Originally posted by Zorndorf

OP.

You should change your title "Blizzard owns all" instead of Wow.

There is so much frustration around this game because it indeed simply is too popular and has a tremendous impact in subs.

Compare it to Microsoft and the hate MS generates.

----

But those of us who really follow the TECHNIQUES in Wotlk used, know what Blizzard is capable of these days (phasing, dramatic changing of 3D landscapes, destructable buildings, air combat, vertical worlds build up).

If you play the latest Ulduar or adventure in the Fjords these days, you know exactly HOW big the gap is getting between Blizzard and simply the rest of the developpers.

Wow players who stopped playing 3 years ago (like you did) have  no idea what techniques are developped these days that WILL be used in future projects.

Add to that 1 billion dollars on a yearly revenue and be sure the next mmorpg from Blizzard will own 10 times more.

I constantly have the impression Blizzard is even hampered by Wow to use these newer techniques to the fullest.

Expect a bomb in the coming years in their next mmo projects.

I have to agree with you on this one :P.....just wish Blizzard uses it older methods though (Starcraft) to make their upcoming games....or maybe the "new generation" of gamers are just too casual.
 

Wow is ok because it's made by blizzard, other than that it's not that great. When you cancel your sub leaving for another game it basicly tells you wow copies every features other games have to offer. Example, dual builds were in CoH long before in WoW. Flying in CoH long before WoW. I mosly played CoH so that's the ones i saw.

Personnaly i dislike it's community a great deal. Gear power lever getting out of hand after level cap makes this game greatly imbalanced for pvp and that's the only option that i see if you don't like to group. It's not like people out there are friendly and like to help for group quests.

Blizzard makes great games, this one is just getting old.

forums like this is the reason why we keep getting wow knock offs and no dev team will try nothing new because it will just crash and burn wows not a great game wows a genre killer.

everyone may say ohhh i can't wait for this game to come out but 1 wrong move by the devs and its doom sayer time

Originally posted by Ethian

WoW wouldnt have 10+ million subscribers otherwise. Its simply a great game which new MMORPGs coming out try to match. No company will outdue WoW in a long long time unless a company grows some balls and takes some risks (launches a totally different MMO with a new approach to MMORPGs) Companys need to stop focusing so much on graphics as well.

Whats everyones thoughts?? 

For the sake of causing controversy in yet another WoW thread....hehe  {I like WoW though...so this is for fun!}

Maple Story hits 92 million users!

When you think of big MMOs, you probably think of World of Warcraft, but the true big MMO is Korean sensation MapleStory. Where WoW boasts about 11 million users worldwide (give or take a million here or there) MapleStory says there are over 92 million people playing the game, six million of whom are in North America. Who knew??

To put this number in perspective, if MapleStory was a country, it would be 88th in the world in terms of population, hosting more people than the nations of Switzerland, Honduras, and Ireland.

I recently returned to WoW, and it is by far not the best looking game from a technical standpoint, but the upgraded ultra settings at 1900x1200 actually do look pretty good.

Not at all what I remember from when I quit.

Originally posted by SonofSeth

 WoW is Elvis, all hail the king!

Kyle, Kyle, Kyle, it's not best becasue it's popular, it's popular because it's best. The side effects of it's popularity are that it's looked down upon by self proclaimed elititst. That is the degree in which comparisson with TV and music works. Truly awful products never make it in the long run and WoW has made it in the longest of runs (speaking of played, reviewed and imortalised on TV, machinima and the hopefuly incoming live action movie).

You have the same effect in every entertainment form available. The more someone invests in his hobby the more he requires from it to get the same high like the first time, it just works like that. I'm at the same place with movies, but I'm still unspoiled enough with games to be able to enjoy games just for fun, not for some deeper, life afirming expirience.

Only way anyone can factually try to prove WoWs inferiority is by listing features WoW doesen't have. The problem with that is that you can do that with game that competes with WoW for same or similar audience. It's just that other games have much more missing or unfunctional features.

 

Taste is something else, you can't qualify taste, what you can qualify is subscribtion numbers, review scores, number of years that playerbase is growing, impact on the competition, cultural references and social sphere penetration rate. Try comparing any other game by those terms and see what you get, becasue everything else is just taste. 

Only taste anyone ever really cares for is their own, so taste is cheap.

Or you could simplify things and compare it to EVE and realize quite quickly that while WOW is popular (and hence invades culture andd social spheres) it just is not the best game out there. EVE beats it on almost every other level except popularity.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by SonofSeth

 WoW is Elvis, all hail the king!

Kyle, Kyle, Kyle, it's not best becasue it's popular, it's popular because it's best. The side effects of it's popularity are that it's looked down upon by self proclaimed elititst. That is the degree in which comparisson with TV and music works. Truly awful products never make it in the long run and WoW has made it in the longest of runs (speaking of played, reviewed and imortalised on TV, machinima and the hopefuly incoming live action movie).

You have the same effect in every entertainment form available. The more someone invests in his hobby the more he requires from it to get the same high like the first time, it just works like that. I'm at the same place with movies, but I'm still unspoiled enough with games to be able to enjoy games just for fun, not for some deeper, life afirming expirience.

Only way anyone can factually try to prove WoWs inferiority is by listing features WoW doesen't have. The problem with that is that you can do that with game that competes with WoW for same or similar audience. It's just that other games have much more missing or unfunctional features.

 

Taste is something else, you can't qualify taste, what you can qualify is subscribtion numbers, review scores, number of years that playerbase is growing, impact on the competition, cultural references and social sphere penetration rate. Try comparing any other game by those terms and see what you get, becasue everything else is just taste. 

Only taste anyone ever really cares for is their own, so taste is cheap.

 

Or you could simplify things and compare it to EVE and realize quite quickly that while WOW is popular (and hence invades culture andd social spheres) it just is not the best game out there. EVE beats it on almost every other level except popularity.

 

Apples and Oranges.  WoW is a fantasy rpg, while eve is a sci-fi spaceship rpg.  Eve may have a ton more freedom then wow, but it still requires time and grind.   And also, I think that some players (the majority in this case) like the direction that WoW gives.... the so called "themepark" experience.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by SonofSeth

Taste is something else, you can't qualify taste, what you can qualify is subscribtion numbers, review scores, number of years that playerbase is growing, impact on the competition, cultural references and social sphere penetration rate. Try comparing any other game by those terms and see what you get, becasue everything else is just taste. 

Only taste anyone ever really cares for is their own, so taste is cheap.

 

Or you could simplify things and compare it to EVE and realize quite quickly that while WOW is popular (and hence invades culture andd social spheres) it just is not the best game out there. EVE beats it on almost every other level except popularity.

 

But what are those levels? You sure seem like you are trying to make all my points invalid with one sweeping statement. Let's try to compare apples to oranges for once. I'm willing to say that EVE is as good of a space simulator as WoW is good as a fantasy game.

But how can we call one of them the best? What levels of comparison would you choose so that we can get an aproximation. I listed mine, what are yours?

Originally posted by SonofSeth

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by SonofSeth

Taste is something else, you can't qualify taste, what you can qualify is subscribtion numbers, review scores, number of years that playerbase is growing, impact on the competition, cultural references and social sphere penetration rate. Try comparing any other game by those terms and see what you get, becasue everything else is just taste. 

Only taste anyone ever really cares for is their own, so taste is cheap.

 

Or you could simplify things and compare it to EVE and realize quite quickly that while WOW is popular (and hence invades culture andd social spheres) it just is not the best game out there. EVE beats it on almost every other level except popularity.

 

 

But what are those levels? You sure seem like you are trying to make all my points invalid with one sweeping statement. Let's try to compare apples to oranges for once. I'm willing to say that EVE is as good of a space simulator as WoW is good as a fantasy game.

But how can we call one of them the best? What levels of comparison would you choose so that we can get an aproximation. I listed mine, what are yours?

warcrafts proberbly the best fantasy mmo out there at the moment that does nt mean the others dont have something to offer . age of conans now a pretty decent game , warhammer offers some pretty good pvp . wow proberbly has the best mass appeal but with every month that passes it looks more outdated . its really only a matter of time now before something comes along that will offer mass appeal and better graphics . i like wow but i m realistic about it . theres no way it ll maintain its current popularity . the exodus when it happens to another game will be rapid . having said that i m sure wow will be around in some diminished form for its 10 th or even 15 th birthday .

World of Warcraft DOES NOT have 11 million active subscribers. When are you idiots that keep saying this going to get a brain?

Since World of Warcraft's initial release 11 million accounts have been created. This does not mean all of these accounts are active.

Certainly a few million players are currently subscribed but that's about it. This doesn't include China subs.

And no WoW is not that great of a game. it came along and filled a niche that needed filling. There timing couldn't have been more perfect. Ever think of why their forums are 90% complaints?

Originally posted by Dinasty

World of Warcraft DOES NOT have 11 million active subscribers. When are you idiots that keep saying this going to get a brain?

Since World of Warcraft's initial release 11 million accounts have been created. This does not mean all of these accounts are active.

Certainly a few million players are currently subscribed but that's about it. This doesn't include China subs.

And no WoW is not that great of a game. it came along and filled a niche that needed filling. There timing couldn't have been more perfect. Ever think of why their forums are 90% complaints?

 

Blizzard defines subscribers as those who have paid a subscription fee or are using an active prepaid card, as well as those who have purchased the game and are within their free month of access. Internet Game Room players who have accessed the game during the last 30 days are also counted as subscribers, but players under free promotional subscriptions, expired or canceled subscriptions and expired prepaid cards are excluded.

www.joystiq.com/2008/01/22/world-of-warcraft-surpasses-10-million-subscribers-now-half-the/

Now Im not a WoW fanboy, actualy I find the game boring.  But I do think  close to 11 million people are currently playing the game and Im sure more than 11 million accounts have been made. 

But your right about 2 million people playing in the USA, but why do you exclude China? oh thats right because thats where the bulk of the WoW subscribers are from.  Even if they are gold farmers they are still considered a subscriber in Blizzards eyes.

Originally posted by cukimunga

Originally posted by Dinasty

World of Warcraft DOES NOT have 11 million active subscribers. When are you idiots that keep saying this going to get a brain?

Since World of Warcraft's initial release 11 million accounts have been created. This does not mean all of these accounts are active.

Certainly a few million players are currently subscribed but that's about it. This doesn't include China subs.

And no WoW is not that great of a game. it came along and filled a niche that needed filling. There timing couldn't have been more perfect. Ever think of why their forums are 90% complaints?

 

Blizzard defines subscribers as those who have paid a subscription fee or are using an active prepaid card, as well as those who have purchased the game and are within their free month of access. Internet Game Room players who have accessed the game during the last 30 days are also counted as subscribers, but players under free promotional subscriptions, expired or canceled subscriptions and expired prepaid cards are excluded.

www.joystiq.com/2008/01/22/world-of-warcraft-surpasses-10-million-subscribers-now-half-the/

Now Im not a WoW fanboy, actualy I find the game boring.  But I do think  close to 11 million people are currently playing the game and Im sure more than 11 million accounts have been made. 

 

But your right about 2 million people playing in the USA, but why do you exclude China? oh thats right because thats where the bulk of the WoW subscribers are from.  Even if they are gold farmers they are still considered a subscriber in Blizzards eyes.

Active paying subscribers = 11.5 million confirmed by Activison Blizzard in the latest financial reports actually (May 2009). Around 1 BILLION dollars yearly revenu ... and no it is not coming from some illegal Columbian drug dealing  either ... :)

The only reason why it stayed the same as Jan 2009 is by the simple fact WotLK was blocked in China to be launched.

Blizzard has now a new publisher in China as of June 2009. So the moment WotLK will launch there, expect it to raise even further.

As for US/EU it is around the 4.5 M to 5 M sub  market. One can trace this through diffferent methods by using Xfire and see the relations in time - competition and by sheer volume of servers (250+ in EU alone). As 10K per server is the normal working load for fantasy based mmorpg's.

Expect the usual yearly dip in all mmorpg play from May to June and a rise as of July/Aug (vacation). But a dip in players/playing time does not mean cancelled subs either.

---

The good thing of it all is that even on lower populations, Wow is nice to play because it is not solely depending on high populated servers either.

And the new Russian launched servers (coming from deleted English ones with 90% Russian players) showed server merges (IF ever needed in the future) are a breeze to implement.

Expect Wow to run till 2030 and beyond :))). My characters will probably live longer than myself. I arranged already my legacy for them (LOL). So Wow will owe me some day probably. :)))

---

I also doubt it will drop "suddenly" because Wow is becoming not only mainstream (known OUTSIDE of the gaming markets) but the competition is nowhere at the moment.

Those of us who played Wotlk and analysed a bit the TECHNIQUES used in that expansion (3D vertical world design - phasing - destructable buidings - minigames) know the bar in TECHNIQUES was raised again.

Making for an even bigger gap than it was 3 years ago.

So to "beat" it you have to conquer: the hearts of die hard fans - better the techniques used - have more development - offer more playing options - counter the mainstream effect of the cult.

Those who are expecting it to just "go away" or "melt away" should have learned the lessons from last years "Wow killer" launches.

WoW is a great game Zorn - but one day the throne will be taken by someone else and WoW will be a nostalgic fix just like EQ today. The question is when that will happen and my guess is as good as yours but I am willing to bet my testicles on the fact that it is way earlier than 2030 ;)

And regarding the gap - it is smaller today than 3 years ago since WoW is aging and it starts to shine through. Both AoC and WAR showed two things - 1) Polish is everything and they failed in that regard and 2) The hunger in many players to test something new.

Originally posted by Dinasty

World of Warcraft DOES NOT have 11 million active subscribers. When are you idiots that keep saying this going to get a brain?

Since World of Warcraft's initial release 11 million accounts have been created. This does not mean all of these accounts are active.

Certainly a few million players are currently subscribed but that's about it. This doesn't include China subs.

And no WoW is not that great of a game. it came along and filled a niche that needed filling. There timing couldn't have been more perfect. Ever think of why their forums are 90% complaints?

 

4 post in and you're already showing this community that you do not know what you are talking about.

I'll only disagree on the endless content statement.  WoW is incredibly polished and for a lot of people it can be very fun.  The content is the biggest downside to it.  After reaching max level you end up doing the same things over and over and over.  After the first few times it's not fun anymore.  I didn't enjoy the grind to max much either.  For me it was a very boring game that I only played for as long as I did because I had some great friends to play with.

Also, I want to point out that the subscriber base doesn't imply that it's the best game.  As anyone will tell you, WoW is simplified to the point that a small child can play it; in fact, several do.  The game can be run at max settings on almost any pc, and it can be played on a mac.  They've done everything they can to make the game playable by almost anyone.  That's not necessarily a bad thing, just a legitimate reason for its success.

I'll say that it is a great game.  Blizzard definitely knew what they were doing and WoW has brought a lot of fun to a lot of people.  In reality, there is no 'best game' because the best game depends on the player.  My best game may not be your best game, it's all opinionative.   The main problem that a lot of people have with WoW, including myself, isn't that the game is bad but rather that its success has fooled so many people into thinking that it's the best game out there.  Developers try to copy it to capitalize on its success, thinking that a game just like it will appeal to as many players.  In turn, developers have, en masse, decided to recreate it several times resulting in what we call WoW clones.  A very large portion of MMORPG players are sick to death of these games.  We crave something new and no company that can deliver has.  They all use their resources to recreate WoW, and that game then fails because as many have said - you can't outWoW WoW.  People won't leave their game for another version of it and leave their friends and characters behind.

It's definitely a game worth playing and I'm glad you're enjoying it again; I only wish that I still could.

Originally posted by Dinasty

World of Warcraft DOES NOT have 11 million active subscribers. When are you idiots that keep saying this going to get a brain?

Since World of Warcraft's initial release 11 million accounts have been created. This does not mean all of these accounts are active.

Certainly a few million players are currently subscribed but that's about it. This doesn't include China subs.

And no WoW is not that great of a game. it came along and filled a niche that needed filling. There timing couldn't have been more perfect. Ever think of why their forums are 90% complaints?

 

Here's a nice quote for you.

"Blizzard defines subscribers as those who have paid a subscription fee or are using an active prepaid card, as well as those who have purchased the game and are within their free month of access. Internet Game Room players who have accessed the game during the last 30 days are also counted as subscribers, but players under free promotional subscriptions, expired or canceled subscriptions and expired prepaid cards are excluded."

Taken from here.
 

If WoW told us how many people had subscribed since the game launched the number would be staggering.  Lineage 2, last I checked, had over 19 million subscribers since it's launch.

Also, it didn't fill a niche, it created one.  It took a genre of game that was originally dominated by nerds, such as myself, and made it widely available to anyone and everyone.  It advertised and it made gameplay so silky smooth that it would be hard not to enjoy, at least at first.  You add to that the gigantic fanbase it had from Warcraft 1-3 and you've got a blockbuster.

The reason the forums are 90% complaints is simple.  The people that enjoy the game are busy playing it.  Do some research and you'll find that most posts made in game forums will be about problems the players are having.  It's not because the game is bad but because the majority of players are too busy enjoying the game to make pointless "I'm enjoying this game" posts.  Would you do that?  Probably not, but I bet you'd make a post if a quest was bugged or an item was broken.

Everything you've said has been inaccurate and yet you have the nerve to call the rest of us idiots.  Next time spend a little time learning what you're talking about instead of stroking your e-peen and trying to be a bigshot on a forum.  Got to love the characters you find on the internet.

Originally posted by Kayless

Originally posted by Ethian

Its simply a great game which new MMORPGs coming out try to match. No company will outdue WoW in a long long time unless a company grows some balls and takes some risks...

Whats everyones thoughts??

My thoughts... well, tbh it pisses me off when people say this, open your eyes and stop being so niaive. Companies don't launch MMO's "to try to compete with WoW". They launch what they hope is a cool MMO and to make some money.

Years ago all the original MMO's came out. For eg. EQ, Asheron's Call and DAoC which is still my personal favourite. All were successful, some still still are going strong, you don't NEED 11.5mill subs to be "successful" as much as some of you small minded fools seem convinced of. You're the ones banding it around like it's your own personal ePeen.

Look at how well EVE has done, a real slow burner, 6 years old this week and stronger than ever. Do you think they give a shit about WoW. Of course they don't. They're making a ton of money, creating, running and playing a game they love.

Is WoW a great game and polished to the hilt, for sure, but it's just a fluke really. Is any MMO ever going to get those kind of subs again, not a hope in hell. As new MMO's come along of course they're not going to complete with WoW. $115mill a month buys alot of polish. A MMO from a standing start is never going to be on the same level. Nobody seems to realise this when they're making they're sweeping statements.

Open you eyes...

?? LOL
 

I could care less how many people play WoW...I dont follow the crowd, I never have. I only posted what I had experienced since leaving WoW 2 years ago.

From my experiences, the content and polish WoW offers is simply unmatched atm. Of coursee it depends on the gamer and what they perfer but when it comes right down to it....Theres nothing unique out there presently. I've played em all. Their all the same, just a different pile LOL. WoW is by far the best bang for your buck IMO.

I strongly agree with afew of the people who posted here. We need something new...How long before a company (or Blizzard themselves) grows some nuts and launches something totally different then anything we've seen? I dont know about you all, but sinces EQ2 / WoWs release we've seen nothing creative and fresh in the MMORPG world.

Originally posted by Sikhander

WoW is a great game Zorn - but one day the throne will be taken by someone else and WoW will be a nostalgic fix just like EQ today. The question is when that will happen and my guess is as good as yours but I am willing to bet my testicles on the fact that it is way earlier than 2030 ;)

And regarding the gap - it is smaller today than 3 years ago since WoW is aging and it starts to shine through. Both AoC and WAR showed two things - 1) Polish is everything and they failed in that regard and 2) The hunger in many players to test something new.

The gap is bigger than ever. Bigger in revenus, but certainly bigger in using the techniques in a lively open world.

People do tend to be very spoiled rapidly. The first time you enter the 3D vertical build up world of Northrend ...

The first time you do the first mounted boss fights in Ulduar...

But like I said people tend to be spoiled very fast... and that's the reason TWO DOZEN mmorpg launched in the last 4 years without ... ANY significant impact on Wow's success. We are not talking about one, two or three, but we are talking ALL mmorpg's with a paid subs base launched in the last ... 4 years.

You don't need to cite War or AoC, but cite also EQ2, LotrO, Vanguard, Tabula Rasa, Hellgate L, PotBS, L2, Ad&D, DF, Spellborn, CoH, ....

You name an mmorpg that HAS a paid subscription and was launched at the same time or after Wow and that had ANY serious impact on Wow subs ..... Not even EVE could come in the neighbourhood.

And why these games don't have any impact like in lowering the Wow sales hit charts of PC's or number of subs...

The gap widens everytime. WotLK 2009 is miles above the techniques used in Wow 2005.

WotLK 2009 is miles above the Wow of 2005 in flying mounts, real 3D worlds, polishment, phasing, destructable buildings, mounted combat, intelligent boss tactics in Raids. Even the graphics and polygon counts were already changed.

MJ said it months ago: We had to redo War after having viewed TBC. Everytime you conquer a "Keep" in War now and you see the difference in techniques used of HOW a Keep should come down in a PvP envirmont in WotLK, you know already that the competition is 3 years behind.

And that gap is also based on resources of course. ... as in money for development.

A picture is worth a thousands words: in Wotlk you take your personal epic flying mount and fly freely over Northrend .. in War you go to a flightmaster and you get a ... loading screen of a fixed animation screen.

How could anyone not see the differences...

The hunger is there but only for the product that will offer better value for the money .... and that's the BIG problem.... no one has the money to raise the Blizzard bar further....

 And then there are the dreamers of sandboxes of course... Quit the Wow model, go for sandboxes and "free style" mmorpg's. Listen guys: the competition can't even come up with good liniair style mmo's, let alone have control over such thin air ideas as sandboxes.