This is a long rant so the TLDR is game devs need to stop trying to make their games like WoW just to bring in player numbers.

I am so tired of seeing game developers making games to make money. Yes the idea of selling a game is to get money, but what happen to coming up with an idea for a great story, that was forged out of care and love and turned into a wonderful game world, then producing that game not to become rich, but share this world that you think is immersive and wonderful with thousands of other people? Ultima Online and Everquest are two great examples of this.

PLAYER NUMBERS DOES NOT EQUAL A SUCCESSFUL GAME!

It just does not. Would it be great to have a game that produced 11 million players? Yes, yes it would, but does it take 11 million users to make a game successful? No it does not. It does not even take 1 million to make a game successful nor does it mean that said game is great or better then any other.

Think about back in the day when you had such games as Everquest, Star Wars Galaxies, and Dark Age of Camelot. Those games did not even come close to the number of players that World of Warcraft sports today, and you know what? Many of us still look back at those games lovingly because back then, those games were GREAT, and some might say were the best of their time or were the best ever. We loved those games; we spent hours, days, and weeks playing them. We didn’t need no WoW clone to make them great games, what made them great games were people who came up with a idea for a world, crafted the world, turned that world into a game, and let thousands of players work together in those worlds online to over come amazing odds such as slaying dragons. Not raiding for T5 gear. Not farming faction. Not doing 1000 instance runs to become attuned. Not farming battlegrounds for 100 weeks to get "welfare" epics. Not having the same damn UI, Classes and everything else it seems everyone is trying to copy.

You still have games today going like Age of Conan, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes (and even the people playing this are getting made at SOE for WoWifing the game) and many more who have low player bases but yet still are going. It proves you do not need 11 million players to make a game that will stand the test of time. Hell I still play EQOA the Everquest version for the Playstation 2. Do you think that game has tons of players? No, it doesn’t. Yet it still holds enough players after 6 years to keep it alive. The same can be said for Everquest and UO.

So please, for the love of the games. Stop trying to make MMORPGs that are similar to WoW just because you want huge player numbers. It is not going to work as we have seen time and time again. Blizzard took what they thought was best in other MMORPGs and improved upon it to make what they felt would be a good MMORPG and they succeeded. They did not try to make a copy of Everquest, or Star Wars Galaxies just to get player numbers. I say you take a lesson from them and take ideas from other MMOs including WoW that were good, but IMPROVE upon them.

We don’t need anymore WoWified games. We have enough of them. If I wanted to play WoW I would play it, I don’t need to play a new game to play WoW. Hell I am so sick and tired of WoW that I went back to 6 year old MMORPG and honestly have been having more fun in it then I ever did in WoW. And I have to say I find it sad, that all these new games are trying to hard to bring in player numbers by trying to copy wow that I find a 6 year old MMORPG more fun then the new stuff being cramed down our throats.

Just remember, you do not need a ton of players to make a good game. Making a good game, makes the game good. Not having 11 million players. So make up a world that players would love to play it, craft the game the way you want to, make it fun, do what makes you happy, stop trying to rush out unfinished games just to meet demand, stop trying to please everyone, decide how YOU want the game to be and make the game that way, and don’t worry about what features WoW has that you could copy because players loved it.

I respectfully disagree. I think the best chance a developer and publisher has of getting huge return on their investment is to make a game very much like World of Warcraft. They just need to market it properly, i.e. no hype, so that they can launch when they want to and smoothly. Then they can grow over time as word of mouth travels, and then start the hyping once they know the game can handle more people.

From a gameplay point of view: Absolutely, shy away from the WoW-isms

From a marketing point of view: Stick to WoW's formular as closely as possible

Originally posted by Sotik

This is a long rant so the TLDR is game devs need to stop trying to make their games like WoW just to bring in player numbers.

 

I am so tired of seeing game developers making games to make money. Yes the idea of selling a game is to get money, but what happen to coming up with an idea for a great story, that was forged out of care and love and turned into a wonderful game world, then producing that game not to become rich, but share this world that you think is immersive and wonderful with thousands of other people? Ultima Online and Everquest are two great examples of this.

 

PLAYER NUMBERS DOES NOT EQUAL A SUCCESSFUL GAME!

 

It just does not. Would it be great to have a game that produced 11 million players? Yes, yes it would, but does it take 11 million users to make a game successful? No it does not. It does not even take 1 million to make a game successful nor does it mean that said game is great or better then any other.

 

Think about back in the day when you had such games as Everquest, Star Wars Galaxies, and Dark Age of Camelot. Those games did not even come close to the number of players that World of Warcraft sports today, and you know what? Many of us still look back at those games lovingly because back then, those games were GREAT, and some might say were the best of their time or were the best ever. We loved those games; we spent hours, days, and weeks playing them. We didn’t need no WoW clone to make them great games, what made them great games were people who came up with a idea for a world, crafted the world, turned that world into a game, and let thousands of players work together in those worlds online to over come amazing odds such as slaying dragons. Not raiding for T5 gear. Not farming faction. Not doing 1000 instance runs to become attuned. Not farming battlegrounds for 100 weeks to get "welfare" epics. Not having the same damn UI, Classes and everything else it seems everyone is trying to copy.

 

You still have games today going like Age of Conan, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes (and even the people playing this are getting made at SOE for WoWifing the game) and many more who have low player bases but yet still are going. It proves you do not need 11 million players to make a game that will stand the test of time. Hell I still play EQOA the Everquest version for the Playstation 2. Do you think that game has tons of players? No, it doesn’t. Yet it still holds enough players after 6 years to keep it alive. The same can be said for Everquest and UO.

 

So please, for the love of the games. Stop trying to make MMORPGs that are similar to WoW just because you want huge player numbers. It is not going to work as we have seen time and time again. Blizzard took what they thought was best in other MMORPGs and improved upon it to make what they felt would be a good MMORPG and they succeeded. They did not try to make a copy of Everquest, or Star Wars Galaxies just to get player numbers. I say you take a lesson from them and take ideas from other MMOs including WoW that were good, but IMPROVE upon them.

 

We don’t need anymore WoWified games. We have enough of them. If I wanted to play WoW I would play it, I don’t need to play a new game to play WoW. Hell I am so sick and tired of WoW that I went back to 6 year old MMORPG and honestly have been having more fun in it then I ever did in WoW. And I have to say I find it sad, that all these new games are trying to hard to bring in player numbers by trying to copy wow that I find a 6 year old MMORPG more fun then the new stuff being cramed down our throats.

 

Just remember, you do not need a ton of players to make a good game. Making a good game, makes the game good. Not having 11 million players. So make up a world that players would love to play it, craft the game the way you want to, make it fun, do what makes you happy, stop trying to rush out unfinished games just to meet demand, stop trying to please everyone, decide how YOU want the game to be and make the game that way, and don’t worry about what features WoW has that you could copy because players loved it.

Success = subjective to the creator's goal.

/endthread

A successful game is entirely subjective, but I will assert with a great deal of confidence that a profitable game is a successful game.

Players paying for a game make a game profitable. The more players paying, the greater the opportunity for profit.

Thus, while there are definitely variables involved in any calculation such as this, the more players you have the greater your chance for profit and the greater an opportunity for success.

The players will make any new game into WoW. There's too many of them that are used to the same thing that will cry if it's not like WoW. And anyone worried about the bottom line will cave eventually.

Sotik man i totally agree with ya bro.  Like everything you said is right.  And everyone you disagree is totally like retarded.  Sotik hit me with a pm with your aim or any messanger.  I need a persons view like yours for something i think about writing about.

Originally posted by chaosxs

Sotik man i totally agree with ya bro.  Like everything you said is right.  And everyone you disagree is totally like retarded.  Sotik hit me with a pm with your aim or any messanger.  I need a persons view like yours for something i think about writing about.

chaosxs hits BRYANBARTLEY with a personal attack!

BRYANBARTLEY takes 0 damage.

A game that sells well and makes a siginificant profit is in fact succesful.  A product makng a profit, which is the whole point of selling it, makes it a success.    There are varying degrees of success of course.  Some people might think AC2 was a success, because if they enjoyed it, it must be succesful.  The thing is, theres not a damn thing succesful about a MMO that has to shut its doors in 2 years.  

REAL world success means making a profit.  If loads of people are playing your game that means you have happy players.  So, loads of happy players + profit means success.  Opinion really doesn't matter at that point.  In the bussiness world that is a success.   Why?  The opinion of loads of people playing means more than some people complaining on forums.

Taking heed is what you need.

Anyone thought about that the games made in the USA are like b-movies and that the games made in Japan are like Oscar winning Hollywood movies.

Did you ever ponder on that my friend?

Originally posted by Josher

A game that sells well and makes a siginificant profit is in fact succesful.  A product makng a profit, which is the whole point of selling it, makes it a success.    There are varying degrees of success of course.  Some people might think AC2 was a success, because if they enjoyed it, it must be succesful.  The thing is, theres not a damn thing succesful about a MMO that has to shut its doors in 2 years.  

REAL world success means making a profit.  If loads of people are playing your game that means you have happy players.  So, loads of happy players + profit means success.  Opinion really doesn't matter at that point.  In the bussiness world that is a success.   Why?  The opinion of loads of people playing means more than some people complaining on forums.

Again having a massive load of player numbers does not mean that a game is going to be successful. Lets look at AoC, a game that had a HUGE following, a game that had a ton of players when it first launched now still alive only because a handful of players are playing it, keeping it alive. Just because it had a huge numbers of players at the start doesn't mean it was successful now does it? And obviously it’s doing good enough to stay afloat without those players. So they are doing something right.

However lets look at a game that is clearly a clone of WoW. Warhammer Online. Why is that game slowly dying? Clearly making a game more like WoW = Success as you all seem to think, and so having a game that clearly steals everything from WoW should mean they are rolling around in a gazillion dollars because games are not made for people to play and enjoy, no they are get rich quick schemes like you all so clearly love to point out. Oh wait because making a clone of WoW doesn't guarantee you that you will have a successful let alone a good game.

Everyone is worried about money, money, money. There use to be a day that games were made so the people making them could share the worlds they crafted with the masses of people. Everquest was not made to bring in one million players, but because the guys who made that world did so while playing Dungeons and Dragons and felt it was a greatly crafted world, and old MMORPG vets will say that game was way better then WoW. Fact many of those people still play Everquest because they haven’t found anything better then it, including WoW.

Or here we go a great example. Star Wars Galaxies. Tell me how many millions of players did that have? They were in the thousands not millions, yet that game became horrible and lost a ton of players ONLY because SOE tried to turn it into a WoWified game and it became horrible afterwards. Yet it is still alive with people playing it.

No copying WoW does not mean you will bring in 11 million players. And having 11 million players does not mean your game successful, it only means it is MORE successful then the other games, your game can easily survive with only a thousand players playing it, go look at UO, Everquest, Ryzom and those games if you need proof of that. Game developers need to start making games for the players, not because they want the big fat wallets Blizzard has.

Just because people are hooked on crack and those selling it are making money off of it doesn't mean if I try to make a crack substitute I will be successful.

Remember, Blizzard didn't make their game to become rich. They made it because they felt they could make a MMORPG better then everyone else, and they did. So if someone wants to cash in on that, they need to stop trying to recreate WoW but to make a game better then WoWand where does that start? Not in trying to make a ton of money, but in making a great world they feel players can get into.

Now I will go back to my 6 year old games. If you all wish to keep playing failed MMO after failed MMO  because they are to worried about how they can get all those players from WoW into their game instead of worrying about making a good game, then be my guess. I will stick with the oldies but goodies until the game devs pull their heads out of their arses and make a game for the sake of making a game, not to become rich quick.
 

Originally posted by Sotik

This is a long rant so the TLDR is game devs need to stop trying to make their games like WoW just to bring in player numbers.

 

I am so tired of seeing game developers making games to make money. Yes the idea of selling a game is to get money, but what happen to coming up with an idea for a great story, that was forged out of care and love and turned into a wonderful game world, then producing that game not to become rich, but share this world that you think is immersive and wonderful with thousands of other people? Ultima Online and Everquest are two great examples of this.

 

Ok, so you want something different from WoW. Many players agree with you, and so do I.

However, you're just plain wrong if you think that UO and EQ were made for different reasons or motivations than WoW or WAR or Tabula Rasa, or any other MMOrpg.

They're all made for the same reason, to make money. Yes, UO and EQ were made not for love, but for money. And so was WoW and every WoW clone. So get over this part, and make your case for the game you want, but don't think for a moment any developer in the history fo game making is making games for love and not money.

If I"m wrong, then show me one game developer slaving away making a game, either an indie or commercial developer, saying, gee I just love making this game, but I hope it's a complete failure and nobody plays it and I don't make any money.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Sotik

This is a long rant so the TLDR is game devs need to stop trying to make their games like WoW just to bring in player numbers.

 

I am so tired of seeing game developers making games to make money. Yes the idea of selling a game is to get money, but what happen to coming up with an idea for a great story, that was forged out of care and love and turned into a wonderful game world, then producing that game not to become rich, but share this world that you think is immersive and wonderful with thousands of other people? Ultima Online and Everquest are two great examples of this.

 

 

Ok, so you want something different from WoW. Many players agree with you, and so do I.

However, you're just plain wrong if you think that UO and EQ were made for different reasons or motivations than WoW or WAR or Tabula Rasa, or any other MMOrpg.

They're all made for the same reason, to make money. Yes, UO and EQ were made not for love, but for money. And so was WoW and every WoW clone. So get over this part, and make your case for the game you want, but don't think for a moment any developer in the history fo game making is making games for love and not money.

If I"m wrong, then show me one game developer slaving away making a game, either an indie or commercial developer, saying, gee I just love making this game, but I hope it's a complete failure and nobody plays it and I don't make any money.

I think the point he's trying to make is that devs fall into that perilous place where sacrifice quality to rush to make money.  The key is to develop from the standpoint of quality versus the influence of possible profit.  I say let marketting departments take a back seat and let the dev/studios develop with all their creative juices.  If the do this, then perhaps something new is birthed, and perhaps the "next big thing" emerges (and of course the $$$ start rolling in).  Sotik understands that it's about making money... that's not the argument here, it's that game devs loose their focus and can become blinded by just wanting to making money as the prime motivating factor.  When that occurs, then the dev runs the risk of making a sub-par world, and poor quality product... then they wonder, why didn't it work, it's just like WoW?
 

I've worked for both SEGA and SCEA a combined 14 years to know full well that a lot of the times, when the dev/studio house is pressured by marketting to make that "next WoW" that the product fails, and their projected profits flush down the toilet of obscurity.  The main problem with game development these days is that models are taken from other models that have proven successful in the past, and this is a falacy that Marketting departments in most game companies implement as a business strategy.

What needs to be done?  Marketting needs to take a back seat, and give their trust to the studio/dev teams in order for the next big thing to hit the shelves.  Until then, be prepared to see more clones of clones of clones, and so forth etc...  That is until a gaming studio somewhere has total power and control over their game.

Originally posted by Dreamagram

I respectfully disagree. I think the best chance a developer and publisher has of getting huge return on their investment is to make a game very much like World of Warcraft. They just need to market it properly, i.e. no hype, so that they can launch when they want to and smoothly. Then they can grow over time as word of mouth travels, and then start the hyping once they know the game can handle more people.

I have to agree.

OP, there are several things that you might be overlooking.

First off, given the risks involved, no company (or very few) is going to say "hey, let's just make a great game instead of going for the money... I have all sorts of ideas involving permadeath and full loot...."

The amount of money that it takes to create these things is considerable. Throw in the fact that the game playing public is fickle at best and why would any company even try? Seriously.

They probably try because they believe in what they do and they think they can make a great game. Then the money starts to dry up and people start worrying if the game will launch and if it will launch with enough subs to keep going.

True, they might not have to copy wow but they do need to look at WoW's successes.

It's pretty clear that if one wants to make a successful game they have to look at gaming trends.

But no one starts off with "hey, let's make a game and launch it poorly and let's have it have all sorts of bugs".

These development studios truly believe they can do it. And then suddenly reality sets in that maybe some of the decisions they are making might not work and maybe they won't get enough subs or now that they are well enough along they realize that the game they are making isn't very compelling (hello, I'm looking at you Gods and Heroes) but now they have all sorts of investment.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If players are unhappy with the way game studios are making games, find a game studio you like and a game that they are making that you like and invest.

If you feel that games shouldn't be like WoW, it is not the game companies fault it is the players fault. Large game companies make games to make money, if people keep buying games that are like WoW, companies will keep making games like WoW.

But having said that I bet you are part of the problem OP, I bet you have bought a lot of the games you dislike. Also when was the last time you played an Indie MMO? The problem is the companies who are going to go against the flow are the indie developers. However being indie developers they can't afford as nice of graphics, or as smooth of a UI. So then players look at it and go well I only like good graphics so I won't play that, instead I'll pick up the next WoW clone with the nice graphics and cool looking spells.

What people keep forgetting is the consumers are who drive the products, not the game companies.

first off i admit to not having read the entire thread but i just want to make a quick point which never seems to be made...

developers != (NOT equal) the people with the money

I would bet that somewhere between 90 and 100% of all game developers do their job out of love for the work. Making a game (and an mmo) is very hard work so to say that the developers themselves are doing it just for money is just plain wrong imo...Even the MMOs that fail didnt do so because "the developers released the game and wanted to make a quicl buck" but because their investors most likely didnt realise what would happen