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Originally posted by AgtSmith
You have done that. Is it not time to move forward? I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention. |
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Originally posted by rhinok
How is it such a minor thing?
I don't consider any of those minor issues and I refuse to play any game that uses GameGuard for those reasons. The integrity of my system is more important to me than being able to play a game. ~Ripper 1. Any program that you install on your system has the potential to be very bad if the writer intends it to be. It doesn't have to be a rootkit to trash your system. What I'm saying is that you have to have some trust in the software writers ANY time you install a program on your system. 2. For GG to be effective it needs to have low level access to your system. It wouldn't work as well otherwise. I have TCoS running on 4 different systems that use AVG Free, NOD32, and Norton antivirus programs. I have had zero problems as a result of this. 3. You'd be surprised just how many software packages use 3rd party libraries in their code. If you knew how common this was, I'm thinking you may not be able to sleep at night for fear of boogie men coming to get you. 4. MOST programs leave a little something behind when you uninstall them. If you haven't noticed this then you haven't been using a computer for very long. In fact, the process to fully remove MS Word is much more complicated than removing the install of GG. |
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AVG detection is a false positive. The developer has mentioned getting in contact with AVG to correct it. Kaspersky AV comes up clean. Avira AntiVir...clean. Blacklight, Gmer, Malwarbytes and Spybot all come up clean and do not detect GG as malware or a rootkit. I would think specialized programs like this would see GG for what it's being claimed to be but they aren't. Why is that? You can't tell me that the developers of these tools have no clue about GG. If it's as vile as some of you claim, why isn't GG being flagged as such? Are these tools worthless to the user?
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Originally posted by Cablespider
Many of them do detect GameGuard activities and assume them to be malicious, even if the 'intent' is not to be malicious. But the dirty little secret on security software (particularly the big commercial ones) is that they regularly build in exceptions for anything commercial simply because they cannot afford to be hauled in to court for labeling something as 'malicious' if they cannot prove it is malicious only that it is doing the same thing as malicious stuff does. This is one of the reasons spyware is so prevalent, that and ignorant users. So yeah, nProtect will have their lawyers tell AVG to make an exception or they will sue even though the behavior is clearly inappropriate and in kind with legitimate threats.
Just to try to help you, though I doubt you are interested in expanding your understanding. There really is no such thing as a false positive in terms of this type of thing. Wait, let me explain before you go all ape sh#t about me saying that. Modern A/V programs are not like the first and second generations that work solely on signature based scans, that is to say that early A/V software was basically a big black list of know bits to look for and in seeing those matching bits something was flagged (yes, oversimplified but in general). Modern A/V uses signatures and increasingly relies on heuristic scans to identify commands and/or functions rather than simply looking for know sections of code. So, there is no false positive in the sense that the A/V programs (at least non terrible ones) are seeing what they are programed to look for and alerting about it based on a function of the alerting software. The distinction made as to a 'false positive' is whether or not the action or function is tied to a program otherwise know to be legitimate. But that goes to my original point - good software doesn't do these kinds of alerting things so if something is setting off a heuristic A/V then there is an underlying problematic action in play. Maybe for legal reasons the program gets a pass (google for yourself how much spyware gets away with existing because it is a legitimate commercial enterprise) or not - that is more about the legal wranglings and intent part of the equation than the activity of the program itself.
Originally posted by Aganazer
1) Perhaps true about all software being risky as you are running code locally and it is true that you have to extend some level of trust or simply do nothing with your computer. But that is my point here, in usurping the user and installing this third part software in a stealth manner and providing no legitimate means for the user to control it or even remove it that trust is being violated. And as for being a rootkit, its stealth nature coupled with the way it hides processes from the operating system and user is what makes it a rootkit the manner in which it is deployed is what makes it illicit even if it may not be malicious. 2) First of all, it doesn't work well at all, period. Anyone intent on hacking the games that use GameGuard can still hack the games - they just have to Google for the many workarounds to hack GameGuard first. As for problems, good - glad you have had none. But that doesn't mean that the potential for problems, innocent or otherwise, is great and it doesn't mean that many people (just look at the list of software GameGuard is known to shut down without user consent, Google Chrome, Damon tools, F-Secure (a rootkit detection program it render inoperable), Steam, and others). 3) I know how common something like what you describe is, that is why I always log installs and look closely as to what an installer changed and it is how I found out about Gameguard. Besides that, commonality doesn't make it right and if people would stand up and assert their rights it would be anything but common. But that being said, third party libraries and code is one thing, third party rootkits is another thing entirely. 4) Based on the US installer, I am uncertain if there are differences in Europe or in a box version of the game, the entirity of GameGuard is left behind and active and hidden when TCoS is uninstalled. There is a big difference between that and leaving some files in %Program Files% and some orphaned registry keys. -------------------------------- |
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Originally posted by AgtSmith
Many of them do detect GameGuard activities and assume them to be malicious, even if the 'intent' is not to be malicious. But the dirty little secret on security software (particularly the big commercial ones) is that they regularly build in exceptions for anything commercial simply because they cannot afford to be hauled in to court for labeling something as 'malicious' if they cannot prove it is malicious only that it is doing the same thing as malicious stuff does. This is one of the reasons spyware is so prevalent, that and ignorant users. So yeah, nProtect will have their lawyers tell AVG to make an exception or they will sue even though the behavior is clearly inappropriate and in kind with legitimate threats.
I don't see how they could win a lawsuit like that. Under what grounds could nProtect sue any company for not adding an auto-exception for GG?
I'd also like to note that I have several "infections" of GG and not one instance of it is currently running on my computer and I've yet to reboot my computer since playing a GG protected game yesterday. Yes I have a program that can search running proccesses for files that've been injected into them so GG has no where to hide. |
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I think you are overreacting. Many games are using gameguard for anti cheat for a long time. If it would have been harmful it could have never been this successful. Oooh and if you care about privacy and want to be in control of your computer, drop windows... |
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Originally posted by KyutaSyuko
I don't see how they could win a lawsuit like that. Under what grounds could nProtect sue any company for not adding an auto-exception for GG?
I'd also like to note that I have several "infections" of GG and not one instance of it is currently running on my computer and I've yet to reboot my computer since playing a GG protected game yesterday. Yes I have a program that can search running proccesses for files that've been injected into them so GG has no where to hide.
It has happened many times - it is because of the negative connotation of the detection. As so many here argue 'prove it is malicious' which is soley about the intent of the program and not its activity. Security software companies that label such programs are reguarly hauled in to court by the perveyers and even by other Security software companies (big surprise there). I recall last year or so Kapersky got in to a big mess with China because they had a flase positive on some chinese Anti Spyware program and as I recall the Chinese Anti Spyware program then labelled Kapersky as malicious and Kapersky sued them or some such thing. Look, all I am saying is that bad practice is bad practice whether by non evil software or by the evil stuff - modern operating systems have protections to avoid much of this bad practices and security software watches to see what tries to usurp those controls so while false positives do happen in terms of the intent they are often not flase positives at all in terms of the action that triggered them.
Originally posted by roel88
By your logic I suppose Bernie Madeoff should be let go - I mean how could he have been doing something for all that time and making so much money and be so successful if he was doing anything wrong. All you need to do is read the responses of people here totally clueless about the technical issues at stake not to mention the potential risks to know that most people are sheep and they just take what comes there way. That is how Sony got away with what they did, until discovered, because nobody spoke up for all the incremental violations of user's rights leading up to the Sony rootkit. Much the same can be said of SecureROM and StarForce and Gameguard - the information about the risks is out there (I quoted it here even) , there is plenty of examples of people's systems being screwed up by such software out there as well (be it intentionally/maliciously or simply by accident/conflict).
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Originally posted by AgtSmith Now see I can understand that happening because the Chinese Anti Spyware program company only had ill intent when labeling Kaspersky as malicious just because Kaspersky gave a false positive on their software. I believe this would fall under.... crap what was it called... I can't remember... |
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Many of the free anti spyware programs also get threats on such thing, just head over to safer-networking.org and other such community sites if you do not believe me. Same thing happens with SPAM block lits, many good ones have been shit down by otherwise legitimate companies who don't want people blocking their SPAM. -------------------------------- |
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So. Much. Fail. |
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Need for third party antihack software means the game has bad securitydesign. |
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Originally posted by someforumguy
You're wrong. Failed. It means alot of the data is stored client-side. I rather a secure client-side game rather then an epic failure. |
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Basically when games like TCoS that use manual targetting don't use applications like gameguard you end up with games like Darkfall. I'm not saying it's ok for software companies to install rootkits, or that I like it, but I have to slightly disagree with the OP. Some of those things that gameguard do, like terminating programs that it deams as cheats and blocking calls to direct x help to prevent rampant cheating in games. If it doesn't do stuff like that then you end up with people like my best friend who does a little tweaking of his running processes and changes were a process may actually be running to bypass cheat software like warden so that he can bot in other games. As long as you are prompted that you will be installing gameguard when you install TCoS there isn't a problem. Edit: As long as the gameguard software that TCoS installs is clean there isn't any problem of anything malicious happening. The threat comes from the rootkit carrying something else that shouldn't be there. |
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Originally posted by Nevulus
You're wrong. Failed. It means alot of the data is stored client-side. I rather a secure client-side game rather then an epic failure. That is the reason why it is bad security design. Third party anithack software is just a relatively cheap security bandaid. See all free to play MMO's where this anti-hack software completely fails. |
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Originally posted by lttexxan
umm....I was saying it works (a bit) for online games.....so why not for SB.....I understand why you wouldn't get that though.... Still has rarely anything to do with my post, except you say it can work for offline games as well :/ I do get that part, I was wonder wtf you're talking about since it DOES have barley anything to do with my posts
then your posts have nothing to see .....I saw and posted....and your only defense is "you don't get it"
well...you have fun with that see signature.......for irony.
I saw the sig....and all I see is...umm...some one posting nothing....the only irony is that people like to post...nothing...like the person I was responding to....gj there "This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....." |
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The OP is 100% accurate , I am glad this post was made having experienced the negative effects of Game Guard myself while playing other games in the past . Without going in to all of the details I will simply say that the program has very deep hooks and no matter how much I want to play a game , I never download anything that utilizes Game Guard . Having had an account with Acclaim since 9 Dragons Beta , I am not surprised they are still using this crap . |
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Originally posted by someforumguy That is the reason why it is bad security design. Third party anithack software is just a relatively cheap security bandaid. See all free to play MMO's where this anti-hack software completely fails.
Something is better than nothing....and you people still are chasing UFOs....
Nothing wrong with GG....and it's been proven...not here...but with the people that actually play the game. Crap or not...it's something working towards the positive....
No Rootkit here....move on.... "This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....." |
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Originally posted by zaltar
Everything you have said here has nothing to do with GG being a rootkit....do you realise this?
besides the fact that you admit that you have GG....or you wouldn't have 9 Dragons and others installed? "This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....." |
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Originally posted by Nevulus
You're wrong. Failed. It means alot of the data is stored client-side.
Actually, he is right - the only reason to have something like game guard is because too much of the game is running client side. For an FPS that is not pay to play this is understandable btu for a pay to play MMO it is ridiculous, and that is the point I made way back in the beginning being that for a pay to play game to do this makes it really ridiculous. -------------------------------- |
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Originally posted by Gestankfaust That is the reason why it is bad security design. Third party anithack software is just a relatively cheap security bandaid. See all free to play MMO's where this anti-hack software completely fails.
Something is better than nothing....and you people still are chasing UFOs....
Nothing wrong with GG....and it's been proven...not here...but with the people that actually play the game. Crap or not...it's something working towards the positive....
No Rootkit here....move on....
Lol. Im not a TCoS 'hater' and also didnt say anything about rootkits. I actually like the refreshing ideas from the devs. But still think that needing GG is security failure. On the other hand understandable for an Indie dev company that doesnt have the resources to develop/hire knowledge about data security. This doesnt make GG less fail in the security department. Liking a game doesnt make me stop being critical. Edit: Nothing worse for business in general then a customer that swallows anything that a company throws at them. You can say goodby to any innovation with that attitude. |
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Originally posted by AgtSmith
Actually, he is right - the only reason to have something like game guard is because too much of the game is running client side. For an FPS that is not pay to play this is understandable btu for a pay to play MMO it is ridiculous, and that is the point I made way back in the beginning being that for a pay to play game to do this makes it really ridiculous.
so...point out to us which AC software is used by other MMOs these days.....
Those that are P2P.... "This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....." |
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Originally posted by AgtSmith Okay drawing a correlation between Madoff and GG is complete nonsense. Sorry, the two are not even related because what Madoff did was illegal according to Federal law. Now that we got that out of the way..... You mention potential risks....Again, everything is a risk. You give more freedom to Windows than you do any game. You take more risk using online banking and playing MMO's. You take risks driving a car, jumping out of an airplane, going repelling. You take risks every time you visit a webpage or download anything from the Internet. So where do we draw the line? What makes this little program so bad as opposed to what you allows other software to do to your computer? GG is no worse than anything else (especially Windows) but you singled it out for some reason.....maybe you have an issue with Acclaim or TCOS or whatever..... Why is GG so bad? What does it do that some over company does not do? We know there is plenty of information regarding it so people are notified. And no, it doesn't take a genius to find and read the information. Companies can be responsible for every idiot out there and are only held liable in cases of negligence or malfeasance.....I suggest familiarity with those terms. People are aware of what it does because that information is out there. It does remove itself as others have posted. So let's flip this argument around: See its easy to say this could or might happen. Well hell, I could get in a car wreck tomorrow on my way to work so I guess I better tell my boss, since it might happen, I cannot come in? Anything might happen....that does not mean it will. Sorry, I do not base my life around what might happen. If I like a game I will play it; I will not hate the game or refuse to play it because of what a little program might do to my computer. WHY would someone use GG for some malicious purpose? What could they hope to gain. WHY would a multi-billion dollar company choose to use this program in an illelgal manner knowing that they would face massive fines, probably shutdown and ruin their entire reputation? You are so focused on the "they could" that you forget to offer any supportive argument as to WHY. See Ockham's Razor applies here......the simplest and most rational answer is usually the right one. So is GG a bad, evil program that is going to take over my computer to be used by some 3rd party in a malicious manner or is it simply an anti-cheat software chosen by the company to protect their gaming environment? It is all about risk versus reward but I see more risk in crossing the street tomorrow and getting hit by a car than the chance that someone will use GG in a malicious way. |
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Originally posted by someforumguy
Something is better than nothing....and you people still are chasing UFOs....
Nothing wrong with GG....and it's been proven...not here...but with the people that actually play the game. Crap or not...it's something working towards the positive....
No Rootkit here....move on....
Lol. Im not a TCoS 'hater' and also didnt say anything about rootkits. I actually like the refreshing ideas from the devs. But still think that needing GG is security failure. On the other hand understandable for an Indie dev company that doesnt have the resources to develop/hire knowledge about data security. This doesnt make GG less fail in the security department. Liking a game doesnt make me stop being critical.
ok...at least I see that point...they could do better....sorry I lumped you in with the "rootkit theorists" "This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....." |
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Properly designed MMOs don't put processes on the client where they are vulnerable to manipulation, such calculations and processes are done server side where there is trust. As Raph Koster is famous for saying, "the client is in the hands of the enemy" - but what does he know, he is only one of the industry's leading designers. http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/04/17/how-to-hack-an-mmo/ http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/laws.shtml
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Well, it's been fun and interesting but I have a date with an 'infected' game. TCoS is to much fun not to play.I'll continue to do business on one pc and game on the other. When the game becomes stale, I'll clone the gaming rig. Tata.
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