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Originally posted by Josher
Like its been said 100 times, every MMO has optional quests. I don't recall quests magically appearing in my log, while the computer takes over and moves my avatar to the correct locations and starts attacking mobs I don't want to. I DO recall having to manually click on the NPC to begin them though. I also recall choosing to do some of them and ignoring others. I remember sometimes not finishing them at all and dropping them from the log. I remember noticing that I got more experience doing a dungeon, because of all the elite mobs in there AND I got much better rewards to boot and got to fight a huge boss as well. I remember it being more fun too. I remember a friend sharing a quest with me before hand that I never found, that had a pretty decent story attached with multiple parts, characters, good guys and bad guys. But I forget how forced that all was;) Damn stupid game offering me a choice to play alone, play with friends, go on a quest OR just kill whatever was in my way while I just explored the map. How lame. Without doing the quests to gain the max potential xp you will be mob killing for a very long time. Yes, technically quests are optional but realistically they are essential when your mmo is linear. Sandbox type mmos are different. |
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raystantz
 Final Fantasy XI Correspondent
Joined: 10/16/07
MMO history: UO, EQ1, EQ2, EQOA, FFXI, WoW, SWG, AO, Flyff and other random free mmos. |
Originally posted by SaintViktor Without doing the quests to gain the max potential xp you will be mob killing for a very long time. Yes, technically quests are optional but realistically they are essential when your mmo is linear. Sandbox type mmos are different. exactly, so play a mud.. nothing more sand box than that.
Your basically asking for a world where you are just free to roam and do as you please. Perhaps a world where the players create the content?
I can bet that I would still get to 80 in WoW just by grinding mobs, faster than you would get to 75 in FFXI. |
Originally posted by raystantz Without doing the quests to gain the max potential xp you will be mob killing for a very long time. Yes, technically quests are optional but realistically they are essential when your mmo is linear. Sandbox type mmos are different. exactly, so play a mud.. nothing more sand box than that.
Your basically asking for a world where you are just free to roam and do as you please. Perhaps a world where the players create the content?
I can bet that I would still get to 80 in WoW just by grinding mobs, faster than you would get to 75 in FFXI.
Interesting to see if you can get to 80 in WOW (though Blizzard to raise the amount of XP players get) faster than someone to get to 75 in FFX but that really isn't the point though. :) Quests are still the essential part of most mmos, ask Turbine, they think viable content is adding 100 more quests. :) |
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nakuma
 Advanced Member
Joined: 5/04/06
"then again I could be wrong, but that's just my opinion" -Dennis Miller |
Originally posted by Neanderthal
then describe what you want?? im not crazy about questing to some degree(unless there is a good story behind it), hell i refuse to level up my lvl 70 dk mainly cause 1) the class is a bit boring, and 2) i dont want to do the same shit over again. but id be damned if i grind mobs, thats worse than you so called 'quest-grinding'. for you however,what is it you want? what are you looking for? all this bashing of MMO's i havent really seen anything that truly says you know what you want. you want exploration? you can do that yourself you want adventuring? you can do that yourself. you want social play? well thats Roleplaying which can be done in MMO. grab some friends and make up stories and characers. want pvp? there are a few games that offer interesting pvp, Lineage2(has social aspects to the pvping as well reason to pvp taking over resources), AOC, DAOC, and a few that are coming out such as Earthrise will offer loot pvp. Go out and kick someones ass. In the end I heard all what you dont want and nothing of what you would like to have. for me id rather quest grind, than mob grind any day, I personally make my own adventure, exploration and social play. no need for hand holding there. if you want certain things in a MMO, you could always make it yourself. just rmemeber you always have choices even when you think you dont. 3.4ghz Phenom II X4 965, 8GB PC12800 DDR3 GSKILL, EVGA 285 GTX 1GB, 640GB HD SATA II, ThermalTake 850Watt PSU. MSI NF980-G65 TRI-SLI MOBO. |
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nakuma
Advanced Member
Joined: 5/04/06
"then again I could be wrong, but that's just my opinion" -Dennis Miller |
Originally posted by SaintViktor exactly, so play a mud.. nothing more sand box than that.
Your basically asking for a world where you are just free to roam and do as you please. Perhaps a world where the players create the content?
I can bet that I would still get to 80 in WoW just by grinding mobs, faster than you would get to 75 in FFXI.
Interesting to see if you can get to 80 in WOW (though Blizzard to raise the amount of XP players get) faster than someone to get to 75 in FFX but that really isn't the point though. :) Quests are still the essential part of most mmos, ask Turbine, they think viable content is adding 100 more quests. :) adding 100 quests, plus maybe some new gear, and backstory is actually viable content. 3.4ghz Phenom II X4 965, 8GB PC12800 DDR3 GSKILL, EVGA 285 GTX 1GB, 640GB HD SATA II, ThermalTake 850Watt PSU. MSI NF980-G65 TRI-SLI MOBO. |
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raystantz
Final Fantasy XI Correspondent
Joined: 10/16/07
MMO history: UO, EQ1, EQ2, EQOA, FFXI, WoW, SWG, AO, Flyff and other random free mmos. |
Originally posted by nakuma exactly, so play a mud.. nothing more sand box than that.
Your basically asking for a world where you are just free to roam and do as you please. Perhaps a world where the players create the content?
I can bet that I would still get to 80 in WoW just by grinding mobs, faster than you would get to 75 in FFXI.
Interesting to see if you can get to 80 in WOW (though Blizzard to raise the amount of XP players get) faster than someone to get to 75 in FFX but that really isn't the point though. :) Quests are still the essential part of most mmos, ask Turbine, they think viable content is adding 100 more quests. :) adding 100 quests, plus maybe some new gear, and backstory is actually viable content.
I'm like most that don't get this complaint...
You don't want to quest, you don't want to grind. You don't want content. What do you want?
In that case.. ---> Second Life.
You can do literally anything you please, and you have all the choices in the world. |
Originally posted by Neanderthal
I lack the ability to communicate how strongly I agree with what the OP said. -------------------------------- |
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i am with you all the way. i was repeating this for years, that quests are not better grind than normal mob kills. Besides, in games that didnt have quests, finding group were much easier. Ppl solo 99% of quests so its even more boring. At least in team u can chat to kill not only mobs, but boredom as well. I will tell u about my experience, about games i played, maybe u will find game that suits u GW - quests here are really deep and drive you into storyline. u dont do them for xp, cuz u max lvl uberfast in this game. but i assure you, you will want to do them anyway, just for nice background SB - totally, not even single quest, only mob kill. i think thats why grouping was relatively easy. and u could maxlvl in week, so really no grind was needed KO - same as SB, only grind was neverending WAR - you can lvl up only through pvp if you prefer. AoC - many many quests, but exp from mobs is so good, that u can tell all those npc to stfu Playing: Civilization 4 |
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Originally posted by raystantz
Oh, I could tell you why I think EQ died but that would be a serious derailment of the topic. One factor is the simple fact that it was level based and all level based games have a sort of built in self destruct mechanism. Time works against them and inevitably they will all be top heavy and progressively more screwed up and altered from what they were at launch as the devs have to continually add new stuff to keep people busy. If you don't think that will happen to WoW you better think again. Sooner or later the day will come when people who loved WoW "back in the day" are coming to this site to theorize about why it faded to a shadow of it's former glory. It won't happen tommorow but it will happen some day. Why are quest grinders the most populated games right now? Well, maybe they would win out anyway but the truth is that there haven't been any AAA titles that didn't have serious problems any time recently that weren't quest grinders. On the subject of "You don't have to play WoW that way" I would ask you to read or reread the earlier posts. Although I'm sure you won't like what has been said about that we have already discussed it. I've already explained my thoughts on that. |
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Ok, I admit that I didn't read all 7 pages of responses. The thing I'm hearing though is that people like doing quests, they like xp grinding, and they like chatting. Again, I didn't read them all. Now, doesn't that sound a little silly? I like questing but by god don't tell me I have to!! Huh? I hate quest grinding but I love sitting in one spot killing the same mob over and over! Huh? I love sitting and chit chatting with folks? Huh? That's one of the complaints about WoW, it's a glorified chat room. I'm not trying to pick a fight but that's just a little strange. I'm not saying any of those things are bad, it's just seems out of place to complain about the other if you like one of them. Z http://www.TheIronZ.com |
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I'm not understanding this complaint. Some people act like theres some significant difference in how much EXP you gain. For example, in WOW or WAR there isn't much. Its not like the difference in EQ or DAOC where soloing was so painfully slow and mind numbing, you felt forced to group up just to see some sort of exp gain. In WAR, the quest Exp is actually quite laughable. You could just grind mobs and lvl up MUCH faster. You kind of have to grind mobs at some point since there aren't enough quests to rely on them solely. WOW has a lot more quests and you never have to grind if you don't want to, but even then, ONLY questing has never produced any sort of huge advantage over just grinding or a combination of both. Its been proven a while back. I can't provide the links, since they're burried over at the VNboards;) The difference in leveling rate is nominal, only noticable to the most nerdiest of math whores. Besides, if you're MIN/MAXing in WOW, instead of just enjoying the experience and doing what you want, the entire concept is totally lost on you. Thats EQ's and DAOC's fault for instilling that garbage in your head int he first place. You HAD to Min/Max, figuring out where the ideal camping spots were, ect, just to advance at a reasonable pace. Random exploration was met with very little gain. Doing a quest rarely offered any real reward worth having and the stories were no better than in WOW. Every quest isn't, kill 10 frogs. The argument is getting old. In WOW's case you can just take off in any direction, knowing that a green mob is worth a litle, a yellow is worth a decent amount and a red is worth a lot, not caring what you "need to" kill. There is NOTHING stopping you. You just do whatever you want to do and you'll get rewarded approriately. Of course the quests add to the rewards but thats EXACTLY what people were asking for all these years. They wanted some purpose to all the grinding, even if its not meaingful purpose. Just ANYTHING besides spawn camping. They did it because they had no choice and it was getting tiresome. Now you have a choice and some people STILL bitch and moan. You're hopeless. Its all just whining for the sake of whining and its getting stupid. |
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What difference does it make? If you don't want to do the quests then don't do them. I know several people in these games that just grind different mob types because for whatever reason that's their cup of tea. Personally, I like doing quests assuming the game actually tries to have an in depth story line. Other times we just group up and go after mobs for the hell of it. Why anyone would want less available in a game is beyond me. Besides maybe core or primary quests in a game most others can be avoided if that's what you want to do. Getting together and grinding mobs over and over again gets old. Some of the newer games actually try to have a story behind the game |
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Originally posted by Wickedjelly
It makes perfect sense, doesn't it? Why some think you have less options when you in fact have more, is the confusing part. And its not all that confusing=) But no, newer MMOs don't really have camps where mobs just keep popping up in the same exact place where only a group can just sit there and pull, taunt, kil, pull, taunt, kill, forever, chatting away, since the battle consisted mostly of autoattack and pessing 1 or 2 buttons...while drool travels from their lip to the keyboard. Other groups have thier little spots as well, so you have groups spawn camping next to eacho ther. Then some a$$munch comes along with 20 mobs on his tail, gurgling obsenities or giggling "TRAIN, TRAIN, Help me Help me!!!" and runs right through all these groups causing everyone to die, almost negating the last 2 hrs of progress for a bunch of people. No, that style of play isn't exactly viable anymore. What a damn shame right? Now when you grind mobs, you sort of travel around a bit...crazy I know... clearing out whole areas, moving around the zone alone or in a group. Your choice. Horrible isn't it? |
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I think the above 4 posts need to be read by everybody and sum up this whole thread in a slightly funny, sarcastic yet true way. Pay attention to thm, somehow between them they cover all there is to discuss and nail it to a T Playing polished, lag free, feature complete games is carebear. Whining about a game you hate but still play is hardcore man! |
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God please make questing optional. Please make it possible for me to gain comparable items/xp without doing a single one. Amen. I love you OP. |
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People keep on saying "now you just have MORE choices," and while I have to agree to some extent, it isn't the entire picture.
Yes, there are more choices. Yes, you can choose to do whatever you want -- but the sponsored style of play by the game designers is clearly questing. Quests make it easier to do everything, and in a game where the goal is to get to the highest level and do raids (WoW) that means that most everyone is going to quest. Yes, you will still be able to get a group sometimes and do things on your own. But it severely lacks the community of games that force you to group -- or even just don't imply that you SHOULD be questing.
I think the thing a lot of the people are saying they want is for grouping to be a more focal part in everything -- when you can gain levels faster or close to as fast by yourself than with 5 other people, something is definitely wrong. If you are a casual player, it SHOULD take you longer to get to the highest levels, and one way to do that is by making solo content give less experience. Yes, you can log in and do something worthwhile by yourself, but it will take a lot longer to get to level 60 than if you did things with groups. And that's the way an MMO should be.
I think one of the problems lies in the fact that casual players want to be able to level just as fast as anyone else. If you don't have the time to find a group and do stuff, you should still have a viable way to make quick exp. The problem is that you have to do a lot less work to get exp, so EVERYONE starts gaining exp that way, because it is so much easier. It's the path of least resistance.
If a game makes it easier to level solo than in a group, or even equal, than most people are going to solo. And it's a hell of a lot harder to find a group when everyone else is soloing. |
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Some of you just don't get it. I don't know if it's because you started with WoW or something like it or if you played EQ and hated it (which is a perfectly valid opinion). I don't know if it's some need you have to be told what to do and without that you feel lost. But no matter how much you claim that a person can get the same sort of play in a quest grinder as in the older games it just isn't true. Again I must stress that the old mob grinders were far from perfect. I could give you a list of complaints I had with EQ. But it was a different experience. It was a different atmosphere. And the design of a game does shape community behavior. You can tell me over and over again that I can get the same gameplay experience in WoW, LoTRO, or some other quest grinder that I got in EQ and I know it isn't true because I've tried those games. In a game like WoW, sure, I could go sit alone somewhere grinding mobs solo, knowing that even if I screw up it won't hurt me but what the hell fun is that? I soloed in EQ if I felt like being alone or if I only had a little time to log in and kill a few things but I sure as hell wouldn't want to solo grind all the time. Maybe that's why you guys love the solo play quest grinders. Maybe you did play older games and spent all your time solo grinding the weakest things that gave you experience. If you played a game like EQ in that way of course it would be boring as hell. So along comes WoW and gives you easy mobs, no death penalty, and wonder of wonders---NPCs who tell you what to do. EQ wasn't rocket science but now you don't have to think at all and instead of dealing with other human beings now you get a sort of proxy human interaction by talking to NPCs. But it's all much safer and nicer and they never tell you that you suck at playing your class, right? Just do as they say, follow the little arrow on your minimap, kill the weak-ass helpless crap that culminates your awesome quest and the nice NPC will give you a pat on the back and tell you how great you are and prove it by dumping exp. and loot in your lap. It's not the same thing, those games can't provide the same sort of experience, and no matter how often you repeat that they can it isn't going to make it true. If you love quest grinders that's great for you and there is nothing wrong with that but don't try to say that they are the same thing plus a little more because they aren't. |
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Originally posted by Neanderthal
I played EQ for years (starting from beta) and also UO from beta (hate that game, so grindy and pkfest). You are right. WOW & LOTRO and similar games are different. They are VASTLY superior, for me, and many who got sick of single mob grind in EQ. Oh, i grouped in EQ too. It does not add much to the mob grind. And it is really not about making things DIFFICULT. It is about making things FUN. There are a lot of fun quests with little scripting events. Sure dailies are chores if you have to do them again and again but most quests are one-time only and that beats the monogamy of mob grinding 1000x. In fact, even dailies beat single mob grinding since at least you get to look at different scenaries and kill different mobs.
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raystantz
Final Fantasy XI Correspondent
Joined: 10/16/07
MMO history: UO, EQ1, EQ2, EQOA, FFXI, WoW, SWG, AO, Flyff and other random free mmos. |
Let me take a stab at this again.. The op hates games where all he does is grind quests. Apparently some of you feel the same way. 1. Your grinding. No matter what, you are grinding. 2. Standing in one spot is boring, you can try to convince me all you want that it isn't. It is. You will fall asleep at some point if you stay in one place, not moving for an extended period of time. If this is "fun" then, I'd hate to see what you do on vacation. Ok, now that we have that out of the way. I personally have played every AAA title on the market, and made it to end game in almost all of them. That includes mUDS, UO, EQ, EQOA, EQ2, FFXI, WoW, AOC.. you name it.. I've conquered it. UO was fun because of the "players". not the content the game provided. Frankly if you go back and look.. what did UO consist of in terms of developer created content? If I remember correctly, there were limited amounts of quests, and most everything was player based. They just gave you a world to "live" and persist in. You could level skills, but that was it.. everything else was based on what the player "wanted" to do, not what the developers TOLD them to. Bring in EQ... same basic premise.. except for this time we have an extreme level grind, and we've added a tiny bit of developer added content in quests and Raiding. You needed to group at a certain point to advance, and there was no real way around this. Enter the modern day MMO.. WoW/Lotro.. etc. Weird, these seem to be similar to the mmos of old.. with one exception. They've added an option called "fun" to them. By removing all the annoying nuisances that plagued games of the past. So basically we've added more quests, more story, and taken away standing in one spot for 10 hrs. Sounds like a pretty good trade to me. So, the players who still like to just kill mobs.. can.. they just choose not to.. because much like in the past.. they feel "forced" to do everything and thus will only follow what the developers have spoon fed them.. instead of doing what a rational person would do and "think outside the box". MMO companies doubled and probably tripled there player base by making these changes, as it made the games accessible to anyone and not just the mmo clique. I think deep inside the old school mmoers hate the fact that their sacred genre is no longer the underground geekfest it once was. Not only geeks play, but businessmen, woman, hot chicks, musicians, factory workers. You can still do all the same things you used to do in EQ.. you choose not to. Your the only one to blame for the decline of the "grind" mmo. Theres about half a zillion free korean grind games to play, with huge populations. Times change, and you either change with it or just stay ignorant and bitter forever. I could log on to EQ right now and make up a quest log for every single 10 mobs I kill as I am grinding. Its the same thing, and always will be the same thing. If you want to have fun in ANY mmo.. its not up to the developers to do it for you. |
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The problem for me is uninteresting quests. When I play a single-player RPG, the quests are usually interesting and very story-driven. I feel like each quest advances the game's story or is at least somewhat compelling. In MMORPGs, they go for quantity over quality, loading up the games up with hundreds of dull, repetitive, quests that feel like they're created from a template. MMO quests are generally too short (kill 10 bears is not a quest, it's a menial task), too similar to each other, too numerous, too generic. Another problem too is that quests are all text in MMOs. If they voice-record all quests in an MMO (maybe a gargantuan undertaking, but that's mostly because there are too many quests) it would help bring the quests alive. When I jump onto an MMO at 2am, I really don't want to read blocks of quest text. Too often I find myself just reading the part that tells me what I have to do and then go off and do it. |
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I haven't read all 17 pages of the thread but what do you guys think about grinding other players for XP and gear? Now that's what I would call fun. :) |
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raystantz
Final Fantasy XI Correspondent
Joined: 10/16/07
MMO history: UO, EQ1, EQ2, EQOA, FFXI, WoW, SWG, AO, Flyff and other random free mmos. |
Originally posted by ENTR0PY
me and some coworkers are in midst of designing an mmo, and this was one of the main features we had intending on adding. I think this is a far better reward than items..
Of course we'd have to implement a way to diminish the xp return after a few kills to discourage camping.
But yeah, WAR tried to do this.. but failed IMO. PVP should be part of the PVE.. not a side attraction. |
Originally posted by CayneJobb
I imagine you didn't play older MMOs, or else you wouldn't complain about uninteresting quests, because just getting something even semi-interesting was step up from nothing=) You have a very valid point, but you just can't expect every quest to be great. Think about how much time you spend on single player RPGs. 60 hrs average maybe less and think of all the filler in them? You beat it in 2 weeks. How much time do you spend in a MMO? Months? Years? It takes years just to create a quality 60 hr single player game. If after 3 yrs in development, a MMO only kept you busy for a couple of weeks, you've got some problems. Its just not feasable. Something has to give. Thats where all the filler quests come in. They fill in the time between the good ones. Some MMOs do have lots of VO, but like you said, you can't record voice for every quest. AOC does a decent job, but it doesn't last long. So, you have less quests of better quality, but you're right back to the original problem. Feasibility. Expecting MMO developers to create 100s of hours of quality questing in the same amount of development time as a single player game that doesn't last nearly as long, is unrealistic and unfair. Also, MMOs aren't single player games. You can't be the hero that saves the world, because there are 15k other players on the server that want to do the same thing. That kind of limits the possibilities if you want a persistent world. As far as reading blocks of text, I assume you didn't play RPGs in the 90s. There was very little to no voice at all besides cut scenes maybe=) |
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quest grinding.... depends on how well its handled really. There are 2 ways of progressing in an mmo... kill stuff, or do stuff for other people. You can take the quests away but then you and everyone else in the game are nothing more than a bunch of homicidal maniacs because you don't even have a reason for going out and killing stuff. The entire basis for mmos is somewhat flawed but I don't have any ideas for anything better.
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Thankfully, the age of grinding is coming to a close. The traditional "gear and stats are everything, therefore we will hand out grind quests because they're cheap to make" is giving way to "fun is paramount, therefore we will give players the ability to create content for other players". Second Life. City of Heroes/Villians Mission Architect. and More On The Way, I certainly hope :) |
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