I played long enough, admitingly some time ago, to know how the system works and it is fair to say that time sub'd equals more skills, period.  It is also accurate to say that if you have a player who starts today and one that starts a month or two later that the player who started later will never catch up to the player that started earlier as the skills earned are based not of accomplishment or play time but character time.  That statement only serves to highlight that condition in saying that it is unfair that a sub'd player doesn't catch up to and unsub'd player, CCPs own words call that an unfair advantage.  I am not saying it breaks the game, but come on - it is a major impediment to players started now verse those who have been playing any length of time.

I think the change is a good one (as it does at least let active accounts catch up to inactive ones) but I just find the stated reasoning from CCP ironic as they unwittingly confirm one of the biggest issues people have in coming late to the game.

Originally posted by Kyleran 

And lets cut to the chase about the elimination of ghost training. Forget the excuses, CCP wanted to make more money, and elimination of Ghost training seems to have accomplished exactly that.  

On this much we agree.

Ghost Training
The only people that truly suffered from the loss of ghost training was character sellers. The people who actually play the game with either their single account or multiple accounts for alts are for the vast majority not bothered by it at all. Am I really gonna be upset that my character can't train to finish a skill I set before cancelling my account ? This makes no sense to me, either I like the game and I am playing and therefore not ghost training or I do not like the game and not playing it and therefor don't care about the game or my character.

Skillpoints
While it is true a new player will never catch up in total skillpoints this does not mean they cannot catch up in the relevant skills they need for a certains hip class is the new player specializes at first. Once those SPs are caught up and they can be then the newer player can start cross training and be just as good as the vet in other ships. Just because there is no limit to the total SPs a character can have this does not mean that a character is all powerful. Skills have caps and every ship class only uses a set ammount of skills at a time anyways.

CCP and Money

CCP wanted to make more money ? OMFG, how dare they want to make money off those characters being sold by the gold farmers who trained up those characters for nothing.

Seriously get over it. CCP needs to eat and pay their employees and if you think they are being money hungry capitalist assholes then vote with your wallet and go play something else, maybe some game made by a bunch of hippies that want to spread cheer and joy throughout the world for nothing.

Are you guys really arguing over a change that occurred 8 months ago still?

Originally posted by Taram

Are you guys really arguing over a change that occurred 8 months ago still?

Yeah..forum drama is nice, don't you think so?

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Originally posted by AgtSmith
I played long enough, admitingly some time ago, to know how the system works and it is fair to say that time sub'd equals more skills, period. 

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yes. absolutely. However more skills does not equal more fun. It also doesn't mean you will win a PvP fight. A character with more skills than you still has more things they want to train. (open ended)

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Originally posted by AgtSmith
It is also accurate to say that if you have a player who starts today and one that starts a month or two later that the player who started later will never catch up to the player that started earlier as the skills earned are based not of accomplishment or play time but character time. 

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not necessarily true, but lets just ignore stats, implants and optimized choices but lets say you are correct. So what? What is it that is about this esoteric value of skill points that bothers you? is that what you want to compete on, your skill point total? really? can't say i want to play your game. but hell if you really want to, make a trade character, excel at it over a few months and buy yourself a high sp total character with isk. perfectly allowed in the EULA. there you go, you 'win' at EVE.

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Originally posted by AgtSmith
That statement only serves to highlight that condition in saying that it is unfair that a sub'd player doesn't catch up to and unsub'd player, CCPs own words call that an unfair advantage. 

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the fairness comes into the fact that ghost training allowed the farming of cheap high sp alts. Specialization does play a significant role in character development. A tightly focused alt can make a big difference. You can still make one, but now you need to have an active account to do it.

simply put, it was the massive production of low sp alts that was unfair.

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Originally posted by AgtSmith
I am not saying it breaks the game, but come on - it is a major impediment to players started now verse those who have been playing any length of time.

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This is the sentiment I disagree with the most. You believe it limits you, that it limits your opportunities. That it limits your fun. you could specialize and in most areas and easily be able to compete. Those few areas where you couldn't you need to have helped build and develop trust from others over years in order to have the support you need to be able to actually fly those ships.

Originally posted by AgtSmith

I played long enough, admitingly some time ago, to know how the system works and it is fair to say that time sub'd equals more skills, period.  It is also accurate to say that if you have a player who starts today and one that starts a month or two later that the player who started later will never catch up to the player that started earlier as the skills earned are based not of accomplishment or play time but character time.  That statement only serves to highlight that condition in saying that it is unfair that a sub'd player doesn't catch up to and unsub'd player, CCPs own words call that an unfair advantage.  I am not saying it breaks the game, but come on - it is a major impediment to players started now verse those who have been playing any length of time.

 

I think the change is a good one (as it does at least let active accounts catch up to inactive ones) but I just find the stated reasoning from CCP ironic as they unwittingly confirm one of the biggest issues people have in coming late to the game.

 

Originally posted by Kyleran 

And lets cut to the chase about the elimination of ghost training. Forget the excuses, CCP wanted to make more money, and elimination of Ghost training seems to have accomplished exactly that.  

On this much we agree.

As a new player this change was def much needed, what this change meant is that if I continue to Sub to EVE I can eventually catch on to some players, with the ghost training it means the first guy to create a character in EVE will always be  ahead of everyone, even if he decides not to play. 

Originally posted by Taram

Are you guys really arguing over a change that occurred 8 months ago still?

Yeah :)

Still waiting on the reply to my questions though. That is my main interest in this thread. (But maybe I should let it go.)

Originally posted by AgtSmith

 

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A long overdue and much needed change will be put in place with the Wednesday, 15 October 2008 patch. Ghost Training, the continuous skill gain on accounts in an inactive or expired state - will no longer function after Wednesday, 15 October 2008. This practice upsets the balance of the game, and capsuleers who actively put their time and energy into working on their characters will no longer be unfairly affected by those few who have not.

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Not an EVE player though thinking of trying a trial just for something other than a damn fantasy MMO, but this caught my eye and might have turned me off because it is so hypocritical.  If they are saying that people levelling up in the time spent = power sense does negatively affect others then that is the best argument to never try this game since you can never ever catch up to most of the players and big corps.

There is no need to "catch up". Why would there be?

Originally posted by rav3n2

Originally posted by AgtSmith

I played long enough, admitingly some time ago, to know how the system works and it is fair to say that time sub'd equals more skills, period.  It is also accurate to say that if you have a player who starts today and one that starts a month or two later that the player who started later will never catch up to the player that started earlier as the skills earned are based not of accomplishment or play time but character time.  That statement only serves to highlight that condition in saying that it is unfair that a sub'd player doesn't catch up to and unsub'd player, CCPs own words call that an unfair advantage.  I am not saying it breaks the game, but come on - it is a major impediment to players started now verse those who have been playing any length of time.

 

I think the change is a good one (as it does at least let active accounts catch up to inactive ones) but I just find the stated reasoning from CCP ironic as they unwittingly confirm one of the biggest issues people have in coming late to the game.

 

Originally posted by Kyleran 

And lets cut to the chase about the elimination of ghost training. Forget the excuses, CCP wanted to make more money, and elimination of Ghost training seems to have accomplished exactly that.  

On this much we agree.

 

 

As a new player this change was def much needed, what this change meant is that if I continue to Sub to EVE I can eventually catch on to some players, with the ghost training it means the first guy to create a character in EVE will always be  ahead of everyone, even if he decides not to play. 

It amazes me that people are still whining because they can't continue to advance in the game EVEN WHEN THEY STOP PAYING FOR THE SUBSCRIPTION.

I never used ghost training even when it was possible because it was obviously unethical to me- an exploitation of a loophole.

You people that suspended your account while you trained BS V should be happy CCP kept the loophole open as long as they did.. hell, I'd like to see them take those skillpoints BACK from you whining little girls.

Grow up. Demonstrate that you possess some balls.  Check into reality.  "Have a bunch of free stuff" is a lousy business model, and quite frankly I want CCP to do well because they are apparently the only game developers out there with the guts to stand behind a brilliant hardcore game.

All you people whining about ghost training post your ingame character name and location so the rest of us can hunt you down and pod you repeatedly until you grow up.

Ghost training, Is that were pod pilots from the past come back from the grave too share there greatest combat secrets?

Just curious :)

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Originally posted by Enkindu
It amazes me that people are still whining because they can't continue to advance in the game EVEN WHEN THEY STOP PAYING FOR THE SUBSCRIPTION.
I never used ghost training even when it was possible because it was obviously unethical to me- an exploitation of a loophole.
You people that suspended your account while you trained BS V should be happy CCP kept the loophole open as long as they did.. hell, I'd like to see them take those skillpoints BACK from you whining little girls.

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No loophole. CCP was aware of this functionality since launch, they even presented 'ghost training' as a feature on their website.

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by Enkindu
It amazes me that people are still whining because they can't continue to advance in the game EVEN WHEN THEY STOP PAYING FOR THE SUBSCRIPTION.
I never used ghost training even when it was possible because it was obviously unethical to me- an exploitation of a loophole.
You people that suspended your account while you trained BS V should be happy CCP kept the loophole open as long as they did.. hell, I'd like to see them take those skillpoints BACK from you whining little girls.

---

 

No loophole. CCP was aware of this functionality since launch, they even presented 'ghost training' as a feature on their website.

Yes, clearly it makes sense that people were able to advance their characters for long periods of time in the game without paying a CENT.

Give me a break.

I knew that this practice worked just like everyone else did but the SLEAZINESS of it was self evident to me.  I personally feel uneasy taking something that I'm not paying for.

Maybe that's why the whole world is going into the toilet these days.. people have COMPLETELY lost touch with any personal code of ethics.  People refuse to take a self inventory and do the right thing simply because it is the right thing to do.

You got a "freebie" for a long time.  Do you say "thanks, that was great while it lasted?"

No.

"Cry.. piss.. moan..wail..whine.. this is unfair!"

You people make me sick.  You really do.  When I see evidence of a complete lack of a moral compass in people like this at least it helps me understand why the human race is apparently crippled by selfishness and stupidity.

Well said Enkindu. 

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Originally posted by Enkindu
Yes, clearly it makes sense that people were able to advance their characters for long periods of time in the game without paying a CENT.
Give me a break.
I knew that this practice worked just like everyone else did but the SLEAZINESS of it was self evident to me.  I personally feel uneasy taking something that I'm not paying for.
Maybe that's why the whole world is going into the toilet these days.. people have COMPLETELY lost touch with any personal code of ethics.  People refuse to take a self inventory and do the right thing simply because it is the right thing to do.
You got a "freebie" for a long time.  Do you say "thanks, that was great while it lasted?"
No.
"Cry.. piss.. moan..wail..whine.. this is unfair!"
You people make me sick.  You really do.  When I see evidence of a complete lack of a moral compass in people like this at least it helps me understand why the human race is apparently crippled by selfishness and stupidity.

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This is really absurd, ridiculous and pathetic. Get the facts right, first.

I paid 15$ to CCP and they tell me I can keep my char training after the subscripton period has ended and then come back freely any time.
I do so, because that's what I paid for - according to CCP. What's immoral about it? I use the service I paid for, that was a clear deal there.

Then, after 5 years, CCP comes and deny that this deal was ever made, using very cheap excuses and claiming the 'ghost training' was never intened and being unfair? How it can be unfair when it was CCP itself promoting this feature as a part of their very own product?
And those lies you find moral?!

If anything goes down the toilet it is the CCP...you can smell it already.

So follow your own advice and stop crying, because it is only you doing so here.

The only one crying around here is you Gdem. That's all you have been doing aorund here the last couple of months. Seriously man if you are that pissed at CCP just leave. No one is forcing you to stay, just leave. You are pissed off over petty shit for god knows what reason and you come here to spew it, get over it and yourself and move on.

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Originally posted by Lordmonkus
The only one crying around here is you Gdem. That's all you have been doing aorund here the last couple of months. Seriously man if you are that pissed at CCP just leave. No one is forcing you to stay, just leave. You are pissed off over petty shit for god knows what reason and you come here to spew it, get over it and yourself and move on.

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Typical reply of Lordmonkus - blind fanboism, no arguments, overreacting, unconstructive, personal attacks only...

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by Lordmonkus
The only one crying around here is you Gdem. That's all you have been doing aorund here the last couple of months. Seriously man if you are that pissed at CCP just leave. No one is forcing you to stay, just leave. You are pissed off over petty shit for god knows what reason and you come here to spew it, get over it and yourself and move on.

---

 

Typical reply of Lordmonkus - blind fanboism, no arguments, overreacting, unconstructive, personal attacks only...

whats there to argue? And i dont see any personal attacks in that post. If you have a problem with ghost training being removed .... and everything else ccp does ..... then leave the game and quit bitching.

I feel almost bad about this....  but I'm starting to enjoy the littany of loathing coming from the "eve haters" that frequent this board.

I happen to love the game.  It's  doing extremely well, continues to grow, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's going strong 5 years from now.

It is the gold standard for complexity and intensity in modern online gaming, and even the people bashing it know this.

Here's the thing: the opposite of love isn't hate.. it's indifference.  You guys give me a chuckle every time you log in to spout off about how bad Eve is... because everytime you do you PROVE that you have enough emotional investment in the game to still CARE.  It really makes you look like the angry dude that is still mad at the girl that dumped him.

See, I myself find games like wow and lotro dreadfully boring... I tried them, they weren't for me, and I left them behind.  Zero emotional attachment, they just weren't for me.

Here however there is SOMETHING keeping these people posting in the eve forum about how much the game sucks.  It's like they wanted REALLY BAD to be part of the game but it didn't work out, and now they are bitter.  If you think about it you'll find it funny and a bit sad.  I Don't really care if people don't get it/ don't like it.. it's a free world, plenty of other stuff to do.

But from now on KNOW that I will be looking forward to your "scorned lover" anti-eve posts purely for the humor value.

So BRING IT ON!

By the way, Gdem please show me documentation that anything official from CCP ever invited you to "train your character for free." 

You ever run a business or do any kind of management?  I've been playing since 11/2004 and I don't ever recall an invitation like that from CCP.  It's an obvious exploit and unethical. No crying going on here, I'm just calling you out.  No need to get upset, just move along.

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Originally posted by Enkindu
By the way, Gdem please show me documentation that anything official from CCP ever invited you to "train your character for free." 
You ever run a business or do any kind of management?  I've been playing since 11/2004 and I don't ever recall an invitation like that from CCP.  It's an obvious exploit and unethical. No crying going on here, I'm just calling you out.  No need to get upset, just move along.

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Look here:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=896318

For everyone who is interested in the game background and playing for some time it is a known fact - we all have seen that guide. I hope someone made a copy of that guide and you might find it posted somewhere...
The old player guide mysteriously disappeared:
http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g615.asp

I am not bashing on EVE, I am bashing on people who talk about something without knowing basics related to the issue.

Yeah, talk about ethics...shssss...

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Originally posted by Lordmonkus
I loved having the ghost training it was nice but I fully understand why CCP cut it out. That reason was that too many people were levelling up characters and selling them but with efficient planned levelling with the ghost training you could level a guy really far without paying much money if any if you paid for them with time codes and then those characters were being solf off for real money. This is why it was removed and I fully support it, though I do miss it myself for when I needed a short break from Eve. This wasn't a problem for years since Eve was still a very small game. Now Eve is getting big and the market is there and CCP had to do something.

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This is a real gem, lol. You really have absolutely no clue what you talk about.

Current mechanics makes alt training easier than ever.

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by Lordmonkus
I loved having the ghost training it was nice but I fully understand why CCP cut it out. That reason was that too many people were levelling up characters and selling them but with efficient planned levelling with the ghost training you could level a guy really far without paying much money if any if you paid for them with time codes and then those characters were being solf off for real money. This is why it was removed and I fully support it, though I do miss it myself for when I needed a short break from Eve. This wasn't a problem for years since Eve was still a very small game. Now Eve is getting big and the market is there and CCP had to do something.

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This is a real gem, lol. You really have absolutely no clue what you talk about.

Current mechanics makes alt training easier than ever.

His point was it was cheaper, not easier... way to readbeforepost there mate >_> .

His point was that people used/exploited it to far, and in to big numbers for CCP to look the other way.

/continue rant thread

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Originally posted by fagercraft
His point was it was cheaper, not easier... way to readbeforepost there mate >_> .
His point was that people used/exploited it to far, and in to big numbers for CCP to look the other way.
 
/continue rant thread

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Clarification for those who refuse to use the round thing sitting on their neck:

It is easier now - skill points and money wise.

Originally posted by Enkindu

By the way, Gdem please show me documentation that anything official from CCP ever invited you to "train your character for free." 

You ever run a business or do any kind of management?  I've been playing since 11/2004 and I don't ever recall an invitation like that from CCP.  It's an obvious exploit and unethical. No crying going on here, I'm just calling you out.  No need to get upset, just move along.

welp, all these other games have rested experience.  unsubbed training was eve's version of rested experience.

or do we just ignore what other mmos offer; because we're blind fanbois and anything ccp desires to do is fine?

maybe ccp should remove the ability to attack mining ships?  maybe ccp should remove the ability to lock onto targets?  i mean, these also are stated features in the game, amirite?

unsubbed training must be about the only unethical exploit in a game which was touted for like 5 years as a feature.

for playing since 2004, you sure don't seem to know much about this topic.