Well let me start of by saying that I've been playing mmos for the last 8 years, my list of played titles in order:

Dark Age of Camelot: my first mmo and one of the best i have played.
Linage 2: man I had a blast going Red and killing Chinese farmers in this game, hehe. Ambushing people and pawning them outside towns with my Bow fully charged with soulshots, dam those where fun times. Played it a solid 2 years.
EVE: the last sandbox… This game is the Superior game on the market today. Nasty PvP, solid community. Its hard enough to get all the shitty people to quit before the tutorial ends. Real politics, player driven and crafting that actually has a purpose. My praise for EVE goes a long way. Almost forgot to train skills over time vs lvls wins 9 times out of 10. Im still playing it ?
WoW: Solid game, they polished it to perfection over the first year of its existence. It also raised the bar and created the theme park sub genre in the MMO market. I played until they released the burning crusade.
LOTRO: Nice PvE game, they have a lot of fun stuff like music system, player housing. And you can play dress-up games with your toon. The lack of PvP killed it for me, but from a PvE stand point its one of the best games out there.
AOC: Age of Conan… lolz man I was in SCUM, we pawned people to death haha, never had so mush hate thrown at me in an MMO before. When it was released it was pure skill based, items did not mean mush. Had a lot of stupid people stand still while I ran around them and killed them. First fantasy mmo where I could kill groups of people the same lvl and higher then me at the same time. It was truly epic, when you had three or more people attacking you and they all ended up dead as they lacked the skills on their keyboard to fight you. I do give that the game had some design flaws and a lot of bugs, but I had a lot of fun playing it.
WAR: Urk…. The worst game iv played, spawning battlegrounds all day to lvl.. it got boring way to fast, and the only game I don’t recommend people to play ever…It’s the first game iv just felt like man I don’t want to log in.
Pirates of the Burning Sea: Tested the trail a few days ago and got hooked. This game is actually a lot of fun. Yar! On the high seas.

With that lengthily Introduction here come the meat of my post. After playing for so long I’ve just come to the conclusion I’m dead Tired of the Tank and spank MMOs. They where good and fun back in the day, but if I have to play another fantasy setting MMO with your usual four archetypes I’m going to cry: Healer, Tank, Ranged DPS and Melee DPS. We have seen this to death. It’s not new; it’s not innovating, and if you have played one you have basically played them all. All games have their own feel and mood, and stuff that they do best and stuff they are less good at.
But I think that we actually need a new type of MMO to bring us into the next decade. Devs should do away with the hole Tank and spank concept and create something ells. Change the levelling system, make it more off a progression and character growth. For example you start out as a kid and after one years subscription you go into early adult hood and after five-six years you are old grey and powerful. Stop making the same old classes for people to play and stop making the same sort of challenges, that require the usual Tank and spank. Why not make riddles, complex puzzles and other stuff to keep the players focused and challenged? Why not make moral dilemmas, where you have to actually make a choice that will effect your character in the long run?

The potential of MMOs are endless, If devs had any balls they would make sandboxed games, but as they like to be in control (cant blame them mmos cost tons of cash) we wont see any costly games go this way. My prediction is that the Theme Park games will reign supreme until people are no longer willing to pay for them.
And sadly the mass audience is lazy and stupid so this will take a long long time if it ever happens.
I have enjoyed most of the games in this genre, that I’ve given a fair chance (War being the exception to the rule). But I have only stuck with one and that is EVE. The reason for this is that it doesn’t hold my hand, and it is the game that gives me the most freedom within its game world to do what I want. I also like that the Players drive EVE and not the next dungeon/item the Devs release. I personally think that MMOs should be about the players that play the game, what they do should matter in the great scheme of things. If you look at most fantasy MMOS they are only about self progression, thru running quest/dungeons etc. EVE is about community/politics, and what you have today can be lost tomorrow. It’s not about instant thrills it’s about planning scheming and executing a well made plan ?

Sadly it looks like most people that play this genre want the Theme Park experience. They don’t like to lose their stuff when they Die, and they want to dress-up their avatars in fancy items. Only time will tell if we will get more Sandbox games or more Theme Park once. But if you are making the latter you best have big coffers because the competition is fierce, and the market is reaching its limit. Everyone has just seen it all and Tanked and spanked it all before.

Your request for something  different is valid.

However, your request that devs not make "tank and spank" games anymore is not.

You just stated how much fun you had playing these games. You don't think anyone else playing their first MMORPG will ever have fun playing "tank and spank"? You had your fun, and you're bored with it, so everyone born from now on should never experience these games?

IMO you should ask for this new genre of game you'd like to play, but there's no reason to deny future generations from having the same sort of fun you did. What would that accomplish?

It doesn' t have to be either or. Developers can make First Person Shooter Games AND MMORPGs. They can make '"tank and spank" mmorpgs, AND whatever it is you are asking for. Why not?

Although there are many threads calling for more sandbox MMOs. I wager the vast majority of players are content with the current framework ..they just want something fresh. Unfortunatly there really hasnt been a serious sandbox MMO contender since SWG (early) to see how a sandbox MMO will do these days.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

IMO you should ask for this new genre of game you'd like to play, but there's no reason to deny future generations from having the same sort of fun you did. What would that accomplish?

 

I have to comment on this. I used to look forward to coming home after a long day at school/work to log into an MMORPG and be someone else, and play with a completely differnt set of people, that were not the people I spent the day with.

Theme park games are good, there is no denying that. It's just there is a market for players who're looking for something differnt. Theme park games shouldn't be abolished from the MMORPG genre, they should still be able to thrive and such. But it seems to me that people (specifically on this board) want an MMORPG thats not WoW but have the same amount of numbers.

I read somewhere that when WoW was being made, the devs said that they needed 1 million subscribers to gain the money they spent back. Back then, 1 million active subscribers was a ludacris numbers to think about. But times change, more players are being dragged into the genre, computers are being sold with more graphical power, so games can be played.

Asking for an mmo (specifically sandbox) to have 11 million players is ludacris. 500,000, in my opinion, is a number thats not too out of reach.

Originally posted by Kodgemmo

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

IMO you should ask for this new genre of game you'd like to play, but there's no reason to deny future generations from having the same sort of fun you did. What would that accomplish?

 

 

I have to comment on this. I used to look forward to coming home after a long day at school/work to log into an MMORPG and be someone else, and play with a completely differnt set of people, that were not the people I spent the day with.

Theme park games are good, there is no denying that. It's just there is a market for players who're looking for something differnt. Theme park games shouldn't be abolished from the MMORPG genre, they should still be able to thrive and such. But it seems to me that people (specifically on this board) want an MMORPG thats not WoW but have the same amount of numbers.

I read somewhere that when WoW was being made, the devs said that they needed 1 million subscribers to gain the money they spent back. Back then, 1 million active subscribers was a ludacris numbers to think about. But times change, more players are being dragged into the genre, computers are being sold with more graphical power, so games can be played.

Asking for an mmo (specifically sandbox) to have 11 million players is ludacris. 500,000, in my opinion, is a number thats not too out of reach.

I understand the sentiment, just not the approach.

The OP is tired of standard MMORPGs. OK fine, DON"T PLAY THEM ANYMORE. Instead he says Devs shouldn't make them anymore.

What, he's the only game players on the planet, and if he's bored with a game genre, it shouldn't be made any more?

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Kodgemmo

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

IMO you should ask for this new genre of game you'd like to play, but there's no reason to deny future generations from having the same sort of fun you did. What would that accomplish?

 

 

I have to comment on this. I used to look forward to coming home after a long day at school/work to log into an MMORPG and be someone else, and play with a completely differnt set of people, that were not the people I spent the day with.

Theme park games are good, there is no denying that. It's just there is a market for players who're looking for something differnt. Theme park games shouldn't be abolished from the MMORPG genre, they should still be able to thrive and such. But it seems to me that people (specifically on this board) want an MMORPG thats not WoW but have the same amount of numbers.

I read somewhere that when WoW was being made, the devs said that they needed 1 million subscribers to gain the money they spent back. Back then, 1 million active subscribers was a ludacris numbers to think about. But times change, more players are being dragged into the genre, computers are being sold with more graphical power, so games can be played.

Asking for an mmo (specifically sandbox) to have 11 million players is ludacris. 500,000, in my opinion, is a number thats not too out of reach.

 

I understand the sentiment, just not the approach.

The OP is tired of standard MMORPGs. OK fine, DON"T PLAY THEM ANYMORE. Instead he says Devs shouldn't make them anymore.

What, he's the only game players on the planet, and if he's bored with a game genre, it shouldn't be made any more?

hehe, I understand what you're saying. It's selfish for a single person to wish for a subgenre to be compeltely diminished because they don't like it.

The op, I think, is looking for an mmorpg that has the same numbers as the game's he's tried already, but not a theme park game.

Seems to me that he'd better stick with Eve. lol.

Hehe kinda fun that my post is so long that nobody botherd to read it. You al just read Imotheps Response, I must ask where in my post did I quote say stop making a certian MMO type? 

funny how things work, but try reading what I said please before posting... 

ps: And me saying the Devs should do away with things was for this new typ of mmo that should be created, its not a STOP making the old kind statment.

Originally posted by Zlayer77

Hehe kinda fun that my post is so long that nobody botherd to read it. You al just read Imotheps Response, I must ask where in my post did I quote say stop making a certian MMO type? 

funny how things work, but try reading what I said please before posting... 

 

ps: And me saying the Devs should do away with things was for this new typ of mmo that should be created, its not a STOP making the old kind statment.

My apologies. I did misread your statement. I agree that it's time for some new style MMORPGs. It's been long enough, the market is mature, and the older more experienced gamers are ready for the next evolution.

For a first mmorpg, themeparks work great. After you've played them for years, you do get ready to move on to soemthing a bit more in depth.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

For a first mmorpg, themeparks work great. After you've played them for years, you do get ready to move on to soemthing a bit more in depth.

Define a game with depth in MMO genre.

-I'll give you the finger, sir, if your answer is "a sandbox game". There is no reason why themeparks cannot be deep. Unless I'm misunderstanding the term completely.

Everyone can find depth in a game they love. With the games you hate, you rarely get past the surface. After you discover what's hidden inside, you're usually hooked already.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

For a first mmorpg, themeparks work great. After you've played them for years, you do get ready to move on to soemthing a bit more in depth.

 

Define a game with depth in MMO genre.

-I'll give you the finger, sir, if your answer is "a sandbox game". There is no reason why themeparks cannot be deep. Unless I'm misunderstanding the term completely.

Everyone can find depth in a game they love. With the games you hate, you rarely get past the surface. After you discover what's hidden inside, you're usually hooked already.

Perhaps a better way to put it would be games that allow the players to change the game world. No matter what I do in WoW, the game world stays the same.

I really  cannot take any statement seriously that challenges the trinity of the healer-tank-dps unless a better system is provided. The only solution that readily comes to me is instead of healing, priests concentrate on bringing the dead back to life in order to keep fighting. That way the role of the healer is no longer to spam heals on the tank, there is no main tank actually. I would like to hear about different ideas that are out there... but challenging the notion of tank and spank (core tank and spank, it has come a LONG way from the days of EQ to the days of Wrath of the Lich King) is challenging the goliath with just a slingshot.

Hmm as you are not thinking out of the BOX meltdown I understand you cant take what I said seriously. What if I said the game had no use for healing? What if I said the Game did not need tanking?

What if I said that the game is all in one big city where you live breathe and work, what if I said the game is set In a world mush like our own.

Or what if I say the game is set in Wuxia (Chinese comic books) universe, and that it would be totally martial arts based, you could learn different styles and fight different opponents but PvE content would not be based on the AI getting agro, but randomly selecting or even worse attacking the weakest link in the group. No heals would mean you had to get the thing off your comrade fast or he would die.

What if I say it’s a space MMO, FPS shooter where you might be able to revive your comrades( like in Gears of War) if you get to them in time. But a nasty hit would splatter them across the walls.

What if I say its an intrigues game where you never ever have to pick up a weapon yourself, you lead from the tactical table and you plot to Poison or to outmanoeuvre your opponent both political and Military. What if I said it would be based on Ancient ROM and you would play as a senator, Tributary state administrator, legion commander etc

What if I say You would play as a Vampire and the game would start in year 1000 and each year of real time the game world would jump one 100 years. New players that join would be weaker then you as they became vampires hundreds of years later. If they started the game 2 years after you did. Also direct conflict would maybe not be the thing for this game. But more a power behind the throne, and Social experiment. Moral issues and things like: what would you be able to sacrifice to gain power.

What if I say that you would play in a post apocalyptic world where you had to Rebuild, work together and make a new society. Fighting of the people that just want a fast buck and prey upon the Weak. Every day Ingame would be a fight to just stay alive and make the world a better place.

Meltdown try thinking outside the BOX for once. IM Tired of the TANK AND SPANK I think the MMO genre has more to offer its players don’t you?
 

Hehe, some decent ideas there Zlayer. I think you are right though. The holy trinity, while being the current foundation of MMO gameplay is not necessary and hasn't been necessary for a long time. It is however what works.

End of the day, it boils down to developers not wanting to take a risk and deviate too much from the norm. It would involve pretty much throwing the idea of a 'Class' out the window. Here is where things get more innovative and interesting though.

-Progress vertically and horizontally

- Make the player's journey and experiences dictate what his character can do

Many thought the answer would be a skill based system, but there hasn't been a high profile (Darkfall is not high profile in the larger market) MMO to do that and be able to compete with the big names in the MMO industry.

Perhaps moving away from the MMO-RPG space and into perhaps the RTS/FPS/Simulation space would make things more interesting. There is a lot that can be done really. Just needs someone to develop a solid idea for an MMO and follow it through.

Originally posted by Zlayer77

Meltdown try thinking outside the BOX for once. IM Tired of the TANK AND SPANK I think the MMO genre has more to offer its players don’t you?

It depends on how you want your box to be. Some people's box is limited to the trinity of tank-healer-dps. Some people's box is limited to the scope of what a keyboard and mouse driven multiplayer experience can offer them. Some people's box is limited only to the extent of which their brain can comprehend the space time continuum. But my point is regardless of the box you portray its your own box that you either create or is handed to you.

My idea was a re-rendering of a few system you have already described (being the "TANK AND SPANK" mentality of a fantasy based RPG. So you gave me the box, I just attempted to add a few extra corners. Even you can be criticized for thinking of ideas that limit yourself to the realm of things you have already experienced in some way shape or form (Gears of War, Wuxia, Vampires, post-apolyptic world). So that is your box.

I don't know if I agree with the notion that the MMO genre has more to offer its players. Every single example you mentioned offers similar experiences already found in MMOs now and MMOs in development.

Like our own world - Second Life

Martial arts with an AI gimmic for target selection - Pick and choose your random F2P martial arts game

FPS Space Shooter - Jumpgate

FPS Shooter - Planetside

FPS Shooter with reviving comrades? - Its just Tabula Rasa in first person

Game where you pick a weapon at start and choose from a tactical list of abilities - The Chronicles of Spellborn (too easy)

Vampires - Requim? I don't remember for sure

Game where there is a king of the hill type person who is more powerful? - Sounds like Archlord to me

Post apocalyptic World - Fallout 3 or Fallen Earth I mean heck look at the overview description of Fallen Earth:

"This post-apocalyptic MMO is set in and around the Grand Canyon. After a plague wipes out most of civilization the remaining survivors, many mutated by the disaster, vie for control of the resources that remain. Play as a part of one of the game’s six factions in this classless MMO that incorporates a unique crafting system, player vs player action and more."

Really it's easier to be negative on these boards than positive. But I still retain hope for the genre, I just don't see the light at the end of the tunnel... yet. The real factor that limits the movement of ideas like these is that the architecture of the industry is to take millions of dollars and throw it at developers until they come out with something. Any taking any new idea and throwing money at it is and always has been a huge risk. So its up to the small guys. If MMOs could be made on the cheap we would have so much better options. Look at flash gaming as an example. Talk about people who have thought outside of their own box. If MMOs could be developed with a similar time and cost investment (basically none?) we would see a lot more crap and a lot more gold... but its never going to be THAT easy!!!

Originally posted by Zlayer77

Hmm as you are not thinking out of the BOX meltdown I understand you cant take what I said seriously. What if I said the game had no use for healing? What if I said the Game did not need tanking?

What if I said that the game is all in one big city where you live breathe and work, what if I said the game is set In a world mush like our own.

Ok no spank and tank combo here

Or what if I say the game is set in Wuxia (Chinese comic books) universe, and that it would be totally martial arts based, you could learn different styles and fight different opponents but PvE content would not be based on the AI getting agro, but randomly selecting or even worse attacking the weakest link in the group. No heals would mean you had to get the thing off your comrade fast or he would die.

Martial arts is your DPS, the person taking the bad guy off of you would now become your tank till you could take it off him.  Your just trading dps and tank roles around.

What if I say it’s a space MMO, FPS shooter where you might be able to revive your comrades( like in Gears of War) if you get to them in time. But a nasty hit would splatter them across the walls.

Healer here, and the people dishing the damage are the dps and tanks combined

What if I say its an intrigues game where you never ever have to pick up a weapon yourself, you lead from the tactical table and you plot to Poison or to outmanoeuvre your opponent both political and Military. What if I said it would be based on Ancient ROM and you would play as a senator, Tributary state administrator, legion commander etc

The commander would be maneuvering is dps (archery/cavalary - yes Rome had them especially in it's declining years) with it's tank/dps (infantry - the standard manipole)

What if I say You would play as a Vampire and the game would start in year 1000 and each year of real time the game world would jump one 100 years. New players that join would be weaker then you as they became vampires hundreds of years later. If they started the game 2 years after you did. Also direct conflict would maybe not be the thing for this game. But more a power behind the throne, and Social experiment. Moral issues and things like: what would you be able to sacrifice to gain power.

So each individual person is the healer/tank/dps.

What if I say that you would play in a post apocalyptic world where you had to Rebuild, work together and make a new society. Fighting of the people that just want a fast buck and prey upon the Weak. Every day Ingame would be a fight to just stay alive and make the world a better place.

Once again each individual person would be the tank/dps/healer

Meltdown try thinking outside the BOX for once. IM Tired of the TANK AND SPANK I think the MMO genre has more to offer its players don’t you?
 

No offense but I see the tank, healer, dps combo in almost ever single scenario you mentioned.  My replies are in light blue to complement your rainbow effects haha
 

If your going to get rid of healing, then you need to get rid of the need for healing, so you get rid of damage.  Getting rid of damage means you get rid of the tank and dps.  If you are going to have people fighting you automatically have DPS and tanks, whether you call them that, give them a class/role or have the people do it themselves.  Someone at some time is going to be taking the brunt of the tank (now called the tank) while someone else can just focus on damage (now called dps) until the tank is too low than the dps now becomes the tank.  The healer thing can go but it makes it harder for the tank/dps to live in harder encounters.

You can't get rid of them if you are going to have fighting, all you can do is get rid of the name and the limitation of just being one.

Venge Sunsoar

Maybe I've said this a hundred times, but the tank is the keystone of the holy trinity. Remove tank and the game has to have a decent AI instead of a half-arsed aggro system. There are no tanks in PvP so it's already a proven method. Sure it forces the players to think which is good for some, bad for others. There'll always be trinity games for those who want to keep combat simple.

Few games have been rattling the cage already. GW for instance. I'm sure there's more.

Keep an eye on "Fallen Earth"  should bring something new to the to table.

Holy Trinity is good if you liike good team work PvE. Not so much if you enjoy playing your MMORPGs solo.

I really do not share all the feelings with game experiences you mentioned, OP. Mostly because I hated Lineage 2 with a passion and I just think EVE sucks. :(

So, you like EVE so much you want more MMOs to be like it and you want to come away from the traditional class system. Ok, but have you thought about why you want this aside from the fact you're just bored of your games? Being bored can easily be cured by going and playing other games for a while. Or is it you simply think games will become stale because no one will be creative? 

Well.. honestly, posting probably won't change that. It's too bad when a company makes a game that fails, but that was their fault for not testing their game and getting feedback to obtain guidance in the first place. You mentioned WAR... well, did WAR ever have official forums during its testing phases? Did they ever have anything more than "Please rate our game on a scale of 1 to 5?" No... Rest assured that there are people who are thinking like you out there that will be in game companies smart enough to test what is fun and what isn't and notice design mistakes. Mythic just doesn't appepar to be one of them. 

I have tried Eve numerous times and disliked that game every time. It's just a bunch of eye candy in space and boring flying around (looks amazing though) with boring pvp and boring political nonsense. EVE is more for the patient people that like playing those really complicated games. So it's definitely an acquired taste or a personality thing. I personally can't play anything slower than an MMORPG and anything slower I'd prefer to just go watch a movie or something.

Without a traditional class system, you're left with two choices - no class system at all (like counter-strike compared to Team Fortress 2), or classes based on a skill system (which is really just the same thing) or a class system that has no tanks and healers. Frankly the no tanks or healers system is just going to turn the game into an FPS with melee/ranged combat with skills. That could be fun if done right, but I see no possible future for an MMO such as this except for maybe a Starcraft MMO (and there's already Planetside!)...

WoW is not just a theme park as you put it. The dungeons are the theme park that you are talking about. The rest of the open world is filled with great PvE content hard enough to respawn everything you kill right back on top of you and grant you a walk back from the graveyard plenty of times. WoW also has great nontwinked world PvP. But the perfectly organized dungeons you mention are what make leveling so much fun. You can get incredible loot from them and have a blast doing the "tank and spank" gameplay you're talking about in one of the most quality MMORPGs in history. Focus on what else it has then. The battlegrounds PvP is also a different form of gameplay based on the diablo twink model. You get to highest level and buy your alt/twink the best gear you can afford and go play them in the bgs. I think the twink model is fun as I have two twinks myself, but I also feel that model ruins nontwink gameplay entirely and leaves the only option for nontwinks to pvp in the world - where they are trying to level... But I still think WoW is a great game. But WoW's success is not its model gametype. It's because Blizzard takes feedback, tests, and bases game design and mechanics on what they find. It's the same process Valve software goes through. I mention Valve because they have a lot of developer commentary describing these testing processes and critical thinking techniques they use in all of their games so it should kinda be a familiar example.

Game designers must absolutely learn what game they are creating and how it feels to play that game before they follow through with implementing that into the game...

Well actually WoW is the best Theme Park MMO ever created.

the Defeniton of a Theme Park mmo is a game that has great PvE content, Solid fun Rides, lots of stuff to dazzle your Eyes and keep you Entertained.

Now the reason you think Linage 2 wasent good and the Reason you think EvE sucks is that, those MMOs are hard Work! they do not hold your hand, lead you by the nose to the next big Ride. You have to Work, work like a Peon to get what you want and other players try to sabotage and destroy you as you do it.

I like Chess I like strategic board games, I like to Win. I like a challenge. You get a special reward mentaly when you realy give it to the enemy, destroying thier ships for good, Poding them and making a dent in thier wallets, its not like beating someone in WoW pvp and they go repair some stuff, maybe because Blizzard has made repairing in PvP mostly none existant.

Theme Park mmos are for the people that just want to have fun, nothing wrong with this, having a blast with your friends doing alot of stuff running around and getting Entertained.

EvE is not Entertaining, its blood sweet and tears, its a jobb, its something you do to test yourself, your mental capabilitys, how good you are at scheming people. Its like a War sim, how it would be to fight enemies on the battle field. Its a Trade sim, how it would be to run big Retail operations and manafacturing.

You cant compare the games with one another, Theme Park is entertainment  VS Sandbox that is Work and a real challenge.

I like to be challenged..... Not do endless Tank and Spank for E-pen gear, come on...

PS; this is not a fact but a hypothesis of mine. If you would look at the subscribers on your average Theme park  mmo vs a sandbox like EvE.  You would find that the Sandbox games have alot more higher Educated People playing.  This comes from both the fact that more children play Theme park, and that people  that like to use thier brains more go for the most challeging game they can find.

And no English is not my native language... I do speak 5 diffrent once in totall...