Originally posted by cukimunga

Originally posted by Josher

Its all a grind.  The difference is, loads of quests are more FUN than mindless spawn camping AND you can still grind away in any MMO with lots of quests.  You don't HAVE TO do the quests.  You NEVER have to do the quests.  However, once you remove the quests all you have is mindless mob grinding.  CHOICE is better than none.  People like choice.

Besides, its not a grind if you're having fun;)

Well quest grinding would be more fun if you could group up all the time. Its so hard to get people to group because you can solo most of the quests in any game anyways.   Id rather be in a group and grind mobs in the same place for hours than solo 50 quests solo.   Atleast you have people to bullshit with and that makes the grind not that bad for me anyways.

 

I wish there was a game that had fewer but more complex and interesting quests. In most games you just go to a quest hub get them all go out finish them real quick come back and turn them in.  

Like I said above, the new daily open world PvP quests with a PVE theme are a nice challenge in WotLK.
 

You can play them on a PVE server and have the tension and risk of a PvP server without the fear of being ganked with too powerful characters (it's all end game).

Giving them a daily form you can advance a lot of elements (from honor to experience, reputations, gold, professions advancements etc) within a framework of challeging content. Most of the time you can just beat the PVE mechanics, but 10-20% chance you hit on another avatar.

Sometimes leading to rather 'build up' fights as one comes in to support another. Mostly guildies who come in on both sides.

But if you don't accept the quests, you are not marked for PvP.

It is a mechanism that should be used in future designs: they avoid boredom, they avoid the extreme ganking of pure PvP servers, they avoid specific "rvr zones everyone ignores" and ... redoing them in a daily basis is far less grinding like than normal quests.

The most frustrating thing is to have to leave them because of the wandering ennemies. A challenge really.

Questing is grinding, but still a lot of people like it. The MMO genre is currently all about the grind. The problem is the lack of an alternative that works repeatedly and for hundreds of players at the same time. Of course everyone would like world changing grand quests with long story arcs but its nearly impossible to design an MMO world where quests that are completed thousands of times change something.

If you remove grinding, for what are you going to reward a player? I am talking especially about those 10000s of MMO players without any FPS-skills, 2 hours playtime per day and no feel for game mechanics. What do you expect them to do to get that shiny sword/ crafting materials / new skills? What will your 40 hour + content look like if you have no quests and grinding?

You could use a player-run EVE-like system but EVE also has a lot of grinding. You could go the MMOFPS route and design a cycle of getting stronger gear + killing a stronger boss to level up but that too could be classified as grinding. Ultimately every MMO is a computer game and thus a meaningless grind. No matter what system you come up with someone somewhere will say its a grind. Currently your only course of action is to find a MMO with a type of grind that entertains you.

Originally posted by 4Renziks

Ive been hearing this alot...people dont want to grind and to fix this they do quest over and over and over.....let me sheed some light on the unenlightened..QUESTING IS GRINDING...yes i said it.  WoW is Grindy...in fact any game that has levels has a grind...the only difference is too which route they take.  Quest grinding or Mob grinding....in the end they are both grinds.  The problem with Mob grinding is most of the time its done solo which = not fun....FFIX did this type of grind to perfections...group grinding can be quite enjoyable.  Quest Grinding is like Most MMO's released today....quest in a certain area, move to the next area, move to the next area....and so on... all while doing kill, fetch, or gather type quest with the occassional exceptions.  Its a very small part of the market that actually studies lore or read the quests.  Because of this a mojority of people are doing quest to level, NOT TO LEARN ABOUT LORE.  People doing quest over and over are grinding...sorry.  Quest just replaces the Mob in this case. 

I say my piece on this, but it already been echoed, I pretty much kinda agree with you.
What quests do is disguise the grind, and for some, like myself, make it fun.
It also gives a reason for killing things other then for the sake of killing them for xp and loot.
Group grinding in FFXI got old for me real quick.

Originally posted by cukimunga

Originally posted by Josher

Its all a grind.  The difference is, loads of quests are more FUN than mindless spawn camping AND you can still grind away in any MMO with lots of quests.  You don't HAVE TO do the quests.  You NEVER have to do the quests.  However, once you remove the quests all you have is mindless mob grinding.  CHOICE is better than none.  People like choice.

Besides, its not a grind if you're having fun;)

Well quest grinding would be more fun if you could group up all the time. Its so hard to get people to group because you can solo most of the quests in any game anyways.   Id rather be in a group and grind mobs in the same place for hours than solo 50 quests solo.   Atleast you have people to bullshit with and that makes the grind not that bad for me anyways.

 

I wish there was a game that had fewer but more complex and interesting quests. In most games you just go to a quest hub get them all go out finish them real quick come back and turn them in.  

While playing WOW I grouped up with friends and did quests together most of the time.  It took but a quick line in guild chat,.."Hey, guys, I'm in Zone X, who wants to come?" or me popping ito Vent and saying Hi.    Ussually a couple of guys would show up within 10 minutes and I didn't have to wait either.  Sure, maybe we got less experience, but so what?  It was more fun questing with friends then alone, and being on a PvP server meant protection and MORE fun.  I don't enjoy playing a MMO alone either, but having the option is ALWAYS better.   Doing a quest with purpose, a reward, and some lore is better than mindless mob slaughter any time.  I'll NEVER go back to that again.  Its the laziest form of design there is.

WOW had plenty of  quest chains that ussually involved a dungeon which meant grouping, better rewards and a challenge, so I don't quite understand what your issue is?   Choosing to ignore them isn't a problem with the game.  There were also plenty of elite areas that were difficult to solo at the appropriate level.   You could also just go to a higer level zone in a group and kill red mobs.  NOTHING stopped you.  That way,  your experience didn't even suffer much.  Sounds like lack of effort.

Anyone who thinks games with lots of quests are not grindy, go play lotro. Every new area has the same quests with new names on them. I can't even begin to count how many boars/wargs/whateverthefuck I had to kill to complete all those quests to reach level 40. I finally threw up, came to my senses and logged off for good.

Oh man, I played Pacman the other day. All I did was grind out little dots and ghosts. It was so lame that I had to grind just to get to the next level. So then I played Galaga. All there was to do was grind away at alien ships. Soooo repetitive!

Then I thought... Hey I'll jump forward a decade in games to see how much better things had gotten. I played some Doom and ZOMG(!) the game is one big grind to hell! Shoot shoot shoot... I said F' that and fired up the all time classic X-Com. It was mission after mission grinding away at alien crash sites. Yawn...

I had enough grinding games. All I had to do was turn on the TV and grind went away. I saw that Adam guy lose American Idol (thank god!) and it was so NOT grinding. From now on its cheetos, Mtn Dew, and the TV remote in one hand. That way I don't have to grind anymore.

In my case, questing basically constitutes "objective based grinding," since, with very few exceptions, I usually find that reading the dialogue within a quest is usually as tedious as the grind itself, regrettably.

Unless I have a specific goal in mind, however, I find that I quickly become disorganized, at which point questing tends to become beneficial as it automatically provides me with the objectives I need to stay motivated. Although, if I'm trying to multitask, I actually enjoy how mindless mob-grinding can be at times.

Originally posted by TheHavok 

But in my own personal opinion, any game that revolves around progression and the goal for most of the people to reach the end of that progression, is grindy. 

Thank you. 

Replacing mob grinding with quest grinding didnt solve any thing.  You can spend all the time you want reading the quest text and trying to immerse your self in the lore, but as long as its static and scripted, who the hell cares.  You're not part of the world or the lore, you're just watching the movie.  And, in the end, you're still just waiting for your xp-and-shiny-loot hand out.

Originally posted by DeserttFoxx

wish people would stop complaining about grind period.

 

If you dont like grinding stop playing MMOs, all MMOs have grind.

If players would just adopt the idea that what you do in mmorpgs is grinding, they would understand.  They should stop playing.