Completely agree with ya OP. I started UO back in 98 then did some SWG for about a year. I haven't really found a MMO I really enjoyed since those two. But both games have been changed so drastically over the years...they are no longer the games I enjoyed back then. And I have yet to find a MMO that offers the same things that those two games did. Most current MMOs have been simplified...dumbed down from the original MMOs.

I keep trying the new MMOs....that I feel always fall short in some aspect or another. But I haven't really settled down in a game for more than a few months since '05. I have been figuring...rather than looking for the game that has all the aspects I loved about UO n SWG...I will be forced to lower my expectations of what a MMO should be. And accept them as just a way for devs to try n make as much money as possible...while spending as little time caring what the community would like to see. Just follow the WoW model and the money will pour in.

But OP, hang in there. Tho I can't recommend any of the current titles, or even most of the future titles. I feel that once companies realize they can't beat WoW, but can at least run a decent business with smaller numbers...we will see new innovative MMOs.

While I am not a big fan of DF, I hope it pulls threw. Cause I feel if it does, it marks the beginning of a small company that can make a MMO work, without following the WoW model. Thus allowing other small companies to come with new ideas and innovations, that the bigger MMO companies will copy in time.

I don't have as much fun playing MMO's as I did years ago but the alternative is unthinkable!

Watching TV like a slug is out of the question. I've read thousands of books and even that gets boring after doing it for 30 years for entertainment.

And living in Upstate NY where we have crappy weather 8 months of year guarantees you are stuck inside the house.

I will always play MMO's just for those reasons. A mediocre night of gaming is a million times better than a crappy night watching  TV. At least my brain cells are functioning when I'm gaming and my mind is busy.

Originally posted by silkakc

I don't have as much fun playing MMO's as I did years ago but the alternative is unthinkable!

Watching TV like a slug is out of the question. I've read thousands of books and even that gets boring after doing it for 30 years for entertainment.

And living in Upstate NY where we have crappy weather 8 months of year guarantees you are stuck inside the house.

I will always play MMO's just for those reasons. A mediocre night of gaming is a million times better than a crappy night watching  TV. At least my brain cells are functioning when I'm gaming and my mind is busy.

 

 

See I do not feel like I am using my brain in the new MMOs, atleast not like I did playing EQ.

Father of 4 here, though not yet 40. I understand the responsibility part, and at times I've felt the genre has "failed". Ultimately I think the key is to follow good things in the genre (as much as possible) -- if nothing else, for the younger ones that want to grow up and play someday....or today. Your predecessors have much to gain from your experience. It is your choice alone where to place that experience. And you got kids >> 0.0. Kids looooove games. Sounds like as good of a reason as any to play some and have fun in the future.

GL OP

I can fully relate to this post. I am in my mid 40's and have been an avid gamer since early PnP-D&D (when it was considered occultish). From there I moved to pre-internet, pre-WWW, MUD's on BBS boards (we are talking a long time ago). Form that point it was Archmage and Meridian 59 to UO to EQ and down the line. Nothing in the this genre satisfies me anymore. I am tired of level and quest grinds and the same old rehashed garbage templates.

Furthermore, all these years of MMO gaming has somehow ruined my single player RPG experience as I feel they (single player RPG's) are lacking in the amount of depth that MMO's had originated. I long for a game that will draw me in like the old EQ days but it is not going to come. The genre has been on a rapid decline for 5-6 years now and it is not getting better any time soon.

I find myself enjoying my PS3 on a 50" Plasma on the couch more than sitting in front of my comp anymore. When I do try to play my PC games the only ones that satisfy are action RPG's such as Diablo 2 or Titan's Quest, etc.. I often wonder if my life long hobby is nothing more than simple burnout at this point. I am a responsible family man and have other hobbies (been a guitarist for 34 years) that are close to my heart. However, I have always enjoyed gaming. I tried to go back to WOW for the umpteenth time last week as I miss my friends and long time guild and it took all of me to last 4 days.

One of the problems is that we must be susceptible to change. Nothing stays the same and going backwards is not the answer ex: EQ, DAOC, UO, etc... Taking some of these forms and incorporating them into new development is not a bad idea of course. The leveling treadmill has got to cease for people like us. However, for newer generation MMO players they love the design. Us old timers are just burnt out on the same old grind for the last 15 years and I don't think its going to change any time soon.

A fine example of this cultural differecne is the attitudes in today's online gaming. SOme of the dispicable behavior you mention never happened in MUDS and early MMO's. Sure, you occassionally had the asshat but they were stomped out immediately. One could get a bad reputation and find themselves with no one to play with or even banned by the community. Times have changed and it seems that disrespectful behavior is glorified. Hell, look out your ffront door its everywhere. How much easier does it become for jackasses with the annonymity of the internet then.

There is no resolution other than to do as you have said you would do and give up on this genre until something that appeals to you finds light. my last vestige of hope for a solid game is the SWOR. I am not sure even though its Bioware that it is going to a spectacular blow me away game. More and more I get the feeling that it is going to become another dumbed down version to appeal to all masses.

The day of the passionate developer is gone. One cannot live on dreams and fantasies. We must understand that side of thie issue as well. There are jobs and lifes at stake; massive overhead costs; and the worries of failure. Therefore, we cannot expect developers and financial backers to take the risks they once did. WOW was/is a phenomenon and I don't think even Blizz's next MMO will topple the giant. Developers want that revenue and sub base like any business does. We cannot truly blame them for this; their a corporate entity like any other trying to make revenue and survive.

Again, this leaves us with the only viable option and that is to deal with what we have and try to enjoy it or move on. I do not think anyone is to blame in the scope of the things. Many gamers want more than what we have yet none of us are creating these financially overwhelming games to play. I can bitch all I want about what this dev or that dev needs to to do (and convince myself I am right) yet, I am not creating the game I feel the industry needs. I do not have the technological background for it nor do I have the cash flow. I am a smart buisness man and if I had the opportunity and the backing the financial backers would want the WOW model numbers good or bad in my opinion.

There is no easy solution for either side except to stop paying and playing. It is easy for all of us to get caught up in hat we think is right or wrong and we all want to be heard. I have friends who are in development and have worked on some of the top MMO's. Their life is insane with 15+ hour days and massive burnout. When a game goes bankrupt they are scrambling to try and feed their families like any other worker. We see the end results of these games yet we never get a good glimpse of the time, money, and effort involved.

Sorry for the diatribe and I'll shut my piehole now :)

Since my ending days of FFXI  (end of 2004) years ago there hasn't been a single mmo that has kept me subbed for more than 2 months except for WOW. They all either was just plain horrible or a copy cat of what has been done before. Lotro,WAR,AOC and all f2p mmos since my ending days of FFXI pretty much all fail. Sometimes I ask myself why am I even a pc gamer these days when pretty much the mmo market is pretty bad right now.

Everything is a wait and see. For one, Aion has been doing great interantionally and is heading to the US/EU markets soon. I also like Champions Online to be hopeful as well. The Old Republic from Bioware may seem promising but we have no idea when it will be released. Arenanet's Guild Wars 2 has no release date and they have yet to even give is solid info on the game. Blizzard has a new mmo on the way but noone knows what it is or when. I know alot of gamers are eagerly awaiting on atleast one of these mmos but as they say, patience is a virtue.

Whether anyone wants to agree or not, the OP is dead on right. I too am on an MMO hiatus, going on my 5th or 6th month now.

These games have not been evolving, although we are seeing some interesting things coming out of the small dev houses now. Those of us who have been around long enough know exactly where this genre was headed before the likes of WoW came along and attracted the masses, feel cheated by the current gaming experience. These worlds are not coming alive like we were promised. When was the last time you played an MMO that surprised you with the details?

Let me be clear here, while I hope I never, ever play a handholding game like WoW again, I did play a hunter through to 70 before I quit, and I had a fun time getting there.  After 70, the game offered nothing for me.  I'm not blaming WoW for the changes to the industry, but I do blame all the games that came out since, and copied WoW's gameplay model.  These companies offer a little superficial innovation over WoW, but that's about it.  Many people who play one of these clones quickly get bored and leave. It has nothing to do with being a jaded MMO player, because if true innovation was happening in the genre, it would be hard to become jaded.

I expect more from these games. The current crop is nothing much more than a bunch of treadmills designed to keep you paying.  Most of these devs have zero interest in how much fun you are having, or how much adventure you are experiencing.  It's all about getting you hooked in and paying the subs. MMO's of today seem to be tapping into that addictive quality of Las Vegas electronic gambling machines who's job is to ruthlessly lead you on just enough to keep your playing until your money is gone. They don't care if you have fun, they just want to hook you, and they have figured how.

Now that I have taken a nice long break which probably won't end until Fallen Earth comes out, I have realized that the only saving grace for this genre will be small, niche games.  We, as gamers, should be supporting the small dev houses and games such as Darkfall, Earthrise, EVE, etc.  They may be our only hope for real MMO gaming.

As a long time lurker @ MMORPG, I have never felt a more compelling reason to post until now. Gaming in general (especially the MMO's) has certainly taken a turn for the worst over the last few years.

We often read about games with visionary concepts that capture our attention, but due to corporate deadlines and over eager publishers looking to force this crap out the door 9 times out of 10 these features never enter the game and it becuase more of the same tripe we have been playing only with watered down vanilla features. Think about when you read about a game that really got you excited... Whether it was a sequel to a game you already knew and loved or something fresh... Now think of how you felt after it actually released...

WOW is a machine... and it offers it's players a slow morphine drip that they keep going back for... I used to be an avid WOW player as I am sure a lot of the people here are/were but after a while the game just lost it for me... all challenges were gone and the game was super EZ mode and Safe mode.

Korea/China keeps vomiting out all this F2P crap that has caused all sorts of havoc on the marketplace.... they are the silent killer... I mean the games just suck... I am sorry to hurt your feelings if you like this crap but come on now... (and yes I played Runes of Magic which is probably the least sucky of the bunch) I would rahter pay $100/ month for a good game... a REALLY good game than this free 2 play awfulness. People see a F2P game and see very often pretty graphics but the games is like an M&M with out the chocolately center... just a hollow empty shell with harly any content yet players hold every other game up to the graphical standard etc which should be the least important thing.

What I have seen happening is a revolution of sorts... I think a lot of people have gotten so sick of these supposed mainstream AAA failures, and companies have pulled back the reigns on the inherent risk of spending millions of dollars just to suck... It's like the latest batch of MMO's are like a f'n Kevin Costner movie... <think Waterworld, the Postman, etc> they cost a FORTUNE, they sound like they may be good but then you just realized you sat around for 3 hours of WTF... NOW you start seeing some new game houses forming and the resurgance of indy developers that can now self distribute and publish digitally, long lost are the days where you actually go into a gamestop (have you been in one recently and seen the PC game section?) to buy PC games... I have to appluad companies like Adventurine for creating Darkfall and Quest Online for Alganon (Alganon has a great story in itself) and several of the other companies that are starting to think outside the box and cherry pick the best of features of the mainstream games and make them better.

Take a game like Alganon... This is being head up by David Allen who if the name is not familiar was the original devloper of Horizons... David was basically kicked out of Horizons because he wanted to delay the game due to it not being the vision of what he imagined...  If you go even further back and look at David's games he made two fantiaticly intense singleplayer and lan games called Mordor: depths of dejenol and Demise. Cheezy graphics but 110% immersive. This is what I would expect of his latest title Alganon... I just hope to not be disappointed.

I hope to see games, I mean real gamers here, show support for the resurgance of indy games and developers out there and while the graphics may not be that of a AAA game it's it the immersion that we all seek? Where we actually give a damn about the characters we play and not just "color by numbers"

The next wave should certainly be an interesting one... Failures like Age of Conan (failures by the expectations of the developers) and Warhammer (which i currently dabble in) and Tabula Rasa are EXACTLY what this industry needed! The games that we see being developed now are going to need to re-evaluate how they launch and the content they have at launch... They can no longer plan "launch promised" features in a 6 month development cycle just to bang it out the door... The modern voracious gamer will chew through the content in weeks if not days only to find their delicate ADHD minds going back to the comfort of the slow morphine drip that is WOW once again...

I mostly agree. And Is worst than this guy comment. 

I'll make this short... Some of you say "They only want our money and they don't have an intrest in our entertainment" Well, game is bussines and they try to make it profitable. On the other hand, if you pay a sub they are convinced that you are having fun... And why they should be changing something? If you dont enjoy a game why the hell you should pay for it?

Originally posted by albers

I'll make this short... Some of you say "They only want our money and they don't have an intrest in our entertainment" Well, game is bussines and they try to make it profitable. On the other hand, if you pay a sub they are convinced that you are having fun... And why they should be changing something? If you dont enjoy a game why the hell you should pay for it?

The difference is seen in the details and the quality of the gaming experience.  The large game dev houses are cranking out games with the same lack of care that the large music publishers are cranking out crappy music.  We all realize here that ONE of the goals should be making money, since this is a business.  However, it should not be the ONLY goal, forsaking quality, customer satisfaction. and innovation.  What ever happened to wanting to build a better product or service?

Yes, there are idiots out there who will buy anything, but there are also people like me who will not pay these game companies one penny for the crap being sold these days.  That means there is room for smaller, nich mmos to make money and grow a successful and hardcore subscriber base in the same way EVE has.  Eve's subscriber numbers are nothing in the big scheme of business, but ask the people at CCP if they are making money while turning out a super-high quality product.  Eve isn't my kind of game, but I applaud them for what they have done, and I can only hope other small dev houses follow suit.

Originally posted by TdogSkal

I agree with the OP.  I am only 26 but I started MMO gaming back in EQ in 1999.  I enjoyed my time in EQ1 and since then have been game hopping trying to find another game that I enjoy like I did EQ.

I am sick of hearing that EQ forced you to group, that simply is not true, sure grouping was a major part of the game but people could solo just fine.  Sure some classes were better at soloing then others but so what?

I am sick of doing pointless quests, I am done with quest grinding games.  I tried WAR and I quit playing over a month ago, got sick of questings so I decided to level only on PvP but it is nothing but a zerg fest and that got boring.  Now I don't play any MMOs.

I have hope for a few MMo games but not holding my breath.  I just want a developer to make a game for us old school gamers that want to feel apart of the world again.  That want to feel they earned what they got.  I want a game that makes me use my brain again. 

These new games hold your hand from start to finish, they never make you think.

I think the main problem here is that we have clashing concepts now.  MMO's were originally created for those DnD gamers who didn't want to use pencil and paper anymore.  They were created for a very small portion of the population, which is why they were not very popular back in the day.  I myself played EQ and SWG religiously, but then life came along.  I went to college, I got a degree, I got a job and more importantly I am getting a family.  These games were HUGE time sinks that the casual gamer can not dedicate time to and have any fun.  I loved these games, but I just can't dedicate time to them anymore.  So what we have is what the hardcore gamers want and what the casual gamers want.  It is extremely difficult to find a middle ground between the two.  Many casual gamers are OK with not being the best at the game because you can't play 8+ hours a day, but none of us like having absolutely no chance vs. such a person b/c he's geared out.  I think that's what attracts me to games like Counter-Strike and L4D.  Skill based games where the only benefit to playing the game more is that you have a better grasp on strategies.  I have always wanted a game that is more life like in combat in that if you shoot someone with an arrow through the eye, then no amount of equipment would keep you from dying.  I just don't think we are at a place technologically to be able to come to this middle ground.

Originally posted by albers

I'll make this short... Some of you say "They only want our money and they don't have an intrest in our entertainment" Well, game is bussines and they try to make it profitable. On the other hand, if you pay a sub they are convinced that you are having fun... And why they should be changing something? If you dont enjoy a game why the hell you should pay for it?

...because apparently everyone is brainwashed and pays to play games that they don't like, while brilliant gems don't get played for some strange reason.   People spend month after month paying a fee to play bad games.  Its all because of an advertisment or a friend forcing them to play.  People don't eat food they hate.  They dont' read books multiple times they hate.  They don't go to movies OVER and OVER again that they hate.  But they plays MMOs they hate.  They play MMOs that really suck and ignore MMOs that are really great.  Its always been that way=)

Great post (even with a little bit of rant)! =P

I haven't been playing MMO's for too long ( I think my first was CoH in 2004) but I did play MUD's and D&D when I was younger.

Dave Arneson (D&D co-creator) recently died and he was quoted as saying "Dice and maps and figures and complicated rule books are a crutch. The game doesn't need them — but the market does", which I think kind of echoes some of the sentiment of the OP.

I've left WoW and begun playing EvE Online and I'm enjoying it quite a bit. After reading the OP's comments I think the reason I'm enjoying it is because, to a certain extent, it has remained a niche game and thus is immune to the jaws of the marketing monster.

I'm not a economics or business whiz but what I do know is that for me, in the end, WoW began to feel like hanging around in the arcade with a bunch of kids, playing the same level over and over again trying to beat the high score - instead of being immersed in a lush and creative game world like many of the table-top RPG's of old.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Sure, OP can say thats because no one else is there, but we know that's not true. You can still play EQ 1 and find many other folks playing, so OP could go back if he wanted to.  But he doesn't want to. 

He wants a new game built after the old model, (so do I ) but realistically, not likely to happen, nor would many players accept it if it did. (much criticism was directed at VG because they incorportated old school concepts like death penalties, corpse runs and long travel times)

Face it, most of us who've been playing these games have come to appreciate some of the modern conveniences, and we're not likely to go back.

 

Actually, Mortal online are aiming to make a new game after the old model, if it will work or not is anybodys guess. It is hard to go back to older times.

But Im not happy where MMOs are going either, it feels like very little have happened for the last 5 or even 10 years. The genre must reinvent itself again to continue to be fun.

My hopes are to CCP/Whitewolf and Bioware right now. The mix of an experienced pen and paper company and a experienced MMO company should inject some fresh blood. As for Bioware, they have always done their own thing and are not likely to copy from that Wow/EQ rosetta stone.

One thing is certain, we don't neeed another 10 years of games close to EQ (and Meridian 59 for that matter, why do everyone always forget about it? I played it). The genre feels dryer now than FPS games just before Half-life showed up and changed things.

ive enjoyed reading the responses.......thank you.

---

Originally posted by Rekindle

 

Back then it was all about freedom.  I could go to these places and risk death and the reward was exploration.  I remember how emmersive it was to be in the basement of unrest and hearing the footsteps of the ghouls on the floor above.  I remember the being charmed in TOFS and running around training the mobs and feeling something from the experience.  I for one thought the Pok books were really, really cool.  I was a relative latecomer to EQ1 but having those books where I could "fly" up to EQ's version of Olympus and then re-decend back down to material planes.....and The Grey....what a place.  Despite the name I rarely did quests in EQ and UO had none back in the day.  Task driven content is something new and something many of you seem to enjoy.  I for one hate being dragged by the nose around the world.
 

---

This would be one of my chief complaints about the (major Western) MMORPG releases of the last several years-- I am not interested in going through the game on a conveyor belt of questing. I don't mind questing for particular items, but I want to choose whether I participate or even NOTICE the official storyline. I am more interested in making my own stories than in experiencing a canned story.

I was only vaguely aware of EQ having any kind of storyline until PoP, I think. Before that, there was lore (Dwarves hate dark elves, the combine built all these strange spires, and, oh, look at this new place we discovered-- It's Kunark/Velious/the moon!) that you could use or ignore. There was and is so much content that is just there to pick and choose from that there were times that the most difficult part of your gaming day would be deciding what to do. There were no "must do" quests, and it was perfectly possible to play through to the end game without really doing very many (or maybe any) quests at all.

Also, because faction really mattered, it mattered what class and race you picked. Your early game experience was not necessarily the same if you chose a gnome wizard or a dark elf shadow knight-- in many games now, including (The New) EQ, you're going to do exactly the same things at exactly the same levels, no matter what you choose to play. You might do something different for 5 or 10 levels, but you get on that conveyor belt sooner or later, along with everyone else your level. I'm not a fan of that.

In any case, I'd like to wish the OP (Rekindle) good luck in the future, with or without MMOs.

I think level caps limit mmo's in an unmeasurable ammount.

If the new SE MMO caves into the WoW'ish style Ill be throwing in the towel as well. But for the moment I still have a few rounds left in me. Otherwise I could always learn Japanese and play the good MMO's that have no wow infleuence.

I'm in my 40s and started with EverQuest in 1999 like a bunch of folks. I've played a whole raft of different MMOs, tried many more and have been away from the genre for a year or so. My reason for not playing these days is that the games haven't changed.

Our first MMO brought so much novelty into our gaming. So many new experiences, from creating our first character to interacting with our first NPC to moving around in our first zone, our first kill, our first level, death, corpse run, group, quest, etc, etc, etc.

But we've done all those things. They are commonplace gaming experiences. Repackaging them in a different fiction or upgraded graphics doesn't change the fundamental experience. Getting a quest to kill NPCs to get a quest item to return to the quest-giver is the same no matter how you dress it up.

MMOs need to produce fundamentally new types of experiences for players. When that is done, players will feel that the games are a novel experience again, harkening back to the first one or two that we played.

It may not take ray traced graphics, physics simulations or live events. It may be a problem of figuring out how to get players to interact more intimately. For example, many people don't like to use voice because it's an intimate thing to do and strangers are listening. If a game solved the problem of finding like-minded players, perhaps MMO gaming would find its second wind.