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Originally posted by blueturtle13 Liking or disliking blizzard old games is subjective. I enjoyed them and last I looked the blizzard games in those genres didnt totally destroy those genres. Actually the majority of those Devs left because they wanted to make WoW play Over battle.net like Diablo. They wanted a total Alliance V horde pvp experience not some Pve newb game. I already know WoW is for casuals, I already know theres not much to Wow and its designed for the quick gaming then go crowd. MMOs in general weren;t designed like that. WoW is nothing but a single player game with a chat box and at endgame it becomes a 3d Diablo dungeon crwaler game that should be f2p imo. They have there own vision, it doesnt mean their vision didnt screw the genre and make the entire damn thing De-evolve!
WOW didnt do that either. Prove they have. There are a ton of WOW type features in alot of games. There are also alot of things in other mmo's in WOW. Whats the point? WOW is 5 years old. AOC was different enough, took them awhile but the game is a year old and perhaps getting close to the game the players thought it to be at launch. AO will get a facelift which might draw alot more people in to help it. The mighty Bioware's mmo. Also Star Trek online. Jumpgate. Fallout fans will dig Fallen Earth. Guild Wars 2 will be coming out. MO looks interesting. I mean the landscape just does not look that bleak to me. Maybe I am more of an optimist. =/ Its taken a long time for the genre to even try to recover. Also AoC is a crappy game, im sorry but the Devs lied to us and tbh I dont want to get into how freaking hopeless and terrible AoC is. By the time Bioware releases its game WoW will have been out 7+ years since WoWs servers opened the entire genres focus has been on ease of play and casually friendly mechanics. How much more proff do you need? just look at the genre. UO, EQ, AC, DAoC, SWG, Eve all much more then WoW will ever be. The OP asked what was MY biggest MMO history Letdown. It was the moment MMOs shifted into the nebie casually friendly mess and it was all started with WoW. The genre had great potential and because of WoW we've had to wait more then 5 years just to get games that still suck worse then older MMOs before wow. WoW De-evolved the entire genre. Playing: EvE, Ryzom |
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In your Opinion |
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Originally posted by blueturtle13
This entire forum is Opinion. We have no facts here. its just a discussion forum lol.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom |
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Originally posted by JGMIII I disagree... |
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Originally posted by JGMIII That is where you are incorrect, because the shift to casual solo friendly gameplay started long before warcraft came out. DAOC was already making the movement towards solo casual friend gameplay with their quest driven leveling system. City of heroes did the same thing. Star wars galaxies, EQ2, guild wars, horizons, AC2 were all far more casual and solo friendly than earlier games were. The change was very much underway prior to wows release. There are a lot of games that were already on the path to doing that and just because you cannot acknowledge this doesn't make warcraft the cause of all this. Did one game really de-evolved the genre or is it the result of so many terribly rushed incomplete games that failed to deliver a good non-casual experience.
What you are upset about is that one game capitalized on that momentum while other companies have failed to make a compelling product for other play styles. That is not the fault of blizzard. They cannot somehow force other companies to make good games just like they can't force them to make bad games. Try laying some blame where it is deserved. |
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Originally posted by Daffid011 That is where you are incorrect, because the shift to casual solo friendly gameplay started long before warcraft came out. DAOC was already making the movement towards solo casual friend gameplay with their quest driven leveling system. City of heroes did the same thing. Star wars galaxies, EQ2, guild wars, horizons, AC2 were all far more casual and solo friendly than earlier games were. The change was very much underway prior to wows release. There are a lot of games that were already on the path to doing that and just because you cannot acknowledge this doesn't make warcraft the cause of all this. Did one game really de-evolved the genre or is it the result of so many terribly rushed incomplete games that failed to deliver a good non-casual experience.
What you are upset about is that one game capitalized on that momentum while other companies have failed to make a compelling product for other play styles. That is not the fault of blizzard. They cannot somehow force other companies to make good games just like they can't force them to make bad games. Try laying some blame where it is deserved. Well said. Totally on point. |
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Didn't read thread, way too long. But the biggest let down for me was the cancellation of WISH. |
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Originally posted by lornphoenix I disagree...
Still too instanced but the lack of content isnt an issue anymore. |
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Originally posted by JGMIII Its not a PoS because its popular Its a PoS because its shit! I call it like I see it man. WoW is a simplified version of MMos before it, nothing innovative about WoW at all. THey stripped what little challenge the game had and made it a casual friendly, souless Item grinder. What pisses me off is how awesome Blizzards other games were and how much of a De-Evolution WoW is compared to other MMos before it. Warcraft Rts, Lost Viking, blackthorne, Starcraft, Diablo all awesome Wtf happened with WoW??? I think the fact that half the dev team left before WoWs release isthe reason WoW is such a simple bastard game today. im sure those quality Devs invisioned a much more enjoyable, deep and challenging game then what Romper room MMO turned into.
Nothing innovative about any of Blizzard's games. I don't understand the love that people had for Diablo. Nothing but a clickfest. The only RPG elements were the fact it was fantasy and had levels. Nothing remotely resembling a story, real character development, challenging gameplay, or any of the other elements I expect from a RPG. And funny you call WoW a souless item grinder when the actual game of Diable takes a few hours to finish with the only replay value being looking for loot.
Warcraft RTS was a dumbed down game compared to Dune 2, the true father of RTS games. |
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Originally posted by blueturtle13 Well said. Totally on point. Jesus you will agree with anything pro WoW or Pro themepark. Whats well said? theres a big difference between a game letting players solo quests with a big XP disadvantage and letting an entire game be solo friendly to the end. To the games he brought up.... Swg and EQ2 were changed to meet WoWs success other games that tried to be newb friendly and Ezmode failed. You bring up a Niche Superhero game? Guild wars? come on! I don't care that people like WoW I care that WoW influenced the entire genre in a negative way. There is no game to blame other then WoW, it turned the genre to shit. These guys got so exicted about making the game disney and making all this money that they never really sat down and though if they should make a game that would fuck the genre. Again the OP asked when the biggest let down in MMO history went down and for me it was the day WoW changed the genre. You wanna blame the games that followed? whatever. Lets say we're in a sci-fi time travel movie and your mission was to stop MMOs from becoming Easy, casual friendly games, What game would you go and stop from being Made? You wouldn't go to 10 freaking newb games made after wow you would delete WoW off the harddrives of the dudes and blizzard and when returning You would find Lotro more like AC, WAR more like DAoC, EQ2 basically EQ with better graphics, AoC modeled after AO. SWG would have never changed. Everything would be better. This is why I selected WoW as the let down.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom |
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Originally posted by Raknar
Nothing innovative about any of Blizzard's games. I don't understand the love that people had for Diablo. Nothing but a clickfest. The only RPG elements were the fact it was fantasy and had levels. Nothing remotely resembling a story, real character development, challenging gameplay, or any of the other elements I expect from a RPG. And funny you call WoW a souless item grinder when the actual game of Diable takes a few hours to finish with the only replay value being looking for loot.
Warcraft RTS was a dumbed down game compared to Dune 2, the true father of RTS games. But did those blizzard games change the genres they were in? They were easier to play but not retard proof.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom |
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Originally posted by JGMIII Liking or disliking blizzard old games is subjective. I enjoyed them and last I looked the blizzard games in those genres didnt totally destroy those genres. Actually the majority of those Devs left because they wanted to make WoW play Over battle.net like Diablo. They wanted a total Alliance V horde pvp experience not some Pve newb game. I already know WoW is for casuals, I already know theres not much to Wow and its designed for the quick gaming then go crowd. MMOs in general weren;t designed like that. WoW is nothing but a single player game with a chat box and at endgame it becomes a 3d Diablo dungeon crwaler game that should be f2p imo. They have there own vision, it doesnt mean their vision didnt screw the genre and make the entire damn thing De-evolve!
WOW didnt do that either. Prove they have. There are a ton of WOW type features in alot of games. There are also alot of things in other mmo's in WOW. Whats the point? WOW is 5 years old. AOC was different enough, took them awhile but the game is a year old and perhaps getting close to the game the players thought it to be at launch. AO will get a facelift which might draw alot more people in to help it. The mighty Bioware's mmo. Also Star Trek online. Jumpgate. Fallout fans will dig Fallen Earth. Guild Wars 2 will be coming out. MO looks interesting. I mean the landscape just does not look that bleak to me. Maybe I am more of an optimist. =/ Its taken a long time for the genre to even try to recover. Also AoC is a crappy game, im sorry but the Devs lied to us and tbh I dont want to get into how freaking hopeless and terrible AoC is. By the time Bioware releases its game WoW will have been out 7+ years since WoWs servers opened the entire genres focus has been on ease of play and casually friendly mechanics. How much more proff do you need? just look at the genre. UO, EQ, AC, DAoC, SWG, Eve all much more then WoW will ever be. The OP asked what was MY biggest MMO history Letdown. It was the moment MMOs shifted into the nebie casually friendly mess and it was all started with WoW. The genre had great potential and because of WoW we've had to wait more then 5 years just to get games that still suck worse then older MMOs before wow. WoW De-evolved the entire genre.
WoW certainly changed the genre. I wouldnt go as far as saying that it devolved it, because if anything, WoW helped MMORPGs more than harmed them. First and foremost, it expanded the MMO market substantially, and I am very sure than games like EvE Online would not have had their success hadnt WoW introduced its RTS fanbase such as myself to the genre. After playing the game since January 2005, I have to say that Im pretty much over the game and its formula, but It'd be pretty shortsighted to say that WoW has not had major contributions in EVOLVING the genre: You may not like the content and the formula, but you can hardly argue that w/e content is in WoW is very well designed and has an excellent polish(Ulduar, Phasing technology, vehicule mechanics all come to mind here). I however, also agree that for the short term, WoW had a negative impact on MMOs in general, and here is where WoW clones come to mind. To think that copying the same formula would cause lighting to strike twice was pretty dumb from the devs, but hopefully the trend is over now, and more original games will be introduced (MO, STO, etc...) On topic, the biggest letdown for me was Darkfall. The rules of Debate are really simple; once you have to stoop to insults instead of facts, logic, or reason to try and win your argument, you've lost. |
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Originally posted by Spoonpott
WOW didnt do that either. Prove they have. There are a ton of WOW type features in alot of games. There are also alot of things in other mmo's in WOW. Whats the point? WOW is 5 years old. AOC was different enough, took them awhile but the game is a year old and perhaps getting close to the game the players thought it to be at launch. AO will get a facelift which might draw alot more people in to help it. The mighty Bioware's mmo. Also Star Trek online. Jumpgate. Fallout fans will dig Fallen Earth. Guild Wars 2 will be coming out. MO looks interesting. I mean the landscape just does not look that bleak to me. Maybe I am more of an optimist. =/ Its taken a long time for the genre to even try to recover. Also AoC is a crappy game, im sorry but the Devs lied to us and tbh I dont want to get into how freaking hopeless and terrible AoC is. By the time Bioware releases its game WoW will have been out 7+ years since WoWs servers opened the entire genres focus has been on ease of play and casually friendly mechanics. How much more proff do you need? just look at the genre. UO, EQ, AC, DAoC, SWG, Eve all much more then WoW will ever be. The OP asked what was MY biggest MMO history Letdown. It was the moment MMOs shifted into the nebie casually friendly mess and it was all started with WoW. The genre had great potential and because of WoW we've had to wait more then 5 years just to get games that still suck worse then older MMOs before wow. WoW De-evolved the entire genre.
WoW certainly changed the genre. I wouldnt go as far as saying that it devolved it, because if anything, WoW helped MMORPGs more than harmed them. First and foremost, it expanded the MMO market substantially, and I am very sure than games like EvE Online would not have had their success hadnt WoW introduced its RTS fanbase such as myself to the genre. After playing the game since January 2005, I have to say that Im pretty much over the game and its formula, but It'd be pretty shortsighted to say that WoW has not had major contributions in EVOLVING the genre: You may not like the content and the formula, but you can hardly argue that w/e content is in WoW is very well designed and has an excellent polish(Ulduar, Phasing technology, vehicule mechanics all come to mind here). I however, also agree that for the short term, WoW had a negative impact on MMOs in general, and here is where WoW clones come to mind. To think that copying the same formula would cause lighting to strike twice was pretty dumb from the devs, but hopefully the trend is over now, and more original games will be introduced (MO, STO, etc...) On topic, the biggest letdown for me was Darkfall. I actually liked your post. I would like to point out that Phasing is only personal instancing of a quest hub and we all know instancing in MMOs is freaking lame. the vehicles in WoW all move like boats so that's fail and Uldar is no better then any of the raid content in EQ. good post though.
Edit: when I say it changed the genre I mostly speak of mechanics and games becoming easier. I dont really care how many people the game brought in considering most of those people actually want easy games. Playing: EvE, Ryzom |
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Originally posted by JGMIII I actually liked your post. I would like to point out that Phasing is only personal instancing of a quest hub and we all know instancing in MMOs is freaking lame. the vehicles in WoW all move like boats so that's fail and Uldar is no better then any of the raid content in EQ. good post though.
Edit: when I say it changed the genre I mostly speak of mechanics and games becoming easier. I dont really care how many people the game brought in considering most of those people actually want easy games.
Phasing is NOT personal instancing of a quest hub. That was a variant seen in TBC. You don't even know what phasing in WotLK really is. That's very clear. Blizzard stated that the old content of Wow will be massively phased for advanced characters in future expansions. It allows to use and revisit old content in a complete new context. And mounted combat and anti air combat as seen in Ulduar I didn't see in EQ either. ... Of course Ulduar is 10 times better in intelligent boss fights than the standard tank/spank fights you got in old / old unpolished EQ.
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Originally posted by JGMIII
WOW didnt do that either. Prove they have. There are a ton of WOW type features in alot of games. There are also alot of things in other mmo's in WOW. Whats the point? WOW is 5 years old. AOC was different enough, took them awhile but the game is a year old and perhaps getting close to the game the players thought it to be at launch. AO will get a facelift which might draw alot more people in to help it. The mighty Bioware's mmo. Also Star Trek online. Jumpgate. Fallout fans will dig Fallen Earth. Guild Wars 2 will be coming out. MO looks interesting. I mean the landscape just does not look that bleak to me. Maybe I am more of an optimist. =/ Its taken a long time for the genre to even try to recover. Also AoC is a crappy game, im sorry but the Devs lied to us and tbh I dont want to get into how freaking hopeless and terrible AoC is. By the time Bioware releases its game WoW will have been out 7+ years since WoWs servers opened the entire genres focus has been on ease of play and casually friendly mechanics. How much more proff do you need? just look at the genre. UO, EQ, AC, DAoC, SWG, Eve all much more then WoW will ever be. The OP asked what was MY biggest MMO history Letdown. It was the moment MMOs shifted into the nebie casually friendly mess and it was all started with WoW. The genre had great potential and because of WoW we've had to wait more then 5 years just to get games that still suck worse then older MMOs before wow. WoW De-evolved the entire genre.
WoW certainly changed the genre. I wouldnt go as far as saying that it devolved it, because if anything, WoW helped MMORPGs more than harmed them. First and foremost, it expanded the MMO market substantially, and I am very sure than games like EvE Online would not have had their success hadnt WoW introduced its RTS fanbase such as myself to the genre. After playing the game since January 2005, I have to say that Im pretty much over the game and its formula, but It'd be pretty shortsighted to say that WoW has not had major contributions in EVOLVING the genre: You may not like the content and the formula, but you can hardly argue that w/e content is in WoW is very well designed and has an excellent polish(Ulduar, Phasing technology, vehicule mechanics all come to mind here). I however, also agree that for the short term, WoW had a negative impact on MMOs in general, and here is where WoW clones come to mind. To think that copying the same formula would cause lighting to strike twice was pretty dumb from the devs, but hopefully the trend is over now, and more original games will be introduced (MO, STO, etc...) On topic, the biggest letdown for me was Darkfall. I actually liked your post. I would like to point out that Phasing is only personal instancing of a quest hub and we all know instancing in MMOs is freaking lame. the vehicles in WoW all move like boats so that's fail and Uldar is no better then any of the raid content in EQ. good post though.
Edit: when I say it changed the genre I mostly speak of mechanics and games becoming easier. I dont really care how many people the game brought in considering most of those people actually want easy games.
I am not saying their phasing is perfect, I'm merely stating that it is an innovative feature, that will most probably be taken, polished and integrated in new MMOs in the future. Just look at it this way, it brings a new RP value to MMOs, a new way of storytelling, where your (pve) actions do have consequences on the environment around you. Also, not all their phasing is instanced, sometimes you might be standing next to your friend, and you see a particular thing, but he sees another. Im not saying its perfect, Im just saying it is innovative, it is creative, and it is something I hope to see evolve in the genre. About games becoming easier, I would say this is a side-effect of devs trying to mimic the WoW formula. I am optimistic that in the long run, blizzard will be remembered as the company who made MMOs more accessible, not necessarly easier. The rules of Debate are really simple; once you have to stoop to insults instead of facts, logic, or reason to try and win your argument, you've lost. |
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Originally posted by JGMIII
What exactly is easier about wow? Please explain it without littering your post by calling people retards or children, because honestly when you do that it makes your opinions shallow and unbelievable. If you have to insult millions of people or baselessly generalize them to validate your views, then you are nothing short of failing to have a valid opinion.
Does a game need extreme death penalities? Hard to understaind user interfaces? Does requires 10 times more experience make something difficult? What is it that makes other games "hard", because I bet you can't name one fantasy mmo that I couldn't drop a hundred wow players in and they would have an equal amount of success in. That is, if they are good in wow they will be good in X game, just like if they suck in wow they will suck in another game. What you are doing is looking for a scape goat to blame for the lack of a decent non-casual friendly game. You want to ignore years of gaming evolution towards more casual and solo friendly gameplay and lay the entire blame for it at the doorsteps of one game. It is not blizzards fault that so many other companies have failed to deliver a non-casual friendly game. It isn't for a lack of trying either, because many have. You want to blame blizzard for the mess that resulted from so many horrible game releases, fine. Lets just run around giving companies "Nice try" second place ribbons so that no one loses. Obviously the problem is the company the succeeds and we should ignore those that fail, because we can blame it on someone else.
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Some of the MMOGs that have been big let downs for me include:
Vanguard:SoH Tabula Rasa UO2 (Or cancellation of release plans) Horizons
I'm sure there are more, but that's all I got off the top of my head right now... |
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1) WAR - How Mythic could go from DAoC to that is beyond me.... 2) DDO - Only Turbine could take a slam dunk game and turn it into poo.. 3) AOC - Some good ideas that were never implemented and too many instances 4) Vanguard - Oh for a true successor to EQ but way too many bugs 5) Darkfall - Hopeing for a sandbox, instead we got a sandbox made of rotten wood without any sand, just some broken shards of glass
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SWG - NGE |
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LOTRO I was looking forward to it since hearing about it. Sadly, it was a huge upset for me. Turbine FAILS!! LOL "Kings of typos" ^^ EDIT: typo... AKA "Hater of haters" |
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Originally posted by Sneakers05
Actually, Vanguard remains a success in it's own way even today -- whether or not you liked the game. The biggest let down I've ever felt in an MMO was directly tied to the people playing the game (see def: a**hats). |
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I would have to go with Vanguard and Tabula Rasa both were suppose to be great and well.. neither were in my opinion. Playing: Aion |
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Originally posted by Daffid011
What exactly is easier about wow? Please explain it without littering your post by calling people retards or children, because honestly when you do that it makes your opinions shallow and unbelievable. If you have to insult millions of people or baselessly generalize them to validate your views, then you are nothing short of failing to have a valid opinion.
Does a game need extreme death penalities? Hard to understaind user interfaces? Does requires 10 times more experience make something difficult? What is it that makes other games "hard", because I bet you can't name one fantasy mmo that I couldn't drop a hundred wow players in and they would have an equal amount of success in. That is, if they are good in wow they will be good in X game, just like if they suck in wow they will suck in another game. What you are doing is looking for a scape goat to blame for the lack of a decent non-casual friendly game. You want to ignore years of gaming evolution towards more casual and solo friendly gameplay and lay the entire blame for it at the doorsteps of one game. It is not blizzards fault that so many other companies have failed to deliver a non-casual friendly game. It isn't for a lack of trying either, because many have. You want to blame blizzard for the mess that resulted from so many horrible game releases, fine. Lets just run around giving companies "Nice try" second place ribbons so that no one loses. Obviously the problem is the company the succeeds and we should ignore those that fail, because we can blame it on someone else.
I could go on and on and list 20+ ways WoW is easy but I will personally bring up the main one that effected me. For me Other then character progressions and customization (both are very limited in WoW) I enjoy Social aspects of my MMOs. I like that community feeling where everyone knows one another and everyone needs each other. Well first WoW designed a game world that was totally soloable, killing the need for groups while leveling. Why will people group if you can easily do everything solo and get mroe loot and gold. They also added in a penalty to grouping you get less XP in a group so right there the entire player base became greedy and anti-social. They made mobs easy, questing easy and basically made everyone that enjoyed grouping suffer a penalty. This killed hunting in groups, this killed group questing, socializing and RP all with that one decision. And the rest of the genre followed.
To the rest of your post, no I dont think Advance UIs and mechanics that just make thing hard for no reason is good either. I;ve never been the one to like MMOs without maps, ive never attacked WoW for a mod friendly UI, I like that stuff. And no i dont think deep MMos failed so i wouldnt be pissed about WoW. I enjoy the two games I play Atm very much (Eve and Ryzom). Anyway, if the OP asked me what was my top ten bigest let downs I would start with WoW, then move to Swg, eq2 and on and on so no I dont totally remove responsibility from those other lame games that released. I only had the choice of One and for me to pick one I would have to select the game that started the movement and became mainstream for it.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom |
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so many to choose from. i'll go with a tie: WAR and vanguard. there was unreasonable amounts of hype for both of these games. |
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Dragon Empire, Dark and Light, EQII, SWG NGE, Shadowbane Hard to pick between those. There are probably a few others (Wish maybe) that I have forgotten. Largest impact to me was EQII and SWG NGE. Between those I'd pick EQII. Should have been a monster hit! (no pun intended).
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