Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by Ginkeq

ow can you have some sort of adventure in a game like WoW?  It's too newbie friendly.  I mean, the quest givers literally tell you how to level to 80, you just go back and forth for 10-20 days straight, wow, what an exciting adventure that is, one without risk or challenge.

 

Thatis not the problem of being newbie friendly, someone is not a newbie 5 levels under cap. A game should have a good experience for the new players, and then turn more and more challenging.

As for the endgame in MMOs I agree. Maybe a game without levels or for that matter levelcaps would be more intresting (yeah I never played Eve) for once you reach max level and done some raiding and possibly sieging it gets boring fast.

A MMO is supposed to be without an end, but you have to grind the same things without getting so much for it in the endgame. There should be a way to make things more intresting, characters should continue to grow as long as you play them, even if the pace get's slower and slower.

I dunno about being newbie friendly.  When I played my first MMO, they gave me a rusty club and a real cheap tunic.  That is all there was.  Want to figure something out? You have to ask other players. When things are too newbie friendly they reveal too much about the game and make things too obvious & predictable.

I don't think MMOs should have diminishing returns,  rather they should allow you to keep advancing.  They can just make the content extremely difficult.   Some guilds will be able to go far, some won't be able to do shit.  But that is the challenge of MMOs.  I think the problem with WoW is too many guilds are able to do the end-game content now.  There was a time in WoWs history when people couldn't do MC.  My guild was in AQ40 trying to do twin emps and other guilds were stuck on MC trash mobs.  

Now everyone can do just about anything in the game.  And the PvP system is so horrible you can find 2 newbies with a certain class combo and they will be top ranked..  God its horrible

Originally posted by JGMIII

Todays community isnt really built for Hardcore play like you guys experience on SZ, Games like DF, MO, ER are timid in comparison. Safe zones, tons of quests and stuff like that are what these guys want.

It needs balance.  There needs to be reasonably safe areas for people who want to be reasonably safe and extremely unsafe areas for people who want to be extremely unsafe and those areas need to be entirely separate without any bleedover.  If you want to be safe, you should never be required to venture out into the unsafe areas.  You might get XP and loot slower in safe areas, you might seriously lag behind the unsafe players, but it should be possible to get from A to B without having your ass handed to you by uber-twinked PvPers who are just out to kill for the hell of it.

The problem for some people is ...

Wow in its (present) end game has some sandbox elements and some people can't handle this.

Should I make me a motorbike? What about crafting some hi end weapon system and sell them on the AH with a nice profit?

Or will I go for that Justicar PvP title or other achievement titles?

Some people can't handle that freedom at the end game (hanging on to raiding) and ignore 95% of the end game options.

That's the problem

I hate leveling. Ever since i started eve i find it hard to play any level based games because i am just not lured by the carrot on a stick mechanic that is leveling, like i used to be. TBH i would perfer a game that starts you off at the end game, so half of the content in the game isn't obsolete when you reach that max level like in level based games. It's one of the reasons why i look forward to the secret world.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

The problem for some people is ...

Wow in its (present) end game has some sandbox elements and some people can't handle this.

Should I make me a motorbike? What about crafting some hi end weapon system and sell them on the AH with a nice profit?

Or will I go for that Justicar PvP title or other achievement titles?

Some people can't handle that freedom at the end game (hanging on to raiding) and ignore 95% of the end game options.

That's the problem

Holy crap, crafting items! I never knew  WoW had such sandboxyness! So by that description nearly every MMO has "sandbox" elements because I can gather a couple of mats and click a button, cmon do you really belive that?

  Ultima online had it right, no end game just a bunch of stuff to do, and alot of stuff to do at that. No set path, do what you want, I played it 10 years before I gave it up not because I was bored but because old friends left, the game had changed to much and was getting worse, and yet in that time there was still stuff I hadnt seen and done. People saying that it was a skill grind werent playing it right, the game was much more than leveling out skills, the user created events I attended were awesome and varied, treasure hunts,parties, RP events, weekely live auctions for rares, I even took part in a fashion show once. Each one of these I cherish more than getting a awesome epic in WoW or some other raid treadmill. 

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by JGMIII

Todays community isnt really built for Hardcore play like you guys experience on SZ, Games like DF, MO, ER are timid in comparison. Safe zones, tons of quests and stuff like that are what these guys want.

 

It needs balance.  There needs to be reasonably safe areas for people who want to be reasonably safe and extremely unsafe areas for people who want to be extremely unsafe and those areas need to be entirely separate without any bleedover.  If you want to be safe, you should never be required to venture out into the unsafe areas.  You might get XP and loot slower in safe areas, you might seriously lag behind the unsafe players, but it should be possible to get from A to B without having your ass handed to you by uber-twinked PvPers who are just out to kill for the hell of it.

Yep, I actually have a post on the forums saying the reason Eve has 300k subs is partly due to its somewhat safe areas.

Lack of safe zones is also the reason Dakfall is low pop and will always be low pop.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

The problem for some people is ...

Wow in its (present) end game has some sandbox elements and some people can't handle this.

Should I make me a motorbike? What about crafting some hi end weapon system and sell them on the AH with a nice profit?

Or will I go for that Justicar PvP title or other achievement titles?

Some people can't handle that freedom at the end game (hanging on to raiding) and ignore 95% of the end game options.

That's the problem

LOL!!!! give me a break already with the stupid bike you could make with engineering. Engineering is just a regular crafting proff that you can start at level 10 in no way is that considered Endgame content in WoW.

Achievements is endgame content? last time I checked you could unlock achievements while leveling.

What freedom? Instanced pvp and Dungeons/raids? Oh that's right you are free to roll alts LOL!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree completely with the original poster. The whole idea of "endgame" is against the basic idea of a MMO. There just plain isn't supposed to be a "end" in a MMO (that's why one of the first big MMO's "EverQuest" is called "Ever"-"Quest". It's one of the great basic flaws of these level-based games. Getting rid of the level crap helps get rid of the mentality of needing to level, and having a "end". Level based games have the need for constant expansions to move the end further out, and inevitably the expansions end up distorting the basic game mechanics of the classes (classes are something else that need to be removed). Skill based games have the potential to get rid of alot of the basic problems of these level/class based games and create a much more open/realistic and long term enjoyable game experience for the player.

Depends on the MMO really.

I'm currently raiding in WoW and can honestly say it's boring as hell. Even the new content is just a rehash of older fights with new tricks. The really boring thing is, it's all scheduled and instanced. It's like being in a relationship and having scheduled sex, without exception. It's boring.

I did raid in EQ for 5 years and can honestly say it was the greates time of my MMO career. Raids in EQ were nonstop. Going for days at a time. The whole time racing other guilds for the mob. You have no idea how awesome it is to race other guilds and get that hard ass boss (AoW lol) AND do it all in front of the losers.  The problem is, you can't half ass raid. A lot of the top raiding guilds take it seriously enough to call you non-stop at home if you don't log on after several hours. One of the reasons I quit EQ and started playing the more casual WoW.

Originally posted by JGMIII

Originally posted by Zorndorf

The problem for some people is ...

Wow in its (present) end game has some sandbox elements and some people can't handle this.

Should I make me a motorbike? What about crafting some hi end weapon system and sell them on the AH with a nice profit?

Or will I go for that Justicar PvP title or other achievement titles?

Some people can't handle that freedom at the end game (hanging on to raiding) and ignore 95% of the end game options.

That's the problem

LOL!!!! give me a break already with the stupid bike you could make with engineering. Engineering is just a regular crafting proff that you can start at level 10 in no way is that considered Endgame content in WoW.

Achievements is endgame content? last time I checked you could unlock achievements while leveling.

What freedom? Instanced pvp and Dungeons/raids? Oh that's right you are free to roll alts LOL!!!!!!!!!!!

 

It is freedom in your end game of Wow. I just gave an example.

You may laugh at the helicopter I craft in Wow and fly away with it or craft and sell motorbikes ....

I laugh at EVE where you can't even leave your cocpit chair during your complete game and the elitists still like to sell it as "sandbox".

The end game of Wow is all about titles, achievements, free to do things ... besides the Raids and PvP.

People that can't handle this certainly can't handle sandbox games in the long run. :)))

My goal is to get PvP titles in its end game/ It gives me status - and you don't see any liniair themepark in obtaning those titles and achievements.

Free to choose what you like most: best end game there is . :)))

 That's the problem: one theme mmorpg's don't have 11.5 million active paying subscribers/

Originally posted by tvalentine

I hate leveling. Ever since i started eve i find it hard to play any level based games because i am just not lured by the carrot on a stick mechanic that is leveling, like i used to be. TBH i would perfer a game that starts you off at the end game, so half of the content in the game isn't obsolete when you reach that max level like in level based games. It's one of the reasons why i look forward to the secret world.

But it's not really the levels that matter to most people, except for the most shallow, it's the bonuses and the skill points and the advances in what you can do that you get with the new level.  In the end, it's the same as a skill system, you train a skill, people in a level system get points to put toward a new skill.  What both want to do is be able to use new weapons etc.  Whether you're level 50 or 51 really doesn't mean much, does it?

Originally posted by JGMIII

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by JGMIII

Todays community isnt really built for Hardcore play like you guys experience on SZ, Games like DF, MO, ER are timid in comparison. Safe zones, tons of quests and stuff like that are what these guys want.

 

It needs balance.  There needs to be reasonably safe areas for people who want to be reasonably safe and extremely unsafe areas for people who want to be extremely unsafe and those areas need to be entirely separate without any bleedover.  If you want to be safe, you should never be required to venture out into the unsafe areas.  You might get XP and loot slower in safe areas, you might seriously lag behind the unsafe players, but it should be possible to get from A to B without having your ass handed to you by uber-twinked PvPers who are just out to kill for the hell of it.

 

Yep, I actually have a post on the forums saying the reason Eve has 300k subs is partly due to its somewhat safe areas.

Lack of safe zones is also the reason Dakfall is low pop and will always be low pop.

 

Unfortunately, in EvE, to get some places, you have to go across very unsafe zones and that's problematic.  When I used to play, going from one system to another would often entail heading through 0.0-0.3 zones with the inevitable twinked assholes sitting at the gate waiting to kill anyone who came out.  That's not really safe, that's just safe so long as you limit where you go.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

The problem for some people is ...

Wow in its (present) end game has some sandbox elements and some people can't handle this.

Should I make me a motorbike? What about crafting some hi end weapon system and sell them on the AH with a nice profit?

Or will I go for that Justicar PvP title or other achievement titles?

Some people can't handle that freedom at the end game (hanging on to raiding) and ignore 95% of the end game options.

That's the problem

WoW has next to no variety at end game which is the problem.  You raid/micro raid, pvp or rep grind (and a good protion of the rep grinding is done in micro raids) that is it.  Crafting a handful of items that people would buy doesn't come close to actually end game crafting.

And I'm not just picking on WoW most game are not different.

Originally posted by Ginkeq

Originally posted by Palebane

Just do what you want. I make up my own quests and complete them at leisure. Just because many players feel the need to beat the game, doesn't mean you have to feel obligated to help them. I leveled slowly because I know that the endgame that alot of games put forth for players is not really what I enjoy. I take my time leveling, and once I finally hit the level cap, I can do more of what I enjoy, which is helping guild members out, exploring, farming, and making money. All of the quests I give myself do all of that.

 

 

Man, the quests in WoW are so damn pointless.  Really, they give you rewards and shit, but WTF? WoW is such a damn hand-holding game the quests arent fun.  Oh, want to find where to do some quests? DL some addons and it shows oyu the location of everything, thats how people grind so fast anymore.  There is no skill left in the current MMORPGs, so I don't see how doing anything at your own leisure is fun.  Everything is a grind of trivial content in WoW.  

A real MMO is one where you don't have any idea what the world looks like, one that is really dangerous, and does not hold anyones hand.  How can you have some sort of adventure in a game like WoW?  It's too newbie friendly.  I mean, the quest givers literally tell you how to level to 80, you just go back and forth for 10-20 days straight, wow, what an exciting adventure that is, one without risk or challenge.

I love quest trackers in games. Im horrible at directions, even in real life. I'm glad you get to decide what makes a real MMO. Since challenge is not relative and you lack imagination, I'm sure you do exactly what the games tell you to all the time. I was just trying to say that there are alternatives to playing a game the way it was "designed" and that you can add challenge and fun yourself if you use your imagination.

I hate games wit hend games in general. I suppose it can be fun if you have some friends to paly with and a lot of endgame features, but otherwiser i'm happier carrying on without an endgame.

Hand holding is not a good experience in any MMO.  I don't want to be told where to go, where to level, what to kill.  It's just for lousy players who can't think for themselves.

As for not requiring levels, I don't know about that.  There will always be some form of leveling, probably.   Imagine you didn't have levels, how do you differentiate players?  Would you say there are NPCs you need certain gear to kill?  That would be like leveling kind of. 

Leveling in EQ was kind of fun I thought, especially if you have fungi tunic and really nice items.  And if you didn't you had to find groups etc.  It wasn't bad though.  I liked leveling in EQ more than WoW because it was harder to solo in EQ.  WoW feels like more of a grind than anything, although it doesn't take as long it's a worse grind because teh sheer amount of quests being handed out.

To the person who said WOW has too much stuff to do at the endgame, give me a fucking break.  When I hit the max level all we did was raid instances 4-5 hours per night.  The same instances, over and over again.  Yeah, that is real fun.  

And crafted items, fishing, all that other crap you can do.  It's interesting if you don't have a brain.  Anyone who appreciates a challenge will get sick of that garbage and not even do it.  

The PvP  / Arena system is total shit, it's totally fake.  No decent PvPer would enjoy a system where you find an overpowdered class combination and PvP for fake goals.  You think worthless Honor points or Rating should be the reason that people PvP?  How dumb can a player be to enjoy such a fake system.  

It's no wonder people think MMOs are a bore when people copy WoWs shitty model.  The problem is no one obviously played a game where there is competition between guilds, PvP, and non-instanced endgames.  

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by JGMIII

Originally posted by Zorndorf

The problem for some people is ...

Wow in its (present) end game has some sandbox elements and some people can't handle this.

Should I make me a motorbike? What about crafting some hi end weapon system and sell them on the AH with a nice profit?

Or will I go for that Justicar PvP title or other achievement titles?

Some people can't handle that freedom at the end game (hanging on to raiding) and ignore 95% of the end game options.

That's the problem

LOL!!!! give me a break already with the stupid bike you could make with engineering. Engineering is just a regular crafting proff that you can start at level 10 in no way is that considered Endgame content in WoW.

Achievements is endgame content? last time I checked you could unlock achievements while leveling.

What freedom? Instanced pvp and Dungeons/raids? Oh that's right you are free to roll alts LOL!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

It is freedom in your end game of Wow. I just gave an example.

You may laugh at the helicopter I craft in Wow and fly away with it or craft and sell motorbikes ....

I laugh at EVE where you can't even leave your cocpit chair during your complete game and the elitists still like to sell it as "sandbox".

The end game of Wow is all about titles, achievements, free to do things ... besides the Raids and PvP.

People that can't handle this certainly can't handle sandbox games in the long run. :)))

My goal is to get PvP titles in its end game/ It gives me status - and you don't see any liniair themepark in obtaning those titles and achievements.

Free to choose what you like most: best end game there is . :)))

 That's the problem: one theme mmorpg's don't have 11.5 million active paying subscribers/

 

 

Achievements aren't endgame content so give it a rest, you're worthless non-combat heli is just as worthless and pure fluff.

Eve is more or an MMO then WoW will ever be, Doesnt matter if I'm a ship atleast I have more then three things to do while Im playing.

WoW is the reason Endgames suck ass today and Noone cares how many people play WoW.

Zorn you get so upset because you play a lame game and in everyone of your arguments you need to bring up Sub numbers to make yourself feel better like its a fake Ezmode win button.

What I play are real MMOs sandbox are what MMOs were intended to be, not some fake single player game with instanced low risk Co-op dungeons and pvp minigames.

People that played NWN or Diablo experienced more depth then that of a WoW player.

The fact that you haunt these forums with your WoW crap proves the game is shallow and EZmode. If it was so good you would be playing it this second.

Endgames are boring to me, because content is beaten too quickly, then expansions released and new content makes the old obsolete, new content is then beaten within a week.. then it's back to trying to catch a rare fish within your enemies stronghold...

I would like to see a level system where leveling beyond a certain point is exponentially harder, not just because of the EXP but there could be tough prerequisites to meet before getting into these meta type levels.

With a system like that then you could have original content that no one could hope to beat.. that is not yet.  Player skills will continue to slowly raise, they will chip away at their prerequisite achievements, finally start gaining new meta levels and finally overcome a powerful adversary, which in and of itself will hurdle them into an even higher level of development.  With the items and achievements from this they would be able to attempt even more powerful enemies, those of which have been there making hamburger meat of fool-hardy adventurers since day one.

Now you don't need a new expansion everytime content is beat, that changes all the rules and makes everything obsolete, instead you have existing content that will be unbeatable for a very long time. 

A game like that could be made right early, there would be no more "With the launch of new content and level cap, in order for x skill to scale properly,  we've made fundamental changes to x skill which makes y item imbalanced, so to be fair were letting everyone with y item keep theirs but no more will be available after this".

An MMO like this would be very unlikely, since the trend for development companies is to release the game unfinished ASAP and then use the revenue to make more expantions and content, never actually finishing the now obsolete old content.

Originally posted by heremypet

Endgames are boring to me, because content is beaten too quickly, then expansions released and new content makes the old obsolete, new content is then beaten within a week.. then it's back to trying to catch a rare fish within your enemies stronghold...

I would like to see a level system where leveling beyond a certain point is exponentially harder, not just because of the EXP but there could be tough prerequisites to meet before getting into these meta type levels.

With a system like that then you could have original content that no one could hope to beat.. that is not yet.  Player skills will continue to slowly raise, they will chip away at their prerequisite achievements, finally start gaining new meta levels and finally overcome a powerful adversary, which in and of itself will hurdle them into an even higher level of development.  With the items and achievements from this they would be able to attempt even more powerful enemies, those of which have been there making hamburger meat of fool-hardy adventurers since day one.

Now you don't need a new expansion everytime content is beat, that changes all the rules and makes everything obsolete, instead you have existing content that will be unbeatable for a very long time. 

A game like that could be made right early, there would be no more "With the launch of new content and level cap, in order for x skill to scale properly,  we've made fundamental changes to x skill which makes y item imbalanced, so to be fair were letting everyone with y item keep theirs but no more will be available after this".

An MMO like this would be very unlikely, since the trend for development companies is to release the game unfinished ASAP and then use the revenue to make more expantions and content, never actually finishing the now obsolete old content.

Damn right!!!!

And WoW has the worst Endgame of them all.

They went from decent 40 man raids to baby garbage!!!!!!!!

I would rather beat myself with my keyboard over and over than play a MMO thats probably worse then 10-15 other MMOs.

Its sad the sheep dont realize this.

Because of this thread, I dropped both WAR and AoC for EVE.

Thanks for opening my eyes!

(and I haven't stopped playing for 3 days now, that's something no game has done to me since Anarchy Online)

Absolutely agree!  That's why I have been advocating sandbox style games ever since the golden days of Ultima Online.  End game is rediculous in theory.  Take WoW for example, you have your character that you worked on for a year or so and have got everything you possibly can except for maybe 1 or 2 pieces of armor, so what do you do?  You proceed to repeat a dungeon raid over and over and over hoping to get those pieces and then after that what do you do?  I guess you just put him on a shelf and start all over with an alt?  LOL give me a break.  That's why sandbox is so much fun, you can literally go do anything you want.

Originally posted by Zinfacter

Because of this thread, I dropped both WAR and AoC for EVE.

Thanks for opening my eyes!

 

(and I haven't stopped playing for 3 days now, that's something no game has done to me since Anarchy Online)

This post makes me feel good.

Enjoy the game man

Endgame is a failure in the body of an MMO.

EVE, lol @ that

I tried playing it once, all I remember was the game consists of doing 20 warps to get to a destination then killing a pirate for a quest and repeating it.  Stupid bullshit & waste of time.

And the RL limits on everything are stupid, people shouldn't have to wait a year of RL time to build up skills.  Fucking hjorrible game