Originally posted by JB47394

Personal responsibility is clearly axiomatic. We have to be responsible for our actions. That applies to the guy playing the MMO until he harms himself.

It also applies to the people who built the game in the first place.

The company that built the game is populated by people. They are responsible for their actions. They built something that somebody killed themselves with. They should be taking a hard look at the product that they built and figure out how it can be made safer. That is THEIR responsibility.

The man who harms himself playing a game has to take a hard look at what he's doing with his life. That's HIS responsibility.

This is not a case of either/or. It requires both sides to take a hard look at what's going on.

 K, so how do you propose we apply this to gunmakers, the tabaco industry, the auto industry, the makers of Alcohol etc etc etc.

 These all make items that people kill themselves with on a DAILY basis. There are thousands more that will kill themselves by drinking themselves to death this year (many underage) then there will be gaming deaths. Why is it if theress 4-5 gaming deaths a year thats major big time Bad but hundreds and thousands of deaths from suicide, driving too fast, smoking etc are just a fact of life? What makes Gaming the big bad guy?

  Sure put a warning lable on games, just like there are on cigarets / alcohol. Guess we should really put warning lables on guns, knives, cars and anything else that is a product that people kill themselves with or so your post seems to infer?

  I'd guess that if you looked it up there are more people killed in a year by rocks (Hit by, fallen on, tripped  over etc) then by Gaming.  Since most rocks are not man made is it ok for us not to put warning lables on them? (and what about the ones that are man made?) Sorry getting silly there but couldn't help it ;)

The company makes a GAME, for people to play and enjoy. It is up to PEOPLE themselves, what they want to do with themselves. Why in the world should someone who develops a game, a group of artists, programers, writers, be held responsable for someone who decides to play it to death?

People die doing all sorts of things. Every single hobby that exists in the world, their's "extremists" of it. People who do nothing but that, and love the hell out of it. I'm sure people have died from many other hobbies, too.

Basically, YOU are resposable for yourself. The company didn't think "let's make a game and hope people kill themselves on it!".

I'm absolutely sick and tired of people blaming the media, and gave devs etc, for their own responsabilities. Sorry, I don't mean to sound heartless, but if someone dies due to playing an MMO, it is entirely your fault and you are the only one to blame. The developers, nor anyone else should have anything to do with it.

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Originally posted by winter
What makes Gaming the big bad guy?

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I don't believe I was vilifying the gaming industry. There are far more egregious cases of company products being misused, mishandled or which are simply unsafe. The fact that few die as a result of gaming products doesn't mean that the industry should be content with the structure of their products.

If you don't think that death is enough of a problem, we can talk about the tendency of players to spend inordinate amounts of time playing MMOs. I don't consider that a healthy trait of gaming. It may not kill, but it's not helping the affected players.

Originally posted by Adam1902

........

I'm absolutely sick and tired of people blaming the media, and gave devs etc, for their own responsabilities. Sorry, I don't mean to sound heartless, but if someone dies due to playing an MMO, it is entirely your fault and you are the only one to blame. The developers, nor anyone else should have anything to do with it.

My fault? I just posted on a forum. Hows a guy dying from his own stupidity my fault?! ; )

Gun sellers have regulations. Gun owners are responsible for their property. Same gose for alcohol, automobiles etc.

I wouldn't be putting video games in the same catergory as firearms, alcohol and vehicles. Especially if you are defending them. I mean video games are harmless. Right?

Do corporations have any responsiblity to the community that they make money from?

No one is immune to responsibilty. If corporations can claim the same rights as an individual, surely they become responsible too?

Another thought. You can take a persons life without killing their body.

There is a more basic question here.  There are people in our society that are flat out of their minds.  Where do you draw the line to have them committed against their will?  Usually when a person goes down that hill those close to them see the problem, but have no idea how to deal with it.  The person gets no help until they do something REALLY outrageous like commit suicide or drink themselves into the hospital, or try to kill someone.  It would be beneficial to the person and to society if they got help sooner, but its really hard to know when to stop a person when they are just acting crazy and have not done anything criminal yet.

You might be inclined to ask "Why? why is it ok for people to die playing a game?" \

Because f*** em thats why

dummies die people without disorders live.

You two are crazy. I mean how can you think that people are responsible for themselves and at the same time believe that there are people that cannot be responsible for themselves or their actions.

Is being inadequate and being crazy the same thing?

What is best for the world? The world was here before us, it doesn't owe us a damned thing.

How can you say that you speak for society? Or are you the spokesperson for a separate society?

Why is it okay for people to die at all for anything other than natural causes?

Fact is people die all the time, by the time I finish typing this up there could be close to 100 people that have died already.  It's a vicious cycle and may sound harsh but if people wouldn't die (natural or otherwise) we would all die from overpopulation.

Developers should not be responsible for the deaths of these people.  Tobacco kills hundreds of thousands of people every year but you don't hear anything about them having to do anything other than print out warning labels.  People know the consequences; if they don't want to take them into consideration then they alone can reap the rewards.

No one is immune from responsibility. That includes people playing the game as well as the company. I am not suggesting that they be put on trial for manslaughter in the first degree.

Why are you worried about being thought of as harsh? If the world is a dangerous place why should you be singled out?

People still buy cigarettes. I smoke. It's about being informed. Some people must get off on the fact that they think they are out smarting others into doing something they don't know is bad for them. Whatever.

The more the MMOG industry tries to ignore this issue, the worse it will become. Better to take an agressive approach to it than waiting for some dramatic set of circumstances to bring it to the wider publics attention.

If you don't learn from the mistakes of the past you are bound to repeat them. In particular other peoples/companies mistakes.

Originally posted by nothing2gein

Because people are responsible for themselves. Not the game company, not the government.

Well, from a standpoint of pure self-interest, it is in the company's interest to take some responsibility.  Having a public perception that your product is just another form of leisure activity is good for business.  Having a public perception that your product leads to obsessive, occasionally fatal behavior is bad for business.

Several Korean companies have created in-game systems designed specifically to combat excessive playing.  I don't think it's a bad move from a business standpoint.

Originally posted by nothing2gein

Because people are responsible for themselves. Not the game company, not the government.

Thank God someone figured that out.

Seriously. Why is it that people think government is the solution? It's not- it's the problem. I don't trust the government with my goddamn mail.

With all the new "czars" we have in the States, why not one for online gaming enforcement?

The less role the government has in my life, the better. To me, they are responsible for providing the most basic of services and protecting the sovereignty of the nation. Outside of that, not their business or place.

Originally posted by JB47394

 

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Originally posted by winter
What makes Gaming the big bad guy?

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I don't believe I was vilifying the gaming industry. There are far more egregious cases of company products being misused, mishandled or which are simply unsafe. The fact that few die as a result of gaming products doesn't mean that the industry should be content with the structure of their products.

If you don't think that death is enough of a problem, we can talk about the tendency of players to spend inordinate amounts of time playing MMOs. I don't consider that a healthy trait of gaming. It may not kill, but it's not helping the affected players.

How much time someone spends playing an MMO, or doing anything else in their own home, is not of any concern to you, the government, anyone.

If I choose to use heroin and I overdose, it is my fault. No fault lies with the source or distributor...they were providing a service in exchange for money, and I knew the risk going in. Maybe it had some adulterants in it that shut my heart down. Still my fault. I made the decision to buy illicit drugs off the street. No fault lies with the source. No fault lies with the manufacturer of the syringe, or the person who referred me...or does it? Hell, if we're going that route: it's my ex's fault! Yeah, I'm going to sue her because after six years I proposed to her and she said yes, and then a week later, she's leaving me and had been with another guy for several months. Her fault! She pushed me to it! Let's put regulations on when you can and can't break-up with someone or cheat on them. I'm all for it.

Seriously, people have got to get their heads out of the clouds and get planted in reality. Regulation does not lead to a utopia, or to more fulfillment in life, or any such thing. All it does is limit the freedoms for those of us who are not afraid to be responsible for our own actions.

I challenge you or anyone else to explain to me why exactly it is that you, or worse, the government, can decide what is and is not best for me. Who are you to challenge, criticize, or condemn how I spend my leisure time; or how I spend any of my own time? Perhaps I'm not a contributing member to society because I play MMORPG's hours a day, or use previously aforementioned substances. 

It's my life. I make my own choices. I do things that are bad for me. Really bad. Frequently. But again, it's my choice and the responsibility and repercussions rest solely on me.

I cannot stand the mentality that other people or the government know better. Like hell they do. People live in their own goddamn way and should have every right to. Don't force your beliefs, lifestyle, or virtues on me or anyone else.

And it really depresses me that most of us Americans are so goddamn blind to what's happening right in front of us. The government is growing and expanding at an unprecedented rate that started many years ago and has only been potentiated by Bush and Obama. We have strayed so far from the original idea of America and the principles our founders set forth.

I'm done.

It would be better if they removed permadeath from real-life.

But then some people would probably think it wouldn't be hardcore enough...

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Originally posted by leshtricity
I challenge you or anyone else to explain to me why exactly it is that you, or worse, the government, can decide what is and is not best for me. Who are you to challenge, criticize, or condemn how I spend my leisure time; or how I spend any of my own time? Perhaps I'm not a contributing member to society because I play MMORPG's hours a day, or use previously aforementioned substances.

It's my life. I make my own choices. I do things that are bad for me. Really bad. Frequently. But again, it's my choice and the responsibility and repercussions rest solely on me.

The last five words are where the rationale breaks down. You are not an island, and the repercussions of your actions affect everyone. At this point, people usually quote the more extreme cases of drunk drivers, disgruntled workers and so forth. The point is that what we believe comes out in our interactions with other people and we affect them as a result. Sometimes dramatically and obviously, other times subtly and indirectly.

My post got you worked up, for example.

Originally posted by leshtricity
I cannot stand the mentality that other people or the government know better.

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The point here is not that the government knows better. The point is that there IS a better and, by inference, a worse. Those two things can be known, even if the government isn't the one that knows what they are. My ideal is to use the government as a small foundation to structure things so that our society can always be pushing to discover what is best and worst. Unfortunately, too few people even believe in the idea of absolutes when it comes to good and bad. So we don't look.

If you dislike arrogance, consider the arrogance that an individual's instincts are sufficient to know the best way to live life. Can we learn nothing from the billions of people who have contemplated the best way to live life among their neighbors over the past thousands of years? Perhaps government doesn't do such a bang-up job because of their own arrogant confidence that they already know what's best.

For the record, I'm a conservative and not at all a fan of big government, handouts and such. Nor of big corporations, for that matter.

Originally posted by JB47394

 

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Originally posted by leshtricity
I challenge you or anyone else to explain to me why exactly it is that you, or worse, the government, can decide what is and is not best for me. Who are you to challenge, criticize, or condemn how I spend my leisure time; or how I spend any of my own time? Perhaps I'm not a contributing member to society because I play MMORPG's hours a day, or use previously aforementioned substances.

 

It's my life. I make my own choices. I do things that are bad for me. Really bad. Frequently. But again, it's my choice and the responsibility and repercussions rest solely on me.

The last five words are where the rationale breaks down. You are not an island, and the repercussions of your actions affect everyone. At this point, people usually quote the more extreme cases of drunk drivers, disgruntled workers and so forth. The point is that what we believe comes out in our interactions with other people and we affect them as a result. Sometimes dramatically and obviously, other times subtly and indirectly.

My post got you worked up, for example.

Originally posted by leshtricity
I cannot stand the mentality that other people or the government know better.

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The point here is not that the government knows better. The point is that there IS a better and, by inference, a worse. Those two things can be known, even if the government isn't the one that knows what they are. My ideal is to use the government as a small foundation to structure things so that our society can always be pushing to discover what is best and worst. Unfortunately, too few people even believe in the idea of absolutes when it comes to good and bad. So we don't look.

If you dislike arrogance, consider the arrogance that an individual's instincts are sufficient to know the best way to live life. Can we learn nothing from the billions of people who have contemplated the best way to live life among their neighbors over the past thousands of years? Perhaps government doesn't do such a bang-up job because of their own arrogant confidence that they already know what's best.

For the record, I'm a conservative and not at all a fan of big government, handouts and such. Nor of big corporations, for that matter.

People don't believe in absolutes because they don't exist. It's all about perspective.

To you, someone who spends years of their life using drugs and ends up overdosing, must be an enormous waste, right? Well, I guarantee you most people that lived like that experienced far more euphoria than you ever will. So who's to say? I'm not hedonistic or anything, but there are no absolutes. You can't say this is better, or that is better. People are individuals with their own ideas, thought-processes, and instincts.

Originally posted by dippyzippy

archives.cnn.com/2002/TECH/industry/04/05/everquest.suicide.idg/index.html

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shawn_Woolley

www.destructoid.com/man-in-china-dies-after-three-day-mmo-session-44916.phtml

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4137782.stm (Starcraft)

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1544131/Man-dies-after-7-day-computer-game-session.html

http://www.thelocal.se/15742.html

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29681926/

kotaku.com/gaming/crime/baby-dies-as-parents-play-wow-108377.php

news.softpedia.com/news/Two-Fanatic-World-of-Warctaft-Gamers-Have-Died-Becouse-Of-WoW-11821.shtml

how long will it be before 5-hour breaks become the norm throughout the world not just China-->news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4183340.stm

Why aren't there more warnings in and out of game to take breaks?

Why has no-one been held accountable or sued?

Is it because most of them are Asian and no-one cares? Is it because no-one wants to believe that a game can take over someone's live so much that only someone with "no self-control" will die?

Why aren't more people asking questions like me?!

 

This is bullshit man.  There's always gonna be some people with mental problems playing MMOs, and you're gonna blame an MMO for someones death.  Are you gonna blame alcohol if someone dies from drinking too much, or if someone cuts their wrist will you blame the knife manufacturer?  Get real.  It's their own fault if they die.  

Also, if I played an MMO I wouldn't want to read "Warning, get off the computer", it's bullshit.  People play MMOs because they are more interesting than reality, and telling someone to go do something IRL ruins the gaming experience.  

In conclusion, if you die playing the game, it's your own fault.   Those people were just suicidal to begin with.  And who wants 5 hour breaks or whatever?  That's dumb

Btw, people should be able to do what they want when it comes to their own life.  Who are you to say someone can't play a game 50 hours straight?  It's totally up to them what they want to do with their life.

Say something 1000 times while ignoring all other comments.................. I know the thread is 20 pages long, but really.

People should have the right to choose to do something despite it having negative consequences on other members of society? Why does anyone pay taxes for local police? And the legal system? And the military for that matter. That is the basis for all civilized nations. You be a soldier and protect me from death and ill be a carpenter and build you a house so your family has somewhere to live.

The real problem here is the fact that we have so many contradictary views in society.

The founding fathers lived in a very differen't world than today. There are many more occupations and therefore many more areas of life to be knowledgeable about. A single individual cannot know everything. That is why millions of people band together in cities, because the more people there are the better the technological infrastructure will be.

But you are changing tack and not looking at the heart of this matter. Everybody is responsible. You, me, anyone who does anything is responsible for what they did. Its like the current economic crisis, people got loans approved they could never repay and consumers knew this and did it anyway thinking "I'll worry about it tomorrow". The very idea that some "individual" needs to be isolated and have all the blame for the whole situation lumped on them like a scapegoat is ridiculous.

Originally posted by _Seeker

But you are changing tack and not looking at the heart of this matter. Everybody is responsible. You, me, anyone who does anything is responsible for what they did. Its like the current economic crisis, people got loans approved they could never repay and consumers knew this and did it anyway thinking "I'll worry about it tomorrow". The very idea that some "individual" needs to be isolated and have all the blame for the whole situation lumped on them like a scapegoat is ridiculous.

Sounds to me that you prefer that people blame others.

I have my own life and if I want to do something unhealthy like smoking or spending a lot of time in fron of my computer that is my choice. If I would be a minor it is a different thing but adults must take responsability for their own life, that is what being an adult is all about.

If you however love to have other people decide what is good for you I reccomend moving to North Korea or Cuba (well, I only been to Cuba so I might be wrong about NK).

There is no way you could stop anyone from playing themselves to death anyways, if someone wants to play that badly they will do it. You cant stop people from using drugs even, only way to stop people from playing themselves to death is by making the internet illegal and even then they might do it in sologames.

I think its great that mmorpgs kill people. I'm also a supporter of cancer and aids and more expensive healthcare lets get real people we need population control people need to die.

Originally posted by _Seeker

Say something 1000 times while ignoring all other comments.................. I know the thread is 20 pages long, but really.

People should have the right to choose to do something despite it having negative consequences on other members of society? Why does anyone pay taxes for local police? And the legal system? And the military for that matter. That is the basis for all civilized nations. You be a soldier and protect me from death and ill be a carpenter and build you a house so your family has somewhere to live.

The real problem here is the fact that we have so many contradictary views in society.

The founding fathers lived in a very differen't world than today. There are many more occupations and therefore many more areas of life to be knowledgeable about. A single individual cannot know everything. That is why millions of people band together in cities, because the more people there are the better the technological infrastructure will be.

But you are changing tack and not looking at the heart of this matter. Everybody is responsible. You, me, anyone who does anything is responsible for what they did. Its like the current economic crisis, people got loans approved they could never repay and consumers knew this and did it anyway thinking "I'll worry about it tomorrow". The very idea that some "individual" needs to be isolated and have all the blame for the whole situation lumped on them like a scapegoat is ridiculous.

What kind of argument are you even trying to make?  If a person plays an MMO to death, they are probably gonna die some other way anyway.  Even if they aren't., it's their choice to die.  If they die, it doesn't affect me.  In general people are not so retarded to play themselves to death.  Only .0000001% of people might do that.  People die all the time, it doesn't affect others.  

Taxes for local police?  I don't know, whens the last time they did anything useful?  They just seem to give people tickets at the end of the month, other than that they have no useful function.

And no its not like the economic crisis.  I wouldn't want people telling me how to live, and I won't tell other people how to live, as long as it doesn't affect others.  I don't see how some nutcase dying from to much of an MMO has anything to do with my life, let them choose what they want to do.  It's not your decision or your body.  You're not their mother.

And lol.  You seem to be so worried about one or two people who died from MMOs.  It's ridiculous that the public is like this.... I guess the half million or whatever civilians that died in Iraq are fine.  God forbid the  epidemic when humans are so dumb they all play themselves to death. Haha

How many people die from eating shit food (fast food) or poison that is sold in your grocery stores (anything that is processed).  That kills millions of people, causes many diseases, and yet the huge amount of people that died on MMOs(1-2?) is a major concern now?  And the people who never exercise.  Maybe we should blame the public for their own stupidity.  After all, if those super-obese people were "educated", they wouldn't be fat, right?  Get real.

You say that you smoke, yet seem to think its important to protect people from gaming.  What kind of a joke is that?   You can educate and tell people things are harmful all you want, it doesn't matter at all.  Just about everything that people do these days is unhealthy, everything..  Yet 1-2 people dying from gaming is the forefront of issues now?  Why don't you fight for  a real cause, like how everything in grocery stores is trash food, and how no one exercises anymore, and the amount of stress that people have to deal with in their lives.