Originally posted by JGMIII

Why do we need all of these quests in a MMO telling us exactly where to go and what to kill?

Perhaps it is because developers are catering to the Wana-be hard  core group who need that "extra quest XP."

Stacking 25-50 quests in a log and being lead around a map like a dog is fun?

Yep, got to agree with you there, but that seems to be where the fast leveling is.,

Why do you need that Npc to tell you to walk passed that hill and kill ten wolves? Do you lack the motivation to actually explore over that hill on your own and kill a few wolves?

could go out and do it on your own, have not experienced an NPC walk up and insist I take the quest.

Why must I be told to explore a ruin or deep cave and kill a boss? Why can't we just explore the map with friends discover a ruins or cave and kill the boss on our own?

You can, why do you take the quests?

So much hand holding is needed in todays MMOs, Noone wants to just explore, group up and take shit down.

Must be the company your with. We do it all the time.

Why must we follow a lame story set on rails? Do you lack the imagination to create your own adventures and Rp with a group of friends?

?? Is that NPC approaching you ??

Why do we need all of these stupid collection quests? can we not just go find a nice camp and kill mobs and vendor the stuff we loot? is it not the same thing?

Find some new playmates.

It seems people need Quests to lead them, they are incapable of doing anything on their own.

Yep, change teammates.

The MMOs I played Gave us these epic sized gameworlds, filled it with challenging mobs and just said "Go".

What game insists upon the player to complete quests?

We didn;t need to be lead around like an animal, Sure we may have had missions in game but they were optional and only gave currency kinda like a job.

Yep, quests are a fast way to currency.

In todays MMos Quests give you so much more XP that you cant do anything else, if you do your gimped to hell.

Gimped to hell? Is that the same as forming up a team and running around to find mob camps to kill?

They basically kill Exploration and Rp. I'm sorry if a NPC has to tell you to travel to a location you're not exploring.

YEP, if you accept the quest forced upon you by that NPC

The lack of imagination to Rp and create our own adventures and the lack of motivation to explore and set out on our own little adventure kills me. Play MMos like your a dog, I refuse to.

Your correct, you dont have to take that kind of abuse, boycott the game and tell them that you will not be forced to take those quests because you refuse to accept the quest. OR, go out on your own without taking any quests.

 

Originally posted by seabeast

Originally posted by JGMIII

Why do we need all of these quests in a MMO telling us exactly where to go and what to kill?

Perhaps it is because developers are catering to the Wana-be hard  core group who need that "extra quest XP."

Stacking 25-50 quests in a log and being lead around a map like a dog is fun?

Yep, got to agree with you there, but that seems to be where the fast leveling is.,

Why do you need that Npc to tell you to walk passed that hill and kill ten wolves? Do you lack the motivation to actually explore over that hill on your own and kill a few wolves?

could go out and do it on your own, have not experienced an NPC walk up and insist I take the quest.

Why must I be told to explore a ruin or deep cave and kill a boss? Why can't we just explore the map with friends discover a ruins or cave and kill the boss on our own?

You can, why do you take the quests?

So much hand holding is needed in todays MMOs, Noone wants to just explore, group up and take shit down.

Must be the company your with. We do it all the time.

Why must we follow a lame story set on rails? Do you lack the imagination to create your own adventures and Rp with a group of friends?

?? Is that NPC approaching you ??

Why do we need all of these stupid collection quests? can we not just go find a nice camp and kill mobs and vendor the stuff we loot? is it not the same thing?

Find some new playmates.

It seems people need Quests to lead them, they are incapable of doing anything on their own.

Yep, change teammates.

The MMOs I played Gave us these epic sized gameworlds, filled it with challenging mobs and just said "Go".

What game insists upon the player to complete quests?

We didn;t need to be lead around like an animal, Sure we may have had missions in game but they were optional and only gave currency kinda like a job.

Yep, quests are a fast way to currency.

In todays MMos Quests give you so much more XP that you cant do anything else, if you do your gimped to hell.

Gimped to hell? Is that the same as forming up a team and running around to find mob camps to kill?

They basically kill Exploration and Rp. I'm sorry if a NPC has to tell you to travel to a location you're not exploring.

YEP, if you accept the quest forced upon you by that NPC

The lack of imagination to Rp and create our own adventures and the lack of motivation to explore and set out on our own little adventure kills me. Play MMos like your a dog, I refuse to.

Your correct, you dont have to take that kind of abuse, boycott the game and tell them that you will not be forced to take those quests because you refuse to accept the quest. OR, go out on your own without taking any quests.

 

Excellent, i appreciate the common sense approach.
 

Originally posted by leshtricity

Dude, I endorse the OP's points.

It is all about handholding and all that bullshit.

Alright you chill cats, let me lay it down for you: I like my online games like I like my government...which is to say, I want a great land with minimal involvement or intervention from the outside. You dig? Yeah. Give us a world, not a map. Give us total freedom, not direction or instruction. Give us liberty or give us death! Lolzness.

But yeah, that's what I'm thinking. We (and by 'we' I mean those of us 'in the know') want a rich and detailed world in which to be free, not confined to the same generic systems and themes. Really, think about it; so many of these online games tie you up into one extremely specific role or archetype in one extremely generic world. It's maddening to those of us 'in the know' as previously mentioned. We see the potential for the genre and when we see evolution and innovation thrown under the bus to accomodate sales trends, it's disgustingly sick.

Yes, I may sound like a stereotypical altruistic MMORPGer that thinks the sky is the limit, or thinks a development studio that works out of genuine passion for an idea is possible. But that's fine. What's funny is I'm the exact opposite when it comes to politics...people trying to build a better society are, in my mind, wasting time. Is that strange?

Not really all that strange, the world is full of people who think they know what's best for everyone when they really don't know spit.  I doubt anyone in the last year to make these mind numbingly elitist posts actually are devs and therefore have no knowledge base to make these foolish statements.  If you want innovation go and innovate the industry as opposed to telling us the masses who make it possible for mmos to exist how we should think and act and what we should do or how we should want to play.

I'm sorry but I'll hold the opinions of those who actually make the industry go around in much higher regard than that of people like the op and yourself who only complain about what is, these guys write massive amounts of code and sell hundreds of thousands of copies of games what has the op done for the industry other than admit that "carebear theme park" mmo's are just too hard for him to play the way he likes to, that sounds like the quintessential desire to live in the kingdom of caring.

Originally posted by JGMIII

Why do we need all of these quests in a MMO telling us exactly where to go and what to kill?

Stacking 25-50 quests in a log and being lead around a map like a dog is fun?

Why do you need that Npc to tell you to walk passed that hill and kill ten wolves? Do you lack the motivation to actually explore over that hill on your own and kill a few wolves?

Why must I be told to explore a ruin or deep cave and kill a boss? Why can't we just explore the map with friends discover a ruins or cave and kill the boss on our own?

So much hand holding is needed in todays MMOs, Noone wants to just explore, group up and take shit down.

Why must we follow a lame story set on rails? Do you lack the imagination to create your own adventures and Rp with a group of friends?

Why do we need all of these stupid collection quests? can we not just go find a nice camp and kill mobs and vendor the stuff we loot? is it not the same thing?

It seems people need Quests to lead them, they are incapable of doing anything on their own.

The MMOs I played Gave us these epic sized gameworlds, filled it with challenging mobs and just said "Go".

We didn;t need to be lead around like an animal, Sure we may have had missions in game but they were optional and only gave currency kinda like a job.

In todays MMos Quests give you so much more XP that you cant do anything else, if you do your gimped to hell.

They basically kill Exploration and Rp. I'm sorry if a NPC has to tell you to travel to a location you're not exploring.

The lack of imagination to Rp and create our own adventures and the lack of motivation to explore and set out on our own little adventure kills me. Play MMos like your a dog, I refuse to.

 

 I agree with you as well. Cheers friend.

Originally posted by JGMIII

Originally posted by Salvatoris

Originally posted by JGMIII

Originally posted by Salvatoris

Just because a game has quests doesn't mean you aren't also free to do whatever you want.  You want to just group up with your buddies and explore or dungeon crawl?  Most games allow that.  You don't like quests, don't do them. 

 

Not when a Game gimps your playstyle.

These games make questing the clear cut best way to progress a character.

Ever try to just explore and kill camps of monsters in a game like Lotro? It's horrible Is almost like they don;t want me to Explore stuff.

It limits me.

 

 

Why do you care if you level as fast as people who play differently than you?  Don't people with differing play-styles advance ad varying rates in Eve and Ryzom?  So what if someone else decides to grind out easy XP, whether it's from quests or grinding open world mobs.  Their game will quit being fun faster than yours...   This doesn't really have anything to do with games limiting your gameplay experiences. You guys just want to dictate the options available for everyone else.

Eve doesn't have levels so you don't really feel the need to keep up with your corp or fellow Rpers.

In Ryzom while the game has skill levels I can easily just switch to another skill and be on the same level as everyone else so we can Rp together.

In lotro If people are doing quests they gain around 5 times the XP i would get.  virtually taking me out of  the RP scene and forcing me to Quest stack to keep up with my fellow RPers.

MMOs aren't solo games (mine arent anyway), you need to keep up with people if you want to be social and actually group up.

 

This is a syndrome some of us here in America call "keeping up with the joneses" why exactly do you or anyone else actually need to be the same level as someone else playing the game? I play lotro and we have people who's mains are many different levels and we all spend lot's of time together because we actually make an effort to.  Of course someone level 20 can't come with us to moria but then again that pretty much follows a pattern of rl regardless of what you guys have convinced your self you basically do level up to things ask the independent owners of a fast food chain who worked his rear off for some 10-20 years to get to where he is or the ceo who spent countless amounts of time and money going to school to learn to do what he does and get to the position he is in.  alot of these posts just sound like you guys want to walk in and be able to do anything you want whenever you feel like you want to do it and nothing works that way hell you can't do that in most console rpgs so why do you guys expect that games with so much interpersonal interactions would be any different.

I agree with the sentiments of the OP regarding open ended MMOs, but not the delivery. :) A lot of modern MMOs are kind of hollow outside of their quests. But as someone else posted it's nice to have quests to fill in backstory or give you motivation every now and then.

It would be nice to make your own way in an MMO without having to quest, but if you wanted a "job" or to be a part of a storyline that influenced the game world, there'd be quests available. One way wouldn't be the only way to play. There's got to be a happy medium between the two. I'm hoping Mortal Online or Earthrise comes close.

Originally posted by Nizur

I agree with the sentiments of the OP regarding open ended MMOs, but not the delivery. :) A lot of modern MMOs are kind of hollow outside of their quests. But as someone else posted it's nice to have quests to fill in backstory or give you motivation every now and then.

It would be nice to make your own way in an MMO without having to quest, but if you wanted a "job" or to be a part of a storyline that influenced the game world, there'd be quests available. One way wouldn't be the only way to play. There's got to be a happy medium between the two. I'm hoping Mortal Online or Earthrise comes close.

A big part of the problem though is that WAY TOO much XP and way higher quality of items are given for performing "mindless repititious quests" which devalues any of the other content substantially. I agree the quick quests are nice to have as well but they typically are rewarded much too highly. Honestly if it wasn't for getting caught and banned I think 9 of 10 current MMOG players would love to go to bed and have their character macro up all night. then they could log in with bags of good loot and maxed skills... the next closest to this is running a bunch of check list quests and since the devs put em in there it like sanctioned cheating. it really does trivialize the efforts of people that want to explore or do something different. You don't know how many times I have thought to myself after a couple of hours of playing Warhammer "Wow I should have just macroed that session and played it again tomorrow" caus eit really does seem like that in Lotro and warhammer havent touched Wow in 3 years so I couldn't say there...

Originally posted by jaxsundane

Originally posted by leshtricity

Dude, I endorse the OP's points.

It is all about handholding and all that bullshit.

Alright you chill cats, let me lay it down for you: I like my online games like I like my government...which is to say, I want a great land with minimal involvement or intervention from the outside. You dig? Yeah. Give us a world, not a map. Give us total freedom, not direction or instruction. Give us liberty or give us death! Lolzness.

But yeah, that's what I'm thinking. We (and by 'we' I mean those of us 'in the know') want a rich and detailed world in which to be free, not confined to the same generic systems and themes. Really, think about it; so many of these online games tie you up into one extremely specific role or archetype in one extremely generic world. It's maddening to those of us 'in the know' as previously mentioned. We see the potential for the genre and when we see evolution and innovation thrown under the bus to accomodate sales trends, it's disgustingly sick.

Yes, I may sound like a stereotypical altruistic MMORPGer that thinks the sky is the limit, or thinks a development studio that works out of genuine passion for an idea is possible. But that's fine. What's funny is I'm the exact opposite when it comes to politics...people trying to build a better society are, in my mind, wasting time. Is that strange?

 

Not really all that strange, the world is full of people who think they know what's best for everyone when they really don't know spit.  I doubt anyone in the last year to make these mind numbingly elitist posts actually are devs and therefore have no knowledge base to make these foolish statements.  If you want innovation go and innovate the industry as opposed to telling us the masses who make it possible for mmos to exist how we should think and act and what we should do or how we should want to play.

I'm sorry but I'll hold the opinions of those who actually make the industry go around in much higher regard than that of people like the op and yourself who only complain about what is, these guys write massive amounts of code and sell hundreds of thousands of copies of games what has the op done for the industry other than admit that "carebear theme park" mmo's are just too hard for him to play the way he likes to, that sounds like the quintessential desire to live in the kingdom of caring.

Dudeness, I am by no means saying I know what 'the best' formula for an MMO is, or that my idea of an MMO is supremely it and nothing else matters. I understand that different folks enjoy different things.

All I'm saying is that, the fact of the matter is, these games are dumbed-down to accomodate a certain demographic. That's not saying people who play them are idiots. It's not saying they are not fun games. It's just saying that type of game is a little too elementary for some of us. I played Warcraft for almost two years; I enjoyed it, but for different reasons than why I enjoy more open-ended games. You are more than welcome to enjoy these games and the continuing trend of stereotypical MMORPGs, and I'll be content to be someone that just prefers more depth and freedom in my online games.

It's all taste, and I get that. No need to get snippy. I just come from a more pen-and-paper gaming background than anything else, so I tend to favor that open-ended feel.

I believe it is the game devs that are the problem. Hand holding is fine and good for noobs, I would go so far as saying that they are almost a must to get players into the game. However you should get less and less of them as the game progress.

But also, the quests are often badly written in most games today, so it is hard or even impossible to figure some out without handholding or checking the net.

The quests needs a lot more work from the devs, so I think it is lazyness from their side and not so much something the players really want or need. But quests like go and kill a goblin in a massive zone where only one specific named gives the update are useless.

Well written quests take long time to make, particulary when you need to make thousands of them. badly written once that has help from a map is easy to make and saves resources for the developers.

Posted by Sovrath on 5/22/09 at 11:13:18 AM

Also, given that most people have better uses for their time, they are probably not going to want to just spawn in the world and just find stuff to do which will consist of collecting imaginary mats to craft game materials to sell them for fake money and do it all again the next day. Added to that that camping mobs is pretty mindless and has nothing to do with an imagination.

Funny that is exactly what i did in games like Earth & Beyond (player name Dumdidum) and Daoc (player name Blandigan); stand in one spot non stop crafting for other players. And i had a blast doing so; i got to know most players, always had funny chats going and meanwhile i made a difference in the game world by providing a craft service.

Originally posted by leshtricity

It's all taste, and I get that. No need to get snippy. I just come from a more pen-and-paper gaming background than anything else, so I tend to favor that open-ended feel.

So did I and I think the problem for me is that the games go further and further away from the pen and paper RPGs.

Take WAR, ever played the Warhammer fantasy RPG? WAR is not a bad game but it have very little from the RPG game but instead used most things from EQ and Wow. And while those games where good, the original Warhammer is actually a lot better and more intresting.

The "quests" are all massive campaigns that are fun to play and are intresting, not "go and kill 20 goblins". MMOs have turned most quests into something fast and not so fun, instead of something epic.

There is a campaign for WFRPG that is called "The enemy within". The campaign starts when one of the players gets misstaken for a chaos cultist and gets a heritage. The players go into a city where they have to solve some murders and stop a chaos cult that plans to destroy the world. After that they will solve a huge riddle by searching old ruins and a powerful castle.... They go on one massive adventure to the next one until they get involved in a civil war after the emperor dies.

A fun and massive campaign where everything you do feels intresting, no grinding but you play for the adventure in it's own right (and I cut out more than half of the campaign).

MMOs tend to have smaller and more boring quest where what you get is more important then how fun getting it was. I am not saying MMOs (or WAR in particular, I only use the example since I played the pen and paper game for 20 years) are bad but they could be a lot more fun.

Quests should always be fun, long and feeling epic, not "go and deliver a message" or something. Players should feel like heroes shaping the world, not like henchmens to npcs that sends them on crappy missions all the time. If you want to go and grind, that is fine by me but you don't needs quests that tells you to do that anyways.

We have always used guides online to tell us where to go and what to kill to get exp or how to complete quests.

Extensive guides has always been widely used such as allakhazam.com and other sites depending on what game you played.

The only difference between today and then is we no longet ALT+TAB out of our game to get that information. We now have it in the game itself in form of quests guiding you in the directions you need which also serves the purpose of showing you were the great exp spots are.

I fail to see how the old days were better where you had to ALT+TAB out to get your information as to now have the exact same information available in the game itself. It should be self evident that it saves you some hazzle of leaving your game just to discover the same things we used to optain from various online guides. I know it certainly saves me a lot of printer ink.

Furthermore the systems set in place in games such as WoW has as much to do with eliminating griefing as it has making the game easy. Fighting over mobs and spawn camps plus kill stealing was a big problem back in the day. Only a vast minority were fans of a system that allowed those things to happen. Today we have games practically eliminating jerk behavior of some asshat running past your quest or exp spawn using an instant spell to take the kill away from you.

There is a bigger picture to be seen here and it doesn't all evolve around making MMORPGS excessible to 10 year old Johnni and his friends. It's an evolution that has happened over a decade based on peoples bitching and whining about game systems that just did not work. Now that those things are largely corrected the same people that bitched about them suddently decide to look back as those were the glory days

Thats pretty much the reason why i dislike questing.  Its much more fun to go out and explore the world trying to find those mini bosses strewn around the place.  WoW (surprisingly) was filled with these,  little caves inside of mountains that contained a little boss or some temple underwater with strange creatures...it was a blast to find those places.

Of course the ultimate game for this was SWG.  Pretty much every location you went was a brand new experiance (and usually deadly).

The thing about making a game fit your particular style by not using the available tools...well, I'd always feel like I was gimping myself or something. To me, it's not something that should have to be found on your own, it should just...be there or something.

Originally posted by Salvatoris

As much h as the Eve players like to think their game is fundamentally different than other MMOS, it is really pretty similar.  The XP in eve is cash.  The more you have, the better equipment you can field.  Eve is a game about grinding ISK rather than XP... in the end it's just like most other MMOs, except that the quest system is super lame.  In the absence of decent story driven content, the players have to create their own motivations and goals... and somehow they find freedom in that lack of gameplay options.

EvE dosent have a quest system my friend. Its just one way of grinding ISK to fly missions no diffrent then Sitting in an astroid belt and grinding for ISK... EVE is a Grind, for the people that have minds and focus and vision enough to understand WHY WE GRIND. I Get ISK to Wage War on other players, to build mor cheeper ships/weapons then other players, To controll the market from other players. EvE is a PVP game on all lvls, That is the beauty of it. Now I like to make money IRL also, its fun to make stuff and sell it and get money in the bank. Its fun to compet against other  franchises/brands and beat them. EVE is about going againt other players in the market, on the manafacturing table or on the battlefield. Its not about running the newest Theme Park ride that the devs made for you to enjoy. That is the diffrence In my book a human opponent beats an AI 10 times  out of 10. 

EVE dosent have Gamplay Options that the Devs put in front of you. But you could for exampel, like a few players have done for years now Start a bank, loan out money and invest in the market  http://www.eve-bank.net/default.aspx?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1 . Show my a Theme Park game where players could do this???

In EvE i can spend months spying in a corp and finaly stealing everything they have worked so hard to get.. Show me a Theme park MMO that offers me this?? 

In EVE I can also build my own starbase and station and change how the world looks show me a Theme Park MMO that offers me This??

In EvE I can shoot people and make them explode and loot thiere stuff, making a living grinding Real people for ISK show me a Theme Park MMO that offers me This?

In EVE I can start producing something that the Comunity at first dident know they needed but with advertisment and a sound business plan I can start to make alot off ISK off it. Im working for example to get more people into using Booster right now/ drugs in EvE. Also you can tap into a market that is fresh and new and make alot of ISK selling somthing there that nobody thought about selling. Show me a Theme Park MMO where I can do this???

I can go on all day but the core of EVE is it tht you can make a shit load of money if you have the brains and vison to do so, I know people that for example sell bookmarks to wormholes and Cosmos sites, it was lucrative as hell in the old days but EVE changed and with warp to 0,0 the bookmark selling droped.

Also if there are big Wars going down a competent arms dealer can keep them suplied if he knows and keeps up with the news ( we do have people that work as Jounralist in EVE also)

Within CCPS game world the only thing that limits what you can to are the BOarders of the sandbox. Its not about Quests its not about E-pen/getting gear its about competing against human opponents mush like CHEES or other great board games.

And yes, Eve fanboys do believe they are hardcore for playing Eve.  They also honestly believe they are more intelligent and mature than people who play any other MMO.  Of course, not everyone who plays Eve is a fanboy, but the percentage is much higher than most games.

And you ask why we think we are at the top of the FOOD chain, EvE needs creativity and brains  to play,

Now Salvatoris I hope this clears up any missunderstandings or missconceptions you migth have about EVE

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by Fibsdk

To make this short

 

We have always used guides online to tell us where to go and what to kill to get exp or how to complete quests.

 

Extensive guides has always been widely used such as allakhazam.com and other sites depending on what game you played.

 

The only difference between today and then is we no longet ALT+TAB out of our game to get that information. We now have it in the game itself in form of quests guiding you in the directions you need which also serves the purpose of showing you were the great exp spots are.

 

I fail to see how the old days were better where you had to ALT+TAB out to get your information as to now have the exact same information available in the game itself. It should be self evident that it saves you some hazzle of leaving your game just to discover the same things we used to optain from various online guides. I know it certainly saves me a lot of printer ink.

 

 Furthermore the systems set in place in games such as WoW has as much to do with eliminating griefing as it has making the game easy. Fighting over mobs and spawn camps plus kill stealing was a big problem back in the day. Only a vast minority were fans of a system that allowed those things to happen. Today we have games practically eliminating jerk behavior of some asshat running past your quest or exp spawn using an instant spell to take the kill away from you.

 

There is a bigger picture to be seen here and it doesn't all evolve around making MMORPGS excessible to 10 year old Johnni and his friends. It's an evolution that has happened over a decade based on peoples bitching and whining about game systems that just did not work. Now that those things are largely corrected the same people that bitched about them suddently decide to look back as those were the glory days

I play wihout any add ons and the game is so much better without it. Actually the adventuring part is so much better without ANY outside knowledge.
 

An exception is the reputation/lgear tables because I want to know which vendors can sell me interesting gear.

But I have thrown questhelper and all that shit already long out of the window. (about 1.5 years ago) and to me I had much more fun with leveling.

The turning point came when a friend of mine gave me a program which added a big fat ugly red arrow above your head. You simply had to follow that arrow to gain experience as fast as possible ! TERRIBLE it was (I used it for 2 bars and already was bored within 2 days of using it). No wonder people find leveling boring with such crap tools.

Everyone can play how he/she likes of course, but if the "time pressure" isn't on you, ... enjoy the ride through solving those quests who sometimes can be quite nice to read.

I seldom do more than 5/6 quests per day on a leveling character, the rest I play in PvP (yes even with a low X2, X3 etc).

The tric is simple: enjoy the ride and read the history behind the game.

OP: No quests ... no history.

I'm willing to bet you are a minority when it comes to avoiding addons that makes life easier from my experience. After all the evolution of MMORPGS went in the direction it has because us the players steered it in that direction with feedback, complaints, whines, spending habits.

If anyone is to blame it's the playerbase

Originally posted by Zlayer77

Originally posted by Salvatoris

As much h as the Eve players like to think their game is fundamentally different than other MMOS, it is really pretty similar.  The XP in eve is cash.  The more you have, the better equipment you can field.  Eve is a game about grinding ISK rather than XP... in the end it's just like most other MMOs, except that the quest system is super lame.  In the absence of decent story driven content, the players have to create their own motivations and goals... and somehow they find freedom in that lack of gameplay options.

EvE dosent have a quest system my friend. Its just one way of grinding ISK to fly missions no diffrent then Sitting in an astroid belt and grinding for ISK... EVE is a Grind, for the people that have minds and focus and vision enough to understand WHY WE GRIND. I Get ISK to Wage War on other players, to build mor cheeper ships/weapons then other players, To controll the market from other players. EvE is a PVP game on all lvls, That is the beauty of it. Now I like to make money IRL also, its fun to make stuff and sell it and get money in the bank. Its fun to compet against other  franchises/brands and beat them. EVE is about going againt other players in the market, on the manafacturing table or on the battlefield. Its not about running the newest Theme Park ride that the devs made for you to enjoy. That is the diffrence In my book a human opponent beats an AI 10 times  out of 10. 

EVE dosent have Gamplay Options that the Devs put in front of you.

[...]

 

Now Salvatoris I hope this clears up any missunderstandings or missconceptions you migth have about EVE

Although I agree with most of what you said about Eve, the mission system really is just a quest system, with NPCs giving you missions to kill/scout/escort the objective and return back to the NPC for the reward. And there is nothing wrong with that imo.

As for EVE being a grind, well I am a new player and tbh it doesn't feel like a grind since noone is forcing me to actually grind anything, not even ISK. I am concentrating on having a military career, and I still have sufficient money to do what I want to do without feeling that I am grinding. This is due to the myriad of ways you can make money in EVE from transport contracts, to salvaging, to trading, to mining, to doing missions, to shareholding.

I enjoy both sandbox and themepark games though and I am certainly enjoying EvE (it's not as hard as they say it is, it's just you always discover new things to do!). That being said, I would love to see a PVE focused game again, since all the recent releases have been all about pvp.

The only problem I have with some posters on here is they say that games have gone away from this and dont do this any more. That is not true. Some have, for sure, but there are sooo many mmo's out there for whatever your play style may be. There are open-ended games and PvP games and Story-driven games and player created content games and everything inbetween. I am really not sure what the point of this is. If you can not find an mmo that fits your style of play then you are not looking hard enough. If you say you have looked and still can not find one? Play another genre or leave it until something comes out that fits your TASTE. Because THAT is what I think it really comes down to.

Maybe it'snot so much a case of completely reinventing the wheel when it comes to quests, and perhaps MMO's in general. As much as we might all decry themepark, quest driven MMO's, we should all admit that they're extremely popular, and therefore that the good ones can make a shit load of money, something that investors and Devs alike will be very interested in.

So why not look at themepark and quest driven MMO's as the basic skeletal structure of an MMO, but then flesh it out in a completely different way? How did WoW get so popular? By taking the good bits of existing MMO's and (arguably) improving on them.

So why not take that 1 step further and improve on the very basics of the MMO model without changing it beyond recognition?

No, I'm not sure how this might work at present, been in the pub for 10 hours so I could very well be talking utter shite.

Originally posted by Zlayer77

Originally posted by Salvatoris

As much h as the Eve players like to think their game is fundamentally different than other MMOS, it is really pretty similar.  The XP in eve is cash.  The more you have, the better equipment you can field.  Eve is a game about grinding ISK rather than XP... in the end it's just like most other MMOs, except that the quest system is super lame.  In the absence of decent story driven content, the players have to create their own motivations and goals... and somehow they find freedom in that lack of gameplay options.

EvE dosent have a quest system my friend. Its just one way of grinding ISK to fly missions no diffrent then Sitting in an astroid belt and grinding for ISK... EVE is a Grind, for the people that have minds and focus and vision enough to understand WHY WE GRIND. I Get ISK to Wage War on other players, to build mor cheeper ships/weapons then other players, To controll the market from other players. EvE is a PVP game on all lvls, That is the beauty of it. Now I like to make money IRL also, its fun to make stuff and sell it and get money in the bank. Its fun to compet against other  franchises/brands and beat them. EVE is about going againt other players in the market, on the manafacturing table or on the battlefield. Its not about running the newest Theme Park ride that the devs made for you to enjoy. That is the diffrence In my book a human opponent beats an AI 10 times  out of 10. 

EVE dosent have Gamplay Options that the Devs put in front of you. But you could for exampel, like a few players have done for years now Start a bank, loan out money and invest in the market  http://www.eve-bank.net/default.aspx?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1 . Show my a Theme Park game where players could do this???

In EvE i can spend months spying in a corp and finaly stealing everything they have worked so hard to get.. Show me a Theme park MMO that offers me this?? 

In EVE I can also build my own starbase and station and change how the world looks show me a Theme Park MMO that offers me This??

In EvE I can shoot people and make them explode and loot thiere stuff, making a living grinding Real people for ISK show me a Theme Park MMO that offers me This?

In EVE I can start producing something that the Comunity at first dident know they needed but with advertisment and a sound business plan I can start to make alot off ISK off it. Im working for example to get more people into using Booster right now/ drugs in EvE. Also you can tap into a market that is fresh and new and make alot of ISK selling somthing there that nobody thought about selling. Show me a Theme Park MMO where I can do this???

I can go on all day but the core of EVE is it tht you can make a shit load of money if you have the brains and vison to do so, I know people that for example sell bookmarks to wormholes and Cosmos sites, it was lucrative as hell in the old days but EVE changed and with warp to 0,0 the bookmark selling droped.

Also if there are big Wars going down a competent arms dealer can keep them suplied if he knows and keeps up with the news ( we do have people that work as Jounralist in EVE also)

Within CCPS game world the only thing that limits what you can to are the BOarders of the sandbox. Its not about Quests its not about E-pen/getting gear its about competing against human opponents mush like CHEES or other great board games.

And yes, Eve fanboys do believe they are hardcore for playing Eve.  They also honestly believe they are more intelligent and mature than people who play any other MMO.  Of course, not everyone who plays Eve is a fanboy, but the percentage is much higher than most games.

And you ask why we think we are at the top of the FOOD chain, EvE needs creativity and brains  to play,

 

Now Salvatoris I hope this clears up any missunderstandings or missconceptions you migth have about EVE

Almost everything in GREEN sounds quite similar to jobs most people have in real life=)  The rest would be considered griefing or pissing people off in most games, so to each his own.   Other things are just given away for free.  In most MMOs you see, people aren't selfish enough to SELL information.   The just give it away.   People of course could sell FAQs or UI mods in most MMOs instead of just posting them, but the average person doesn't see that as a fun thing to do to people.

Yes, you can do a lot of things in Eve, except do things most people consider FUN or "playing" a game.  Again, to each his own.  Just don't think all that GREEN is anything that will make people go WOAH in a good way.  Its more like, WOAH, what a bore.  People pay a montly fee for that?

Originally posted by JGMIII

Why do we need all of these quests in a MMO telling us exactly where to go and what to kill?

Stacking 25-50 quests in a log and being lead around a map like a dog is fun?

Why do you need that Npc to tell you to walk passed that hill and kill ten wolves? Do you lack the motivation to actually explore over that hill on your own and kill a few wolves?

Why must I be told to explore a ruin or deep cave and kill a boss? Why can't we just explore the map with friends discover a ruins or cave and kill the boss on our own?

So much hand holding is needed in todays MMOs, Noone wants to just explore, group up and take shit down.

Why must we follow a lame story set on rails? Do you lack the imagination to create your own adventures and Rp with a group of friends?

Why do we need all of these stupid collection quests? can we not just go find a nice camp and kill mobs and vendor the stuff we loot? is it not the same thing?

It seems people need Quests to lead them, they are incapable of doing anything on their own.

The MMOs I played Gave us these epic sized gameworlds, filled it with challenging mobs and just said "Go".

We didn;t need to be lead around like an animal, Sure we may have had missions in game but they were optional and only gave currency kinda like a job.

In todays MMos Quests give you so much more XP that you cant do anything else, if you do your gimped to hell.

They basically kill Exploration and Rp. I'm sorry if a NPC has to tell you to travel to a location you're not exploring.

The lack of imagination to Rp and create our own adventures and the lack of motivation to explore and set out on our own little adventure kills me. Play MMos like your a dog, I refuse to.

 

Because a lot of today's MMOs aren't that fun, there isn't much story involved so there's no care of exploring. And quest make leveling easier. Face it mobs are morons and there isn't much of a challenge facing them especially when you're grinding and have to kill the 50 bore that day. A lot of these worlds aren't that interesting except visually.

There is no mystery in the world of many MMOs, no story, no excitment....so we need quests and the easiest way to end game to get on with the game.

In the last 5 years I've only come across one MMO that had story, had a level of mystery, and a level of excitment in the world...that MMO was WoW.....every other game has been a bore in comparison.

I'll give you an example of what I"m saying, if I was to randomely name off Hillsbrad or Stranglethorn Vale everyone that's played that game immediately knows what I"m talking about and what I mean...but if I was to name off Troll Country or Old Tarantia even for the ppl that played WAR and AoC they  would have little clue.

Originally posted by JGMIII

Why do we need all of these quests in a MMO telling us exactly where to go and what to kill?

Stacking 25-50 quests in a log and being lead around a map like a dog is fun?

Why do you need that Npc to tell you to walk passed that hill and kill ten wolves? Do you lack the motivation to actually explore over that hill on your own and kill a few wolves?

Why must I be told to explore a ruin or deep cave and kill a boss? Why can't we just explore the map with friends discover a ruins or cave and kill the boss on our own?

So much hand holding is needed in todays MMOs, Noone wants to just explore, group up and take shit down.

Why must we follow a lame story set on rails? Do you lack the imagination to create your own adventures and Rp with a group of friends?

Why do we need all of these stupid collection quests? can we not just go find a nice camp and kill mobs and vendor the stuff we loot? is it not the same thing?

It seems people need Quests to lead them, they are incapable of doing anything on their own.

The MMOs I played Gave us these epic sized gameworlds, filled it with challenging mobs and just said "Go".

We didn;t need to be lead around like an animal, Sure we may have had missions in game but they were optional and only gave currency kinda like a job.

In todays MMos Quests give you so much more XP that you cant do anything else, if you do your gimped to hell.

They basically kill Exploration and Rp. I'm sorry if a NPC has to tell you to travel to a location you're not exploring.

The lack of imagination to Rp and create our own adventures and the lack of motivation to explore and set out on our own little adventure kills me. Play MMos like your a dog, I refuse to.

 

Maybe a lot of players prefer to be lead around by hand. Doesnt have to mean they lack imagination. It could be just a 'easy entertainment after a hard day of work' kind of thing. Friend of mine likes Wow exactly for that reason. He definately doesnt lack the intelligence or imagination with his master degree (or whatever the exact translated term is) in physics. He told me that a lot of his colleagues at the university that he works, also play WoW.

I dont like WoW myself because I dont like to be lead by the hand. But then my job is not even close as demanding as his job. And it also is simply my hobby to play more difficult games.

The looking down on players that like easy entertainment makes no sense. Just look at movies. They are as easy as it can get. A spoonfed story. But still highly enjoyable.

Originally posted by JGMIII

Why do we need all of these quests in a MMO telling us exactly where to go and what to kill?

Stacking 25-50 quests in a log and being lead around a map like a dog is fun?

Why do you need that Npc to tell you to walk passed that hill and kill ten wolves? Do you lack the motivation to actually explore over that hill on your own and kill a few wolves?

Why must I be told to explore a ruin or deep cave and kill a boss? Why can't we just explore the map with friends discover a ruins or cave and kill the boss on our own?

So much hand holding is needed in todays MMOs, Noone wants to just explore, group up and take shit down.

Why must we follow a lame story set on rails? Do you lack the imagination to create your own adventures and Rp with a group of friends?

Why do we need all of these stupid collection quests? can we not just go find a nice camp and kill mobs and vendor the stuff we loot? is it not the same thing?

It seems people need Quests to lead them, they are incapable of doing anything on their own.

The MMOs I played Gave us these epic sized gameworlds, filled it with challenging mobs and just said "Go".

We didn;t need to be lead around like an animal, Sure we may have had missions in game but they were optional and only gave currency kinda like a job.

In todays MMos Quests give you so much more XP that you cant do anything else, if you do your gimped to hell.

They basically kill Exploration and Rp. I'm sorry if a NPC has to tell you to travel to a location you're not exploring.

The lack of imagination to Rp and create our own adventures and the lack of motivation to explore and set out on our own little adventure kills me. Play MMos like your a dog, I refuse to.

 

"Stacking 25-50 quests in a log and being lead around a map like a dog is fun?"

Yeah .. way more fun than standing at the same place killing the same mob in the same span of tiem.

way more fun than being ganged again and again at the same place by the same bullies.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

"Stacking 25-50 quests in a log and being lead around a map like a dog is fun?"

Yeah .. way more fun than standing at the same place killing the same mob in the same span of tiem.

way more fun than being ganged again and again at the same place by the same bullies.

 

In what game does that happen? 

I never hunt in the same area in Ryzom and I can;t probe out Combat, hacking and Arch sites in the same systems over and over in Eve.

Also Ryzom isnt FFApvp and Eve has safe zones.

Oh your talking about that PoS darkfall? bahh it blows wait for earthrise it will have safe zones and give ya some freedom without being freaking ganked by a few cimps a hundred times.