MMOs shouldn't be about single player quest .. that is reason I hate where the genre is going. Before WoW there wasn't quest you did given to you buy some npc. You made your own adventure in an online world. You mind as well save yourself 15/month and play a single player game with some instant message chat room running. There you go, same thing you guys love.

Now all you have are single player online GAMES with some grouping at the end. 

frying pan did u read any more of my post? probably not.

i didnt say there was a problem getting gear.

i was saying there 'isnt'

i have 3 epic toons. Dk rogue mage. i found gearing them to be CAKE this xpac.

reply to someone elsewho is actually representing the opinion u wish wish to counter.

u have horrible replys frying pan.

u should stop.

u argue with ppl on the same side of the fence.

idiot

Originally posted by frying_pan

Unfortunately no one has really answered the question why casuals whinge about "content they'll never see" when virtually all raid content IS STILL IN THE GAME.

I gave you the two examples of a world boss and a raid instance being removed from the original location and re-tuned for higher lvls (Lord Kazzak and Naxxramas).
 

Never saw the legendary c'thun? Grab a few friends and run into AQ40. Its all easy except Twin Emps that requires a degree of not sucking and using your brain (ok ok ok, I know that using your brain is "hardcore" and evil)

If you didn't see content at lvl 60 or 70 then get a few friends and go do it. IT IS STILL THERE. THEREFORE CLAIMING YOU'LL NEVER SEE CONTENT IS MORONIC.

I'll give you two reasons:

1) there is no "status" in completing content once your avatar has outleveled it.  It might be nice to see it, but I'm sure most people would rather conquer the content as it was intended to be attacked.

2) this one is what I think is the real problem and always seems to be the root of every "content/raid" issue.  They want the level appropriate loot without having to do the content.  Even when the content is so casual friendly the undertone is still there. 

Originally posted by qombi

 MMOs shouldn't be about single player quest .. that is reason I hate where the genre is going. Before WoW there wasn't quest you did given to you buy some npc. You made your own adventure in an online world. You mind as well save yourself 15/month and play a single player game with some instant message chat room running. There you go, same thing you guys love.

 

Now all you have are single player online GAMES with some grouping at the end. 

That is incorrect.  

Dark ages of camelot wsa the first game I really remember that had lots of quests that could be done solo to level and that was many years before wow was even close to releasing.  The market was well under way towards casual friendly solo questing, etc. 

What we are seeing is the pendulum swing from forced grouping all the way to solo quest grinding.  Eventually things will even out, but neither gameplay style is bad or should be eliminated.   They both compliment each other very well and should be encouraged in a game. 

Originally posted by Daffid011

You single me out for inferring quantity = quality (which I do not by the way) and then in the very next breath you infer that reducing quantity will somehow improve quality.  This is exactly what I was talking about earlier.  Apply the same standards to the discussion please and not only when it reinforces your opinion.  There is nothing to show that fewer quests or more exclusive quests would somehow be than general quests.  That is a giant assumption.  It is just as likely that quests could come out convoluted, bland and forced due to the class restriction. 

My argument wasn't about quantity for the sake of having many, but doing what you suggest could drastically reduce the amount of content players could access.  Most likely to the point of not having enough to do where as right now there is enough that can be avoided to make a fairly good trip a second time around. 

The quests are already split in half between the factions.  Further splitting them another X times for all the different class combinations  (depending on how fine you take it 5? 10? 30?), would require vast amounts of developer resources to make a comparable leveling experience to what is currently offered or needing to reduce the amount of content to players.  I don't think you get the logistics of that.  Nor the reasoning why famer wiggins would refuse the help of someone just because they are not a paladin or something.  *shrug*

As to why I keep talking about difficulty, it is simple.  This whole discussion was started about solo players not getting the same rewards as raid players and that it was somehow a problem.  One which I showed has been made so casual friendly it really isn't a problem anymore unless people simply refuse to ever play with anyone else.  You have revised your claims several times from forced raiding to pvp into the quality of storytelling in the game.

I think it is pretty clear to me now that no matter what information I give you, you are determined to find some problem to complain about.  Even if it is based on outdated information or does not directly relate to what is being discussed. 

I'm not sure if I am doing a poor job of trying to communicate my views, or if you are just intentionally being obtuse.  I guess as a practical matter it isn't relevant which is the case.

I didn't say reduce the overall quantity.  I was referring to your earlier point about it taking vastly more resources to implement class exclusive content.  My "1 quality quest instead of 10 lame quests" argument wasn't to reduce the total number of quests, it was to have 1 good quest a piece for each individual class, rather than 10 lame quests that all the classes could do.  Same number, with a more individualized experience.  I don't expect you to agree, it is fairly clear we like different things when it comes to MMOs, but I do like it when people are at least criticizing a point I was actually trying to make.  And are more exclusive quests inherently better? Of course not, the writing could still stink, but surely you aren't arguing that it isn't easier to make an immersive and interesting experience when you only have to consider one class in the design?

And the reason I said you seemed to be inferring quality from quantity was because I was talking about quality from the start, and you brought up quantity as if it had something to do with the discussion.  I'm not saying the solution I suggested is the only one, but you asked how the content could be made better in my opinion, so I pointed out one direction they could go in.  Class-based content solo content is perfectly viable, that is the route BioWare is taking.  As I mentioned before, quest with multiple possible outcomes and a branching storyline could also be explored.

As for whether or not there is "enough" to do, that depends on how you are defining enough.  If by enough, you mean enough quests to reach a given level without grinding, that is an arbitrary number, they have altered experience requirements before, and could do it again.  They simply don't want to offer a higher quality experience that would also take less time to complete, because they think that then they wouldn't get as much money from players.  Though, ironically, it would increase the replay value of the game, and possibly end up with casual players who invested *more* time, even though they invested less on leveling a single character.

As for "directly relating to what is being discussed," if I am asked a question, or think one of my arguments isn't being understood, I am going to respond without referring back to original post in the thread to make sure it fits the starting topic.  Discussions evolve.  As far as "revising my claims," some of that is the result of getting information from other posters which I didn't have, and some wasn't so much revision as adding additional claims.  That is what happens when you pay attention to what other people are saying and try to come out of a discussion with a more refined viewpoint than the one you came in with. 

I have no problem admitting that in regard to the content of the new expansion, many of the points I have made may not be valid.  That does not change whether or not they are valid in relation to the older content.  And the only part (Death Knight intro) I have experienced as far as new content goes is still poorly written.

And finally, am I seriously arguing that they should go back and rework all of the content to fit the model I suggest?  Of course not, that would be logistically retarded.  But they are good points to keep in mind when designing new content, or working on a sequel, if they ever start to do so.  Just because something that a given segment of the player population considers a "problem" is unlikely to get solved due to logistical or business concerns, doesn't mean it isn't still a problem for that population.  Even if it would make for a better game, which is a matter of perspective, fundamentally changing the way gear works in WoW, or scrapping the entire quest system in favor of a more involved one, would be a boondoggle of New Game Experience proportions. (Galaxies reference for those who don't know.) 

Most of my criticisms of WoW aren't because I think WoW can or should change, they are because I think it is unhealthy for the industry as a whole to be blindly copying WoW when there is plenty of room for improvement.  As a matter of basic fairness (which is what brought me into the raid/casual gear debate in the first place,) a game that has already been released should *never* fundamentally alter it's game mechanics after it is released, because to do so just isn't fair to all the people who have invested tons of time and money into the way the game is currently designed.  Ultimately if you don't like the way a game plays, you should play a different game.  Unfortunately that is hard in the MMO industry if the game you happen not to like is WoW.

Originally posted by Zairu

also the story line has improved as far as quest involvment goes.

In Azeroth you do peopls chores.

in BC you learn about outland  tibes.

In wotlk almost every quest i did (im also picky) was intimatly intertwined with the struggle with the Lich King.

In BC i never saw Illidan nor felt his influence in outland. in Wotlk u cant get away fromArthas. he is everywhere and if that isnt improvment then what would be?

ive played alot of video games and i can honetly say the normal fantasy game be it rts or what it has usually pretty basic shitty storylines. WoW takes ur basic story recycles them like everyone else BUT puts a twist to it that i have yet to see other companies do. I love WoW lore. its one of the only reason i play.

Name a fantasy game with just such a badass story. frankly ALL of them bore the shit out of me ...so i ROLE PLAY........u kids have no imagination.

Wow  has a kick ass story everytime i play cuz i bring my own into it wothout conflicting with the overall [plot the game already offers.

 

let me c......

og chrono trigger had a good story

the legacy of Kain games had good story

other than that i dont play videogames for writing and if u do then u should try reading novels. it is more rewarding the the same old predictable 'we sealed the portal and the demon lord is banished once again'

Your spelling/grammar make my brain hurt, but you make some good actual points.  The overall Warcraft world has some pretty well developed lore.  I have no complaints about any of the strategy games.  I just don't think WoW ever manages to really integrate player characters into the story very well: with the exception of some of the battlegrounds.  While I think it is watered down now, I will always love my memories of Alterac Valley. *That* was worthy of Warcraft.

As for the claim I have seen in this thread several times, about increased story quality in the most recent expansion, I am happy to take your word for it and believe you.  Unfortunately for me, my highest level character (if I were to come back) is only 62, so I would have to suffer through several more levels in Outland before seeing any of the new and improved content.  I have no desire to spend $40.00 on the off chance that after I spend enough time suffering to hit 70 I might find some halfway decent content in Northrend.  That's just me, I already shelled out the extra money to see the new pretty sky over the same old game in Burning Crusade.  Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...

As for a fantasy game with badass story, you didn't specify MMO, so that is absurdly easy.  The Baldur's Gate series.  Several of the Might & Magic games.  Hell, compared to most of the writing you see in MMOs, the old Bard's Tale games were a masterpiece.  Betrayal at Kronder was a great game.  Return to Krondor, not so much, but it's story was the strong point in a weak game.

As for telling people who like good writing to just go read, that really isn't fair to the companies that do devote effort to engaging stories, or to a fair segment of the gaming population, as the best RPGs don't *have* a correlary in literature.  In order to have a novel equivalent to a great RPG, you would have to have George R.R. Martin, Raymond Feist, or some comparable author  write a Choose Your Own Adventure book that happened to be 1,000 pages long.

yes im the typo king

i guess what i really ment about the storyline was that the basic plot of fantasy games is in almost everyone of them so i don't understand why people get so worked up about wow's story being horible. do u read the quest and more importantly did u know enough about WC lore b4 hand?

i admit they have badly butchered many key lore elements for the sake of new raid bosses but if u have prior xp in WC games then lore is everywhere u go. the fact that wow plot is now invloving the titans is awesome. that is lore only TALKED about in the prehistory of WC rts games. and now it is a phenomenon in game directly effecting the world of Azeroth if noone manages to keep the evil contained. and that is the problem with alot of games and gamers. they just do get into it anymore.

wow bores the hell out of me. but so should anything that i do so often. therfore i dont try to convince myself there is some godly mmo out there that is better becaue i have tried them and even though wow isnt perfect in any way those other games dont deserve the sub fee. Main reason? they play blocky. moves have slow reaction. i just think they are way MORE boring than wow could ever b. if other people enjoy them and hate wow..... i have nothing to do with it so why would i care.

so like ive said on this site before. find me an mmo where i can customize a dark-night elf that is better than wow and i will play it.

so far...

eq2 - vangaurd - warhammer - lineage 2

ive tried others but those i know u can be a dark elf.  serious. point me in a direction without naming some outdated game with no new content or growing population and i will thank u.

Originally posted by CazNeerg

 

I'm not sure if I am doing a poor job of trying to communicate my views, or if you are just intentionally being obtuse.  I guess as a practical matter it isn't relevant which is the case.

I didn't say reduce the overall quantity.  I was referring to your earlier point about it taking vastly more resources to implement class exclusive content.  My "1 quality quest instead of 10 lame quests" argument wasn't to reduce the total number of quests, it was to have 1 good quest a piece for each individual class, rather than 10 lame quests that all the classes could do.  Same number, with a more individualized experience.  I don't expect you to agree, it is fairly clear we like different things when it comes to MMOs, but I do like it when people are at least criticizing a point I was actually trying to make.  And are more exclusive quests inherently better? Of course not, the writing could still stink, but surely you aren't arguing that it isn't easier to make an immersive and interesting experience when you only have to consider one class in the design?

And the reason I said you seemed to be inferring quality from quantity was because I was talking about quality from the start, and you brought up quantity as if it had something to do with the discussion.  I'm not saying the solution I suggested is the only one, but you asked how the content could be made better in my opinion, so I pointed out one direction they could go in.  Class-based content solo content is perfectly viable, that is the route BioWare is taking.  As I mentioned before, quest with multiple possible outcomes and a branching storyline could also be explored.

As for whether or not there is "enough" to do, that depends on how you are defining enough.  If by enough, you mean enough quests to reach a given level without grinding, that is an arbitrary number, they have altered experience requirements before, and could do it again.  They simply don't want to offer a higher quality experience that would also take less time to complete, because they think that then they wouldn't get as much money from players.  Though, ironically, it would increase the replay value of the game, and possibly end up with casual players who invested *more* time, even though they invested less on leveling a single character.

As for "directly relating to what is being discussed," if I am asked a question, or think one of my arguments isn't being understood, I am going to respond without referring back to original post in the thread to make sure it fits the starting topic.  Discussions evolve.  As far as "revising my claims," some of that is the result of getting information from other posters which I didn't have, and some wasn't so much revision as adding additional claims.  That is what happens when you pay attention to what other people are saying and try to come out of a discussion with a more refined viewpoint than the one you came in with. 

I have no problem admitting that in regard to the content of the new expansion, many of the points I have made may not be valid.  That does not change whether or not they are valid in relation to the older content.  And the only part (Death Knight intro) I have experienced as far as new content goes is still poorly written.

And finally, am I seriously arguing that they should go back and rework all of the content to fit the model I suggest?  Of course not, that would be logistically retarded.  But they are good points to keep in mind when designing new content, or working on a sequel, if they ever start to do so.  Just because something that a given segment of the player population considers a "problem" is unlikely to get solved due to logistical or business concerns, doesn't mean it isn't still a problem for that population.  Even if it would make for a better game, which is a matter of perspective, fundamentally changing the way gear works in WoW, or scrapping the entire quest system in favor of a more involved one, would be a boondoggle of New Game Experience proportions. (Galaxies reference for those who don't know.) 

Most of my criticisms of WoW aren't because I think WoW can or should change, they are because I think it is unhealthy for the industry as a whole to be blindly copying WoW when there is plenty of room for improvement.  As a matter of basic fairness (which is what brought me into the raid/casual gear debate in the first place,) a game that has already been released should *never* fundamentally alter it's game mechanics after it is released, because to do so just isn't fair to all the people who have invested tons of time and money into the way the game is currently designed.  Ultimately if you don't like the way a game plays, you should play a different game.  Unfortunately that is hard in the MMO industry if the game you happen not to like is WoW.

The points you are trying to make may get lost in the flippant manner you post them and changing stances.  Saying things like developers are to lazy to make quality quests isn't being realistic, especially when you propose a solution that is logistically impossible.  Something I may not have explained very well, so I will try to explain it a bit with numbers for you.

Your solution is for developers to make "better" quests that are tailored more for individual classes.  Lets say a game has 1000 quests, takes about 100 hours and 500 quests for a player to reach level cap doing those quests for an average of 12 minutes per quest.  Now the developers take 1 hour to create each of those quests, so 1,000 developer hours are spent making them.

Now apply your solution to the game with 10 classes.  Suddenly you have 100 quests per class which will either leave players short of quests or need to have experience ramped so high that it will skyrocket players to level cap in 10% of the time.  You would either need more developers, more time, rework the entire game to allow for drastically faster leveling or just release less content for players to enjoy while playing.  It is less content unless someone plays all 10 classes, which I'm sure we can both agree there are plenty of people who don't just want to reroll classes all the time. 

All that aside, you still have the same amount of developers making the same amount of quests in the same development time.  Nothing has changed to allow the devs to create "better" content.  Nothing at all has changed to fulfill your simple solution unless you simply want to view the developers as lazy and somehow think they can produce better quality in the same amount of time and resources by making a class specific quests.  That is why I think that calling the developers lazy is just a bit out of line and detracts from any point you are trying to make.  Much like most of your points which get caught up in that.   Such as claiming people are forced to raid in order to pvp (back when you claimed that was your only point) when it is not even close to the case. 

Underneath it all, I do understand where you are heading and there is some merit to your idea, but not in the way you think it would be.  To me it sounds like it would just further push mmos down the single player game path.  I actually think it is the wrong direction to go, but that is just an opinion. 

When I said you changed stances I wasn't talking about staying on topic, I was talking about you shifting stances just to keep your fire buring.  Loot was the first problem and I showed that changed.  Then it was raids and again I showed change.  Then it was forced raiding to pvp, same results and now it is quests or stories or whatever.   

I think you are just determined to find something to complain about. 

As for the new bioware game coming out, lets pray it is something new and fun.  The mmo genre sure needs something new.  However back in the day when wow was shiny and new, the quest based leveling system was pretty flashy and well written.  5 years later it may not look as good or offer the same engaging play it once did especially after doing it so many times, but it still was good.  Nothing like the 80's saturday cartoon writing you make it out to be.  Seriously, marvin, wendy and wonderdog hail from that era.  Few things are that bad.    I'm sure no matter how great the bioware system is, that in 5 years after that games release people will yearn for something new also and start to look at the republic with less than friendly comments.

Originally posted by dinurium

I do not play wow.  I have not been on any raids obviously. 

Casual gamers ,like myself, cant do raids for a number of reasons.   One is they cannot adhere to a gaming schedule.  Meaning, they cannot be at their PC for 5 pm tuesday.  They have a job, wife, kids, friends, social obligations etc.  

They are frequent afkers  His wife might call him away from the keyboard every 20 minutes.  Their kids might cry.  Their dog might of just pissed on the sofa.   They cannot commit to being at the keyboard at that crucial raid moment.

Simply, they just dont have the time.  Maybe they cant play for an hour or two or 3.

I do not think the most uber content should only be raid attainable for these reasons and more.   I pay money.   I dont say dont raid.  I might even keep my sub as long as a raider because it takes me longer to hit max level.  Why  not give me the best loots too and make the raid more about badass content.   In other words make the gear equal, regardless if its top tier crafted or top tier quested.

Because people who put in more time then you do deserve better rewards. You don't work 8 hours a week at your job, then ask for more money then the guy doing 60.

Who the hell compares work with a game?  This is a form of entertainment, not a frigging job.  God knows there are tons of electronic and board games that require absolutley no work, but are rewarding none the less.  If a MMO is going to tout itself as being very casual friendly, then it needs to be so, from beginning to END.  It's not fair to allow for many play styles but show favoritism to only one (Raiding).  Don't give me that "the world isn't fair" crap, it's what we make of it.  Bad things and bad behavior don't happen on their own, we MAKE them happen.

Originally posted by Vrazule

Who the hell compares work with a game?  This is a form of entertainment, not a frigging job.  God knows there are tons of electronic and board games that require absolutley no work, but are rewarding none the less.  If a MMO is going to tout itself as being very casual friendly, then it needs to be so, from beginning to END.  It's not fair to allow for many play styles but show favoritism to only one (Raiding).  Don't give me that "the world isn't fair" crap, it's what we make of it.  Bad things and bad behavior don't happen on their own, we MAKE them happen.

Point is, when you play you should got reward from the gaming process.  The loot is just part of the process.

When you log out, you do not bring the purple loot with you to bed, your bring a happy smile and forget about the game.

That is me, at least.

Originally posted by Zairu

so like ive said on this site before. find me an mmo where i can customize a dark-night elf that is better than wow and i will play it.

so far...

eq2 - vangaurd - warhammer - lineage 2

ive tried others but those i know u can be a dark elf.  serious. point me in a direction without naming some outdated game with no new content or growing population and i will thank u.

I wish I could, I really do.  I like dark elves as well.  Unfortunately it is hard to find a game to beat WoW when most of them are obsessively trying to imitate it.

Originally posted by CazNeerg

Originally posted by Zairu

so like ive said on this site before. find me an mmo where i can customize a dark-night elf that is better than wow and i will play it.

so far...

eq2 - vangaurd - warhammer - lineage 2

ive tried others but those i know u can be a dark elf.  serious. point me in a direction without naming some outdated game with no new content or growing population and i will thank u.

 

I wish I could, I really do.  I like dark elves as well.  Unfortunately it is hard to find a game to beat WoW when most of them are obsessively trying to imitate it.

Talking about customisation, CoX gives me great pleasure in the past.  That is past.

People talking about Aion giving even greater options, I don't now that part.  Mayebe you can try.  Aion is new.

But seriously, how do you find WoW customisation to be great.  I play WoW, and yes I like it, but not quite for the customisation.  Everyone in T7 gear looks the same, every undead is another undead, if you have the same gear.

Originally posted by Daffid011

The points you are trying to make may get lost in the flippant manner you post them and changing stances.  Saying things like developers are to lazy to make quality quests isn't being realistic, especially when you propose a solution that is logistically impossible.  Something I may not have explained very well, so I will try to explain it a bit with numbers for you.

All that aside, you still have the same amount of developers making the same amount of quests in the same development time.  Nothing has changed to allow the devs to create "better" content.  Nothing at all has changed to fulfill your simple solution unless you simply want to view the developers as lazy and somehow think they can produce better quality in the same amount of time and resources by making a class specific quests.  That is why I think that calling the developers lazy is just a bit out of line and detracts from any point you are trying to make.  Much like most of your points which get caught up in that.   Such as claiming people are forced to raid in order to pvp (back when you claimed that was your only point) when it is not even close to the case. 

Underneath it all, I do understand where you are heading and there is some merit to your idea, but not in the way you think it would be.  To me it sounds like it would just further push mmos down the single player game path.  I actually think it is the wrong direction to go, but that is just an opinion. 

When I said you changed stances I wasn't talking about staying on topic, I was talking about you shifting stances just to keep your fire buring.  Loot was the first problem and I showed that changed.  Then it was raids and again I showed change.  Then it was forced raiding to pvp, same results and now it is quests or stories or whatever.   

I think you are just determined to find something to complain about. 

 As for the new bioware game coming out, lets pray it is something new and fun.  The mmo genre sure needs something new.  However back in the day when wow was shiny and new, the quest based leveling system was pretty flashy and well written.  5 years later it may not look as good or offer the same engaging play it once did especially after doing it so many times, but it still was good.  Nothing like the 80's saturday cartoon writing you make it out to be.  Seriously, marvin, wendy and wonderdog hail from that era.  Few things are that bad.    I'm sure no matter how great the bioware system is, that in 5 years after that games release people will yearn for something new also and start to look at the republic with less than friendly comments.

It isn't any particular need to complain, it is more just a habit of staying with any argument I start until all the interesting possibilities are exhausted.  I shifted stances when you provided me with enough data/argumentation to make me believe I lacked sufficient personal knowledge to be advancing the claims as presented.  Here I was thinking it was healthy and productive not to pursue an argument when you were no longer sure it was valid.  Though I do stand by the validity of all my claims as of the time I stopped regularly playing WoW (pre-BC).

And I was saying the writing wasn't even up to the 80s cartoon level, not that it was at that level.  The 80s provided us with the best cartoons we have, I would kill for an MMO with 80s cartoon quality writing.

As for calling the developers lazy, that was just me letting my irritation motivate me into using a pejorative term that wasn't entirely accurate.  The "problem" that I used an inaccurate bitter shorthand to refer to as "laziness" is more an issue of the developers not seeming to have any respect for the potential quests have to incredibly enhance the immersion factor if they were approached in a fundamentally different way.  I guess my mind went to "lazy" in labelling their design choices regarding quests because they seem to have just started with a preconception of quests as nothing but a means of gaining xp, and not really shown any indication of questioning that assumption and exploring possibilities for more dynamic structures.

I really don't think there is a "proper" direction for the industry to go in.  I think the view that there is such a thing as a proper direction is one of the major reasons WoW has no serious competitors, because most of them decided WoW had found the "proper" direction and slavishly tried to imitate it.  I think the industry will be much healthier as a whole if we have a couple or several games focusing on each different play style.  You are right, most of the changes I would like to see would create a much deeper and richer solo experience within an MMO, but I think there is a market for that.  Would it be good for the industry if *every* game tried to be that way? Of course not, but it wouldn't be any worse than every game trying to be a gear-focused WoW clone.  In this particular context, diversity is a good thing, and right now we don't have much of it.

As for the BioWare game probably losing its shininess after a while, has WoW lost its shininess for those who are really fans of its style, or just for those who enjoyed it for a while but for whom it wasn't really a good fit?  If TOR turns out the way I expect, I suspect it will never completely lose its appeal for me, as I guarantee I have spent more time replaying KotOR than I ever spent playing WoW.  Heck, I've probably spent more time playing KotOR 2 than WoW, and that was an unfinished imitation from a lesser company.  There are many different markets playing online games, and it is nice to finally see recognition from a major developer that one size does not fit all.

This all boils down simply to how much you want to do something. I mean if you really want to go out for a meal with friends and family, or to go see a movie or even just to have a night on the tiles then you'll find the time, make the plans and do it. You might arrange a sitter or have the kids have a night or two at their grandparents, but whatever your circumstances, if you want some free time to do what you want to do then you'll find that time. Won't you?

It's not about belittling the hardcore players who run the same instance time after time, night after night, looking for that one drop. If that's what they want to spend their time doing, good luck to them.

And nor is it about dismissing the casual player who lacks either opportunity or inclination to set aside that much of his life to what they see as 'just a game'.

This is the third class of gamer, the 'convenience' type, who thinks just because they bought a game means they're entitled to see all it has to offer.

And they're not. WoW does try very hard to accomodate everyone, but it really only works when you understand you have to meet the game at least partway to see the high-end content it has to offer.
 

Originally posted by frying_pan

Why do so many (casual) players whinge about raid content they claim they'll never see? Lets take a look at WoW's raids with active lockouts:

Molten Core/Onyxia : Still in the game

Zul'gurub: Still in the game.

Blackwing Lair: Still in the game

AQ20: Still in the game

AQ40: Still in the game

40 Man Naxxramas: No longer in the game in this format.

Karazhan: Still in the game

Gruuls's Lair: Still in the game

Magtheridon's Lair: Still in the game

SSC/TK: Still in the game. No longer need attunements.

Mount Hyjal/Black Temple: Still in the game. No longer need attunements.

Zul'Aman: Still in the game. The Amani war bear had been removed from the loot table of the 4th chest.

Sunwell Plateau: Still in the game

World bosses: Azuregos, Lord Kazzak was moved to outlands as Doom Lord Kazzak, Ysondre/Lethon/Emeriss/Taerer and Doomwalker are still in the game. Only Kazzak was removed from the Blasted Lands and re-tuned for lvl 70's and placed in outlands.

 

So why are people complaining about content that "they will never see". You never saw Black Temple at lvl 70? Fine, go get a group and go back and clear it. Theres nothing stopping you.

The only content that has been removed from the game is lvl 60 Naxx which was re-done as  10/25 man Naxxramas

It's nice to do the content at the appropriate lvl caps.  This is why we lack skillful players in the game today. 

Originally posted by Daffid011

I'll give you two reasons:

1) there is no "status" in completing content once your avatar has outleveled it.  It might be nice to see it, but I'm sure most people would rather conquer the content as it was intended to be attacked.

2) this one is what I think is the real problem and always seems to be the root of every "content/raid" issue.  They want the level appropriate loot without having to do the content.  Even when the content is so casual friendly the undertone is still there. 

 

I agree with you 100%.

But what I find puzzling is that "casuals" bleet on about how WoW is just a game. If its just a game then why are so many casuals OBSESSED with getting top quality gear? Its just a game. What do you care? If your social life involves hanging out with rock stars and Hollywood celebrities then why do you get so ENRAGED that nerds get purple pixels with bigger numbers on them?

What does it matter if you do Sunweall Plateau at lvl 80 instead of level 70? SWP is still very challenging for lvl 80 casual players. I've actually had people say the M'uru encounter in its original state  would still be harder than most lvl 80 Naxx bosses.

I just find it amusing so many "casual" mock "hardcores" for being no-life nerds that are addicted to a computer game and yet complain and whinge more than the "hardcores" when something doesn't meet their expectations.

Dear Casuals,

Its just a game.

---

I agree with you 100%.
But what I find puzzling is that "casuals" bleet on about how WoW is just a game. If its just a game then why are so many casuals OBSESSED with getting top quality gear? Its just a game. What do you care?

---

Where do you get this idea ? It's usually the hardcore people that turn the argument around if someone says, oh I would love to see (insert x raid dungeon), they start responding with 'No You cant have free epics !!!!11!!'. But that's not the point of the argument at all...

Originally posted by sinjin

It's nice to do the content at the appropriate lvl caps.  This is why we lack skillful players in the game today. 

Its nice to have a golf handicap under 5. But without a lot of hard work and effort I'm not going to get a low handicap am I? But inside of crying that "I PAY THE SAME MEMBERSHIP FEE THEREFORE I SHOULD HAVE THE SAME HANDICAP" people just play at their own pace.

As long as there is content to do then why do "casuals" spend more time worrying about what other people are doing than concentracting on what they're doing? OMG SOMEONE HAS A BIGGER SLICE OF CAKE THAN ME!

I agree the problem is that people are more interested in the loot than seeing the content which leads to complaints when content is hard and the loot train is derailed.

Of course this brings up the fact that in the last 2 years Blizzard has hardly released any new raid content. Pre-BC one of my 60's ( I had two on two different servers until they introduced paid transfers) was in a guild that was not only "casual" but basically terrible and hopeless. But they still managed to clear Onyxia, Molten Core, ZG and AQ20. And after clearing all that content that was pretty much it for the week. No one was too worried about not even being to able to down Razorgore because there was still plenty of other content to do.

Now you do the same instance 4 ways. Normal mode, normal mode in hard mode. Heroic mode and heroic mode in hard mode. So you basically kill the same boss 4 different ways to "clear" content in WoW. All beause Blizzard is funnelling 99.99999% of WoW's profits into other projects.

Originally posted by zimmy910

 

 

Where do you get this idea ? It's usually the hardcore people that turn the argument around if someone says, oh I would love to see (insert x raid dungeon), they start responding with 'No You cant have free epics !!!!11!!'. But that's not the point of the argument at all...

It helps if you read the whole thread.

I'll give you an example. Taken from page 5 from someone called Vrazule. And I quote:

I want the content that I like doing, questing, exploration, some player versus player to offer loot as good raiders get, not the half assed welfare epics they give us now in PvP or faction grinding. I pay the same $15 bucks a month you guys do, but Blizzard thinks your play style is more deserving of the best loot? I call bullshit. How the hell can they make such a casual friendly game only to stick it to casuals with the crappy end of the loot stick? Why the hell should a casual game even have raiding in the first place, let alone giving them (raiders) special content.

We casuals outnumber you elitist pricks, which means most of our subscription money goes to creating YOUR raiding content, taking away from ours and adding insult to injury by giving us crappy rewards to boot.
I'm a hardcore casual, in that I play a lot, but I play casually. I'm not interested in wasting 2 to 6 hours on a raid. One, it's boring as hell. Two, I hate the politics. Three, I hate that it's the raid leader who gets to determine who gets loot. Four, I hate the whole format of doing the raid over and over and over ad nauseum in order to gear up.

Originally posted by frying_pan

Originally posted by zimmy910

 

 

Where do you get this idea ? It's usually the hardcore people that turn the argument around if someone says, oh I would love to see (insert x raid dungeon), they start responding with 'No You cant have free epics !!!!11!!'. But that's not the point of the argument at all...

It helps if you read the whole thread.

 

 

I'll give you an example. Taken from page 5 from someone called Vrazule. And I quote:

I want the content that I like doing, questing, exploration, some player versus player to offer loot as good raiders get, not the half assed welfare epics they give us now in PvP or faction grinding. I pay the same $15 bucks a month you guys do, but Blizzard thinks your play style is more deserving of the best loot? I call bullshit. How the hell can they make such a casual friendly game only to stick it to casuals with the crappy end of the loot stick? Why the hell should a casual game even have raiding in the first place, let alone giving them (raiders) special content.

We casuals outnumber you elitist pricks, which means most of our subscription money goes to creating YOUR raiding content, taking away from ours and adding insult to injury by giving us crappy rewards to boot.
I'm a hardcore casual, in that I play a lot, but I play casually. I'm not interested in wasting 2 to 6 hours on a raid. One, it's boring as hell. Two, I hate the politics. Three, I hate that it's the raid leader who gets to determine who gets loot. Four, I hate the whole format of doing the raid over and over and over ad nauseum in order to gear up.

wow, that guy is an embarassment to casuals themselves. Usually casuals just want the same experience as the hardcore, and hardcore just don't want to get burned out. I hope that guy is still learning molten core.

After that, they all discover eve, and realize that there is no distinction of casual vs hardcore in eve, as progression is based off of real time and not how much time you put in to the game (plus you can play for 0$/month as opposed to 15$/mo - how hard is that of a decision?) :)

Originally posted by frying_pan

Its nice to have a golf handicap under 5. But without a lot of hard work and effort I'm not going to get a low handicap am I? But inside of crying that "I PAY THE SAME MEMBERSHIP FEE THEREFORE I SHOULD HAVE THE SAME HANDICAP" people just play at their own pace.

Actually, in non-professional tournaments at golf courses they adjust the player's scores according to whatever their handicaps are, so the more "casual" golfers can conceivably win the tournament even when they get a worse score than the "hardcore" golfers.  So if WoW was run by a country club, the casuals would be winning this fight.

Originally posted by darkraptor

Originally posted by frying_pan

 

 

I'll give you an example. Taken from page 5 from someone called Vrazule. And I quote:

I want the content that I like doing, questing, exploration, some player versus player to offer loot as good raiders get, not the half assed welfare epics they give us now in PvP or faction grinding. I pay the same $15 bucks a month you guys do, but Blizzard thinks your play style is more deserving of the best loot? I call bullshit. How the hell can they make such a casual friendly game only to stick it to casuals with the crappy end of the loot stick? Why the hell should a casual game even have raiding in the first place, let alone giving them (raiders) special content.

We casuals outnumber you elitist pricks, which means most of our subscription money goes to creating YOUR raiding content, taking away from ours and adding insult to injury by giving us crappy rewards to boot.
I'm a hardcore casual, in that I play a lot, but I play casually. I'm not interested in wasting 2 to 6 hours on a raid. One, it's boring as hell. Two, I hate the politics. Three, I hate that it's the raid leader who gets to determine who gets loot. Four, I hate the whole format of doing the raid over and over and over ad nauseum in order to gear up.

Originally posted by zimmy910

 

 

Where do you get this idea ? It's usually the hardcore people that turn the argument around if someone says, oh I would love to see (insert x raid dungeon), they start responding with 'No You cant have free epics !!!!11!!'. But that's not the point of the argument at all...

It helps if you read the whole thread.

 

wow, that guy is an embarassment to casuals themselves. Usually casuals just want the same experience as the hardcore, and hardcore just don't want to get burned out. I hope that guy is still learning molten core.

After that, they all discover eve, and realize that there is no distinction of casual vs hardcore in eve, as progression is based off of real time and not how much time you put in to the game (plus you can play for 0$/month as opposed to 15$/mo - how hard is that of a decision?) :)

Embarrassment?  Please explain your reasoning that treating each play style equally is somehow wrong.

We are paying customers with different play styles.  The MMO company caters to those multiple play styles, but not equally and yet charges the same subscription fee despite this.  It is well within any customer's right to demand equal treatment and consideration.  You get epics for your play style, we should get epics that are just as good for ours.  Just because we play the game differently than you does not justify the inequality, especially for a piece of frigging entertainment software.

Developers purposefully choose to give raiders the best of the best, based on an arbitrary system made up of some illusionary risk vs reward scam.  I've yet to see a game where raiders risk anything more than other types of players.  Even time invenstment isn't a factor.  You might sit in front of the computer for an 8 hour session, but I will end up putting in just as much if not more time as you will over a time period, but will not see equal rewards and that is bullshit.

I hate WoW, looks like 8 year olds play it...