those two combined turned them into a cutlural phenomenon.

I don't feel there's anything wrong with the genre as a whole right now. I don't think the genre needs to "innovate" other than it needs more good games that have different stories. I don't think there's anything wrong with WoW or what it did to the genre in terms of the "polish" and the amount of bar raising it did for the industry. In fact I am greatful to what WoW did in terms of raising that bar. What I have a problem with is the general dumbing down of the genre to support a wider and wider audience, making the MMO gaming experience ADHD and for kids who don't know what the word comittment is about.

I'd love a game that is not designed for the masses. A game that is not DUMBED down for the average stupid casual gamer. I want a game that's modern, with modern graphics, modern polish, but has the old school pre-wow expectation that if you were a complete and total moron (like 70% of MMO players are today), that you shouldn't be playing this game.

 

The problem is that like others have said before in this thread, investors and publishers want a product that is addictive, attractive, and accessible to a VERY wide audience because the profit margins for an MMO get pretty insane the larger the subscription base becomes. Investors and publishers don't want a game that one of the requirements are "Cannot solo past level 25" or "Must require raiding past level 50" or "Requires extensive involvement in guild for advancement" or oooooh this is a big one "Experience loss upon death or some other control mechanism to ensure high level players know the game well". If an MMO has too small of an audience you might as well publish a good console RPG like what Bathesda has done for over a decade.

So in summary, what is ironic and sad about all of this is that while the MMO industry has become mainstream, it has destroyed what the veteran MMO community loved most about the genre and as long as the current "formula" works of making games dumb and accessible, than the likelyhood of us EVER seeing a game like I want and many want becomes smaller and smaller every day.

 

So much talk about the genre being dumbed down by WoW, and all I start to hear when I see the word dumbed down is "blah blah blah." People say WoW dumbed down the genre, and I say whatever. There's nothing to prove that WoW dumbed down the genre and I've played MMO's several years by the time WoW came out. You still have lots of people asking questions on how to do this or that and you still have hundreds of guides on how to do this or that in WoW. If the game was so easy a caveman can do it, there'd be no need for guides. There just wouldn't be a market for them, because it'd take more time and money to find a guide than to just play the game.

Nothing against  WoW or its fans, but stop trying to protect a game that has taken the MMORPG industry by storm and watered it down to the point where 85% of the prospective gamers/players are able to plug right in and get it without much research or preparation.  WoW is the McDonald's of the MMORPG industry.  It's not the gourmet-esque game of the industry at all... not by a long shot.  WoW services everyone from the 12 year old kid that parents left to be baby-sat by the 'puter/game to the 40+ year old.  Before the WoW fans get up in arms about these comments... realize they aren't insults. 

WoW has been such a dramatic success because it takes the learning curve out of the first 50'ish levels of the game and doesn't become complex at all until you do 1 of 3 things: 

1) Arenas:  If you want to particpate in arena's, you must research what classes and/or templates for said classes are successful.  FotM + not being some face-rolling button-mashing simpleton = Arena wins.   The other forms of PvP don't matter, tbh... they just equate to honor, and honor doesn't buy much these days ingame.

2)  Raiding"  If you want to pariticpate in raids, you must research what role your class will be asked to do:  dps, healing, tanking, or CC/debuff in raids and perhaps which 4 buttons to mash via the most effective rotation/timing.  Okay, the first group of people that make it through a boss in a RAID may have had some skill going for them, outside of them... the rest just follow the cookie-cutter template they leave behind, to include WMO's and incredibly well documented RAID strat's. 

3)  Making gold.  If you want to make gold, it may take some thought as to how to properly manipulate the AH to your advantage, otherwise you'll just do daily quests like the rest of the people do.  25 daily quests x 10+ gold per quest = a nice reward of 1,000 gold by weeks end, and that's if you are a slacker.

What other games have done better or do anything better than WoW?  I have ZERO examples.  And thus, the purpose of the article.  THROW OUT THE BOOK and/or the RECORD BOOK!  WoW is getting old or has gotten old for a lot of us.  We just continue to play because of the fact that there are few alternatives... it's not because WoW is so amazing or great.

Do something bloody different already!  Reinvent the whole damned genre and industry.  That's what it's going to take.  That's what the article is about!

There are many other systems that have components that are 'more complex' than WoW.   WoW simply made 'simplicity' a commodity.  Again, serve up an MMO game with the most common components and make it simple enough that ANYONE can get into 90% of the games content. 

Again, I've played WoW for years.  I got so bored with WoW that I went the way of the multi-boxer just to find any type of challenge.

Seriously, I'm waiting for the industry to create something new... something better.  WoW is simply the sum of all of the games that had come before it, served in a fashion that would address the majority of the gamers out there.  The other 15% of us want something better, something different, something fresh, and something new.

Good post BlackWatch

I still think the problem, why there aren't any new and original games, is becouse investors think it's oftenly too much money, and too dared to do so, as for the bigger companies, they either don't care about the people, as long as the money just comes flowing in, and they also don't want to give out money on something that 'might' not work.

Originally posted by Kamica

Good post BlackWatch

I still think the problem, why there aren't any new and original games, is becouse investors think it's oftenly too much money, and too dared to do so, as for the bigger companies, they either don't care about the people, as long as the money just comes flowing in, and they also don't want to give out money on something that 'might' not work.

Definitely a good point. Investors think money, or they wouldn't have money to invest in the first place. I think the more money they can invest the less risk they're prone to taking, as few got rich on gambling.

When WoW became (or was about to become) the huge success it is, big investors laid their eyes on the business, looking to get a piece of the pie. And others already in the development cycle pushed things out to grab players before WoW took them all. Most of them have seen if not failure then at least a lack of expected (mega-)success. Examples are EQII (launching just before WoW), Vanguard, D&DO, PotBS, AoC, Tabula Rasa, and WAR.

However, in the same time we've seen that other developers and publishers have managed to carve themselves a place in the market either from launch or from building over a long time, from big and traditional MMOG-style titles like LotRO to small and very different titles like Eve Online. Micro-transaction MMOGs are popping up all the time, relatively cheap and quick to develop and low maintenance. Guild Wars appears to be doing quite well based on only box sales.

This is very valuable experience for the business. There are still investments made, and to be made, and there is return to get on the money spent. But it needs to be done right. Both on the development side, and on the business side. WoW, LotRO and Eve did it. Most others either don't distinguish themselves enough from WoW (which leads us back to this article - be different!), or hype the game so much they can't possibly deliver on the expectations when compared to the polished behemoth that is WoW.

The only way you can reinvent this genre, as I see it. Is based on technology. There is nothing left for anyone to change about the mmo. You create something either a character or a machine and you play with it, get it to grow. Which is either trough killing, questing or gathering (may as well call it grinding). The only thing companiesdo to change this, is adding a pretty layer over the game to make it look attractive. So to speak.

If you really want to play something new you will have to start with reinventing the "way" we play games. Sure there are some idea's and certain technologies available but non of them are applicable for mass use(Just being expencive so hardly anyone can afford them.)

And yes, there are already certain games that apply certain physics within their game, like manually avoiding attacks and blocking, no offence but clicking buttons at specific times is just a pain in the ass, or running like an idiot around a monster hoping you'd avoid his attacks just feels silly(yes im looking at you spellborn!)

So I guess my conclusion would be, that it still requires some time before anyone can actually think of reinventing the genre and we as players will be stuck with this feeling of déjà vu for a little while longer :)

Originally posted by Dana

Originally posted by Valeran

Originally posted by Dana

Originally posted by Valeran

Throwing out the rulebook has been tried...SOE tried it with SWG:NGE and look what it did to their reputation and subscription numbers. 

Moral is if you throw out the rulebook make sure it is with a new MMO and not one already running with a core subscription base.

Yeah, I was talking about new games. I think everyone has learned their lesson from SWG.

 

Except SOE. ;)

 

...have they done it since? 

Smed has flat out apologized for NGE on a few occasions.

So yeah, if anything, I'd say especially SOE.

Smed never apologized for the NGE...he apologized for how they communicated it.  Big difference wouldn't you say? 

But this thread is not about SOE and their bumbling of SWG.  I only used them as an example of fail. 

Persistent World...If developers keep that as a base rule even if throwing out the rulebook then many would be happy.  Add to the games...do not subtract.

There are so many interesting directions you can take MMO's that it is extremely sad to see the lack of innovation coming from the industry.  I'm not in the industry but was curious how new ideas are brought up so I asked the head of a small mmo developer what it took to pitch a concept for a game. He said work for 5-10 years and  if you're lucky  you'll get into the room where these things are decided.

Here's my idea for a sci-fi setting: A waterworld where the sentient races have not developed flight technology yet but have sophisticated underwater craft that they employee in their struggle for the planets resources.  This would allow for a 3 dimensional combat with both a defined floor and ceiling.

I agree completely. Something needs to be done.  I do hope it is soon.

One of the modern ideas of what MMO's are, that I firmly believe needs to go, is the whole idea of "change."  It makes development sloppy from day 1.  Too too many games are released in an unfinished state.  I know this has alot to do with finances and such, but it just seems to be that whole idea of "we'll fix it later" causes more havoc than anything.  What goes along with that mentality is the idea that MMOs "evolve" over time.    What's wrong with releasing a complete product from day 1?  You'd think that with properly focused development team that  not only has a plan, but knows where and what it's doing and where it's going, will be able to deliver on such an elusive concept.  Yes, MMOs are complex beasts, but I have yet to hear a valid reason why these games are treated as they are.  Excuses are given, and we gamers have grown so complacent, that we just accept it as the way things are.  That's just plain unacceptable, and the leading cause for the MMO market to be inundated with worthless games.

Here's a what if

What if Blizzard is not making a "clone" of WOW but looking to develope a game that departs from these tried and true concepts.  They proved taking formally used concepts, simplifying and polishing them, having them run on the most base computer in the market, coupled with thier IP and  targeted for demographic (everyone!) is a big win.  They have funds to make mistakes now.

Why not make thier next MMO a World Simulator to stair step thier customers to a more complex experiance?  They can afford the loss if its total washout.  This would also cement their total hold on this market.  There is the other direction, of course, in the F2P market of kid friendly family games like Freerealm, Runescape with thier huge numbers.

My point is Blizzard is targeting a new segment of the market and who will stop this giant?  Currently the market is full of companies but it could soon be completely dominated by just the one.  And Blizzard is reaching for seconds.

Obviously I didn't read all the replies, but only a page worth before this post...

Here's where I see a problem...

Publisher X goes to investor Y and makes his pitch for a game....

investor Y asks "is it going to make me money like Wow?"

Publisher X says "well, we want to try a whole new approach"

investor Y says " nah, they make all the money doing it that way."

publisher X says "ok, we'll try and emulate wow, now can we have your money?"

investor Y says "only if you do it like they did it."

....2 years go by...

investor Y says "damn, it's been TWO years, I want my damn money to start coming back in!"

publisher X says " but these games take 5 years to publish! This game isn't even nearly ready!"

investor Y says, "ME WANT MONEY!  release it now damnit!"

publisher X says "it's not ready! we need more time and more money!"

investor Y says "get it on the shelves or I'm pulling out!"

....and so another title POOPS out before it's ready.

When will the industry realize that this is just not going to work anymore?

Look, I know everyone here has taboo flags for mentioning SWG, but damnit, has ANY game come close to being that original ever?  Koster did it right, Sony pooped it out before the kinks were out..and blamed the wrong ppl.  Then some idiots decided to make it like wow...see above dumb investor quotes.

Take second life...  SLOW SLOW SLOW growth...but STEADY STEADY STEADY growth, no?  Funny I don't see news articles on a monthly basis about other online environments, but SL is in the news weekly and still growing.... I laugh how everyone says "that's dead, they just don't know it yet...."   heard that 3 years ago.  Today it's more than doubled since then too.

Take EVE... complicated learning curve....("it's too much reading, too hard to learn, people get bored" -quote from our beloved nancy mcintyre)  Are they losing subs?  or are they gaining...slowly but surely ?

The signs have been so clear all along to us gamers of what makes a game of longevity, but the ppl that hold all the money have short sighted vision it seems.

The gaming industry doesn't need new gaming ideas...they're all around us....  The gaming industry needs new MONEY sources....the old ones are crabby and suck now.  I say let them eat WoW, and let's move on to a new watering hole.

Essentially it seems you're saying the next big thing - will be something different. Thats not radical thinking, its the bleedin obvious. 

Originally posted by Soba

 I asked the head of a small mmo developer what it took to pitch a concept for a game. He said work for 5-10 years and  if you're lucky  you'll get into the room where these things are decided.

The big problem is that the concepts of fun and boardrooms absolutely do not mix.

Trying to set the design of a game and THEN start building it is a recipe for disaster.  Nevertheless, that recipe is repeated hundreds of times every year.

The best games originate with a handful of programmers screwing around with game engine prototypes until they come up with something that "clicks," and then calling in the artists, writers and other content creators.  The problem is that the vast majority of the prototyping efforts won't end up being used in an actual game, so no company wants to give its employees that much leeway - since it's really hard to tell whether they're screwing around in a way that's productive, or just screwing around.

So what most companies do is have their bigwigs establish what they think will be a fun game, and then order their drones to spend thousands of man-hours developing artwork, content, etc. around that framework -- and THEN they find out that the basic gameplay isn't very captivating.  So they try to fix it after the fact - by basically "patching it till it's fun."  And, of course, that almost never works. 

Originally posted by Valeran

Originally posted by Dana

Originally posted by Valeran

Originally posted by Dana

Originally posted by Valeran

Throwing out the rulebook has been tried...SOE tried it with SWG:NGE and look what it did to their reputation and subscription numbers. 

Moral is if you throw out the rulebook make sure it is with a new MMO and not one already running with a core subscription base.

Yeah, I was talking about new games. I think everyone has learned their lesson from SWG.

 

Except SOE. ;)

 

...have they done it since? 

Smed has flat out apologized for NGE on a few occasions.

So yeah, if anything, I'd say especially SOE.

 

Smed never apologized for the NGE...he apologized for how they communicated it.  Big difference wouldn't you say? 

But this thread is not about SOE and their bumbling of SWG.  I only used them as an example of fail. 

Persistent World...If developers keep that as a base rule even if throwing out the rulebook then many would be happy.  Add to the games...do not subtract.

 

I am helping derail my own thread, but he most definitely did apologize specifically for the NGE:

Link.

He made those comments in an interview with me (during my time running WarCry). There was no hedging, he was very direct.

Originally posted by Dana

Originally posted by Valeran

Originally posted by Dana

Originally posted by Valeran

Throwing out the rulebook has been tried...SOE tried it with SWG:NGE and look what it did to their reputation and subscription numbers. 

Moral is if you throw out the rulebook make sure it is with a new MMO and not one already running with a core subscription base.

Yeah, I was talking about new games. I think everyone has learned their lesson from SWG.

 

Except SOE. ;)

 

...have they done it since? 

Smed has flat out apologized for NGE on a few occasions.

So yeah, if anything, I'd say especially SOE.

they've changed their business model on some of their existing games by adding RMT to an already premium monthly fee. and whilst they didn't completely NGE vanguard (because the game essentially is the same) they did nerf many of its sandboxy elements to make it more mainstream (ie: follow WoW's rulebook).

Originally posted by Dana

Originally posted by Valeran

Originally posted by Dana

Originally posted by Valeran

Originally posted by Dana

Originally posted by Valeran

Throwing out the rulebook has been tried...SOE tried it with SWG:NGE and look what it did to their reputation and subscription numbers. 

Moral is if you throw out the rulebook make sure it is with a new MMO and not one already running with a core subscription base.

Yeah, I was talking about new games. I think everyone has learned their lesson from SWG.

 

Except SOE. ;)

 

...have they done it since? 

Smed has flat out apologized for NGE on a few occasions.

So yeah, if anything, I'd say especially SOE.

 

Smed never apologized for the NGE...he apologized for how they communicated it.  Big difference wouldn't you say? 

But this thread is not about SOE and their bumbling of SWG.  I only used them as an example of fail. 

Persistent World...If developers keep that as a base rule even if throwing out the rulebook then many would be happy.  Add to the games...do not subtract.

 

 

I am helping derail my own thread, but he most definitely did apologize specifically for the NGE:

Link.

He made those comments in an interview with me (during my time running WarCry). There was no hedging, he was very direct.

He "apologizes" for the mistake they made and then goes on to state that the mistake they made was not bringing the fans into th e mix....that is no apology for the NGE...that is an apology at their poor communication skills.  That is my opinion of it.  I stand by that as they still have not learned their lesson from it. 

Nice article but lets be real here, the developers are here for one purpose only. To make money. They aren't going to go outside there little box because that would result in less sales. They saw what WOW accomplished and then we got a ton of WOW copycat games because they saw how much money could be made. The devs also forgot that before you can make alot money you actually have to make a great game which unfortunately we have not seen great mmos since perhaps the release of WOW or some may even tell you prior to WOW as well. I highly doubt we will see anyone throw out the rulebook anytime soon.

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Nice article but lets be real here, the developers are here for one purpose only. To make money. They aren't going to go outside there little box because that would result in less sales. They saw what WOW accomplished and then we got a ton of WOW copycat games because they saw how much money could be made. The devs also forgot that before you can make alot money you actually have to make a great game which unfortunately we have not seen great mmos since perhaps the release of WOW or some may even tell you prior to WOW as well. I highly doubt we will see anyone throw out the rulebook anytime soon.

Of course they're out to make money. MMOs are a business.

That was kind of the point of the article. Perhaps the best way to make money would be to throw out the rulebook.

Originally posted by Dana

Originally posted by SaintViktor

Nice article but lets be real here, the developers are here for one purpose only. To make money. They aren't going to go outside there little box because that would result in less sales. They saw what WOW accomplished and then we got a ton of WOW copycat games because they saw how much money could be made. The devs also forgot that before you can make alot money you actually have to make a great game which unfortunately we have not seen great mmos since perhaps the release of WOW or some may even tell you prior to WOW as well. I highly doubt we will see anyone throw out the rulebook anytime soon.

 

Of course they're out to make money. MMOs are a business.

That was kind of the point of the article. Perhaps the best way to make money would be to throw out the rulebook.

It would require risk and right now I just don't see any of the current MMO companies throwing capital at out of the box thinking.

Originally posted by BlackWatch

Originally posted by nate1980

Originally posted by cybervic

 Personally, I don't think WoW brought all that much "polish" to the genre. When WoW first came out it wasn't all that polished. It took over a year for it to get to the level of polish that is currently understood as the "bar" of polish in the industry. As a veteran MMO player who's been playing MMO's since UO Beta 2, I can difinitively say that the biggest thing WoW brought to the genre was that they dumbed down the genre and made it easy to play for the average American. On top of that they were the first MMO to SERIOUSLY go global. Those two combined turned them into a cutlural phenomenon.

I don't feel there's anything wrong with the genre as a whole right now. I don't think the genre needs to "innovate" other than it needs more good games that have different stories. I don't think there's anything wrong with WoW or what it did to the genre in terms of the "polish" and the amount of bar raising it did for the industry. In fact I am greatful to what WoW did in terms of raising that bar. What I have a problem with is the general dumbing down of the genre to support a wider and wider audience, making the MMO gaming experience ADHD and for kids who don't know what the word comittment is about.

I'd love a game that is not designed for the masses. A game that is not DUMBED down for the average stupid casual gamer. I want a game that's modern, with modern graphics, modern polish, but has the old school pre-wow expectation that if you were a complete and total moron (like 70% of MMO players are today), that you shouldn't be playing this game.

 

The problem is that like others have said before in this thread, investors and publishers want a product that is addictive, attractive, and accessible to a VERY wide audience because the profit margins for an MMO get pretty insane the larger the subscription base becomes. Investors and publishers don't want a game that one of the requirements are "Cannot solo past level 25" or "Must require raiding past level 50" or "Requires extensive involvement in guild for advancement" or oooooh this is a big one "Experience loss upon death or some other control mechanism to ensure high level players know the game well". If an MMO has too small of an audience you might as well publish a good console RPG like what Bathesda has done for over a decade.

So in summary, what is ironic and sad about all of this is that while the MMO industry has become mainstream, it has destroyed what the veteran MMO community loved most about the genre and as long as the current "formula" works of making games dumb and accessible, than the likelyhood of us EVER seeing a game like I want and many want becomes smaller and smaller every day.

 

So much talk about the genre being dumbed down by WoW, and all I start to hear when I see the word dumbed down is "blah blah blah." People say WoW dumbed down the genre, and I say whatever. There's nothing to prove that WoW dumbed down the genre and I've played MMO's several years by the time WoW came out. You still have lots of people asking questions on how to do this or that and you still have hundreds of guides on how to do this or that in WoW. If the game was so easy a caveman can do it, there'd be no need for guides. There just wouldn't be a market for them, because it'd take more time and money to find a guide than to just play the game.

 

Nothing against  WoW or its fans, but stop trying to protect a game that has taken the MMORPG industry by storm and watered it down to the point where 85% of the prospective gamers/players are able to plug right in and get it without much research or preparation.  WoW is the McDonald's of the MMORPG industry.  It's not the gourmet-esque game of the industry at all... not by a long shot.  WoW services everyone from the 12 year old kid that parents left to be baby-sat by the 'puter/game to the 40+ year old.  Before the WoW fans get up in arms about these comments... realize they aren't insults. 

WoW has been such a dramatic success because it takes the learning curve out of the first 50'ish levels of the game and doesn't become complex at all until you do 1 of 3 things: 

1) Arenas:  If you want to particpate in arena's, you must research what classes and/or templates for said classes are successful.  FotM + not being some face-rolling button-mashing simpleton = Arena wins.   The other forms of PvP don't matter, tbh... they just equate to honor, and honor doesn't buy much these days ingame.

2)  Raiding"  If you want to pariticpate in raids, you must research what role your class will be asked to do:  dps, healing, tanking, or CC/debuff in raids and perhaps which 4 buttons to mash via the most effective rotation/timing.  Okay, the first group of people that make it through a boss in a RAID may have had some skill going for them, outside of them... the rest just follow the cookie-cutter template they leave behind, to include WMO's and incredibly well documented RAID strat's. 

3)  Making gold.  If you want to make gold, it may take some thought as to how to properly manipulate the AH to your advantage, otherwise you'll just do daily quests like the rest of the people do.  25 daily quests x 10+ gold per quest = a nice reward of 1,000 gold by weeks end, and that's if you are a slacker.

What other games have done better or do anything better than WoW?  I have ZERO examples.  And thus, the purpose of the article.  THROW OUT THE BOOK and/or the RECORD BOOK!  WoW is getting old or has gotten old for a lot of us.  We just continue to play because of the fact that there are few alternatives... it's not because WoW is so amazing or great.

Do something bloody different already!  Reinvent the whole damned genre and industry.  That's what it's going to take.  That's what the article is about!

There are many other systems that have components that are 'more complex' than WoW.   WoW simply made 'simplicity' a commodity.  Again, serve up an MMO game with the most common components and make it simple enough that ANYONE can get into 90% of the games content. 

Again, I've played WoW for years.  I got so bored with WoW that I went the way of the multi-boxer just to find any type of challenge.

Seriously, I'm waiting for the industry to create something new... something better.  WoW is simply the sum of all of the games that had come before it, served in a fashion that would address the majority of the gamers out there.  The other 15% of us want something better, something different, something fresh, and something new.

 

Yeah, I'm only responding to the part at the bottom, but it's all relevant in one way or another. The problem, is that the "other 15%" aren't enough to financially sustain a game. And that "other 15%" want the new big thing, now-ish. Not later. If the mmo fans could learn patience, they'd realize that the 12 year olds that we ALL complain about in WoW are getting older every year. Hannah Montana isn't going to be the biggest thing, forever. And eventually, the "kids" who populate games and annoy people, are going to grow up some. Then some of them may decide that they want a deeper experience. So, the market will provide that, or the bloated fan-base will all too quickly disappear.

This is so dead on for me. Almost every game i play i always start to think to myself this is just the same damn thing as before, but new models and eye candy. Nothing new is coming out of the industry it seems, and there always saying "Zomg we has da best combate system ever, Innovating new view on skills!!" It's all bull shit. Just another low budget half assed game pushed out in a hurry to make money.

A huge example is Twelve Sky 2. It is a pure copy of Twelve sky 1 but with a few new added content. All it boils down to is the idiots who keep buying shit from both games lining the pockets of the cooperate money hounds.
 

Whats worse abotu this all is the only honest people who want to make a good game come to two problems, one they wont have the money to have up-to-date materal, two they already have the idea in there head of "What a MMO is".

Developers might want to stop promising what they cannot give at launch, to make sure all the resources go on a stable game at release, and to stop treating gamers like idiots. Age of Conan was a perfect example, having been in the beta and listening to the lies and crap spouted by the devs, and the release, was a joke.

All devs have to do is make a game that is fairly stable on release, to deliver on what they say will be in on release, and to make the game fun to play. Do these three things and you can get a foothold in the market?